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JaMarcus Russell vs. Brady Quinn (1 Viewer)

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Bloom's 100 thread For a great look at the Top 100 fantasy prospects available in the 2007 NFL draft check out the link. There is a wealth of information and healthy conversation in that thread. I did not want to hijack Bloom's work with this debate and elected to start this specific topic thread.

Sigmund Bloom said:
4) JaMarcus Russell, QB, LSU - He's ahead of the WRs because I'm not sure there's a future top 15 WR in the bunch. Russell has the strength, size, mobility, and arm to be a game breaker in the mold of Culpepper or Roethlisberger, but better.

10) Brady Quinn, QB, Notre Dame - I just see too much of Eli in Quinn. He should put up nice numbers (Eli does), but are you happy if Eli is the starting QB on your dynasty team right now? Can you trade him for much? Probably not. Quinn has shown the ability to be a prolific passer, but he also does not rise to the occasion against tough defenses, and they only get tougher from here. Still, not a bad first round value pick if you are looking to rebuild at QB.
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It's not just Bloom who feels this way, but I just can't help feeling a certain amount of Ryan Leaf vs. Peyton Manning going on with the majority of FBG's this offseason in regards to JaMarcus Russell and Brady Quinn's NFL prospects. The parallels are eerily similar. I'm not saying the players involved this time around will prove to be such polar opposites (all-time bust vs. all-time great) but I'm very confident on which player will be the better NFL player...and it certainly isn't Russell.Is there a group out there who feels the same way or am I just off the mark on my rankings of the top 2 QB prospects this year?

 
Is this like the second Leaf referring thread in 2 weeks?......please let Mr. Leaf fade away with no more mentioning..... :yes:

 
To me the apt comparison is Vick v. Brees. We have a white Q.B. with less than prototypical athletic ability but with great understanding of the game due to four years of solid coaching versus a black Q.B. with outstanding measureables but whose coaching has been less and who therefore is a greater unkown with a theoretically greater upside since we have not seen him coached. This draft will bring out the black v. white crowd, the athlete v. leader crowd, the coached v. uncoached crowd, as well as the golden dome haters v, the our lady of victory crowd.

 
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Ditkaless Wonders said:
To me the apt comparison is Vick v. Brees. We have a white Q.B. with less than prototypical athletic ability but with great understanding of the game due to four years of solid coaching versus a black Q.B. with outstanding measureables but whose coaching has been less and who therefore is a greater unkown with a theoretically greater upside since we have not seen him coached. This draft will bring out the black v. white crowd, the athlete v. leader crowd, the coached v. uncoached crowd, as well as the golden dome haters v, the our lady of victory crowd.
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:mellow: can we make the Tim Couch / Akili Smith comparison? Or is it Couch/McNabb?Or McNair / Collins? :yes:
 
Anyone that thinks Russell will be a better QB than Quinn in the NFL has no clue about football. That having been said, Oakland may very well take Russell #1 overall.

 
2006

Russell

67.8 %

9.15 YPA

3129 YARDS

28 TD

8 INT

167.03 RATING

Quinn

61.9 %

7.34 YPA

3426 YARDS

37 TD

7 INT

146.65 RATING

Edit to add passing yards

 
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Ditkaless Wonders said:
To me the apt comparison is Vick v. Brees. We have a white Q.B. with less than prototypical athletic ability but with great understanding of the game due to four years of solid coaching versus a black Q.B. with outstanding measureables but whose coaching has been less and who therefore is a greater unkown with a theoretically greater upside since we have not seen him coached. This draft will bring out the black v. white crowd, the athlete v. leader crowd, the coached v. uncoached crowd, as well as the golden dome haters v, the our lady of victory crowd.
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. . . clean versus unclean, articulate versus notspeaksogood, . . .
 
It looks like they played about the same, except Quinn played against mostly questionable talent and played very poorly against good teams, while Russell played regularly against good defensive football teams. I didn't see either play in non-primetime type games though.

 
One difference between Leaf and Russell is that Jamarcus played in the SEC, which is a factory for NFL defensive talent.

 
Another difference between Leaf and Russell IMO is maturity.

If you heard Bill Polian on Rome yesterday, he pointed out the obvious maturity difference between Manning and Leaf at the time. I think Russell also is more mature and ready to do what it takes to be an NFL QB.

 
Sigmund Bloom said:
perry147 said:
Quinn> Russell.Watch the games people.
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marklot said:
Anyone that thinks Russell will be a better QB than Quinn in the NFL has no clue about football. That having been said, Oakland may very well take Russell #1 overall.
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Instead of just calling us stupid, tell us WHY Quinn will be better than Russell.
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Russell is overrated due to his size.He has terrible work ethic. He has constantly come into camp at LSU 15-20lbs overweight. In 11 games against ranked teams over the past two seasons, JaMarcus Russell threw 13 touchdown passes and 11 interceptions. He threw 30 touchdowns and six interceptions against everyone else. Notre Dame was 8-6 in 14 games against ranked opponents with Quinn as QB, with Quinn throwing for 29 touchdowns and 12 interceptions.Notre Dame this year went 2-3 against ranked opponents (Michigan State was ranked when they played), and Quinn threw 16 TDs and 6 interceptions.Best defense Russell played in 06?vs. Florida24-41228 yards1 TD3 INT58.5 completion percentageThe fact he gets fat in the offseason, played very average against good competition, and largely beat up crappy teams during his career as a QB. Answer me this, you swap his Bowl game, with the game against Florida. Russell wouldn't even be a 1st rnd pick. They both happened. Because his good game was his last game, that somehow suddenly vaults him up the rankings? If he would have had at 1 td 3 int game against florida in a bowl game, we'd all be talking about how he needs another year, how raw he is, how he's not ready for the NFL.But he blows out a crappy team, and now he's great to take on the NFL? The best defenses he played, he struggled. If he was 6'1 200 he'd be a 2nd day project pick. 6'6 260, that doesn't help him read defenses.
 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
To me the apt comparison is Vick v. Brees. We have a white Q.B. with less than prototypical athletic ability but with great understanding of the game due to four years of solid coaching versus a black Q.B. with outstanding measureables but whose coaching has been less and who therefore is a greater unkown with a theoretically greater upside since we have not seen him coached. This draft will bring out the black v. white crowd, the athlete v. leader crowd, the coached v. uncoached crowd, as well as the golden dome haters v, the our lady of victory crowd.
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One thing we've discovered in the Shark Pool over the years: discussing black vs. white is a disaster every time. Of course that's an aspect that applies to these two players but it plays no role in this debate...let's just leave that discussion to certain radio personalities. :loco: One assertion that some are making: Russell is the better athlete. Brady Quinn IS the superior athlete and had the superior coaching in college. These directly coincide with two of the reasons he's much better equipped to succeed in the NFL:1) He has already digested an NFL playbook. This should give him an early advantage in training camp and on the field when defenses show various looks. It will definitely play a role in making in season and in game adjustments.2) Brady's ability to make plays in and out of the pocket is an element that his opponents will have to account for. Quinn is a pocket passer AND can make plays with his feet. One of these traits helps but having both can make a QB very dangerous. One of his greatest strengths is his ability to move around the pocket, keeping plays alive. His arm is above average and he can get the ball down the field or squeeze a pass into small windows.The arm strength comparison is a loaded one. Obviously Russell has one of the best arms to come out of college in a while. By comparison Brady Quinn suffers but his arm strength is above average...but he also has the ability to keep plays alive. This trait is one that I do not believe Russell possesses. Sure Russell's got the arm but can he move around in the pocket and deliver the ball with defenders in his face? We already know Russell could sit in the pocket and unload a throw 60+ yards down the field when the pocket is clean. The pocket just isn't clean that often in the NFL (especially in Oakland) and the wide receivers rarely have the type of separation that Doucet, Davis and Bowe gained for him at LSU.
 
gump said:
One difference between Leaf and Russell is that Jamarcus played in the SEC, which is a factory for NFL defensive talent.
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And when he played the elite Ds this year, he sucked. Thanks for posting though.vs. Auburn20-35269 yards0 TD0 INT57.1 Completion Percentagevs. Florida24-41228 yards1 TD3 INT58.5 completion percentage
 
About JaMarcus Russell.

I live in New Orleans and have close ties to LSU so here is the real on him: Before the season started Russell reported to practice overweight. He was a counselor last summer at the Manning Academy (camp hosted by Peyton, Eli, and Archie). At that camp he was a balloon at a listed 275 lbs. I saw him and he looked closer to 300 than 250. He started the season overweight and played his way down to his current 258 lbs. His poor play at the beginning of the season was because he wasn't in shape. He got better and better as the season went on and the weight went down. I think he realized he was eating away his future. Early on he had trouble escaping the pass rush and later in season he was doing that Vince Young stuff. He should definitely be our top pick and I see him getting into better shape than he is right now and playing even better than we saw in the Sugar Bowl.

 
I think it is much more like last year with Young vs Leinart. Young had more measurables but Leinart was more polished. I don't think russell is on the level of young nor do I think Quinn is on the level of Leinart.

 
billyjoe said:
gump said:
One difference between Leaf and Russell is that Jamarcus played in the SEC, which is a factory for NFL defensive talent.
Click to expand...
And when he played the elite Ds this year, he sucked. Thanks for posting though.vs. Auburn20-35269 yards0 TD0 INT57.1 Completion Percentagevs. Florida24-41228 yards1 TD3 INT58.5 completion percentage
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And thanks for showing your short-sightedness.The SEC has 12 teams. Alabama, for instance, had the #1 defense in the country in 2005. Look a little deeper.
 
billyjoe said:
gump said:
One difference between Leaf and Russell is that Jamarcus played in the SEC, which is a factory for NFL defensive talent.
Click to expand...
And when he played the elite Ds this year, he sucked. Thanks for posting though.vs. Auburn20-35269 yards0 TD0 INT57.1 Completion Percentagevs. Florida24-41228 yards1 TD3 INT58.5 completion percentage
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To be fair can you post how Quinn has done against elite defenses.
 
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gump said:
billyjoe said:
gump said:
One difference between Leaf and Russell is that Jamarcus played in the SEC, which is a factory for NFL defensive talent.
Click to expand...
And when he played the elite Ds this year, he sucked. Thanks for posting though.vs. Auburn20-35269 yards0 TD0 INT57.1 Completion Percentagevs. Florida24-41228 yards1 TD3 INT58.5 completion percentage
Click to expand...
And thanks for showing your short-sightedness.The SEC has 12 teams. Alabama, for instance, had the #1 defense in the country in 2005. Look a little deeper.
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You're welcome.Good for Alabama in 2005. What does that have to do with Russell?He stunk against Florida/Auburn in 2006. So because he plays in the SEC, he's a lock to be a great pro QB? Since when? It's a fact he laregly struggled against ranked teams. Again, what's your point? SEC is great, thanks for sharing.
 
Yenrub said:
billyjoe said:
gump said:
One difference between Leaf and Russell is that Jamarcus played in the SEC, which is a factory for NFL defensive talent.
Click to expand...
And when he played the elite Ds this year, he sucked. Thanks for posting though.vs. Auburn20-35269 yards0 TD0 INT57.1 Completion Percentagevs. Florida24-41228 yards1 TD3 INT58.5 completion percentage
Click to expand...
To be fair can you post how Quinn has done against elite defenses.
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I looked up myselfVs. Michigan 21-47 loss24 of 48 for 234 yards3 TD / 3 INT50% completion 99.08 ratingVs. LSU (bowl game)14-41 loss15-35 for 148 yards 2 TD/ 2 INT42.9% completion :goodposting: 85.81 rating
 
billyjoe said:
gump said:
One difference between Leaf and Russell is that Jamarcus played in the SEC, which is a factory for NFL defensive talent.
Click to expand...
And when he played the elite Ds this year, he sucked. Thanks for posting though.vs. Auburn20-35269 yards0 TD0 INT57.1 Completion Percentagevs. Florida24-41228 yards1 TD3 INT58.5 completion percentage
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Great research, :goodposting: :hifive: Lets look at some games for Quinn against a good defense, It definetely took alot of looking to find any good defenses.com att yds comp% lg td int15 35 148 42.9 24 2 2 against LSU24 48 234 50.0 33 3 3 against MichQuinn could not hit the broad side of a barn! Quinn was coached well By Weiss, but Lets not forget that Jamarcus had a decent coach in Jimbo fisher. He is not as good as weiss, but he has done a great job with LSU quarterbacks. Jamarcus has more talent than Quinn, but we will see who works harder to be the best they can be.
 
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Yenrub said:
billyjoe said:
gump said:
One difference between Leaf and Russell is that Jamarcus played in the SEC, which is a factory for NFL defensive talent.
Click to expand...
And when he played the elite Ds this year, he sucked. Thanks for posting though.vs. Auburn20-35269 yards0 TD0 INT57.1 Completion Percentagevs. Florida24-41228 yards1 TD3 INT58.5 completion percentage
Click to expand...
To be fair can you post how Quinn has done against elite defenses.
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Brady Quinn 2 – 3 vs ranked teamsIn the losesvs Michigan att 48 comp 24 50.0% td 3 int 3vs USC 45 22 48.9% 3 0vs LSU 35 15 42.9% 2 2In 3 loses 128 61 47.6% 8 5Good point. I don't like Quinn either.
 
The main reason I do not like Russell is because of the weight problem and the type offense he was in at LSU.

Quinn was with Weiss and seems to be much better at reading defenses and running a pro offense.

Russell indeed has rocket arm but that is one of the factors that I think is overrated in evaluating QBs for the NFL game; I think a much better indicator of success in the NFL is ability to make quick decisions and read defenses.

All this is though is speculation because the most important variable in deciding how well a QB it going to play in the NFL is ..(Drum roll please).........THE TEAM THAT DRAFTS HIM.

Let me put it to you this way I think Quinn is better but if Quinn is drafted by the Raiders I will not be drafting him - same goes for the Texans and Browns.

 
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I have a longer list of thoughts in the Bloom 100 thread on Russell, but I'll repeat here that his (supposed) lack of ability to read defenses was a common theme among the LSU fan base until this season, but the coaching staff, especially Jimbo Fisher, always said he was great at making reads and adjustments at the line of scrimmage; in fact Fisher said he was the best QB at the line of scrimmage that he'd ever had at LSU. I think Russell's biggest challenge is going to be timing. Maybe because of his arm strength he's gotten away with throwing late his whole career, but he often waits too long for receivers to come out of their breaks or break open down the field. I think at first he'll have some INTs and broken up passes against NFL DBs until his timing improves, but I think NFL coaching will bring him around just fine. His ability to pull out wins in big games against SEC rivals gives him some "it" factor, and his athleticism has always made him a playmaker. He'll often get the "raw" tag but I don't think that's accurate. I do, however, expect him to take a little bit of time to develop as an NFL QB.

I do agree that Quinn seems more polished. I didn't get to see him as much this season. His fall down the charts (if that happens) may land him in a good spot where he can be productive. His play against good defenses should be a red flag, in my opinion, but there is certainly some NFL-readiness appeal to him, and he seems underrated as an athlete. There's something about Quinn that bugs me, but I think it has more to do with his ability to win in the NFL than his ability to put up stats. Maybe he'll turn out to be one those guys who's a better FF QB than anything else.

 
I don't see the Leaf/Manning comparisons at all.

This is definitely a poor man's Young vs. Leinart debate.

 
billyjoe said:
gump said:
billyjoe said:
gump said:
One difference between Leaf and Russell is that Jamarcus played in the SEC, which is a factory for NFL defensive talent.
Click to expand...
And when he played the elite Ds this year, he sucked. Thanks for posting though.vs. Auburn

20-35

269 yards

0 TD

0 INT

57.1 Completion Percentage

vs. Florida

24-41

228 yards

1 TD

3 INT

58.5 completion percentage
Click to expand...
And thanks for showing your short-sightedness.The SEC has 12 teams. Alabama, for instance, had the #1 defense in the country in 2005.

Look a little deeper.
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You're welcome.Good for Alabama in 2005. What does that have to do with Russell?

He stunk against Florida/Auburn in 2006. So because he plays in the SEC, he's a lock to be a great pro QB? Since when?

It's a fact he laregly struggled against ranked teams. Again, what's your point? SEC is great, thanks for sharing.
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:pics: Please read this carefully before attacking...He had a QB rating of 90, and threw the game-winning bullet for a TD, while on the move, against the #1 defense in the country...in Tuscaloosa...against the #3 team in the country at the time.

He also played 9 games/year in the what is regarded as the toughest defensive conference in the country.

When did RYAN LEAF do that?

 
perry147 said:
The main reason I do not like Russell is because of the weight problem and the type offense he was in at LSU.Quinn was with Weiss and seems to be much better at reading defenses and running a pro offense.Russell indeed has rocket arm but that is one of the factors that I think is overrated in evaluating QBs for the NFL game; I think a much better indicator of success in the NFL is ability to make quick decisions and read defenses.All this is though is speculation because the most important variable in deciding how well a QB it going to play in the NFL is ..(Drum roll please).........THE TEAM THAT DRAFTS HIM.Let me put it to you this way I think Quinn is better but if Quinn is drafted by the Raiders I will not be drafting him - same goes for the Texans and Browns.
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I think you're right. Quinn ending up with good WRs and a good coach would make him a better QB. He needs that more than Russell does, who could bust or boom either way. I don't see Quinn ever carrying an offense, while Russell might.
 
billyjoe said:
Sigmund Bloom said:
perry147 said:
Quinn> Russell.Watch the games people.
Click to expand...
marklot said:
Anyone that thinks Russell will be a better QB than Quinn in the NFL has no clue about football. That having been said, Oakland may very well take Russell #1 overall.
Click to expand...
Instead of just calling us stupid, tell us WHY Quinn will be better than Russell.
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Russell is overrated due to his size.He has terrible work ethic. He has constantly come into camp at LSU 15-20lbs overweight. In 11 games against ranked teams over the past two seasons, JaMarcus Russell threw 13 touchdown passes and 11 interceptions. He threw 30 touchdowns and six interceptions against everyone else. Notre Dame was 8-6 in 14 games against ranked opponents with Quinn as QB, with Quinn throwing for 29 touchdowns and 12 interceptions.Notre Dame this year went 2-3 against ranked opponents (Michigan State was ranked when they played), and Quinn threw 16 TDs and 6 interceptions.Best defense Russell played in 06?vs. Florida24-41228 yards1 TD3 INT58.5 completion percentageThe fact he gets fat in the offseason, played very average against good competition, and largely beat up crappy teams during his career as a QB. Answer me this, you swap his Bowl game, with the game against Florida. Russell wouldn't even be a 1st rnd pick. They both happened. Because his good game was his last game, that somehow suddenly vaults him up the rankings? If he would have had at 1 td 3 int game against florida in a bowl game, we'd all be talking about how he needs another year, how raw he is, how he's not ready for the NFL.But he blows out a crappy team, and now he's great to take on the NFL? The best defenses he played, he struggled. If he was 6'1 200 he'd be a 2nd day project pick. 6'6 260, that doesn't help him read defenses.
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:banned: thank you. everyone knocks quinn not performing in big games but i knew russell had some downer games this year (i was just too lazy too look it up). ND was overrated this year, with a very slow defense. Russell looking good against the Irish defense doesnt mean anything, UNC looked good against the ND defense.
 
flufhed said:
I don't see the Leaf/Manning comparisons at all.

This is definitely a poor man's Young vs. Leinart debate.
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The Leaf/Manning comparisons come from...some are stretches, most are notJaMarcus Russell/Ryan Leaf

- weight issues

- rocket arm, but can he read defenses?

- praised for big showing in final bowl game but didn't get it done against the best defenses he faced

- not regarded as a top 10 NFL pick entering their final college season, but ended up being selected near/at the top

- bacame the darling of FBG's who "hated" on the other QB (Manning/Quinn) :goodposting:

Brady Quinn/Peyton Manning

- heralded college career with a high national profile

- entered their final seaosn of college as the Heisman frontrunner. finished 2nd for the award...to a player from the Big10 :bag:

- struggled to earn respect from fans after their college career was complete

- labeled as a smart QB who should be NFL ready sooner than most NFL QB prospects

- arm strength questioned by those who only compared it to the other QB (Leaf/Russell)

- turns out to be the much better NFL player :)

I stated in the initial post of this thread that I do not expect JaMarcus Russell to be as big of a bust as Ryan Leaf ended up. Nor do I expect Brady Quinn to be as great of a player as Peyton Manning is. Just that their situations post college/pre draft are comparible to me.

 
I think the big difference between Leaf and Russell is Russell's a good kid and Leaf turned out to be...um....crazy. :thumbup:

 
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perry147 said:
Let me put it to you this way I think Quinn is better but if Quinn is drafted by the Raiders I will not be drafting him - same goes for the Texans and Browns.
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Assuming for OL reasons. Do remember, the Browns lost 3 or so OL to injury/retirement in the preseason. They should be better next year.
 
draino said:
billyjoe said:
gump said:
One difference between Leaf and Russell is that Jamarcus played in the SEC, which is a factory for NFL defensive talent.
Click to expand...
And when he played the elite Ds this year, he sucked. Thanks for posting though.vs. Auburn

20-35

269 yards

0 TD

0 INT

57.1 Completion Percentage

vs. Florida

24-41

228 yards

1 TD

3 INT

58.5 completion percentage
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Great research, :lmao: :no: Lets look at some games for Quinn against a good defense, It definetely took alot of looking to find any good defenses.

com att yds comp% lg td int

15 35 148 42.9 24 2 2 against LSU

24 48 234 50.0 33 3 3 against Mich

Quinn could not hit the broad side of a barn!

Quinn was coached well By Weiss, but Lets not forget that Jamarcus had a decent coach in Jimbo fisher. He is not as good as weiss, but he has done a great job with LSU quarterbacks. Jamarcus has more talent than Quinn, but we will see who works harder to be the best they can be.
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Not the entire story. I won't make excuses for every pass, but in the bowl game Rhema McKnight especially developed a case of the dropsies. Quinn usually starts games a little too amped up and his passes sail on the underneath routes.This past year our offensive line suffered bigger losses than we realized coming into the season. Due to lack of depth from poor OL recruiting under Willingham, Quinn was constantly running for his life. That really started with the Michigan game. He was probably as shocked as anyone back there at how fast the Michigan DL got in his face from moment one, especially because of poor guard play.

Give Quinn a decent amount of time in the pocket and he's a very solid QB. If he goes to the Texans I fear what'll happen to him, and I'm a Texans fan :shock: Watch him shine at the combine though. That kid is a workout fiend and was showing up some of the linemen in the weight room at ND.

 
I have been a big Russell advocate for a while. I have touted him as a top ten pick since early September, when many weren't sure he was even a first rounder. I really think that he will succeed. Still, I am unsure why we have to say one QB is going to much better that the other. They could both be good.

I think many people's opinion of Quinn is simply slanted by the fact that he plays for an overhyped ND team. That isn't his fault. Also, I think that his team was simply outmatched in some games that ND lost. The losses would have been no surprise or detriment to Quinn's stock if people had a more realistic opinion of that team. ND's Oline was pourous, and their D could not stop anyone with better than marginal talent. Cutler got drafted high and performed well this year despite losing a ton and having some miserable games against good competition. I think if you look at Quinn objectively, you see some great things, some good things and has some flaws.

I think he has the best and most consistent footwork that I have seen in a college QB. I think that he has great ball handling on the play action. I think that he will be in the upper third in the NFL immediately in those areas. I think his experience with an NFL style playbook will ease his transition. I think that his arm strength will be average to slightly above average for a first round draft prospect. While he has disappointed some in big games, he never gives up or gives in. ND was a car crash before 2005.

On the negative side, his ball sails a bit under pressure, although many good QB's struggle under pressure as well. I like Quinn a good bit. His stock was very high after his junior season, and in my opinion, if you look at his play, he did not regress.

 
DAG said:
I think the big difference between Leaf and Russell is Russell's a good kid and Leaf turned out to be...um....crazy. :lmao:
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To me Leaf failed because of the mental part of the game, not the physical. From what I have read on both of these QB's is that they both have the mental makeup to play in the NFL. After watching a ESPN special on Leaf this past weekend, it seems he has grown up and is not the same spoiled kid that could not handle the pressure of the $$ and the makeup of a NFL QB. But to me if these two QB's were in last years class they would not even be mentioned with the top 3. And to be honest I am not sure they would be ahead of Kellen Clemons..IMO
 
perry147 said:
Interesting Article on Quinn (maybe Bloom is right)

Quinn is a fraud
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All this tells me is that history is repeating itself...and if Al Davis doesn't learn from history he'll repaet it on April 28th by selecting the wrong QB based on arm strength instead of the "product of the system" with all the question marks.
Manning vs. Leaf was one of the biggest debates in the league, and many scouts were convinced that Leaf was the better long-range prospect.

In fact, when he arrived in Indianapolis, Polian discovered that the Colts scouts favored Leaf.

"I had seen him [Manning] play twice while I was looking at other guys from Tennessee,'' recalled Polian, who had previously built the Bills and Panthers into playoff teams. "I came away very impressed. When we started the scouting process, for whatever reason, the [Colts] scouts had him far lower than I did in my mind. Keep in mind, it was not my scouting staff.''

Polian had a lot of homework to do before making a decision of this magnitude. He looked at every pass Manning and Leaf threw in college.

"What I remember distinctly was that there was so much noise [debate in the league and the media] surrounding the two players, and it seemed to me that everything about Peyton was negative and everything about Leaf was positive,'' Polian said. "It didn't affect what we were doing, but there was so much interest in the pick.''

As the research began, one point was obvious. Both players were talented.

"The conventional wisdom was that Leaf had a much stronger arm and was a much better athlete and was stronger physically and that Leaf had the much better upside because Peyton was somehow a 'product of the system.'" Polian said. "To this day, I can't figure out what that means. But you people in the media repeated it over and over again.''
Click to expand...
Sound familiar?
 
trader jake said:
perry147 said:
Interesting Article on Quinn (maybe Bloom is right)

Quinn is a fraud
Click to expand...
All this tells me is that history is repeating itself...and if Al Davis doesn't learn from history he'll repaet it on April 28th by selecting the wrong QB based on arm strength instead of the "product of the system" with all the question marks.
Manning vs. Leaf was one of the biggest debates in the league, and many scouts were convinced that Leaf was the better long-range prospect.

In fact, when he arrived in Indianapolis, Polian discovered that the Colts scouts favored Leaf.

"I had seen him [Manning] play twice while I was looking at other guys from Tennessee,'' recalled Polian, who had previously built the Bills and Panthers into playoff teams. "I came away very impressed. When we started the scouting process, for whatever reason, the [Colts] scouts had him far lower than I did in my mind. Keep in mind, it was not my scouting staff.''

Polian had a lot of homework to do before making a decision of this magnitude. He looked at every pass Manning and Leaf threw in college.

"What I remember distinctly was that there was so much noise [debate in the league and the media] surrounding the two players, and it seemed to me that everything about Peyton was negative and everything about Leaf was positive,'' Polian said. "It didn't affect what we were doing, but there was so much interest in the pick.''

As the research began, one point was obvious. Both players were talented.

"The conventional wisdom was that Leaf had a much stronger arm and was a much better athlete and was stronger physically and that Leaf had the much better upside because Peyton was somehow a 'product of the system.'" Polian said. "To this day, I can't figure out what that means. But you people in the media repeated it over and over again.''
Click to expand...
Sound familiar?
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Sounds like you're looking to shoehorn things into your Leaf=Russell theory.
 
massraider said:
Sounds like you're looking to shoehorn things into your Leaf=Russell theory.
Click to expand...
Solid point. From all accounts (unlike Leaf) Russell seems to be a good kid but his weight issues and questionable work ethic should worry some...and it doesn't seem to be. Meanwhile, Quinn is getting bashed right and left for really minor flaws.In the first post of the thread I stated that Russell will not be an all-time bust like Leaf and that Quinn will not be an all-time great like Manning. The question of who the better NFL quarterback will be is easy...and the Raiders sound poised to make the wrong choice.
 
trader jake said:
massraider said:
Sounds like you're looking to shoehorn things into your Leaf=Russell theory.
Click to expand...
Solid point. From all accounts (unlike Leaf) Russell seems to be a good kid but his weight issues and questionable work ethic should worry some...and it doesn't seem to be. Meanwhile, Quinn is getting bashed right and left for really minor flaws.
Click to expand...
Jamarcus is a junior, so he wasn't watched as closely as Quinn from Day 1. Stands to reason that people aren't all over him in a negative way like they are with Quinn. Berween now and the draft tho, rest assured, there will be plenty of negatives listed about him. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say they will continue to be of the unprovable, unmeasureable kind.
In the first post of the thread I stated that Russell will not be an all-time bust like Leaf and that Quinn will not be an all-time great like Manning. The question of who the better NFL quarterback will be is easy...and the Raiders sound poised to make the wrong choice.
Click to expand...
No offense, I think this is a ridiculous statement. It wasn't easy for everyone to see the differences between Manning and Leaf, yet it should be between these two, when you even admit they are closer?Yeah, I read your first post, but I also read this:

All this tells me is that history is repeating itself...and if Al Davis doesn't learn from history he'll repaet it on April 28th by selecting the wrong QB based on arm strength instead of the "product of the system" with all the question marks.
Click to expand...
If Al Davis doesn't draft Russell because of Ryan Leaf, then I do think he should be committed.In all sincerity, I don't watch enough college football to tell you which is the better NFL QB. I've only seen Quinn against good opponents, so I don't have a very high opinion of him. I think he has the tools, and can't see any reason why he won't succeed. The same with Russell. If he fails, it won't be because of physical traits.

 
For what it's worth...

How come Brady Quinn's vanishing act in big games is not hurting his stock more than it is? He would pad his stats against inferior competition, but when it came down to a big game or bowl game, his passes seemed erratic and he seemed rattled and unimpressive.

Sam, A.K.A. "A Concerned Browns Fan"
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I think it is hurting his stock but for the most part scouts are smart enough to realize there were mitigating circumstances and reasons for why Quinn fared poorly against top opponents.

Here are a few of them:

1) A Terrible Defense - Do you realize that Brady Quinn could have led his team to 40 points and STILL lost to Michigan, USC and L.S.U. this past year? To score 40 points against a MAC team is pretty impressive but do to it against some of the elite teams in the country is downright impossible. Unfortunately that is the position Quinn and the Irish were put in by their defense in each and every one of those "big" games.

2) Pressure - The fact of the matter is Brady Quinn was never given the opportunity to play a "normal" game against any of the top teams he faced this past year because he was always coming from behind. Instead of running a normal offense Quinn was constantly having to try and make up for the huge deficits his defenses put them in. That means pass, pass, pass, which is a nightmare situation for quarterbacks because defenses can simply pin their ears back and rush / blitz with little or no fear of the run game. It's not a stretch to say that in those big games in 2006 Quinn had to lead his teams to a score on basically every time he had the ball. Oh, and he had to do it against some of the premier defenses in the nation.

3) Bad Offensive Line - There is no denying that Quinn did not get very good protection from his offensive line this year and I defy anyone to watch that Michigan game and tell me he was given a fair opportunity to make plays by his guys up front. Constant pressure will make any quarterback look bad, from Joe Montana to Tom Brady, and that was often the case for Quinn in '06.

4) Shouldn't Have Been in the Bowl Games They Were - The Irish were blown out of their last two bowl games but if they weren't "Notre Dame" would they have even been in BCS Bowls like the Fiesta and Sugar? Possibly not. Also, as many pundits like to point out whenever given the chance, Notre Dame simply doesn't have the speed or talent to be on the same field as teams like Ohio St. and L.S.U. so why is everyone surprised when they got their doors blown off by arguably two of three best and most talented teams in the nation? Maybe Quinn just did the best he could with a vastly inferior team?

Now I'm not trying to make excuses for Quinn and he certainly hasn't made them for himself but the bottom line is that the Irish losing those games was not all Quinn's fault and to say it was would be ignoring the facts. Quinn is receiving the "Matt Leinart Treatment" this year and probably has it even worse because he played for the team that everybody loves to hate but in the end he's still going to go very high and eventually be one of the league's top quarterbacks.

- Scott Wright, NFL Draft Countdown
Click to expand...
http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/asknfldc/020907.html
 
massraider said:
It wasn't easy for everyone to see the differences between Manning and Leaf, yet it should be between these two, when you even admit they are closer?
Click to expand...
Closer than Leaf and Manning? Of course I believe they are closer that those two, but to suggest ANY two remotely comparable players are closer isn't saying a lot. Leaf and Manning are the poster children for hitting and missing on highly ranked QB's.I'm also saying the best QB in this draft (by a wide margin) is Brady Quinn. He has all of the qualities that Peyton Manning displayed in college and is getting hit with many of the same criticisms. It's difficult to say anybody will be the next Manning (or Brady or Montana, etc) but Brady Quinn has one of the highest floors of any QB to come out the last few years. Barring injury he'll be an adequate starting QB...and that's his floor.JaMarcus Russell is Byron Leftwich but JaMarcus is going to find himself in a much worse organization/situation that Leftwich ever has been in. With this in mind I believe Russell's likelihood for busting is much, much higher than any QB since Akili Smith (I'm referring to a horrible organization and situation).
 
There is always the possibility that Quinn will blossom into a QB with so many intangibles that he becomes an elite QB a la Brees, Manning, etc. The problem is that is very hard to predict.

From a physical standpoint, it's not even close. The gap between Russell and Quinn physically is much greater than the one between Leaf and Manning (who were pretty close IMO). It's much easier to evaluate physical talents and Russell is far superior.

Russell has some intangibles also by the way. He's a good leader who's extremely confident. I think he's going to love having WRs who have above average hands allowing him to let his ball go. He had to learn to take velocity off his throws in college.

Russell is the most physically gifted QB to come into the league ever IMO. He's huge, has an unbelievably strong arm, throws a beautiful pass. I don't think we've seen a guy quite like this yet.

 
gzilla said:
Russell is the most physically gifted QB to come into the league ever IMO. He's huge, has an unbelievably strong arm, throws a beautiful pass. I don't think we've seen a guy quite like this yet.
Click to expand...
The most physically gifted QB is either Vick or VY. Frankly, Russell is a fat###. He came into this past season overweight and he looked jiggly in the bowl game. I could easily see him ballooning up to 300 pounds once he gets his fat signing bonus. Over the years, I've come to the opinion that game film is a much better indication of potential at the next level then measureables. And based off of what I've seen from both of these guys, I don't think either one of them is worth the #1 pick, especially when Calvin Johnson and AP are available.
 
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