I am still trying to make some sense of the 3-4 ILBs.
According to Jene in most 3-4 schemes the LILB is similar to the MLB in a 4-3 with the RILB shfting out as a ROLB in a 4-3 when the ROLB rushes the QB (most of the time).
Jene has said that most 3-4 defenses work this way with exception of Parcells 3-4.
What do you use as a basis for depth charts?
When looking at NFL.com depth charts I see Donnie Edwards as being listed as the RILB. Is this wrong?
If it is not wrong then is this not another instance of a 3-4 defense where the RILB is making more tackles than the LILB?
I am looking for clairification here and a complete list of which ILBs lineup where and should be considered more similar to the MLBs in thier respective schemes.
As I'm looking at this thread one year later, it's worth pointing out that anyone going back through this thread should check out my Mea Culpa thread with regard to 3-4 ILB from May 2007. Due to some faulty information and poor fact-checking/assumptions, the information about the LILB/RILB in this post and others in this thread is misleading.With my usual apology for going off a long
discussion...
Firstly, I'm not really a definitive source on these things. I'm learning just like everybody else. I started keeping a big folder of articles about general defensive concepts and schemes some years ago. I also have a bunch of random and poorly organized notes on specific schemes and defensive coaches that I've compiled from blogs, message boards, playbooks, etc. And I really like to pay attention to the defensive side of the ball when watching games.
I'll use the NFL.com gamebooks and Henry's depth charts as a default source but if I have any question about a wrinkle I like to see the defense myself. And I try to carefully watch the trends for players and teams with a specific scheme (3-4 hybrid, zone blitz, UM style 4-3, Tampa-2, etc). Then I make what I hope to be educated conclusions from my reading of other educated sources and watching the games and statlines.
The LILB/RILB issue is a conventional thing. Generally speaking, offenses are right-handed making the left side of the defense the strong side. It's really the ILB aligned to the strong side that has the superior value; the default for the gamebook is the LILB. I hadn't noticed the SD depth chart this season. I think it's wrong. I see Edwards lining up to the strong side (see note above) the majority of the time, as does Merriman, who's listed as the ROLB in this season's gamebooks. By "convention" they should be listed as the LILB and LOLB. The gamebooks listed them that way in 2005 (and 2004). Still, list right-left or whatever, you want the guy who aligns to the strong side in today's 3-4. In any given game, that may be the right side of the defense 80% of the time.
The difference between the Parcells version of the 3-4 and the other 3-4 schemes around the league is an old school - new school thing. Parcells ran a very traditional 3-4 -- every linemen with a two gap responsibility, both ILB big and plugger like. The newer versions (which includes Phillips and Lebeau 90s 3-4 defenses) often have one or more defensive linemen shaded with more of a one gap responsibility than those traditional 3-4 alignments did. When that happens, the gap assignments and responsibilities of the ILB behind them change. Often, it results in the two ILBs getting very similar responsibilities to a 4-3 MLB and WLB.
By way of example, here's a long explanation of how I arrive at these conclusions. Just so you don't think I'm pulling everything out of thin air. The devil really is in the details.
It's hard to get a great idea of how the front seven in any given defense are aligned on TV. But you can usually get a decent enough idea of whether a defensive lineman has two gap responsibility or not from the sideline view. Is he aligned helmet to helmet or on a shoulder? At the snap, does he explode off the ball into a gap or engage the blocker and read the play?
With Parcells out of the picture, this will become pretty much a moot point. Phillips has always been the most aggressive of the 3-4 coaches. Bruce Smith and Phil Hansen had big stat lines in Buffalo and Luis Castillo's projected 16 game stats are terrific. Phillips was even bold enough to put Patrick Kerney in a shaded 3-4 DE in Atlanta -- didn't work out as planned, but trying a 270 pound guy at DE in a traditional 3-4 would never have been considered. LeBeau will slant his guys at times and the Belichick defenses will as well.
I'm not really sophisticated enough to pick up on subtle changes in scheme, though, and that's where I hope to rely on other sources to help confirm my suspicions. For example, here's a quote from Bill Parcells last off-season discussing Akin Ayodele.
DallasCowboys.com (8-06)
In fact, Ayodele reminds Parcells of a few players he coached with the New York Giants when they were winning Super Bowl, mostly thanks to their stout defense.
"We're going to play him at the inside linebacker position on the weak side," Parcells said of Ayodele. "That's the position Harry Carson played when Carl [banks] was playing, and that is what we expect to be our high-producing, tackling machine, so to speak. Because in the defense that we play, the 3-4, the teams really don't run to the weak side very effectively against the 3-4. There are not that many schemes that they employ versus the 3-4 on the weak side.
"So as a result, a lot of the plays are going away from that player, and it allows him to run. He's going to get the opportunity tobe in pursuit quickly a lot of the time, and so anyone that is in that pursuit quickly is expected to produce at a high level. That's really where we're going to try to play him, where we played Harry and for a little while Pepper [Johnson], and Marvin Jones when I was with the Jets, guys like that who could run and hit pretty well."
I'm always looking out for quotes like this. I had been trying to understand why a LILB like Bradie James was producing so relatively poorly in the boxscores in 04 and 05. I was in IDP leagues (and owned Pepper Johnson and Marvin Jones) but couldn't have told you which was the RILB or the LILB. I'd seen Parcells calling Dat Nguyen a "Jack"LB in 2003 but didn't know enough back then to understand what all that meant. Those paragraphs (and the rest of that article) help to make sense of all those issues.
There wasn't much discussion about the nuts and bolts of Phillips' 3-4 in the local SD news media over the past three seasons. I posted this Phillips quote from the Dallas news rags last week a couple of posts above. It meshes with what we can see during the games and statlines from Phillips' linemen.
Phillips discussing his own scheme this week:
"The 'Phillips 3-4' is a little bit different than some of the other ones," Phillips said. "Our defensive linemen have the chance to rush the passer. [it's] a lot of zone blitzing. What I try to do is put my best players in position to make plays. Then they make plays for you."
At this point, until we see or read differently, I'd expect the strong side ILB to be the target in all the current 3-4 schemes (see note above). At some point, though, I think you're going to see some of the big time talented weak side ILBs making some noise in the boxscore and confusing the picture some. I just think guys like Jonathan Vilma and D'Qwell Jackson are too talented not to impact the boxscores.
In Dallas, it's going to be hard not to be very high on Bradie James for 2007. From Donnie Edwards (see note above) to James Farrior to Andra Davis, LILBs in the newer 3-4 schemes have been very safe bets to produce LB2 numbers in standard leagues. That'd be a significant jump in value for a guy who was an inconsistent, borderline LB3 option over the past two seasons in Parcells scheme.
And I think it's possible that the best breakout 3-4 DE candidate (the Orpheus Roye, Aaron Smith, Ty Warren of 2007) ends up being whomever aligns at RDE in front of Demarcus Ware. Neither Chris Canty nor Marcus Spears have the pass rush capability that Luis Castillo has, though, so it's not a lock. But, like Castillo does in front of Merriman, somebody will benefit from teams looking over his shoulder to spy Ware coming off the edge.
Will be somewhat scoring system dependent, but Ware's pass rush responsibility will certainly increase. May not be so good for his other boxscore columns, though, and his 12 sack 2006 season doesn't leave much room for skyrocketing value. Merriman had only 33 solo tackles (not counting sacks) last season and needed every one of his 16 sacks to produce big value.
