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3 down backers (1 Viewer)

N

nortobc

Footballguy
Can we get a thread started with 3 down LBers? I started one last season and it seemed to help out. I haven't done as much research as past years due to time constraints, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong, which I know I am wrong on some of these. A few are educated guesses.

EDITED: I will be editing this post to reflect the most up to date changes in depth charts. A * by the players name means that he does not start at LB, meaning he is only a nickel LB. "PR" by a guys name means he is the pass rusher on 3rd down. Question mark means I am not sure and need further analysis.

NFC

North

Bears - Urlacher, Briggs

Vikings - Henderson, Harris

Packers - Barnett, Hawk

Lions - Bailey, Simms

East

Cowboys - (3-4) PR-Ware, James, Carpenter?

Redskins - Marshall, Washington

Giants - Pierce, Arrington

Eagles - *Barber, *Dawkins(DB), McCoy?

South

Saints - Fujita, Simaneau?

Panthers - Morgan, Davis

Falcons - Brookings, *Williams

Bucs - Brooks, Quarles

West

49ers - (3-4) PR-Lawson, Ulbrich, Smith

Seahawks - PR-Peterson, Tatupa, Hill

Cardinals - Darling, Hayes, (Dansby is out currently)

Rams - Witherspoon, Pisa

AFC

North

Steelers - (3-4) PR-Porter, PR-Haggans, Farrior, *Polamalu

Browns - (3-4) PR-McGinest?, Davis, Wimbley

Bengals - (3-4) PR-Pollock, Simmons, Johnson, Thurman(when playing),

Ravens - Lewis, Thomas

East

Bills - Fletcher, Crowell

Patriots - Colvin, Vrabel

Jets - (3-4) PR-Thomas, Barton, Vilma

Dolphins - Thomas, Crowder?, Spragan?

South

Texans - Ryans, Greenwood

Colts - Bracket, June

Titans - Bulluck, Thornton

Jags - Peterson, Smith

West

Chargers - (3-4) PR-Merriman, Edwards, Phillips?

Broncos - Wilson, Gold

Chiefs - Johnson, Mitchell

Raiders - Morrison, Howard

 
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That is a really good list. I saw no mistakes, save for no way Darling plays all three downs (much less keeps the MLB job over Hayes IMHO) ...

 
Great idea. Added some thoughts.

nortobc said:
Can we get a thread started with 3 down LBers? I started one last season and it seemed to help out. I haven't done as much research as past years due to time constraints, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong, which I know I am wrong on some of these. A few are educated guesses.

NFC

North

Bears - Urlacher, Briggs

Vikings - Henderson, Harris

Packers - Barnett, Hawk

Lions - Bailey, Simms

East

Cowboys - Ware, James

(There will be one other three down backer in this defense, likely either Ayodele or Carpenter)

Redskins - Marshall, Washington

Giants - Pierce, Arrington

Eagles - Jones, McCoy

(The Eagles have said that McCoy will have to be a three down guy to start, but in the first preseason games it was Simoneau and Barber, meaning there are no three down backers in Philly. It wouldn't be surprising to see Jones and McCoy become those guys though once Barber gets hurt and McCoy proves himself ready.)

South

Saints - Scott (DB), Fujita

Panthers - Morgan, Davis

Falcons - Brooking, Williams

Bucs - Brooks, Quarles

West

49ers - Ulbrich, Smith

(Lawson will be a three down guy, too.

Seahawks - Peterson, Tatupu

(Don't be shocked to see a lot of Hill in nickel packages)

Cardinals - Dansby, Darling

Rams - Witherspoon, Pisa

AFC

North

Steelers - Porter, Foote

(And Farrior)

Browns - Brown, Wimbley

(All these 3-4 defenses will have three nickel backers most likely. Granted, one of them will be a pass rusher. I assume you mean Andra Davis here and McGinest will be on the field too.)

Bengals - Simmons, Thurman (when playing), Johnson

(Pollack will be on the field in some capacity in the nickel)

Ravens - Lewis, Scott

(Like Pollack, Adalius Thomas will be on the field in the nickel. I'm not certain about Scott.)

East

Bills - Fletcher, Spikes

Patriots - Bruschi, Vrabel

(Rosie Colvin will play in the nickel. Beisel may replace Bruschi in a 3-4 set, but it'd probably be Vrabel/Colvin in the 4-3)

Jets - Barton, Vilma

(And Bryan Thomas)

Dolphins - Thomas, Crowder

South

Texans - Ryans, Greenwood

Colts - Brackett, June

Titans - Bulluck, Thornton

Jags - Peterson, Smith

West

Chargers - Merriman, Edwards

(Most likely Steve Foley as well)

Broncos - Wilson, Williams

(It'll be Ian Gold, not DJ Williams)

Chiefs - Johnson, Mitchell

Raiders - Morrison, Williams

(Looked like Morrison and Howard in the first couple preseason games)
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Very nice list. Nearly all of the 3-4 teams will have more than two linebackers in nickel packages -- likely two in coverage and one in pass rush. And a few of these situations aren't solid yet (eg Philly and Oakland). Thanks for putting this together.

 
You all sure about Buffalo - Crowell's seems to have been moved to the WLB in the Cover2 and with Spikes getting older/hobbled...would think that situation is up in the air at best

 
Beaumont said:
That is a really good list. I saw no mistakes, save for no way Darling plays all three downs (much less keeps the MLB job over Hayes IMHO) ...
Click to expand...
I guess the title should be nickel package LBs, not 3 down LBs. Darling and D. Williams seem like the only 2 LBs who do not start but play in the nickel package.Thanks for the input Jene. I'm sure your assessment is better than mine as I was just going on instinct. Is Lawson a starting OLB? My FFL website has him listed as a DL.
 
nortobc said:
Beaumont said:
That is a really good list. I saw no mistakes, save for no way Darling plays all three downs (much less keeps the MLB job over Hayes IMHO) ...
Click to expand...
I guess the title should be nickel package LBs, not 3 down LBs. Darling and D. Williams seem like the only 2 LBs who do not start but play in the nickel package.Thanks for the input Jene. I'm sure your assessment is better than mine as I was just going on instinct. Is Lawson a starting OLB? My FFL website has him listed as a DL.
Click to expand...
Lawson will be a 3-4 OLB. He should be changed in the database soon.And I agree that the Buffalo situation is still TBD. Spikes and Fletcher are the best two backers on the team when healthy. They'll be the nickel backers in all likelihood no matter where they line up on running downs.
 
danskins said:
llamar marshall is the man
Click to expand...
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FYI Hayes is practicing with the 1st team and appears to be the odds-on starter at MLB (unknown if 3-down MLB) ...

Thread from Cards Forum

Hayes shows Cards he’s ready to play

By Matt Simpson, Tribune

August 14, 2006

It would’ve been easy to forget about Cardinals linebacker Gerald Hayes during his year off from football.

A 2003 third-round pick out of Pittsburgh, Hayes started just three games in his first two seasons before having his third campaign wiped out by a preseason knee injury.

But that was Hayes flying around and filling up the stat sheet during the Cardinals’ 21-13 preseason-opening win over the Pittsburgh Steelers Saturday afternoon. Hayes came off the bench in the second quarter to lead the team with seven tackles, force a fumble and intercept a pass from Shane Boyd.

Not bad considering it was Hayes’ first game action since last year’s preseason opener against the Cowboys.

“We were kind of spoonfeeding him to make sure all the parts were in place with his quickness back and his strength back and quite frankly he looked good,” linebackers coach Frank Bush said. “Physically he looked the part. There are some things we’ve got to work out but it’s just first-game stuff.”

The organization viewed Hayes as a rising star heading into last season. He was the team’s starting middle linebacker in the preseason opener, but he suffered a devastating left knee injury and never returned to the field.

The Cardinals initially believed the injury was minor and listed him as inactive for the first month of the season before finally placing him on injured reserve on Oct. 6. It turned out that he had not only damaged cartilage in the knee, but he had also torn his anterior cruciate ligament.

The injury was so severe that he wasn’t able to participate in offseason workouts and didn’t return to football until camp opened this month.

“It was frustrating, because I felt like last year was going to be my year,” Hayes said. “You get hurt and there’s nothing you can do. You just want to get back on the field.”

Now that he’s backed up a month of good practices with a solid game, the question is where he will fit into the team’s plans this fall.

Ten-year veteran James Darling stepped into Hayes’ starting role last year and posted his second consecutive 100-tackle season. However, Hayes, a big hitter who has nearly 10 pounds on Darling, is the kind of player the Cardinals’ coaching staff likes to stuff the middle with.

Darling started Saturday’s game, but Bush said that the team views Hayes as an incumbent starter returning from injury and that the competition for the middle linebacker job is open.

“He had a great season, and you can’t take that away from him,” Hayes said of Darling. “I didn’t expect to be handed the job. I haven’t proven anything. I just have to go out and compete and let the coaches make those decisions.”

 
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Thanks for this post, it is extremely helpful. I have been trying forever to find out where I can see the Nickel and Dime depth charts for each team. Do any of you guys know where I can find one?

 
eiad77 said:
Thanks for this post, it is extremely helpful. I have been trying forever to find out where I can see the Nickel and Dime depth charts for each team. Do any of you guys know where I can find one?
Click to expand...
The first post is the only full compilation of which I'm aware. Keep it bumped during the season and one of us will try to keep it updated with important changes.
 
Modified Seattle's LBs.

Did anybody watch the Cardinals game Saturday night? If so, did Hayes start at MLB and who were the nickel LBs?

 
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nortobc said:
Modified Seattle's LBs.Did anybody watch the Cardinals game Saturday night? If so, did Hayes start at MLB and who were the nickel LBs?
Click to expand...
He did not start. I did not see the game, just the gamebook, so I cant tell who got the nickel time ...
 
This is a great list. Awesome way to find undervalued players ( and overvalued ).

Can someone take the time to explain to me the ramifications of the following:

a) 3 down backs--Is this simple clue as to finding out who is going to see more plays on the field ro si there more to it than that?

b) For Linebackers, esp. 3 down backs, do the 3-4 LB's get in on more big plays or is it the 4-3 backs. How about specifically OLBs? How does a 3-4 help/hurt OLB's?

c) I assume the "PR" denotation is a good thing, for fantasy points, right? That being said, can I safely downgrade Vilma and upgrade Lawson? Any thoughts on AJ Hawk?

 
a) 3 down backs--Is this simple clue as to finding out who is going to see more plays on the field ro si there more to it than that?

Yes.

b) For Linebackers, esp. 3 down backs, do the 3-4 LB's get in on more big plays or is it the 4-3 backs. How about specifically OLBs? How does a 3-4 help/hurt OLB's?

In general, 3-4 OLBs have good sack numbers, weak INT numbers, and weak tackle numbers compared to 4-3 OLBs. So, it depends on the weights assigned in your league. In a Zealots system with 1 for tackle, 3 for big play, 3-4 OLBs are largely unstartable.

 
Tick said:
a) 3 down backs--Is this simple clue as to finding out who is going to see more plays on the field ro si there more to it than that?

Yes.

b) For Linebackers, esp. 3 down backs, do the 3-4 LB's get in on more big plays or is it the 4-3 backs. How about specifically OLBs? How does a 3-4 help/hurt OLB's?

In general, 3-4 OLBs have good sack numbers, weak INT numbers, and weak tackle numbers compared to 4-3 OLBs. So, it depends on the weights assigned in your league. In a Zealots system with 1 for tackle, 3 for big play, 3-4 OLBs are largely unstartable.
Click to expand...
:goodposting: We care about the nickel personnel because with the ever increasing number of teams who run three receiver sets on any number of down/distance situations, sitting in the nickel defense is the difference between DJ Williams (who went from being an absolute stud as a "three down" WLB to a travashamockery as a "two down" SLB) and Marcus Washington (who is a near stud as a all-around three-down SLB). Against a team like the Colts, the opposing base defense may be the nickel.

Like the many variations of alignment within a 4-3 front, not all 3-4 OLB responsibilities are equal. As Tick said, the value of the player is completely dependent on your scoring system. In sack neutral leagues (sack = 3x solo tackle) a sack artist with little impact in run support or coverage like Joey Porter or Demarcus Ware (although he looked much, much, much improved tonight) is far worse than replacement level. Whereas an all-around player like Willie McGinest or Mike Vrabel may be worthy of a roster spot. And a transcendant player like Shawne Merriman (if you'll forgive the Magaw-ism) has a chance to be a stud in any format.

I'm pretty certain that PR is Henry's notation for punt returner.

Check out the Vilma thread for some discussion about his 06 and beyond prospects. I'm probably the biggest Lawson basher around. You'll never see a player like that on my roster in a standard scoring system. I might miss out on a Merriman once a decade but I'm not wasting a roster spot on a guy who would be considered a great success with 45 tackles, 9 sacks and no coverage stats. Okay, maybe that's a little harsh. But go back and look at Ware's stats last year. That kind of production, in addition to being inconsistent, just doesn't cut it in most leagues.

Some good discussion on AJ Hawk in a thread where we debated Hawk, Sims, and Greenway here.

 
Good stuff!! Explains alot... My LB assessments were always more intuitive. It's nice having you guys explain the logic to me. I usually just scour preseason games for LB's that seem like they are all over the field and fast. You'll often hear the announcers say something like, "So-and-so is all over the place tonight!"

Kawicka Mitchell fits that description, at least he did last game.. Last year I was keen on Adalius Thomas for the same reason.

Thanks!!

PS his PR label stands for third down "pass rusher"...

 
PR = pass rusher

3-down backers are great to have because they are always on the field. A player can't make plays if he is on the bench.

Did anybody catch who was playing on 3rd down for the Cowboys last night? If so, the list will be updated. I missed the game for work reasons.

 
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Bump.

I need help on the Cardinals situation. I currently have Dansby and Darling playing in the nickel. However, Darling just got demoted to 2nd string WLB and Dansby hasn't been in camp yet.

 
From most depth charts I've seen. They don't have D. Ryans starting in Houston. Not sure why.

Also check Crowder status for nickel in Miami. Looks to be in question as of the last preseason game.

 
brakeyawself said:
From most depth charts I've seen. They don't have D. Ryans starting in Houston. Not sure why.Also check Crowder status for nickel in Miami. Looks to be in question as of the last preseason game.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I am throwing a question mark by Crowder. :wall: Ourlads has Ryans starting at MLB.
 
nortobc said:
brakeyawself said:
From most depth charts I've seen. They don't have D. Ryans starting in Houston. Not sure why.

Also check Crowder status for nickel in Miami. Looks to be in question as of the last preseason game.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I am throwing a question mark by Crowder. :wall: Ourlads has Ryans starting at MLB.
Click to expand...
The Texan's site has Ryans starting at MLB and it's already been updated with Courtney Watson at #3 SLB.
 
pnewtonjr said:
nortobc said:
brakeyawself said:
From most depth charts I've seen. They don't have D. Ryans starting in Houston. Not sure why.

Also check Crowder status for nickel in Miami. Looks to be in question as of the last preseason game.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I am throwing a question mark by Crowder. :wall: Ourlads has Ryans starting at MLB.
Click to expand...
The Texan's site has Ryans starting at MLB and it's already been updated with Courtney Watson at #3 SLB.
Click to expand...
Just to remove any lingering doubt about our boy RyansLink

:banned:

 
after watching tonight's philly-pitt game... I agree it looks like Barber is the only LB in the nickel and all three normal down guys (Jones, Trottier and McCoy) are on the bench. So no 3 down LBs in philly.

Even at two downs, Trottier is still a solid #3 LB and should be near the top of the list of non-3 down LBs.

Farrior and Polamalu are looking like the nickel LBs in Pitt and Haggans/Porter do their 3-4 thing of end rushers on passing downs...

Added:

Also, Trent Cole comes in on passing downs for Philly to be an end PR. Moving Howard to tackle on passing downs... so possibly a slight bump down on Howard since he is an end on run downs and tackle on pass downs?

 
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I love the fact that I spotted him very early for one of the teams I act as DC for!

Enough patting myself on the back - just thought I'd give this great thread a bump for all fresh IDP-guys out there - in my early days I would have loved to come across info like this!

:goodposting:

(there wasn't a sign for great thread)

 
I am bumping this thread for updates. Can some of you run through this list and verify if it is correct?

Some of my questions are:

Ravens - B. Scott?

Saints - Shanle?

Chargers - who took Foley's spot?

Thanks.

 
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nortobc said:
I am bumping this thread for updates. Can some of you run through this list and verify if it is correct?

Some of my questions are:

Ravens - B. Scott?

Saints - Shanle?

Chargers - who took Foley's spot?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
Shaun Phillips I believe.
 
Simoneau is now on NOS, not PHI. Eagles are running what looks like a 4-1-6, but with Dawkins as the 2nd "LB". I think I saw McCoy in on a nickel or 2.

 
nortobc said:
I am bumping this thread for updates. Can some of you run through this list and verify if it is correct? Some of my questions are:Ravens - B. Scott?Saints - Shanle?Chargers - who took Foley's spot?Thanks.
Click to expand...
Another one is Carolina with Morgan, who stayed on the field with Davis after Morgan went down. This could be helpful if Morgan misses time.
 
The_Hunchback said:
nortobc said:
I am bumping this thread for updates. Can some of you run through this list and verify if it is correct? Some of my questions are:Ravens - B. Scott?Saints - Shanle?Chargers - who took Foley's spot?Thanks.
Click to expand...
Another one is Carolina with Morgan, who stayed on the field with Davis after Morgan went down. This could be helpful if Morgan misses time.
Click to expand...
This is a little confusing. I am guessing you mean Diggs?
 
nortobc said:
The_Hunchback said:
nortobc said:
I am bumping this thread for updates. Can some of you run through this list and verify if it is correct? Some of my questions are:Ravens - B. Scott?Saints - Shanle?Chargers - who took Foley's spot?Thanks.
Click to expand...
Another one is Carolina with Morgan, who stayed on the field with Davis after Morgan went down. This could be helpful if Morgan misses time.
Click to expand...
This is a little confusing. I am guessing you mean Diggs?
Click to expand...
Let me clarify. On your list you have Davis and Morgan as 3 down backers for Carolina. Morgan left the game with another injury. Who stayed on the field with Davis when the other team went 4 WR, or Carolina went to the nickle or whatever with only 2 LBs? If Morgan misses time, which I am assuming he will, then someone has to take his place. Does someone else become a 3 down LB or does this leave only Davis as the 3 down LB on the team?
 
nortobc said:
I am bumping this thread for updates. Can some of you run through this list and verify if it is correct? Some of my questions are:Ravens - B. Scott?Saints - Shanle?Chargers - who took Foley's spot?Thanks.
Click to expand...
IN both the preseason and Week 1, Fujita was the nickel & dime LB for NOS. He's on the field for all downs.Watching just a part of the NFL Network replay of the CLE-NOS game, I was thoroughly disappointed to see Fincher on the bench. The 3 LBs playing were Shanle, Fujita & Simoneau
 
The_Hunchback said:
nortobc said:
The_Hunchback said:
nortobc said:
I am bumping this thread for updates. Can some of you run through this list and verify if it is correct? Some of my questions are:Ravens - B. Scott?Saints - Shanle?Chargers - who took Foley's spot?Thanks.
Click to expand...
Another one is Carolina with Morgan, who stayed on the field with Davis after Morgan went down. This could be helpful if Morgan misses time.
Click to expand...
This is a little confusing. I am guessing you mean Diggs?
Click to expand...
Let me clarify. On your list you have Davis and Morgan as 3 down backers for Carolina. Morgan left the game with another injury. Who stayed on the field with Davis when the other team went 4 WR, or Carolina went to the nickle or whatever with only 2 LBs? If Morgan misses time, which I am assuming he will, then someone has to take his place. Does someone else become a 3 down LB or does this leave only Davis as the 3 down LB on the team?
Click to expand...
Yes, but I didn't see the game. I guess we need to see who will take Morgan's spot this week.
 
Barry Jive and The Uptown Five said:
nortobc said:
I am bumping this thread for updates. Can some of you run through this list and verify if it is correct? Some of my questions are:Ravens - B. Scott?Saints - Shanle?Chargers - who took Foley's spot?Thanks.
Click to expand...
IN both the preseason and Week 1, Fujita was the nickel & dime LB for NOS. He's on the field for all downs.Watching just a part of the NFL Network replay of the CLE-NOS game, I was thoroughly disappointed to see Fincher on the bench. The 3 LBs playing were Shanle, Fujita & Simoneau
Click to expand...
I have Fajita as one of the nickel guys, but who was the other nickel guy?
 
Tick said:
Who was in the Bills nickle before Spikes was injured?
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:shrug:But I got this stat line:Keith Ellison 3-tk 7-astHe's a rookie 6th round pick.ETA:(Rotoworld) Takeo Spikes says his hamstring injury sustained Sunday is "mild."Impact: He says he'll be back in action for Week 2. Rookie Keith Ellison moved into the lineup with Spikes out for final three quarters Sunday.
 
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The Gator said:
ETA:(Rotoworld) Takeo Spikes says his hamstring injury sustained Sunday is "mild."Impact: He says he'll be back in action for Week 2. Rookie Keith Ellison moved into the lineup with Spikes out for final three quarters Sunday.
Click to expand...
I believe Ellison moved to WLB and Crowell moved to SLB when Spikes got hurt.
 
Story link

Noted in a post above, Bryan Thomas is in at OLB for the Jets.

It appears from the story he will be used in multiple ways.

Since MFL has him listed as a DE I am wondering if he may represent some lb value at the DE position.

Any insight by anyone?

 
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