Vick's rushing attempts (1 Viewer)

Of Vick's 14 rushing attempts, how many were scrambles and how many were designed runs? Seems like a lot of rushes for just scrambles on pass plays. My assumption has been that the Falcons have tried to force Vick into a system he doesn't necessarily fit in. If they're now looking to design a lot of runs for him, maybe they've adjusted their philosophy on how to use him. It seems early in his career they called running plays for him then got away from that wanting him to sit in the pocket more. I've thought for a couple years now that Altanta needs an innovative new offense for Vick. They draft one of the game's greatest athletes and need to adjust accordingly. Why take him #1 overall and ask him to sit in the pocket?

Anyways, Atlanta homers, is there something new about the offense that might lead us to think double-digit carries could be the norm this season?

dgreen said:

Of Vick's 14 rushing attempts, how many were scrambles and how many were designed runs? Seems like a lot of rushes for just scrambles on pass plays. My assumption has been that the Falcons have tried to force Vick into a system he doesn't necessarily fit in. If they're now looking to design a lot of runs for him, maybe they've adjusted their philosophy on how to use him. It seems early in his career they called running plays for him then got away from that wanting him to sit in the pocket more. I've thought for a couple years now that Altanta needs an innovative new offense for Vick. They draft one of the game's greatest athletes and need to adjust accordingly. Why take him #1 overall and ask him to sit in the pocket?Anyways, Atlanta homers, is there something new about the offense that might lead us to think double-digit carries could be the norm this season?

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Not an ATL homer and I've not seen a full game, but during the highlights, you could see that the Falcons are running a "college" style delay option play in which Vick puts the ball in front of Dunn's stomach, then looks to see what the DL is doing. If they're pursuing toward the middle, he pulls the ball back out and heads toward that side of the field. If they're staying at home, he pushes the ball toward Dunn.ETA: I don't know how many of his rushes were this delay option vs. scrambles, but my perception is that this play was run multiple times during yesterday's game.

The Jerk said:

dgreen said:

Of Vick's 14 rushing attempts, how many were scrambles and how many were designed runs? Seems like a lot of rushes for just scrambles on pass plays. My assumption has been that the Falcons have tried to force Vick into a system he doesn't necessarily fit in. If they're now looking to design a lot of runs for him, maybe they've adjusted their philosophy on how to use him. It seems early in his career they called running plays for him then got away from that wanting him to sit in the pocket more. I've thought for a couple years now that Altanta needs an innovative new offense for Vick. They draft one of the game's greatest athletes and need to adjust accordingly. Why take him #1 overall and ask him to sit in the pocket?Anyways, Atlanta homers, is there something new about the offense that might lead us to think double-digit carries could be the norm this season?

Click to expand...

Not an ATL homer and I've not seen a full game, but during the highlights, you could see that the Falcons are running a "college" style delay option play in which Vick puts the ball in front of Dunn's stomach, then looks to see what the DL is doing. If they're pursuing toward the middle, he pulls the ball back out and heads toward that side of the field. If they're staying at home, he pushes the ball toward Dunn.ETA: I don't know how many of his rushes were this delay option vs. scrambles, but my perception is that this play was run multiple times during yesterday's game.

Click to expand...

I did watch this game, and you've (basically) got it correct (I think Vick keyed of what Brooks was doing; I could be mistaken, but I don't think Vick needs to worry about a defensive lineman catching him at the corner).That play worked all day long. Vick looked great and Dunn benefited as well. The Falcons may rush for 4000 yards this year.

kupcho1 said:

The Jerk said:

dgreen said:

Of Vick's 14 rushing attempts, how many were scrambles and how many were designed runs? Seems like a lot of rushes for just scrambles on pass plays. My assumption has been that the Falcons have tried to force Vick into a system he doesn't necessarily fit in. If they're now looking to design a lot of runs for him, maybe they've adjusted their philosophy on how to use him. It seems early in his career they called running plays for him then got away from that wanting him to sit in the pocket more. I've thought for a couple years now that Altanta needs an innovative new offense for Vick. They draft one of the game's greatest athletes and need to adjust accordingly. Why take him #1 overall and ask him to sit in the pocket?Anyways, Atlanta homers, is there something new about the offense that might lead us to think double-digit carries could be the norm this season?

Click to expand...

Not an ATL homer and I've not seen a full game, but during the highlights, you could see that the Falcons are running a "college" style delay option play in which Vick puts the ball in front of Dunn's stomach, then looks to see what the DL is doing. If they're pursuing toward the middle, he pulls the ball back out and heads toward that side of the field. If they're staying at home, he pushes the ball toward Dunn.ETA: I don't know how many of his rushes were this delay option vs. scrambles, but my perception is that this play was run multiple times during yesterday's game.

Click to expand...

I did watch this game, and you've (basically) got it correct (I think Vick keyed of what Brooks was doing; I could be mistaken, but I don't think Vick needs to worry about a defensive lineman catching him at the corner).That play worked all day long. Vick looked great and Dunn benefited as well. The Falcons may rush for 4000 yards this year.

Click to expand...

Thanks. I meant to state defensive "front" so as to include LBs.ETA: How many of Vick's runs (out of 14) were this option play? 7? 10?

Most of them were probably designed runs as the Falcons coaching staff talked with WVU coaches this off-season to learn how to use a QB like Vick correctly...

What's insane is that they stopped running it about half way through the 3rd quarter. Imagine if they had kept going. I also thought Vick did a nice job of hitting the sidelines and going down this game, kept him safe.

Atlanta is dangerous.

' said:

Most of them were probably designed runs as the Falcons coaching staff talked with WVU coaches this off-season to learn how to use a QB like Vick correctly...

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I can see the similarity in the play design to what White's doing in Morgantown. Didn't know they had actual conversations. Very interesting. And credit to the Falcons for not going big time and thinking they can't learn anything from a college coaching staff.

Comment from footballoutsiders.

"I think I recall hearing that Mora said he would look at the Texas offense after the Rose Bowl. He wasn’t kidding. They run a number of shotgun QB options where Vick reads the defense and either hands off to Dunn or pulls it out and runs around end, opposite the throw."

Click to expand...

Pretty fun to watch imo, as too many copy cat offenses are basically doing the same thing around the league.

The Jerk said:

kupcho1 said:

The Jerk said:

dgreen said:

Of Vick's 14 rushing attempts, how many were scrambles and how many were designed runs? Seems like a lot of rushes for just scrambles on pass plays. My assumption has been that the Falcons have tried to force Vick into a system he doesn't necessarily fit in. If they're now looking to design a lot of runs for him, maybe they've adjusted their philosophy on how to use him. It seems early in his career they called running plays for him then got away from that wanting him to sit in the pocket more. I've thought for a couple years now that Altanta needs an innovative new offense for Vick. They draft one of the game's greatest athletes and need to adjust accordingly. Why take him #1 overall and ask him to sit in the pocket?Anyways, Atlanta homers, is there something new about the offense that might lead us to think double-digit carries could be the norm this season?

Click to expand...

Not an ATL homer and I've not seen a full game, but during the highlights, you could see that the Falcons are running a "college" style delay option play in which Vick puts the ball in front of Dunn's stomach, then looks to see what the DL is doing. If they're pursuing toward the middle, he pulls the ball back out and heads toward that side of the field. If they're staying at home, he pushes the ball toward Dunn.ETA: I don't know how many of his rushes were this delay option vs. scrambles, but my perception is that this play was run multiple times during yesterday's game.

Click to expand...

I did watch this game, and you've (basically) got it correct (I think Vick keyed of what Brooks was doing; I could be mistaken, but I don't think Vick needs to worry about a defensive lineman catching him at the corner).That play worked all day long. Vick looked great and Dunn benefited as well. The Falcons may rush for 4000 yards this year.

Click to expand...

Thanks. I meant to state defensive "front" so as to include LBs.ETA: How many of Vick's runs (out of 14) were this option play? 7? 10?

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i saw the game. my guess would be about 5 or 6 were designed runs. a few more were bootlegs where there was the option to pass but vick had an easy 10 yards in front of him.

Thanks for the info so far.

So, is this something they installed for Tampa or something they may use against other teams? IIRC, Tampa has contained Vick better than anyone else.

Did they run this play in week one against Carolina?

One said:

What's insane is that they stopped running it about half way through the 3rd quarter. Imagine if they had kept going. I also thought Vick did a nice job of hitting the sidelines and going down this game, kept him safe.

Atlanta is dangerous.

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he's still getting hit way too much

joffer said:

One said:

What's insane is that they stopped running it about half way through the 3rd quarter. Imagine if they had kept going. I also thought Vick did a nice job of hitting the sidelines and going down this game, kept him safe.

Atlanta is dangerous.

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he's still getting hit way too much

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IMO, they can't worry too much about that. They have to stop worrying about the long-term success of Vick. They have to start using what they have now. Vick will never reach his full potential if the team obsesses over his health.

dgreen said:

joffer said:

One said:

What's insane is that they stopped running it about half way through the 3rd quarter. Imagine if they had kept going. I also thought Vick did a nice job of hitting the sidelines and going down this game, kept him safe.

Atlanta is dangerous.

Click to expand...

he's still getting hit way too much

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IMO, they can't worry too much about that. They have to stop worrying about the long-term success of Vick. They have to start using what they have now. Vick will never reach his full potential if the team obsesses over his health.

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i don't disagree, but i'm not talking about next year and beyond, i'm talking about lasting this season. as many times as Vick did manage to get down or out of bounds yesterday, he still took too many big hits. i wouldn't change the playcalling, i'd just be beating on him to get down sooner.

#@%&$!? said:

Comment from footballoutsiders.

"I think I recall hearing that Mora said he would look at the Texas offense after the Rose Bowl. He wasn’t kidding. They run a number of shotgun QB options where Vick reads the defense and either hands off to Dunn or pulls it out and runs around end, opposite the throw."

Click to expand...

Pretty fun to watch imo, as too many copy cat offenses are basically doing the same thing around the league.

Click to expand...

It was almost identical. I watched the Falcons game with a few die hard Longhorn fans...a few that are football coaches...and they picked up it up right away. I did not think something that rudimentary would cripple an NFL defense but it worked all day yesterday. He had a read, run/pass option on one half of the field on every play when that set was used. I would say over half of his runs came by design. I can recall two that were the result of a scramble...forced to run...but the rest were result of the option.

One said:

Atlanta is dangerous.

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"That's right, Iceman....Atlanta is dangerous"Sorry, that stupid movie seems like its on cable 24/7.....had to do it

The Falcons should use the Single Wing... I'm only half kidding.

Countdown to Fisher employing this with Young in Tennessee .... ?

Pretty good info here on some of the offensive changes.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/stor...&id=2591874

The Falcons should go 5 wide..send everybody deep, and just let Vick run for 20 and get out of bounds.

WhoDat said:

I can recall two that were the result of a scramble...forced to run...but the rest were result of the option.

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That's what I charted as well. Only 2 of Vick's 14 rushes were not designed.Especially worth noting was that his TD run from the 1, was most certainly a scripted / designed play.

Da Guru said:

The Falcons should go 5 wide..send everybody deep, and just let Vick run for 20 and get out of bounds.

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that's what I do on Madden, but even the cpu teams figure it out eventually. I couldn't believe how tampa kept getting burned by it though

I know there have been defensive changes...

BUT remember that TPA has historically really harassed Vick and he has had poor games against them and the Tampa-2.

I think they will be hard to stop IF he can be merely adequate passing the ball.

the thing is the dont even have to pass the ball right now

they are just running over teams the first two weeks, will it continue? who knows. As for Vick taking big hits, I think he takes bigger hits in the pocket trying to pass than he does when he scrambles. There was one play in particular yesterday when he got HAMMERED by a Bucs D-Lineman. I said WOW outloud when I saw it, couldnt believe he got up. Their line does a terrible job in pass protection in my opinion

WhoDat said:

#@%&$!? said:

Comment from footballoutsiders.

"I think I recall hearing that Mora said he would look at the Texas offense after the Rose Bowl. He wasn’t kidding. They run a number of shotgun QB options where Vick reads the defense and either hands off to Dunn or pulls it out and runs around end, opposite the throw."

Click to expand...

Pretty fun to watch imo, as too many copy cat offenses are basically doing the same thing around the league.

Click to expand...

It was almost identical. I watched the Falcons game with a few die hard Longhorn fans...a few that are football coaches...and they picked up it up right away. I did not think something that rudimentary would cripple an NFL defense but it worked all day yesterday. He had a read, run/pass option on one half of the field on every play when that set was used. I would say over half of his runs came by design. I can recall two that were the result of a scramble...forced to run...but the rest were result of the option.

Click to expand...

All I saw was highlights of the Zone Read Texas ran, and I had to chuckle. Wasn't this the offense that doomed VY as an NFL QB? As far as something so rudimentary crippling an NFL D, two things impressed me with what I saw. One, the blocking was outstanding. Two, Tampa Bay was not close to prepared for that offense. So, the question is will it work against a prepared D?

Vick gets hit harder in the pocket than he does when he scrambles. On these runs he just runs out to the sideline or gets down to avoid the hit. It was ridiculous seeing how the Falcons were running the same play over & over, picking up 20 yards each time and the Bucs couldn't do anything to stop it. They should incorporate a fake where Vick fakes running but stop right before the line of scrimmage and launch it over the top.

Chaos Commish said:

WhoDat said:

#@%&$!? said:

Comment from footballoutsiders.

"I think I recall hearing that Mora said he would look at the Texas offense after the Rose Bowl. He wasn’t kidding. They run a number of shotgun QB options where Vick reads the defense and either hands off to Dunn or pulls it out and runs around end, opposite the throw."

Click to expand...

Pretty fun to watch imo, as too many copy cat offenses are basically doing the same thing around the league.

Click to expand...

It was almost identical. I watched the Falcons game with a few die hard Longhorn fans...a few that are football coaches...and they picked up it up right away. I did not think something that rudimentary would cripple an NFL defense but it worked all day yesterday. He had a read, run/pass option on one half of the field on every play when that set was used. I would say over half of his runs came by design. I can recall two that were the result of a scramble...forced to run...but the rest were result of the option.

Click to expand...

All I saw was highlights of the Zone Read Texas ran, and I had to chuckle. Wasn't this the offense that doomed VY as an NFL QB? As far as something so rudimentary crippling an NFL D, two things impressed me with what I saw. One, the blocking was outstanding. Two, Tampa Bay was not close to prepared for that offense. So, the question is will it work against a prepared D?

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Less is more, right? I had to laugh too because you knew what was coming and Vick continued to do his thing. Would that offense work for every team in the NFL? Absolutely not.

Could a team that is prepared do better? Sure but, now, you have them on their heels come Sunday before a snap. You just changed their pre-week routine and gave them a second offensive package to prepare for in a short period of time.

Can the Falcons with their player pesonnel on offense give people fits every week with that package? Yes, and even against a team that knows it is coming.

They ran a few sets against the Panthers the previous week but nothing like they did yesterday. As you said, the blocking was great. Tampa was not prepared but in terms of defensive team speed and experience you would think or hope adjustments could be made to slow it down or stop it.

I'd say you see this every week moving forward.

Shlon said:

Vick gets hit harder in the pocket than he does when he scrambles. On these runs he just runs out to the sideline or gets down to avoid the hit. It was ridiculous seeing how the Falcons were running the same play over & over, picking up 20 yards each time and the Bucs couldn't do anything to stop it. They should incorporate a fake where Vick fakes running but stop right before the line of scrimmage and launch it over the top.

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1. I agree, I was watching the game on Sunday Ticket, and he didn't get hit big out of the pocket. There were a few times he got killed in the pocket. He's going out of bounds and going down taking only glancing shots. 2. No one thought the option could work in the NFL. The reason it has is Vick is athletically superior to any other QB to ever play the game. Also he was very efficient as a passer, enough so, to keep the defense from crowding the line.

3. I then turned it over to the Chargers/Titans game, and got to see Vince Young. He is no where near the athlete or runner that Michael Vick is.

Atlanta Running Zone Read

They're mostly designed runs...out of a play called the Zone Read

Funny...when Vince Young used to run the Zone Read at Texas, many fans and many "analysts" couldn't tell that he wasn't just scrambling, or "taking off running". He was actually running the Zone Read, a shotgun running play where he'd put the ball into the belly of the back, freezing the D, then read the DE. If the DE came down the line, he'd give the ball away. If the DE stayed home, Young would keep it. It was a "one read" play. Mort got ahold of this tidbit and said Texas was running a "one read" offense. dumb###. I guess Mort equates a single running play with an entire offense.

Now, the Falcons have (at least for now) successfully incorporated the zone read into their running repertoire, and the same questions are coming up all over again.

' said:

Most of them were probably designed runs as the Falcons coaching staff talked with WVU coaches this off-season to learn how to use a QB like Vick correctly...

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They talked extensively with Texas coaches about how they used Young on the ZR. If Vick gets comfortable with this play, and learns to get down or OB a little more, he could become lethal. The great thing about the Zone Read and Vick is that it will get him out into open space much more than before. If defenses scheme to take this away, then they'll be giving up a lot somewhere else. Will Vick be able to take advantage? We'll see. With Texas last year, defenses were forced to pick their poison.

So, is this something they installed for Tampa or something they may use against other teams? IIRC, Tampa has contained Vick better than anyone else.

Did they run this play in week one against Carolina?

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Yes. They ran it against Carolina.

QUOTE(#@%&$!? @ Sep 18 2006, 03:34 PM)

Comment from footballoutsiders.

QUOTE

"I think I recall hearing that Mora said he would look at the Texas offense after the Rose Bowl. He wasn’t kidding. They run a number of shotgun QB options where Vick reads the defense and either hands off to Dunn or pulls it out and runs around end, opposite the throw."

Pretty fun to watch imo, as too many copy cat offenses are basically doing the same thing around the league.

It was almost identical. I watched the Falcons game with a few die hard Longhorn fans...a few that are football coaches...and they picked up it up right away. I did not think something that rudimentary would cripple an NFL defense but it worked all day yesterday.

He had a read, run/pass option on one half of the field on every play when that set was used. I would say over half of his runs came by design. I can recall two that were the result of a scramble...forced to run...but the rest were result of the option.

Click to expand...

Yep. Texas fans picked up on it right away and have been talking a lot about it. It's definitely the Zone Read.

Countdown to Fisher employing this with Young in Tennessee .... ?

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Since Vince Young has run this play better than anyone...ever...I don't see why he wouldn't consider using it at least on a limited basis. Maybe they have and I just didn't catch it. We don't get the Titans down here.

Shiver44 said:

Shlon said:

Vick gets hit harder in the pocket than he does when he scrambles. On these runs he just runs out to the sideline or gets down to avoid the hit. It was ridiculous seeing how the Falcons were running the same play over & over, picking up 20 yards each time and the Bucs couldn't do anything to stop it. They should incorporate a fake where Vick fakes running but stop right before the line of scrimmage and launch it over the top.

Click to expand...

1. I agree, I was watching the game on Sunday Ticket, and he didn't get hit big out of the pocket. There were a few times he got killed in the pocket. He's going out of bounds and going down taking only glancing shots. 2. No one thought the option could work in the NFL. The reason it has is Vick is athletically superior to any other QB to ever play the game. Also he was very efficient as a passer, enough so, to keep the defense from crowding the line.

3. I then turned it over to the Chargers/Titans game, and got to see Vince Young. He is no where near the athlete or runner that Michael Vick is.

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On #1...Agree absolutely. It's that way with Vick, just as it was with Young in '05 at Texas. We never worried about him getting hit hard while running, 'cause he just didn't. We worried about the shots he might take in the pocket on late hits, etc.On #2...Mort said the Zone Read could never work in the NFL.

On #3...Eh...the Chargers are much younger and faster than the aging Bucs. They're scary. Not to take anything away from the Falcons, though. They've been dominant running the ball, as I noted in my thread linked above. You just can't compare the Titans and Falcons' offenses. But give Young a decent OL and let him also run some Zone Read, and I think you might say he's at least close to Vick...but different. Not as quick off the line, but very fast. Much bigger, taller, more durable, and possessing incredible vision. Tacklers bounce off him like no qb I've ever seen. Can run through LBs (not that we want him to) and away from DBs. I think they'd be very similar in terms of production in the zone read, but we may never know. Remember, he was a 3000 yard passer, yet was still a 1000 yard rusher and the leading rusher on a NC team with a great OL and a stable of outstanding rbs.

This should really open up the vertical passing game for Mike- which could be interesting because he has a cannon arm. It is only a matter of time before they better incorporate some deep playaction. Also, if defenses key in on it, and Vick can pull the defense left- there will be a lot of space open on the right to go back to Dunn in the flat. Vick might finally live up to the potential.

Ilov80s said:

This should really open up the vertical passing game for Mike- which could be interesting because he has a cannon arm. It is only a matter of time before they better incorporate some deep playaction. Also, if defenses key in on it, and Vick can pull the defense left- there will be a lot of space open on the right to go back to Dunn in the flat. Vick might finally live up to the potential.

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If they keep running the Zone Read, or any running play, with the success they're having right now, there'll soon be plenty of vertical stuff ripe for the picking.

What's wrong with this picture?

NFL League Leaders - Rushing yards

Rk Player Pos Tm RuYds

1 Warrick Dunn RB ATL 266

2 Rudi Johnson RB CIN 241

3 Steven Jackson RB STL 224

4 Frank Gore RB SF 214

5 LaDainian Tomlinson RB SD 202

6 Chester Taylor RB MIN 201

7 Larry Johnson RB KC 194

8 Michael Turner RB SD 175

9 Michael Vick QB ATL 175

10 Tatum Bell RB DEN 172

David Yudkin said:

What's wrong with this picture?NFL League Leaders - Rushing yards Rk Player Pos Tm RuYds 1 Warrick Dunn RB ATL 266 2 Rudi Johnson RB CIN 241 3 Steven Jackson RB STL 224 4 Frank Gore RB SF 214 5 LaDainian Tomlinson RB SD 202 6 Chester Taylor RB MIN 201 7 Larry Johnson RB KC 194 8 Michael Turner RB SD 175 9 Michael Vick QB ATL 175 10 Tatum Bell RB DEN 172

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There are 2 guys from the same team in it? TWICE?!!

David Yudkin said:

What's wrong with this picture?

NFL League Leaders - Rushing yards

Rk Player Pos Tm RuYds

1 Warrick Dunn RB ATL 266

2 Rudi Johnson RB CIN 241

3 Steven Jackson RB STL 224

4 Frank Gore RB SF 214

5 LaDainian Tomlinson RB SD 202

6 Chester Taylor RB MIN 201

7 Larry Johnson RB KC 194

8 Michael Turner RB SD 175

9 Michael Vick QB ATL 175

10 Tatum Bell RB DEN 172

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There's a lot of starting RB's who wish they had Vick's rushing numbers?

David Yudkin said:

What's wrong with this picture?NFL League Leaders - Rushing yards Rk Player Pos Tm RuYds 1 Warrick Dunn RB ATL 266 2 Rudi Johnson RB CIN 241 3 Steven Jackson RB STL 224 4 Frank Gore RB SF 214 5 LaDainian Tomlinson RB SD 202 6 Chester Taylor RB MIN 201 7 Larry Johnson RB KC 194 8 Michael Turner RB SD 175 9 Michael Vick QB ATL 175 10 Tatum Bell RB DEN 172

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Nothing... Vick has three less rush yards than Michael Turner, just like I projected.

I was not being LITERAL in that there was something wrong with that list . . . but at this pace Vick is on track for 1400 rushing yards. I highly doubt we will see a QB in the Top 10 in rushing yards, pretty much ever going forward. Cunningham did it once in 1990, but given how prolific RB are in their rushing totals nowadays, I don't think we'll see it happen again.

Since Vince Young has run this play better than anyone...ever...I don't see why he wouldn't consider using it at least on a limited basis. Maybe they have and I just didn't catch it. We don't get the Titans down here.

hairy scotsman, they sprinted Young out a few times, while leaving him the pocket a few others. They rolled the pocket and protection but they did not run anything exactly like the Read yesterday.

Young got outside and ran a couple times and he is a (blanking) nightmare for defensive backs to bring down. Being a Sooner I have a hard time saying this but...

Young looked ok yesterday. Yes, he bounced a few but his WR also dropped a few. He dropped a tear drop deep out to either Wade or Jones between the C and S. Great throw and not one I thought Young had in his bag. Anyway, the WR clapped at it and let it fall.

The Falcons could run into teams with the player personnel on defense...great side line to side line speed...to slow that down but I am not sure anyway just takes that away.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Vince Young isn't nearly as good a runner as Vick, right?

Would Vick's success with this play necessarily mean Young, who mastered it in college, will succeed with it in the NFL?

WhoDat said:

Since Vince Young has run this play better than anyone...ever...I don't see why he wouldn't consider using it at least on a limited basis. Maybe they have and I just didn't catch it. We don't get the Titans down here.

hairy scotsman, they sprinted Young out a few times, while leaving him the pocket a few others. They rolled the pocket and protection but they did not run anything exactly like the Read yesterday.

Young got outside and ran a couple times and he is a (blanking) nightmare for defensive backs to bring down. Being a Sooner I have a hard time saying this but...

Young looked ok yesterday. Yes, he bounced a few but his WR also dropped a few. He dropped a tear drop deep out to either Wade or Jones between the C and S. Great throw and not one I thought Young had in his bag. Anyway, the WR clapped at it and let it fall.

The Falcons could run into teams with the player personnel on defense...great side line to side line speed...to slow that down but I am not sure anyway just takes that away.

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Good post, Sooner...(ou sucks ). BTW, too bad about the reffing in your game over the weekend...and I mean that. I hate to see anyone lose that way. 'Course, I hate to see dbs get burned like that, too. Brings back memories of tOSU and that Gonzales kid in our secondary all night.But I digress.

When the ZR is run with a good OL and people who are very adept at running it, it's very difficult to stop completely, but it's not impossible to scheme to slow it or stop it. The problem is that stopping a very good ZR attack, as with stopping any very good rushing attack, means dedicating extra personnel to do so, thus leaving gaping holes in your defense. Sooner or later, someone will pick that poison against the Falcons, just as they did against Texas last year at times, and we'll see how the OC and Vick respond.

dgreen said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Vince Young isn't nearly as good a runner as Vick, right?

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They're different runners, surrounded by vastly different personnel...and since Young's a rookie who's only done it in college and Vick's been doing it in the nfl for a few years already, of course you have to give him a significant edge. After Vick, though, what NFL qb is a better runner than Young?

Would Vick's success with this play necessarily mean Young, who mastered it in college, will succeed with it in the NFL?

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Of course not. You have to have blocking to make any play work. The Titans OL is not good and is probably a long way from becoming good. The Falcons OL, otoh is quite good. You could ask the same question regarding Young's success with the play in college..."Would Young's success with this play necessarily mean qb X, who mastered it in high school, will succeed with it in college?"

the hairy scotsman said:

WhoDat said:

Since Vince Young has run this play better than anyone...ever...I don't see why he wouldn't consider using it at least on a limited basis. Maybe they have and I just didn't catch it. We don't get the Titans down here.

hairy scotsman, they sprinted Young out a few times, while leaving him the pocket a few others. They rolled the pocket and protection but they did not run anything exactly like the Read yesterday.

Young got outside and ran a couple times and he is a (blanking) nightmare for defensive backs to bring down. Being a Sooner I have a hard time saying this but...

Young looked ok yesterday. Yes, he bounced a few but his WR also dropped a few. He dropped a tear drop deep out to either Wade or Jones between the C and S. Great throw and not one I thought Young had in his bag. Anyway, the WR clapped at it and let it fall.

The Falcons could run into teams with the player personnel on defense...great side line to side line speed...to slow that down but I am not sure anyway just takes that away.

Click to expand...

Good post, Sooner...(ou sucks ). BTW, too bad about the reffing in your game over the weekend...and I mean that. I hate to see anyone lose that way. 'Course, I hate to see dbs get burned like that, too. Brings back memories of tOSU and that Gonzales kid in our secondary all night.But I digress.

When the ZR is run with a good OL and people who are very adept at running it, it's very difficult to stop completely, but it's not impossible to scheme to slow it or stop it. The problem is that stopping a very good ZR attack, as with stopping any very good rushing attack, means dedicating extra personnel to do so, thus leaving gaping holes in your defense. Sooner or later, someone will pick that poison against the Falcons, just as they did against Texas last year at times, and we'll see how the OC and Vick respond.

Click to expand...

Don't even get me started on the game. A game at any level should never be determined by the officials. Considering the crew has been suspended, the NCAA is admitting they really (blanked) up. Even if the roles were reversed I would feel the same. Those kids work far too hard to have a game decided by an officiating crews' incompetence.Correct me if I'm wrong, but Vince Young isn't nearly as good a runner as Vick, right?

Would Vick's success with this play necessarily mean Young, who mastered it in college, will succeed with it in the NFL?

Young is a different runner. For a man his size he is deceptively fast...straight line...but he does not have the wiggle of Vick nor does he have that freakish accelaration. Conversely, Young is a BIG man.

I am pretty sure Merriman had a nice open field shot at Young Sunday. Another Charger had Young by an ankle. Merriman got cute and tried to take Young at the top of the numbers. Merriman hit; wrapped and eventually ended up around Young's feet. Oh, it brought Young down but Merriman bounced and slid. Last time I checked Merriman is right up there with J. Porter and R. Lewis in the last guy I would want to get hit by catergory. For Young to withstand that shot without dropping like he was shot, well, it says something about his strength.

You just don't get hit by someone that big and fast and see that player end up at your ankles.

It is assumptive to think Young can take that offense and excel in the NFL with the current talent he is surrounded by on the Titans. There is a reason Vick and Co. made it look so easy Sunday. They have the people with the experience and skill set to pull it off.

scotsman is getting into it a little and without getting too deep in the X and O aspects, yes, someone could step up to stop the Falcons. They are going to need a very experienced seconday; get overall team speed; exceptional LB with sideline to sideline motors and have to play within their areas of responsibility.

If the wrong defender makes the wrong choice post snap, then Vick could easily burn someone deep or coming over the middle. Of course, run deep and take the middle Vick has what is immediately in front of him.

The Saints have their hands full next Monday night. That is a fairly large rivarly but it could get out of hand in a hurry.

A team will have to get smarter in cloacking their coverage and attempt to confuse Vick. If he has any weakness as a player, then it would have to be his intellect. Nobody's perfect and he has more than enough God given talent to cover that gap most of the time but with enough time a DC could make it harder on Vick. I don't know if a team is going to be able to stop that package down in and out.

The Falcons will be careful. As was stated, Vick is open to be destroyed in that formation. Sometimes defenders guess right and quarterbacks are wrong. I would think the team will limit the amount of exposure they assume each week and use this on an as needed basis but not convert their playbook.

WhoDat said:

the hairy scotsman said:

WhoDat said:

Since Vince Young has run this play better than anyone...ever...I don't see why he wouldn't consider using it at least on a limited basis. Maybe they have and I just didn't catch it. We don't get the Titans down here.

hairy scotsman, they sprinted Young out a few times, while leaving him the pocket a few others. They rolled the pocket and protection but they did not run anything exactly like the Read yesterday.

Young got outside and ran a couple times and he is a (blanking) nightmare for defensive backs to bring down. Being a Sooner I have a hard time saying this but...

Young looked ok yesterday. Yes, he bounced a few but his WR also dropped a few. He dropped a tear drop deep out to either Wade or Jones between the C and S. Great throw and not one I thought Young had in his bag. Anyway, the WR clapped at it and let it fall.

The Falcons could run into teams with the player personnel on defense...great side line to side line speed...to slow that down but I am not sure anyway just takes that away.

Click to expand...

Good post, Sooner...(ou sucks ). BTW, too bad about the reffing in your game over the weekend...and I mean that. I hate to see anyone lose that way. 'Course, I hate to see dbs get burned like that, too. Brings back memories of tOSU and that Gonzales kid in our secondary all night.But I digress.

When the ZR is run with a good OL and people who are very adept at running it, it's very difficult to stop completely, but it's not impossible to scheme to slow it or stop it. The problem is that stopping a very good ZR attack, as with stopping any very good rushing attack, means dedicating extra personnel to do so, thus leaving gaping holes in your defense. Sooner or later, someone will pick that poison against the Falcons, just as they did against Texas last year at times, and we'll see how the OC and Vick respond.

Click to expand...

Don't even get me started on the game. A game at any level should never be determined by the officials. Considering the crew has been suspended, the NCAA is admitting they really (blanked) up. Even if the roles were reversed I would feel the same. Those kids work far too hard to have a game decided by an officiating crews' incompetence.Correct me if I'm wrong, but Vince Young isn't nearly as good a runner as Vick, right?

Would Vick's success with this play necessarily mean Young, who mastered it in college, will succeed with it in the NFL?

Young is a different runner. For a man his size he is deceptively fast...straight line...but he does not have the wiggle of Vick nor does he have that freakish accelaration. Conversely, Young is a BIG man.

I am pretty sure Merriman had a nice open field shot at Young Sunday. Another Charger had Young by an ankle. Merriman got cute and tried to take Young at the top of the numbers. Merriman hit; wrapped and eventually ended up around Young's feet. Oh, it brought Young down but Merriman bounced and slid. Last time I checked Merriman is right up there with J. Porter and R. Lewis in the last guy I would want to get hit by catergory. For Young to withstand that shot without dropping like he was shot, well, it says something about his strength.

You just don't get hit by someone that big and fast and see that player end up at your ankles.

It is assumptive to think Young can take that offense and excel in the NFL with the current talent he is surrounded by on the Titans. There is a reason Vick and Co. made it look so easy Sunday. They have the people with the experience and skill set to pull it off.

scotsman is getting into it a little and without getting too deep in the X and O aspects, yes, someone could step up to stop the Falcons. They are going to need a very experienced seconday; get overall team speed; exceptional LB with sideline to sideline motors and have to play within their areas of responsibility.

If the wrong defender makes the wrong choice post snap, then Vick could easily burn someone deep or coming over the middle. Of course, run deep and take the middle Vick has what is immediately in front of him.

The Saints have their hands full next Monday night. That is a fairly large rivarly but it could get out of hand in a hurry.

A team will have to get smarter in cloacking their coverage and attempt to confuse Vick. If he has any weakness as a player, then it would have to be his intellect. Nobody's perfect and he has more than enough God given talent to cover that gap most of the time but with enough time a DC could make it harder on Vick. I don't know if a team is going to be able to stop that package down in and out.

The Falcons will be careful. As was stated, Vick is open to be destroyed in that formation. Sometimes defenders guess right and quarterbacks are wrong. I would think the team will limit the amount of exposure they assume each week and use this on an as needed basis but not convert their playbook.

Click to expand...

Very , and I think that last part, and the personnel issue are key points. The Falcons, if they are smart, will continue to make people guess as to when they are or aren't running the Zone Read out of that shotgun. Listen to WhoDat about slowing/stopping the Zone Read. In the '04 TX/OU game, they shut out the Horns by overloading to stop the run and take the TEs out of the passing game, then blitzing heavily. This left Texas' then inexperienced wrs in man coverage. Many times they made bad reads on the blitzes and ran the wrong routes. Young would look at the the spot where the hot read was supposed to be, then get mauled. Texas OC Greg Davis basically went along, not calling IM and/or deep passing plays against the manned up, vulnerable dbs. OU basically dared us to throw over the top, and GD would not do it...and they shut us out. I think Texas, both players and coaches, learned a lot from that game, and used it en route to a long streak and NC.