PPR (1 Viewer)

GSNVulture · Sep 23, 2006

I normally don't post on forums but this topic has been bugging me alot lately. Why is PPR becoming popular?

I dont understand how people believe PPR increases the value of WR over RB. Isnt value determined by positional relation. Gates is more valuable than alot of players not because he scores more than runningbacks but because he seperates himself at his position. PPR doesnt create that big of a seperation positionally I m sure it sets the bar slightly higher in mid tiers but isnt that still not solving the problem.

Why should a reception dump off pass for 0 or let along negative yards be worth around a point? How the heck do you justify this play as a positive in any way shape or form and give credit/points to it? Shoot the thrown away pass to avoid sack and interception for 0 yards that almost no scoring system gives credit for is worth a heck of alot more than 0 yard or -2 yard dumpoff pass. which is worth .8 to 1 point?!?! HOW IS A WORTHLESS PLAY WORTH ANYTHING?

It over values specialty players. Players like Bush in PPR are extremely overvalued. This is not a knock on him but shouldn't yards gained and touchdowns be more important than giving credit for receptions.

When we look at players isnt yards per recep/carry a better way to determine worth over number of carries/receptions? I dont care if E George ran 400 times at 2.8 yards a carry for 1120 the guy (lets say (R Bush) who had 200 carries at 5.6 yards a carry for 1120 is a much better back!!! this holds true upto apoint players still need opportunity and we need a large enough data size to determine if enough variables have been overcome and met. 1 carry for 89 yards doesnt make you the best back. So why do receptions hold this value of the more the better. I DONT CARE ABOUT QUANTITY OVER QUALITY. Why are scoring systems trying to reward it?

Explain to me why PPR isnt a fad that in 10 years will be looked upon like Distance Scoring? how are they any different? I hope I m wrong but I have a feeling its just a popularity contest right now and people are thinking its cool over effective scoring.

But what the heck do I know. I m not saying its not fun and I m not saying dont use it but rather I dont understand why.

Limp Ditka · Sep 23, 2006

GSNVulture said:
I normally don't post on forums but this topic has been bugging me alot lately. Why is PPR becoming popular?I dont understand how people believe PPR increases the value of WR over RB. Isnt value determined by positional relation. Gates is more valuable than alot of players not because he scores more than runningbacks but because he seperates himself at his position. PPR doesnt create that big of a seperation positionally I m sure it sets the bar slightly higher in mid tiers but isnt that still not solving the problem.Why should a reception dump off pass for 0 or let along negative yards be worth around a point? How the heck do you justify this play as a positive in any way shape or form and give credit/points to it? Shoot the thrown away pass to avoid sack and interception for 0 yards that almost no scoring system gives credit for is worth a heck of alot more than 0 yard or -2 yard dumpoff pass. which is worth .8 to 1 point?!?! HOW IS A WORTHLESS PLAY WORTH ANYTHING?It over values specialty players. Players like Bush in PPR are extremely overvalued. This is not a knock on him but shouldn't yards gained and touchdowns be more important than giving credit for receptions. When we look at players isnt yards per recep/carry a better way to determine worth over number of carries/receptions? I dont care if E George ran 400 times at 2.8 yards a carry for 1120 the guy (lets say (R Bush) who had 200 carries at 5.6 yards a carry for 1120 is a much better back!!! this holds true upto apoint players still need opportunity and we need a large enough data size to determine if enough variables have been overcome and met. 1 carry for 89 yards doesnt make you the best back. So why do receptions hold this value of the more the better. I DONT CARE ABOUT QUANTITY OVER QUALITY. Why are scoring systems trying to reward it?Explain to me why PPR isnt a fad that in 10 years will be looked upon like Distance Scoring? how are they any different? I hope I m wrong but I have a feeling its just a popularity contest right now and people are thinking its cool over effective scoring.But what the heck do I know. I m not saying its not fun and I m not saying dont use it but rather I dont understand why.

I think PPR is an easy way to help even out the playing field between RBs and WRs. Much like only rewarding QBs 3-4 points for TDs, creating PPR leagues help balance out the value of players at all positions.

Borat · Sep 23, 2006

GSNVulture said:
When we look at players isnt yards per recep/carry a better way to determine worth over number of carries/receptions? I dont care if E George ran 400 times at 2.8 yards a carry for 1120 the guy (lets say (R Bush) who had 200 carries at 5.6 yards a carry for 1120 is a much better back!!! this holds true upto apoint players still need opportunity and we need a large enough data size to determine if enough variables have been overcome and met. 1 carry for 89 yards doesnt make you the best back. So why do receptions hold this value of the more the better. I DONT CARE ABOUT QUANTITY OVER QUALITY. Why are scoring systems trying to reward it?

Maybe, but how would you reward points based on an average?

Neil Beaufort Zod · Sep 23, 2006

What I don't understand is why people don't understand PPR. It's a normal extension of performance-based scoring. It provides a reward for a guy being targeted and, presumably, a bigger part of the offense.

you ask how is a worthless play worth anything? We reward garbage-time stats, don't we? A 17-yard carry on 3rd-and-29 is worthless-- the defense will gladly give it up. But we count it, and can thrive on it. The only plays that are "worth anything" are scoring plays, and few leagues are TD-only.

Why should a guy who went "Jerricho Cotchery" on a pass play (and had just that one catch) get as many points as a receiver who was targeted all day long and was a huge part of the gameplan? Well, there's no reason why...or why not. Arguments can be made on both sides, so I don't see the big deal. If you have performance-based scoring, it doesn't really matter what performances you choose to reward. Just enjoy it.

hook014 · Sep 23, 2006

I'll take a stab at it. Firstly, it's not perfect. It has it's problems.

Let's start with those.

Overvalues some plays in error. Yes, as your sample pointed out some plays get more credit than they deserve. Somewhat mitigated by the fact that this is true for all teams.

I.E. what works against you also works for you. No one complains when their RB gets a cheap Recp point. But it doesn't exactly even out.

Guys like Westbrook and now Bush have value+. You draft for it.

The reason our league went to it was to raise the valu of rec's relative to Rbs.

Just got tired of playing fantasy RB. Wanted to make our 5th rd selection of wr's just as important as our 2nd rd pick of RB's. And it's done that.

Look at it this way; A lot of times in the standard format which Rb's you picked in the first 3 rds went a long way toward determining where you ended up. Sure, a good fantasy player knows drafts don't end at rd 3. Value can be had in every round and that's why you do your homework. But in a 12 team league if 1 or 2 of your first 3 rds comes up lame or is a bust you're cooked. You might place in the money but you won't or shouldn't win. Just too much high quality info to be had now for too easy.

With PPR you expand those 3 rds to maybe 8 or 9. And that extra opportunity rewards the better prepared player. With overall values being so equal a good player can gain a few ppg on each pick and overcome a guy who just drew lucky in the first few rds. (marshall Faulk anyone?)

Distance bonuses reward random chance and were doomed from the start.

PPR, for the most part, does the opposite.

Darcimer · Sep 23, 2006

I think the primary goal of PPR is to make fantasy football fair for everyone. I don't think it's a fad, I think it has a genuine purpose. I'll try to explain my thoughts.

In a typical scoring only/redraft league, every year, at least in recent years, there is "the Big Three" then Peyton, and then the next tier of guys. This might vary slightly from year to year, but you get the idea. It was the same way 15 years ago.. Anyway, the dropoff is huge here. So the bottom half of the draft was getting the shaft. The same situation existed for the performance leagues, but at least the players weren't getting all zeros, so it tightened the gap some. Soon, leagues realized that there was a big problem with the weight of the RB's. They were still overpowered. So what was the guy drafting last supposed to do? Take RB12 and RB13, and leave the top WR's for the same exact people who have RB1-3? Or take a gamble with RB12 and WR1 fully knowing that several backup RBs were going to outscore his WR1. Enter PPR... Now, it is not suicide to take Larry Fitzgerald in the first round. Or Reggie Bush even. ( I am guilty of drinking that Kool Aid, I took him in the first round of every PPR draft I had this year.) I think that flex positions and serpentine style drafting also became popular because of these same reasons. I used to cringe getting slot 12. Now it doesn't suck anymore to draft last..

I also admit that your points are completely valid. I had Heap score a ton of points last week. He was 5/17/1td. In my league that was second, for TE's, only to LJ Smith who had 127 yards.. And outscored MANY RB's. There is no way anyone can validate the fact that 1 reception for 0 yardage( or negative) should be comparable to a 10 yard scamper up the middle ( 1pt/10yds?). But what we can say is that the BEST WR will have equal opportunity to score as much as the BEST RB. This will give you approximately a dozen or so legitimate first round choices. (In my opinion, you need to be modest with the QB scoring, they should still be the highest scorers on your team in the spirit of the real game.. )

I'd also add that it might be appropriate to give RB's only 1/2, or no points for PPR for the reasons you mentioned. You are still going to have those passes to the wideouts that go for no yardage, but a WR is only going to get targetted maybe a dozen times tops( if he is lucky) per game. Actually it more liekly 5-10 targets for top 50 WR's. However, the RB position on the same team ( might not be the same guy) will get 20-30 touches. But the point here is that each position is reliant on the other's prosperity. IF the RB is running gangbusters, the defense will have to loosen up on the WR to help protect against the run, and thus open up some huge opportunities for the WR. If the WR is getting behind the defense and exploiting holes, then resources will move to cover the gaps, and open up more running lanes. This being the case, I have no problem with those short/zero yard passes. Credit the defense for it being no gain. Sometimes those passes go for long TD's..

It isn't perfect, but I think maybe alot of people feel that it is a real football technique to make fantasy football fun and fair. I do not think I'd play in a big money(500-1000) if it wasn't ppr... I might have gotten #12 and taken Lamont Jordan and Randy Moss back-to back... Yikes.....

TWA

GSNVulture · Sep 23, 2006

Neil Beaufort Zod said:
What I don't understand is why people don't understand PPR. It's a normal extension of performance-based scoring. It provides a reward for a guy being targeted and, presumably, a bigger part of the offense.you ask how is a worthless play worth anything? We reward garbage-time stats, don't we? A 17-yard carry on 3rd-and-29 is worthless-- the defense will gladly give it up. But we count it, and can thrive on it. The only plays that are "worth anything" are scoring plays, and few leagues are TD-only. Why should a guy who went "Jerricho Cotchery" on a pass play (and had just that one catch) get as many points as a receiver who was targeted all day long and was a huge part of the gameplan? Well, there's no reason why...or why not. Arguments can be made on both sides, so I don't see the big deal. If you have performance-based scoring, it doesn't really matter what performances you choose to reward. Just enjoy it.

Garbage time stats at least are a positive in one form or another. That is not even remotely the same thing but put your rose colored glasses on and feel superiour in your belief that your right. A play that produces negative yards has absolutely no positives but you still feel justified in it. By the way how many Prevention Defences in garbage time actually lost games so I guess those 17 yards that you percieved worthless might actually mean something. Especially if they get 12 on 4th down but your to narrow minded to think that.

GSNVulture · Sep 23, 2006

Darcimer said:
I think the primary goal of PPR is to make fantasy football fair for everyone. I don't think it's a fad, I think it has a genuine purpose. I'll try to explain my thoughts. In a typical scoring only/redraft league, every year, at least in recent years, there is "the Big Three" then Peyton, and then the next tier of guys. This might vary slightly from year to year, but you get the idea. It was the same way 15 years ago.. Anyway, the dropoff is huge here. So the bottom half of the draft was getting the shaft. The same situation existed for the performance leagues, but at least the players weren't getting all zeros, so it tightened the gap some. Soon, leagues realized that there was a big problem with the weight of the RB's. They were still overpowered. So what was the guy drafting last supposed to do? Take RB12 and RB13, and leave the top WR's for the same exact people who have RB1-3? Or take a gamble with RB12 and WR1 fully knowing that several backup RBs were going to outscore his WR1. Enter PPR... Now, it is not suicide to take Larry Fitzgerald in the first round. Or Reggie Bush even. ( I am guilty of drinking that Kool Aid, I took him in the first round of every PPR draft I had this year.) I think that flex positions and serpentine style drafting also became popular because of these same reasons. I used to cringe getting slot 12. Now it doesn't suck anymore to draft last..I also admit that your points are completely valid. I had Heap score a ton of points last week. He was 5/17/1td. In my league that was second, for TE's, only to LJ Smith who had 127 yards.. And outscored MANY RB's. There is no way anyone can validate the fact that 1 reception for 0 yardage( or negative) should be comparable to a 10 yard scamper up the middle ( 1pt/10yds?). But what we can say is that the BEST WR will have equal opportunity to score as much as the BEST RB. This will give you approximately a dozen or so legitimate first round choices. (In my opinion, you need to be modest with the QB scoring, they should still be the highest scorers on your team in the spirit of the real game.. )I'd also add that it might be appropriate to give RB's only 1/2, or no points for PPR for the reasons you mentioned. You are still going to have those passes to the wideouts that go for no yardage, but a WR is only going to get targetted maybe a dozen times tops( if he is lucky) per game. Actually it more liekly 5-10 targets for top 50 WR's. However, the RB position on the same team ( might not be the same guy) will get 20-30 touches. But the point here is that each position is reliant on the other's prosperity. IF the RB is running gangbusters, the defense will have to loosen up on the WR to help protect against the run, and thus open up some huge opportunities for the WR. If the WR is getting behind the defense and exploiting holes, then resources will move to cover the gaps, and open up more running lanes. This being the case, I have no problem with those short/zero yard passes. Credit the defense for it being no gain. Sometimes those passes go for long TD's.. It isn't perfect, but I think maybe alot of people feel that it is a real football technique to make fantasy football fun and fair. I do not think I'd play in a big money(500-1000) if it wasn't ppr... I might have gotten #12 and taken Lamont Jordan and Randy Moss back-to back... Yikes.....TWA

But isnt the problem you first stated an issue with the draft not the scoring system? Auction drafts solve this problem I believe.Your second statement about the best wr scoring as much as the best rb is only valid in Flex leagues because RBs value is dependent on the other rbs. Why do I care value wise what your wr scores compared to my rb I only care wr vs wr. Correct?Your T Heap example is exactly why this scoring system absolutely confuses me People tyring to fix one problem create another.Thanks too all for the responces its helped but I m still not sure why its a good solution to a problem it doesnt fix

GSNVulture · Sep 23, 2006

hook014 said:
I'll take a stab at it. Firstly, it's not perfect. It has it's problems.Let's start with those.Overvalues some plays in error. Yes, as your sample pointed out some plays get more credit than they deserve. Somewhat mitigated by the fact that this is true for all teams.I.E. what works against you also works for you. No one complains when their RB gets a cheap Recp point. But it doesn't exactly even out. Guys like Westbrook and now Bush have value+. You draft for it.The reason our league went to it was to raise the valu of rec's relative to Rbs.Just got tired of playing fantasy RB. Wanted to make our 5th rd selection of wr's just as important as our 2nd rd pick of RB's. And it's done that. Look at it this way; A lot of times in the standard format which Rb's you picked in the first 3 rds went a long way toward determining where you ended up. Sure, a good fantasy player knows drafts don't end at rd 3. Value can be had in every round and that's why you do your homework. But in a 12 team league if 1 or 2 of your first 3 rds comes up lame or is a bust you're cooked. You might place in the money but you won't or shouldn't win. Just too much high quality info to be had now for too easy.With PPR you expand those 3 rds to maybe 8 or 9. And that extra opportunity rewards the better prepared player. With overall values being so equal a good player can gain a few ppg on each pick and overcome a guy who just drew lucky in the first few rds. (marshall Faulk anyone?)Distance bonuses reward random chance and were doomed from the start.PPR, for the most part, does the opposite.

I agree and I take back my statement of Distance being a good comparison. But PPR still doesnt fix the problem and adds additional ones.

Uruk-Hai · Sep 23, 2006

GSNVulture said:
Darcimer said:

I think the primary goal of PPR is to make fantasy football fair for everyone. I don't think it's a fad, I think it has a genuine purpose. I'll try to explain my thoughts.

In a typical scoring only/redraft league, every year, at least in recent years, there is "the Big Three" then Peyton, and then the next tier of guys. This might vary slightly from year to year, but you get the idea. It was the same way 15 years ago.. Anyway, the dropoff is huge here. So the bottom half of the draft was getting the shaft. The same situation existed for the performance leagues, but at least the players weren't getting all zeros, so it tightened the gap some. Soon, leagues realized that there was a big problem with the weight of the RB's. They were still overpowered. So what was the guy drafting last supposed to do? Take RB12 and RB13, and leave the top WR's for the same exact people who have RB1-3? Or take a gamble with RB12 and WR1 fully knowing that several backup RBs were going to outscore his WR1. Enter PPR... Now, it is not suicide to take Larry Fitzgerald in the first round. Or Reggie Bush even. ( I am guilty of drinking that Kool Aid, I took him in the first round of every PPR draft I had this year.) I think that flex positions and serpentine style drafting also became popular because of these same reasons. I used to cringe getting slot 12. Now it doesn't suck anymore to draft last..

I also admit that your points are completely valid. I had Heap score a ton of points last week. He was 5/17/1td. In my league that was second, for TE's, only to LJ Smith who had 127 yards.. And outscored MANY RB's. There is no way anyone can validate the fact that 1 reception for 0 yardage( or negative) should be comparable to a 10 yard scamper up the middle ( 1pt/10yds?). But what we can say is that the BEST WR will have equal opportunity to score as much as the BEST RB. This will give you approximately a dozen or so legitimate first round choices. (In my opinion, you need to be modest with the QB scoring, they should still be the highest scorers on your team in the spirit of the real game.. )

I'd also add that it might be appropriate to give RB's only 1/2, or no points for PPR for the reasons you mentioned. You are still going to have those passes to the wideouts that go for no yardage, but a WR is only going to get targetted maybe a dozen times tops( if he is lucky) per game. Actually it more liekly 5-10 targets for top 50 WR's. However, the RB position on the same team ( might not be the same guy) will get 20-30 touches. But the point here is that each position is reliant on the other's prosperity. IF the RB is running gangbusters, the defense will have to loosen up on the WR to help protect against the run, and thus open up some huge opportunities for the WR. If the WR is getting behind the defense and exploiting holes, then resources will move to cover the gaps, and open up more running lanes. This being the case, I have no problem with those short/zero yard passes. Credit the defense for it being no gain. Sometimes those passes go for long TD's..

It isn't perfect, but I think maybe alot of people feel that it is a real football technique to make fantasy football fun and fair. I do not think I'd play in a big money(500-1000) if it wasn't ppr... I might have gotten #12 and taken Lamont Jordan and Randy Moss back-to back... Yikes.....

TWA

Click to expand...

But isnt the problem you first stated an issue with the draft not the scoring system? Auction drafts solve this problem I believe.Your second statement about the best wr scoring as much as the best rb is only valid in Flex leagues because RBs value is dependent on the other rbs. Why do I care value wise what your wr scores compared to my rb I only care wr vs wr. Correct?

Your T Heap example is exactly why this scoring system absolutely confuses me People tyring to fix one problem create another.

Thanks too all for the responces its helped but I m still not sure why its a good solution to a problem it doesnt fix

That's why we use ppr for WRs - it helps balance scoring for our flex positions (we use two), so that the flex spot doesn't become just another default RB spot. There's a couple of guys in our league that aren't crazy about it in principle - the "why should he get rewarded for a catch that gets one yard" argument - but agree with the idea of balancing out the scoring. We looked at awarding points if the catch results in a first down (IIRC, about 70% of catches are for a first down), changing the 1/10 yds to something else, & a few other things. But, in the end, we left it at ppr - it works just about perfectly scoring-wise, it's the easiest to follow along with & catches are a good measure of WR talent.

Kung Fu Hustler · Sep 23, 2006

I'd have to agree. If you have PPR why not have a category of PPHO, points per handoff, or PPS posints per snap?

GSNVulture said:
I normally don't post on forums but this topic has been bugging me alot lately. Why is PPR becoming popular?I dont understand how people believe PPR increases the value of WR over RB. Isnt value determined by positional relation. Gates is more valuable than alot of players not because he scores more than runningbacks but because he seperates himself at his position. PPR doesnt create that big of a seperation positionally I m sure it sets the bar slightly higher in mid tiers but isnt that still not solving the problem.Why should a reception dump off pass for 0 or let along negative yards be worth around a point? How the heck do you justify this play as a positive in any way shape or form and give credit/points to it? Shoot the thrown away pass to avoid sack and interception for 0 yards that almost no scoring system gives credit for is worth a heck of alot more than 0 yard or -2 yard dumpoff pass. which is worth .8 to 1 point?!?! HOW IS A WORTHLESS PLAY WORTH ANYTHING?It over values specialty players. Players like Bush in PPR are extremely overvalued. This is not a knock on him but shouldn't yards gained and touchdowns be more important than giving credit for receptions. When we look at players isnt yards per recep/carry a better way to determine worth over number of carries/receptions? I dont care if E George ran 400 times at 2.8 yards a carry for 1120 the guy (lets say (R Bush) who had 200 carries at 5.6 yards a carry for 1120 is a much better back!!! this holds true upto apoint players still need opportunity and we need a large enough data size to determine if enough variables have been overcome and met. 1 carry for 89 yards doesnt make you the best back. So why do receptions hold this value of the more the better. I DONT CARE ABOUT QUANTITY OVER QUALITY. Why are scoring systems trying to reward it?Explain to me why PPR isnt a fad that in 10 years will be looked upon like Distance Scoring? how are they any different? I hope I m wrong but I have a feeling its just a popularity contest right now and people are thinking its cool over effective scoring.But what the heck do I know. I m not saying its not fun and I m not saying dont use it but rather I dont understand why.

Insane Monkey · Sep 23, 2006

PPR is just one of the ways to set up a league. It is not right and it is not wrong. It is just another way to play the game and use different stratgies. That's all it is. Either you like it or you don't.

You have you have two choices:

A) Join a league because they have PPR

or

B) Not join a league because they have PPR

That's it.

The following is just an observation, I don't know if this is true and please do not take it personal. But it sounds like somebody joined a league, drafted their team and then decided to check the league settings and found out they didn't draft a team setup for one point per reception. If that is what happened, do not blame anybody but yourself. It is the responsibility of every team to know the rules before they start.

This is a non-issue!!!!! :thumbdown:

Patoons · Sep 23, 2006

Kung Fu Hustler said:
I'd have to agree. If you have PPR why not have a category of PPHO, points per handoff, or PPS posints per snap?

Because there are 32 starting RBs in the NFL and atleast 64 starting WRs. The point is to level the playing field. In addition, traditionally an RB will get around 20 carries. How many times do you see a WR even getting that many targets? There are many more receiving options as compared to rushing options (I'm assuming someone will point to an RBBC, but that clearly sets the value for the player).If you look at the final rankings in a non-PPR vs. PPR from last season, it's pretty clear why many people favor PPR. It takes the RB injury luck out of the game and adds a little more skill/scouting to the hobby with the various options you can choose.

Patoons · Sep 23, 2006

GSNVulture said:
It over values specialty players. Players like Bush in PPR are extremely overvalued. This is not a knock on him but shouldn't yards gained and touchdowns be more important than giving credit for receptions.

I disagree...Guys like Faulk, Westbrook and Bush should be at the top of leagues. They are/were the core of their respective teams and make it extremely difficult for teams to shut down their offense. In the NFL, these guys are game changers and invaluable to their teams. They SHOULD be valued at the top.

GSNVulture · Sep 23, 2006

Patoons said:
GSNVulture said:

It over values specialty players. Players like Bush in PPR are extremely overvalued. This is not a knock on him but shouldn't yards gained and touchdowns be more important than giving credit for receptions.

Click to expand...

I disagree...Guys like Faulk, Westbrook and Bush should be at the top of leagues. They are/were the core of their respective teams and make it extremely difficult for teams to shut down their offense. In the NFL, these guys are game changers and invaluable to their teams. They SHOULD be valued at the top.

Faulk was at the top of the leagues regardless so hes a bad example. As for Westbrook and Bush are you saying they are more talented and important than other runningbacks because they catch more I would disagree. They are just as important yardage wise as the runningback who gets 100 on the ground as if they get 40 on ground and 60 through the air. Yardage is allready reward enough why over value a catch. Both players contributed 100 yards why does a catch mean more to the team that makes no logical sense. Every yard is just as important.

GSNVulture · Sep 23, 2006

Insane Monkey said:
PPR is just one of the ways to set up a league. It is not right and it is not wrong. It is just another way to play the game and use different stratgies. That's all it is. Either you like it or you don't. You have you have two choices:A) Join a league because they have PPRor B) Not join a league because they have PPRThat's it.The following is just an observation, I don't know if this is true and please do not take it personal. But it sounds like somebody joined a league, drafted their team and then decided to check the league settings and found out they didn't draft a team setup for one point per reception. If that is what happened, do not blame anybody but yourself. It is the responsibility of every team to know the rules before they start. This is a non-issue!!!!!

Not taking this personal but I find it odd that you would jump to conclusion that I happened to join a ppr recently and am upset with my draft. Strange that the only conclusion you can come to with dislike of PPR is being a newb.

Patoons · Sep 23, 2006

GSNVulture said:
Faulk was at the top of the leagues regardless so hes a bad example. As for Westbrook and Bush are you saying they are more talented and important than other runningbacks because they catch more I would disagree. They are just as important yardage wise as the runningback who gets 100 on the ground as if they get 40 on ground and 60 through the air. Yardage is allready reward enough why over value a catch. Both players contributed 100 yards why does a catch mean more to the team that makes no logical sense. Every yard is just as important.

I see how you specifically pulled this out of my response. I'm wondering if you have something to say about the rest of my post.Yes, I think they are more valuable than most running backs. While they lose the "pounding it out" approach, these guys make it difficult for the defenses to play. Having a LB on one of these guys opens up a huge opportunity due to their speed. Put a CB or safety on them you either have to send out a specific defensive package all game and could get killed by the run (i.e. CB out there, run the ball, lose the LB in the game). Have a safety on him and you likely are losing double coverage or safety help on the WRs.I think these players are extremely valuable to their teams and should be appropriately rewarded in fantasy. The guys move the chains and create matchup issues. I don't think it's a coincidence that both these teams are 2-0. Clearly these are two examples, the more important reason is to level the playing field, which the rest of my previous post addressed.

GSNVulture · Sep 23, 2006

Patoons said:
GSNVulture said:

Faulk was at the top of the leagues regardless so hes a bad example. As for Westbrook and Bush are you saying they are more talented and important than other runningbacks because they catch more I would disagree. They are just as important yardage wise as the runningback who gets 100 on the ground as if they get 40 on ground and 60 through the air. Yardage is allready reward enough why over value a catch. Both players contributed 100 yards why does a catch mean more to the team that makes no logical sense. Every yard is just as important.

Click to expand...

I see how you specifically pulled this out of my response. I'm wondering if you have something to say about the rest of my post.Yes, I think they are more valuable than most running backs. While they lose the "pounding it out" approach, these guys make it difficult for the defenses to play. Having a LB on one of these guys opens up a huge opportunity due to their speed. Put a CB or safety on them you either have to send out a specific defensive package all game and could get killed by the run (i.e. CB out there, run the ball, lose the LB in the game). Have a safety on him and you likely are losing double coverage or safety help on the WRs.I think these players are extremely valuable to their teams and should be appropriately rewarded in fantasy. The guys move the chains and create matchup issues. I don't think it's a coincidence that both these teams are 2-0. Clearly these are two examples, the more important reason is to level the playing field, which the rest of my previous post addressed.

I assume you mean no coincidence Phily is 1-1 beating only the Titans and NO being 2-0 beating equally as horrible teams (or close enough). That is by no means a coincidence its a matter of wining games your team should win. Westy and Bush were not the difference the teams as a whole were. And if they are so valuable in comparison I assume you believe Westy was more important to his team than Alexander with his wimpy 15 receptions and god forbid he be better than Bush. Your assumption is insane. The feild opens up more if they are better at running the ball forcing 8-9 in the box helping the passing game as much if not more than if they catch the ball.I will kindly disagree till the ends of the earth that Westy and Bush arent not more important. Maybe as important but not any more.

GSNVulture · Sep 23, 2006

Patoons said:
Kung Fu Hustler said:

I'd have to agree. If you have PPR why not have a category of PPHO, points per handoff, or PPS posints per snap?

Click to expand...

Because there are 32 starting RBs in the NFL and atleast 64 starting WRs. The point is to level the playing field. In addition, traditionally an RB will get around 20 carries. How many times do you see a WR even getting that many targets? There are many more receiving options as compared to rushing options (I'm assuming someone will point to an RBBC, but that clearly sets the value for the player).If you look at the final rankings in a non-PPR vs. PPR from last season, it's pretty clear why many people favor PPR. It takes the RB injury luck out of the game and adds a little more skill/scouting to the hobby with the various options you can choose.

Since you requested I respond to your other post. I didnt pull a partial quote I only responded to the one now on to the other. I m not selectively going to respond I actually want a reasonable discussion. So here goes.So I assume you feel a reception of 15 yards is the equivilant of a run for 5 then and give less points for receiving yards since they average more per reception than per rush. O wait I guess thats why yardage is calculated instead of number of carries. To help discriminate between that discrepency. PPR just goes a step farther and assumes a reception should be worth more than a rush even thou yardage 1-10 rush/rec allready does that.I ve looked at final rankings and RB still top the list. The only thing it changes as far as I ve seen is mid teir with flex which isnt bad. But it does overvalue rbs that catch. A yard is a yard give credit where its due. Bush is a great example of this his place in PPR compared to performance alone is a big difference. How is what he does for his team more important than the people he passed up?

thayman · Sep 23, 2006

Wow lots of good discusion here. GSN to answer your OP, I just look at PPR as just another facet of Fantasy Football. I'm in PPR, and non-PPR leagues I enjoy both, it adds a different dimension to my drafts that has to be accounted for. Much like a auction draft involves a different stategy as opposed to a serpentine draft.

I agree with you that sometimes PPR doesn't make much sense. However I love how a player like Bush can go in the first round in one league, and fall to the late second or third in a draft the next day.

Patoons · Sep 23, 2006

GSNVulture said:
Patoons said:

Kung Fu Hustler said:

I'd have to agree. If you have PPR why not have a category of PPHO, points per handoff, or PPS posints per snap?

Click to expand...

Because there are 32 starting RBs in the NFL and atleast 64 starting WRs. The point is to level the playing field. In addition, traditionally an RB will get around 20 carries. How many times do you see a WR even getting that many targets? There are many more receiving options as compared to rushing options (I'm assuming someone will point to an RBBC, but that clearly sets the value for the player).If you look at the final rankings in a non-PPR vs. PPR from last season, it's pretty clear why many people favor PPR. It takes the RB injury luck out of the game and adds a little more skill/scouting to the hobby with the various options you can choose.

Click to expand...

Since you requested I respond to your other post. I didnt pull a partial quote I only responded to the one now on to the other. I m not selectively going to respond I actually want a reasonable discussion. So here goes.So I assume you feel a reception of 15 yards is the equivilant of a run for 5 then and give less points for receiving yards since they average more per reception than per rush. O wait I guess thats why yardage is calculated instead of number of carries. To help discriminate between that discrepency. PPR just goes a step farther and assumes a reception should be worth more than a rush even thou yardage 1-10 rush/rec allready does that.I ve looked at final rankings and RB still top the list. The only thing it changes as far as I ve seen is mid teir with flex which isnt bad. But it does overvalue rbs that catch. A yard is a yard give credit where its due. Bush is a great example of this his place in PPR compared to performance alone is a big difference. How is what he does for his team more important than the people he passed up?

I'm not sure I agree with the response to my logic of 32 starting RBs and 64 starting WRs. The scarcity along with there being many more opportunities for TDs (goalline, 1 rushing option), to break one, etc. for an RB is the reason that I think PPR is beneficial. It levels off the scoring.In a non-PPR last season, the top WR ranked 19th (S.Smith) and the top WR in PPR ranked 8th (Fitz). I think it is absolutely ridiculous that a guy like Smith (and even Fitz) would only finish 19th when he had 100+ catches, 1500+ yards at 12 TDs. To me a top ten is more than warranted for a season like that.So looking at the rankings, 4 WRs ranked in the top 30 in a non-PPR (this is also with 4 pts/passing TD) and 9 in the top 30 in PPR with Rod Smith being the last in the 30. Having a season of 85 catches, 1100 yards and 6 TD's should warrant top 30 as opposed to ranked 73 overall, shouldn't it? I think so. Taking a look at another NFL stat - 22 TD's is the NFL record for receiving touchdowns in a season and 27 rushing. That is 30 points in most fantasy leagues. On average, the top RB will be about 200 yards more in total rushing yards, or 20 points, based on NFL history. That's a 50 point difference, which would put Rod Smith around 30 in a non-PPR (without adjusting other WRs so maybe lower).Adding a PPR, adjusts a players ranking to reflect his performance and appropriately account for his opportunities to score a TD or break a long one. Add that to the scarcity of having 32 starting RBs, I think prefering PPR is reasonable.I'm not asking for you to agree that PPR is better, but there is a reason that people prefer it.ETA: Bush and Westy do different things to create mismatches which is another reason getting PPR is warranted, as I discussed above.

GSNVulture · Sep 23, 2006

thayman said:
Wow lots of good discusion here. GSN to answer your OP, I just look at PPR as just another facet of Fantasy Football. I'm in PPR, and non-PPR leagues I enjoy both, it adds a different dimension to my drafts that has to be accounted for. Much like a auction draft involves a different stategy as opposed to a serpentine draft.I agree with you that sometimes PPR doesn't make much sense. However I love how a player like Bush can go in the first round in one league, and fall to the late second or third in a draft the next day.

Shouldnt the best player the one that contributes the most be worth the most points! We are awarding people for football knowledge I hope not game manipulation. Bush going in two different spots tells alot. What is his real worth. Otherwise why are we generally rewarding things that players do that help teams win.

Patoons · Sep 23, 2006

GSNVulture said:
thayman said:

Wow lots of good discusion here. GSN to answer your OP, I just look at PPR as just another facet of Fantasy Football. I'm in PPR, and non-PPR leagues I enjoy both, it adds a different dimension to my drafts that has to be accounted for. Much like a auction draft involves a different stategy as opposed to a serpentine draft.I agree with you that sometimes PPR doesn't make much sense. However I love how a player like Bush can go in the first round in one league, and fall to the late second or third in a draft the next day.

Click to expand...

Shouldnt the best player the one that contributes the most be worth the most points! We are awarding people for football knowledge I hope not game manipulation. Bush going in two different spots tells alot. What is his real worth. Otherwise why are we generally rewarding things that players do that help teams win.

Football knowledge should not be compromised by position scarcity. Bush in two different spots is just based on scoring system. As Manning would go earlier in leagues with 6pts/TD as opposed to 4 pts.

thayman · Sep 23, 2006

GSNVulture said:
thayman said:

Wow lots of good discusion here. GSN to answer your OP, I just look at PPR as just another facet of Fantasy Football. I'm in PPR, and non-PPR leagues I enjoy both, it adds a different dimension to my drafts that has to be accounted for. Much like a auction draft involves a different stategy as opposed to a serpentine draft.

I agree with you that sometimes PPR doesn't make much sense. However I love how a player like Bush can go in the first round in one league, and fall to the late second or third in a draft the next day.

Click to expand...

Shouldnt the best player the one that contributes the most be worth the most points! We are awarding people for football knowledge I hope not game manipulation. Bush going in two different spots tells alot. What is his real worth. Otherwise why are we generally rewarding things that players do that help teams win.

well I could say that in a TD only league Peyton Manning is worth a top 5 pick. Different scoring formats require different stategies. You seem to like the Fantasy Football leagues where they are as close to the NFL as possible, if so I'd highly recomend checking this out http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...mp;hl=Formation it intrigued me quite a bit, but was a bit complex, and with my other leagues I didn't have the time to really but a full effor into it, but it looks pretty cool.

coolnerd · Sep 23, 2006

GSNVulture said:
thayman said:

Wow lots of good discusion here. GSN to answer your OP, I just look at PPR as just another facet of Fantasy Football. I'm in PPR, and non-PPR leagues I enjoy both, it adds a different dimension to my drafts that has to be accounted for. Much like a auction draft involves a different stategy as opposed to a serpentine draft.

I agree with you that sometimes PPR doesn't make much sense. However I love how a player like Bush can go in the first round in one league, and fall to the late second or third in a draft the next day.

Click to expand...

Shouldnt the best player the one that contributes the most be worth the most points! We are awarding people for football knowledge I hope not game manipulation. Bush going in two different spots tells alot. What is his real worth. Otherwise why are we generally rewarding things that players do that help teams win.

Fantasy football is game manipulation since we really can't simulate a real game. In era where most teams start 1RB, most leagues start two and in many cases give you the option to start three. The players who are contributing the most are not being rewarded with most points. In one of my non-PPRs league last year the top two WRs were Steve Smith (19th overall) and Larry Fitzgerald (26th overall). Do really think Steve smith's worth was 19th amounst NFL players? After watching the Panthers this first couple of weeks w/o him the leagues where he was top 5 in fantasy scoring sure seem to be closer to his NFL value.

Statorama · Sep 23, 2006

I think PPR came as a result of people having Marvin Harrison and seeing 10 Rec/100 yds/0 TD being worth less than Stacy Macks 1 rush/1 yard/1 TD line.

I like PPR because it benefits my style of drafting preparation. I do a ton of research before my draft and I love having an advantage over some guy that shows up with the April Issue of some Fantasy Football mag. I check who gets "targeted" and who doesn't. It gives me an advantage over those that don't.

I play in a non-ppr league, and it's fun because it's an IDP league. Again, the IDP (as well as auction) format gives me an extra dimension to exploit research-wise.

PPR is probably for more serious FF players. The traditional non-PPR league where it's just a matter of hoping your top 3 RB's stay healthy is going to be popular forever due to the "bring a case of beer and an outdated football magazine to the draft" crowd. Let's face it, when you don't have to worry about receptions, coming up with a top 20 ranking of runningbacks to draft is pretty easy.

PPR is here to stay because it benefits those that do research. That is also why it will never be more popular than non-ppr. There are far more casual players than there are serious players.

The more complex the scoring system is, the more it benefits those that look beyond the boxscore.

GSNVulture · Sep 23, 2006

Patoons said:
GSNVulture said:

Patoons said:

Kung Fu Hustler said:

I'd have to agree. If you have PPR why not have a category of PPHO, points per handoff, or PPS posints per snap?

Click to expand...

Because there are 32 starting RBs in the NFL and atleast 64 starting WRs. The point is to level the playing field. In addition, traditionally an RB will get around 20 carries. How many times do you see a WR even getting that many targets? There are many more receiving options as compared to rushing options (I'm assuming someone will point to an RBBC, but that clearly sets the value for the player).If you look at the final rankings in a non-PPR vs. PPR from last season, it's pretty clear why many people favor PPR. It takes the RB injury luck out of the game and adds a little more skill/scouting to the hobby with the various options you can choose.

Click to expand...

Since you requested I respond to your other post. I didnt pull a partial quote I only responded to the one now on to the other. I m not selectively going to respond I actually want a reasonable discussion. So here goes.So I assume you feel a reception of 15 yards is the equivilant of a run for 5 then and give less points for receiving yards since they average more per reception than per rush. O wait I guess thats why yardage is calculated instead of number of carries. To help discriminate between that discrepency. PPR just goes a step farther and assumes a reception should be worth more than a rush even thou yardage 1-10 rush/rec allready does that.I ve looked at final rankings and RB still top the list. The only thing it changes as far as I ve seen is mid teir with flex which isnt bad. But it does overvalue rbs that catch. A yard is a yard give credit where its due. Bush is a great example of this his place in PPR compared to performance alone is a big difference. How is what he does for his team more important than the people he passed up?

Click to expand...

I'm not sure I agree with the response to my logic of 32 starting RBs and 64 starting WRs. The scarcity along with there being many more opportunities for TDs (goalline, 1 rushing option), to break one, etc. for an RB is the reason that I think PPR is beneficial. It levels off the scoring.In a non-PPR last season, the top WR ranked 19th (S.Smith) and the top WR in PPR ranked 8th (Fitz). I think it is absolutely ridiculous that a guy like Smith (and even Fitz) would only finish 19th when he had 100+ catches, 1500+ yards at 12 TDs. To me a top ten is more than warranted for a season like that.So looking at the rankings, 4 WRs ranked in the top 30 in a non-PPR (this is also with 4 pts/passing TD) and 9 in the top 30 in PPR with Rod Smith being the last in the 30. Having a season of 85 catches, 1100 yards and 6 TD's should warrant top 30 as opposed to ranked 73 overall, shouldn't it? I think so. Taking a look at another NFL stat - 22 TD's is the NFL record for receiving touchdowns in a season and 27 rushing. That is 30 points in most fantasy leagues. On average, the top RB will be about 200 yards more in total rushing yards, or 20 points, based on NFL history. That's a 50 point difference, which would put Rod Smith around 30 in a non-PPR (without adjusting other WRs so maybe lower).Adding a PPR, adjusts a players ranking to reflect his performance and appropriately account for his opportunities to score a TD or break a long one. Add that to the scarcity of having 32 starting RBs, I think prefering PPR is reasonable.I'm not asking for you to agree that PPR is better, but there is a reason that people prefer it.ETA: Bush and Westy do different things to create mismatches which is another reason getting PPR is warranted, as I discussed above.

Scarcity is part of the reason why RB even in PPR are worth more than WR. Why the heck do you have a love fest for WR shoot it might be easier for a rb to get that 1 yard td but its sure is a heck of alot easier for a wr to get the 30 yard td. Opportunities are why runningbacks are very high scorers I agree but thats by design in Football why do we want to fight it. I dont want to level of scoring between RB and WR. If you want WR to be worth as much as RB you need to level off scoring between RB and RB. The problem is peoples views on wrs needing to be a rb equal. THEY ARE NOT (ARI is a great example of this) and even ppr does not do that! I ll repeat this PPR does not balance the playing feild because RBs have too much descrepency in their own ranks. The big 3 are the big 3 because unlike wrs they are heads and tails above the others in their position. The only time PPR balances playing field is in later teirs like I have previously admitted. Making PPR a poor solution to the problem. This band aid only causes problems.The rankings showed just what I said. WR are not judged by RB they are judged by other wrs. Get this through your head. You shouldnt care what a wrs worth is based on total points scored. Base it on the difference in points compared to other wr in the field. YOU ARE JUDGING THE WRONG THINGS.. unless this is a flex league who cares about how many points a wr has vs a rb worry about how many points he has vs your opponents wrs. I dont care if you prefer PPR. Good for you. Problem is the excuses used are weak and you are judging wr vs rb. And since we are going down this slippery road. You are forgetting something important32 starting rbs = x points64 starting wrs = x pointswhich should be more important?WHY DO WR AND RB NEED TO BE =?

GSNVulture · Sep 23, 2006

Statorama said:
I think PPR came as a result of people having Marvin Harrison and seeing 10 Rec/100 yds/0 TD being worth less than Stacy Macks 1 rush/1 yard/1 TD line.I like PPR because it benefits my style of drafting preparation. I do a ton of research before my draft and I love having an advantage over some guy that shows up with the April Issue of some Fantasy Football mag. I check who gets "targeted" and who doesn't. It gives me an advantage over those that don't.I play in a non-ppr league, and it's fun because it's an IDP league. Again, the IDP (as well as auction) format gives me an extra dimension to exploit research-wise.PPR is probably for more serious FF players. The traditional non-PPR league where it's just a matter of hoping your top 3 RB's stay healthy is going to be popular forever due to the "bring a case of beer and an outdated football magazine to the draft" crowd. Let's face it, when you don't have to worry about receptions, coming up with a top 20 ranking of runningbacks to draft is pretty easy.PPR is here to stay because it benefits those that do research. That is also why it will never be more popular than non-ppr. There are far more casual players than there are serious players.The more complex the scoring system is, the more it benefits those that look beyond the boxscore.

Harrision 10 points Mack 6 in most performance leagues. I think your logic is somehow wrong.PPR for more serious FF players thats an elitist statement and a dumb one. Research (occationally luck example injuries) regardless is what wins. I still need to start wrs in non ppr leagues and their performance is rated vs my oppenents wrs.

bentley · Sep 23, 2006

We do PPR for receivers and tight ends and none for RBs. You talked about relative value in your original post, and the intent was to increase the relative value for receivers and, as a byproduct, tight ends. The top receivers in the league generally happen to be the guys that catch the most passes. So, by adding PPR to the yardage/TD points that they're already getting, you're creating greater separation between them and the middle of the road guys.

Statorama · Sep 23, 2006

GSNVulture said:
Statorama said:

I think PPR came as a result of people having Marvin Harrison and seeing 10 Rec/100 yds/0 TD being worth less than Stacy Macks 1 rush/1 yard/1 TD line.I like PPR because it benefits my style of drafting preparation. I do a ton of research before my draft and I love having an advantage over some guy that shows up with the April Issue of some Fantasy Football mag. I check who gets "targeted" and who doesn't. It gives me an advantage over those that don't.I play in a non-ppr league, and it's fun because it's an IDP league. Again, the IDP (as well as auction) format gives me an extra dimension to exploit research-wise.PPR is probably for more serious FF players. The traditional non-PPR league where it's just a matter of hoping your top 3 RB's stay healthy is going to be popular forever due to the "bring a case of beer and an outdated football magazine to the draft" crowd. Let's face it, when you don't have to worry about receptions, coming up with a top 20 ranking of runningbacks to draft is pretty easy.PPR is here to stay because it benefits those that do research. That is also why it will never be more popular than non-ppr. There are far more casual players than there are serious players.The more complex the scoring system is, the more it benefits those that look beyond the boxscore.

Click to expand...

Harrision 10 points Mack 6 in most performance leagues. I think your logic is somehow wrong.

Most leagues are 1pt per 20 yards, so his 5 points was less than Mack's 6

thayman · Sep 23, 2006

GSNVulture said:
Patoons said:

GSNVulture said:

Patoons said:

Kung Fu Hustler said:

I'd have to agree. If you have PPR why not have a category of PPHO, points per handoff, or PPS posints per snap?

Click to expand...

Because there are 32 starting RBs in the NFL and atleast 64 starting WRs. The point is to level the playing field. In addition, traditionally an RB will get around 20 carries. How many times do you see a WR even getting that many targets? There are many more receiving options as compared to rushing options (I'm assuming someone will point to an RBBC, but that clearly sets the value for the player).

If you look at the final rankings in a non-PPR vs. PPR from last season, it's pretty clear why many people favor PPR. It takes the RB injury luck out of the game and adds a little more skill/scouting to the hobby with the various options you can choose.

Click to expand...

Since you requested I respond to your other post. I didnt pull a partial quote I only responded to the one now on to the other. I m not selectively going to respond I actually want a reasonable discussion. So here goes.So I assume you feel a reception of 15 yards is the equivilant of a run for 5 then and give less points for receiving yards since they average more per reception than per rush. O wait I guess thats why yardage is calculated instead of number of carries. To help discriminate between that discrepency. PPR just goes a step farther and assumes a reception should be worth more than a rush even thou yardage 1-10 rush/rec allready does that.

I ve looked at final rankings and RB still top the list. The only thing it changes as far as I ve seen is mid teir with flex which isnt bad. But it does overvalue rbs that catch. A yard is a yard give credit where its due. Bush is a great example of this his place in PPR compared to performance alone is a big difference. How is what he does for his team more important than the people he passed up?

Click to expand...

I'm not sure I agree with the response to my logic of 32 starting RBs and 64 starting WRs. The scarcity along with there being many more opportunities for TDs (goalline, 1 rushing option), to break one, etc. for an RB is the reason that I think PPR is beneficial. It levels off the scoring.In a non-PPR last season, the top WR ranked 19th (S.Smith) and the top WR in PPR ranked 8th (Fitz). I think it is absolutely ridiculous that a guy like Smith (and even Fitz) would only finish 19th when he had 100+ catches, 1500+ yards at 12 TDs. To me a top ten is more than warranted for a season like that.

So looking at the rankings, 4 WRs ranked in the top 30 in a non-PPR (this is also with 4 pts/passing TD) and 9 in the top 30 in PPR with Rod Smith being the last in the 30. Having a season of 85 catches, 1100 yards and 6 TD's should warrant top 30 as opposed to ranked 73 overall, shouldn't it? I think so.

Taking a look at another NFL stat - 22 TD's is the NFL record for receiving touchdowns in a season and 27 rushing. That is 30 points in most fantasy leagues. On average, the top RB will be about 200 yards more in total rushing yards, or 20 points, based on NFL history. That's a 50 point difference, which would put Rod Smith around 30 in a non-PPR (without adjusting other WRs so maybe lower).

Adding a PPR, adjusts a players ranking to reflect his performance and appropriately account for his opportunities to score a TD or break a long one. Add that to the scarcity of having 32 starting RBs, I think prefering PPR is reasonable.

I'm not asking for you to agree that PPR is better, but there is a reason that people prefer it.

ETA: Bush and Westy do different things to create mismatches which is another reason getting PPR is warranted, as I discussed above.

Click to expand...

Scarcity is part of the reason why RB even in PPR are worth more than WR. Why the heck do you have a love fest for WR shoot it might be easier for a rb to get that 1 yard td but its sure is a heck of alot easier for a wr to get the 30 yard td. Opportunities are why runningbacks are very high scorers I agree but thats by design in Football why do we want to fight it. I dont want to level of scoring between RB and WR. If you want WR to be worth as much as RB you need to level off scoring between RB and RB. The problem is peoples views on wrs needing to be a rb equal. THEY ARE NOT (ARI is a great example of this) and even ppr does not do that! I ll repeat this PPR does not balance the playing feild because RBs have too much descrepency in their own ranks. The big 3 are the big 3 because unlike wrs they are heads and tails above the others in their position. The only time PPR balances playing field is in later teirs like I have previously admitted. Making PPR a poor solution to the problem. This band aid only causes problems.The rankings showed just what I said. WR are not judged by RB they are judged by other wrs. Get this through your head. You shouldnt care what a wrs worth is based on total points scored. Base it on the difference in points compared to other wr in the field.

YOU ARE JUDGING THE WRONG THINGS.. unless this is a flex league who cares about how many points a wr has vs a rb worry about how many points he has vs your opponents wrs.

I dont care if you prefer PPR. Good for you. Problem is the excuses used are weak and you are judging wr vs rb. And since we are going down this slippery road. You are forgetting something important

32 starting rbs = x points

64 starting wrs = x points

which should be more important?

WHY DO WR AND RB NEED TO BE =?

you are right the big 3 are the big 3 for being that much better. I look at ppr as causing seperation among WR's. Not making them equal to RB's, but causing a significant seperation from your 1st and 2nd tier WRs. So not trying to make WR=RB rather WR1>WR2. If that makes any sense.......

Kleck · Sep 23, 2006

Limp Ditka said:
I think PPR is an easy way to help even out the playing field between RBs and WRs.

I disagree. Here's some food for thought on the issue. Straight PPR won't do it, but modified versions may help.

Statorama · Sep 23, 2006

GSNVulture said:
PPR for more serious FF players thats an elitist statement and a dumb one. Research (occationally luck example injuries) regardless is what wins. I still need to start wrs in non ppr leagues and their performance is rated vs my oppenents wrs.

It's just two differing viewpoints. I'm of the opinion that 18/170/0 should be worth more than 3/60/2. That's why I seek out those leagues.You are correct that those that do research (regardless of league scoring types) have an advantage over those that don't. PPR just presents an additional avenue to exploit research wise.Lots of my FF buddies HATE IDP, but I love it. Same concept. It's easier to go "I'll take the Baltimore D" than it is to decide between Manny Lawson and Thomas Howard.Sounds like you hate PPR, and good for you. Stay away from those leagues. There are far more non-ppr leagues out there for you to join. I'm only relaying my experience in my involvement in PPR and non-PPR leagues.

GSNVulture · Sep 23, 2006

thayman said:
GSNVulture said:

thayman said:

Wow lots of good discusion here. GSN to answer your OP, I just look at PPR as just another facet of Fantasy Football. I'm in PPR, and non-PPR leagues I enjoy both, it adds a different dimension to my drafts that has to be accounted for. Much like a auction draft involves a different stategy as opposed to a serpentine draft.

I agree with you that sometimes PPR doesn't make much sense. However I love how a player like Bush can go in the first round in one league, and fall to the late second or third in a draft the next day.

Click to expand...

Shouldnt the best player the one that contributes the most be worth the most points! We are awarding people for football knowledge I hope not game manipulation. Bush going in two different spots tells alot. What is his real worth. Otherwise why are we generally rewarding things that players do that help teams win.

Click to expand...

well I could say that in a TD only league Peyton Manning is worth a top 5 pick. Different scoring formats require different stategies. You seem to like the Fantasy Football leagues where they are as close to the NFL as possible, if so I'd highly recomend checking this out http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...mp;hl=Formation it intrigued me quite a bit, but was a bit complex, and with my other leagues I didn't have the time to really but a full effor into it, but it looks pretty cool.

Thanks for the link I ll have to look into that

Kleck · Sep 23, 2006

Statorama said:
There are far more non-ppr leagues out there for you to join.

This may not be true. Before I released the article that I linked above I did some data gathering using a poll in the Shark Pool. I think it was nearly 70% responding that they use some sort of PPR in their leagues.

GSNVulture · Sep 23, 2006

bentley said:
We do PPR for receivers and tight ends and none for RBs. You talked about relative value in your original post, and the intent was to increase the relative value for receivers and, as a byproduct, tight ends. The top receivers in the league generally happen to be the guys that catch the most passes. So, by adding PPR to the yardage/TD points that they're already getting, you're creating greater separation between them and the middle of the road guys.

I would have to run the numbers but that is at least a logical start to addressing the problem.

GSNVulture · Sep 23, 2006

Shick! said:
Statorama said:

There are far more non-ppr leagues out there for you to join.

Click to expand...

This may not be true. Before I released the article that I linked above I did some data gathering using a poll in the Shark Pool. I think it was nearly 70% responding that they use some sort of PPR in their leagues.

I have noticed this as a hip trend as well and only address it because I fear its popularity is outweighing objectivity.

Statorama · Sep 23, 2006

Shick! said:
Statorama said:

There are far more non-ppr leagues out there for you to join.

Click to expand...

This may not be true. Before I released the article that I linked above I did some data gathering using a poll in the Shark Pool. I think it was nearly 70% responding that they use some sort of PPR in their leagues.

That's interesting. Thanks for the information.I checked around with the guys at work, looking for additional leagues to join, and they were primarily non-ppr leagues. Good to know that the "fad" is gaining popularity.Edit to add: I think that the numbers of the Shark Pool may be a bit skewed toward PPR, which "in my opinion" benefits "sharks" more than it does non-sharks. I think your casual joe-sixpack football fan doesn't want the headache of more research.

Kleck · Sep 23, 2006

Statorama said:
Shick! said:

Statorama said:

There are far more non-ppr leagues out there for you to join.

Click to expand...

This may not be true. Before I released the article that I linked above I did some data gathering using a poll in the Shark Pool. I think it was nearly 70% responding that they use some sort of PPR in their leagues.

Click to expand...

That's interesting. Thanks for the information.I checked around with the guys at work, looking for additional leagues to join, and they were primarily non-ppr leagues. Good to know that the "fad" is gaining popularity.

Edit to add: I think that the numbers of the Shark Pool may be a bit skewed toward PPR, which "in my opinion" benefits "sharks" more than it does non-sharks. I think your casual joe-sixpack football fan doesn't want the headache of more research.

Found itI agree that it could be very skewed. Even the wording of the thread title may have altered the results.

GSNVulture · Sep 23, 2006

Statorama said:
Shick! said:

Statorama said:

There are far more non-ppr leagues out there for you to join.

Click to expand...

This may not be true. Before I released the article that I linked above I did some data gathering using a poll in the Shark Pool. I think it was nearly 70% responding that they use some sort of PPR in their leagues.

Click to expand...

That's interesting. Thanks for the information.I checked around with the guys at work, looking for additional leagues to join, and they were primarily non-ppr leagues. Good to know that the "fad" is gaining popularity.Edit to add: I think that the numbers of the Shark Pool may be a bit skewed toward PPR, which "in my opinion" benefits "sharks" more than it does non-sharks. I think your casual joe-sixpack football fan doesn't want the headache of more research.

I dont see adding ppr as an additional headache in research. its a simple stat to add to the equation. How hard is it to guess #85 will have more receptions than most receivers. I fail to understand how this adds to much for casual fans.Great example is a work league I am currently in Casual league for fun only that uses PPR. no one has a dificult time understanding it.

Patoons · Sep 23, 2006

GSNVulture said:
YOU ARE JUDGING THE WRONG THINGS.. unless this is a flex league who cares about how many points a wr has vs a rb worry about how many points he has vs your opponents wrs. I dont care if you prefer PPR. Good for you. Problem is the excuses used are weak and you are judging wr vs rb. And since we are going down this slippery road. You are forgetting something important32 starting rbs = x points64 starting wrs = x pointswhich should be more important?WHY DO WR AND RB NEED TO BE =?

This is one of the main reason that I rarely post and traditionally prefer to lurk. You do not agree, so I am "judging the wrong things". I've given you stats and NFL play reasoning to back my opinion why WR/RB's should be given PPR, whether it be modified or straight across PPR. What I have stated is reasoning and supporting stats as to why I believe PPR is the better option, I have read your repititious opinion throughout the thread. WR vs. RB do matter when we're talking about draft strategy, trading, etc. regardless of whether or not there is a flex spot. It creates player value.

Patoons · Sep 23, 2006

GSNVulture said:
Great example is a work league I am currently in Casual league for fun only that uses PPR. no one has a dificult time understanding it.

I believe he was refering to research on targets, etc. (and not understanding) to find the value in trading for a player who may be undervalued in a PPR.Red zone targets are more valuable in a non-PPR, but maybe just as valuable as the rest of the WRs in a PPR. Researching targets, etc. may come more into play in a PPR. In a non-PPR you can look at a straight stat line for yards and TDs or even see that on the nightly ESPN highlights in order to value the player. This stuff is right in your face.

Statorama · Sep 23, 2006

I just see it as a natural evolution of the game. I'm sure plenty of people were making arguments when performance based scoring came about...and there's no way I'm going back to the caveman days of TD only leagues.

GSNVulture · Sep 23, 2006

Patoons said:
GSNVulture said:

YOU ARE JUDGING THE WRONG THINGS.. unless this is a flex league who cares about how many points a wr has vs a rb worry about how many points he has vs your opponents wrs. I dont care if you prefer PPR. Good for you. Problem is the excuses used are weak and you are judging wr vs rb. And since we are going down this slippery road. You are forgetting something important32 starting rbs = x points64 starting wrs = x pointswhich should be more important?WHY DO WR AND RB NEED TO BE =?

Click to expand...

This is one of the main reason that I rarely post and traditionally prefer to lurk. You do not agree, so I am "judging the wrong things". I've given you stats and NFL play reasoning to back my opinion why WR/RB's should be given PPR, whether it be modified or straight across PPR. What I have stated is reasoning and supporting stats as to why I believe PPR is the better option, I have read your repititious opinion throughout the thread. WR vs. RB do matter when we're talking about draft strategy, trading, etc. regardless of whether or not there is a flex spot. It creates player value.

By judging the wrong things I am saying that. RB are not = wr so why try. Unless the league has flex positions its not about what my rb scores vs your wr its about what my team does vs yours.position Me YOUqb 20 20rb1 35 20rb2 15 15wr1 24 38wr2 12 12te 8 8k 6 6d 10 10total 130 129your wr outscored my rb by 3 but it doesnt matter because what really matters and this is why rbs are more important in fantasy even in ppr leagues is my rb outscored yours by 15 while your wr only outscored mine by 14thats why the big 3 matter and thats a problem ppr doesnt address and never will because its positional thats why I was saying you were judging the wrong thingsI m sorry to sound like a ******* on the previous discusion that was not my intentThis is also why I want to look into ppr as a wr only option maybe it elivates wrs at the top more than I assume. problem is it elevates them all. opportunity is given to top end rbs more than top end wrs thats just football and we dont have a great way to counter that. But should we?

GSNVulture · Sep 23, 2006

Statorama said:
I just see it as a natural evolution of the game. I'm sure plenty of people were making arguments when performance based scoring came about...and there's no way I'm going back to the caveman days of TD only leagues.

I was a big proponent for performance I pushed for it all the way. It was easy to see the advantage of performance. Sanders 2k year with 3 tds being utterly worthless was a good example vs another rb that had 200 yards and 8 tds. Thats not a good reflection of talent or football worth.While PPR is a different demon as a whole. Specifically becasue its being added without PPCompletions or carry. Special attention to try to fix a problem in value by inflating total points of wr does not balance out gap of (opportunity) between top tier rbs and below which is why they are so valuable.Limited quanity = greater value hard to stop that

Patoons · Sep 23, 2006

GSNVulture said:
Patoons said:

GSNVulture said:

YOU ARE JUDGING THE WRONG THINGS.. unless this is a flex league who cares about how many points a wr has vs a rb worry about how many points he has vs your opponents wrs. I dont care if you prefer PPR. Good for you. Problem is the excuses used are weak and you are judging wr vs rb. And since we are going down this slippery road. You are forgetting something important32 starting rbs = x points64 starting wrs = x pointswhich should be more important?WHY DO WR AND RB NEED TO BE =?

Click to expand...

This is one of the main reason that I rarely post and traditionally prefer to lurk. You do not agree, so I am "judging the wrong things". I've given you stats and NFL play reasoning to back my opinion why WR/RB's should be given PPR, whether it be modified or straight across PPR. What I have stated is reasoning and supporting stats as to why I believe PPR is the better option, I have read your repititious opinion throughout the thread. WR vs. RB do matter when we're talking about draft strategy, trading, etc. regardless of whether or not there is a flex spot. It creates player value.

Click to expand...

By judging the wrong things I am saying that. RB are not = wr so why try. Unless the league has flex positions its not about what my rb scores vs your wr its about what my team does vs yours.position Me YOUqb 20 20rb1 35 20rb2 15 15wr1 24 38wr2 12 12te 8 8k 6 6d 10 10total 130 129your wr outscored my rb by 3 but it doesnt matter because what really matters and this is why rbs are more important in fantasy even in ppr leagues is my rb outscored yours by 15 while your wr only outscored mine by 14thats why the big 3 matter and thats a problem ppr doesnt address and never will because its positional thats why I was saying you were judging the wrong thingsI m sorry to sound like a ******* on the previous discusion that was not my intent

Again, when you're looking at trading and drafting WR PPR will matter.For example Chad Johnson was traded in my league for Tiki Barber in a PPR at the beginning to middle of last season. I don't think in a non-PPR that anyone would to that trade. PPR narrows the gap and allows teams to be flexible and increase the worth of WRs along the lines of their actual worth in the NFL.

GSNVulture · Sep 23, 2006

Patoons said:
GSNVulture said:

Patoons said:

GSNVulture said:

YOU ARE JUDGING THE WRONG THINGS.. unless this is a flex league who cares about how many points a wr has vs a rb worry about how many points he has vs your opponents wrs. I dont care if you prefer PPR. Good for you. Problem is the excuses used are weak and you are judging wr vs rb. And since we are going down this slippery road. You are forgetting something important32 starting rbs = x points64 starting wrs = x pointswhich should be more important?WHY DO WR AND RB NEED TO BE =?

Click to expand...

This is one of the main reason that I rarely post and traditionally prefer to lurk. You do not agree, so I am "judging the wrong things". I've given you stats and NFL play reasoning to back my opinion why WR/RB's should be given PPR, whether it be modified or straight across PPR. What I have stated is reasoning and supporting stats as to why I believe PPR is the better option, I have read your repititious opinion throughout the thread. WR vs. RB do matter when we're talking about draft strategy, trading, etc. regardless of whether or not there is a flex spot. It creates player value.

Click to expand...

By judging the wrong things I am saying that. RB are not = wr so why try. Unless the league has flex positions its not about what my rb scores vs your wr its about what my team does vs yours.position Me YOUqb 20 20rb1 35 20rb2 15 15wr1 24 38wr2 12 12te 8 8k 6 6d 10 10total 130 129your wr outscored my rb by 3 but it doesnt matter because what really matters and this is why rbs are more important in fantasy even in ppr leagues is my rb outscored yours by 15 while your wr only outscored mine by 14thats why the big 3 matter and thats a problem ppr doesnt address and never will because its positional thats why I was saying you were judging the wrong thingsI m sorry to sound like a ******* on the previous discusion that was not my intent

Click to expand...

Again, when you're looking at trading and drafting WR PPR will matter.For example Chad Johnson was traded in my league for Tiki Barber in a PPR at the beginning to middle of last season. I don't think in a non-PPR that anyone would to that trade. PPR narrows the gap and allows teams to be flexible and increase the worth of WRs along the lines of their actual worth in the NFL.

GO back to my previous break down of numbers. Team A gives Johnson worth 18 a game his replacement is worth 15 a gameTeam A receives Tiki who is worth 20 a game replacing a rb worth 14 a gameTeam A gains on average 3 points a gameTeam B receives Johnson worth 18 a game replacing a wr worth 8 a gameTeam B gives Tike worth 20 a game his replacement is worth 12 a gameTeam B gains on average 2 points a gameBoth teams win for the same reason upgrade was worth more than what they gave up. Thats why their value could be similar. Is Tiki suppose to be worth more because he is a 20 point a game player. Not neccessarily. But this is the problem people have with trades Tiki is worth more total points than Chad so they scream up and down thinking Team A got a steal.

Statorama · Sep 23, 2006

Some people prefer Apple Pie for dessert, some prefer Chocolate Cake.

Marek · Sep 23, 2006

(PPR) is a fad that guppies think works

GSNVulture said:
PPR for more serious FF players thats an elitist statement and a dumb one.

I was going to add something witty, but just quoting you is funny enough. For those who took him seriously enough to even reply, good posts. Some good explanations given.

ffgiant · Sep 23, 2006

From my experience, PPR will likely give more consistent scoring for your top players. Since yardage and touchdown more less predicatable than catches. It makes WR scoring more consistent. It also balance out the scoring difference WR and RB. PPR allows more strategy in drafting. More skill less luck.

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