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Is It Wilhelm or Cooper... (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Toads
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chook
Footballguy
Look down the bottom of this page.
Although it was posted a couple of days before they fired Marty.
Hope it helps.
Although it was posted a couple of days before they fired Marty.
Hope it helps.
Toads
Footballguy
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Scooby
Footballguy
I heard Wilhelm is gonna take over.....
Toads
Footballguy
This wiilm probably take a homer to figure out: Wilhelm replaces Godfrey and Coop replaces Edwards, at least that's the way the articleI heard Wilhelm is gonna take over.....
seems to lay it out?
Jene Bramel
Footballguy
This has always been confusing and just became even moreso with the firing of Marty Schottenheimer. Kevin Acee of the SD Union-Trib has named Matt Wilhelm as Donnie Edwards' replacement consistently since early in the pre-season of 2006. He hasn't wavered. The original source (Acee) that Rotoworld quoted in the blurb from the other thread that said Cooper would be the man said is misleading. The Cooper sentence was an editorial comment from the Rotoworld person who wrote the blurb; Cooper's name wasn't mentioned anywhere in the article.
Despite Acee's consistent stance, I have been firmly on Stephen Cooper's bandwagon over much of the past nine months for a bunch of reasons. He clearly had the favor of the coaches. He saw significant playing time when Randall Godfrey missed time in 2005, was tendered a high number in RFA last year, and got a sizable contract extension shortly thereafter. Meanwhile, Matt Wilhelm saw little playing time outside of special teams, got a minimal tender in RFA last year, and the Chargers spent a draft pick on Tim Dobbins.
Wilhelm started getting play in the local media right around the time the Donnie Edwards-AJ Smith saga started last off-season. He was likely to play in Edwards' spot, particularly on running downs. None of that talk came from Schottenheimer, though, and Cooper played on the strong side for the majority of his snaps during the 06 pre-season. Cooper saw a fair amount of time in the base defense during the regular season as well, even when Godfrey was healthy, while Wilhelm remained mainly a ST/garbage time player. My feeling was that Acee saw Cooper replace Godfrey and pigeon-holed him into the RILB backup depth chart slot and assumed Wilhelm would get the call as the primary backup LILB, without considering that Cooper could handle either position and was the better player.
The rub now is that Wilhelm was given a big extension in December and Schottenheimer/Phillips are gone. The previous coaching staff had no problem with Edwards (a smallish pursuing 235 pounds who was better in coverage) at LILB and Godfrey (a bigger 245 pounder who's marginally better at getting off blocks than Edwards) at RILB. The new staff may see the smaller Cooper as the better fit at RILB, while putting the more pluggish Wilhelm at LILB, not unlike what happened with the Barton/Vilma situation in New York.
I was still pretty comfortable that Cooper would land in the more advantageous ILB spot even after Wilhelm's extension. With Schottheimer and Phillips out of the picture now, anything is possible. Should Wilhelm end up in a "featured" tackle role in SD, I don't think I'd be investing much in him. His skill set is that of a two down backer and he's nowhere near as rangy as Edwards was. Contract extension aside, I think Tim Dobbins was impressive enough last pre-season that Wilhelm may be the third best LB on the roster by opening weekend 2007.
Despite Acee's consistent stance, I have been firmly on Stephen Cooper's bandwagon over much of the past nine months for a bunch of reasons. He clearly had the favor of the coaches. He saw significant playing time when Randall Godfrey missed time in 2005, was tendered a high number in RFA last year, and got a sizable contract extension shortly thereafter. Meanwhile, Matt Wilhelm saw little playing time outside of special teams, got a minimal tender in RFA last year, and the Chargers spent a draft pick on Tim Dobbins.
Wilhelm started getting play in the local media right around the time the Donnie Edwards-AJ Smith saga started last off-season. He was likely to play in Edwards' spot, particularly on running downs. None of that talk came from Schottenheimer, though, and Cooper played on the strong side for the majority of his snaps during the 06 pre-season. Cooper saw a fair amount of time in the base defense during the regular season as well, even when Godfrey was healthy, while Wilhelm remained mainly a ST/garbage time player. My feeling was that Acee saw Cooper replace Godfrey and pigeon-holed him into the RILB backup depth chart slot and assumed Wilhelm would get the call as the primary backup LILB, without considering that Cooper could handle either position and was the better player.
The rub now is that Wilhelm was given a big extension in December and Schottenheimer/Phillips are gone. The previous coaching staff had no problem with Edwards (a smallish pursuing 235 pounds who was better in coverage) at LILB and Godfrey (a bigger 245 pounder who's marginally better at getting off blocks than Edwards) at RILB. The new staff may see the smaller Cooper as the better fit at RILB, while putting the more pluggish Wilhelm at LILB, not unlike what happened with the Barton/Vilma situation in New York.
I was still pretty comfortable that Cooper would land in the more advantageous ILB spot even after Wilhelm's extension. With Schottheimer and Phillips out of the picture now, anything is possible. Should Wilhelm end up in a "featured" tackle role in SD, I don't think I'd be investing much in him. His skill set is that of a two down backer and he's nowhere near as rangy as Edwards was. Contract extension aside, I think Tim Dobbins was impressive enough last pre-season that Wilhelm may be the third best LB on the roster by opening weekend 2007.
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The Man With No Name
Footballguy
Wilhelm is listed as Edwards back-up, and Cooper as Godfrey's. And Cooper played in Godfrey's spot when he missed 6 games the past 3 seasons. Wilhelm has never started a game, but Edwards has not missed any since 1998.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
FWIW NFL.com lists Wilhelm as the backup to Edwards.
Wilhelm v. Cooper is a tough call but Tim Dobbins will only play the plugger role (if any at all). Moving forward (plug or blitz), I'd take Cooper. In an all-around role (coverage, chase, plug) I'd take Wilhelm. Wilhelm gets the nod for instincts, Cooper for play-making ability. If you have to make an off-season decision, go with Wilhelm if for no other reason than he was an AJ Smith draft pick and is younger!
Jene Bramel
Footballguy
Disagree.Wilhelm is poor in coverage, isn't an effective blitzer, and does not have sideline-to-sideline range. His above average instincts may make up for some of his deficiencies, but those instincts have yet to get him on the field. Many would consider him a two down backer. IMO, Cooper is the better linebacker in every respect except for his difficulty getting off blocks. None of that really helps determine which one plays LILB and the other plays RILB in this case though. I'll be the first to switch allegiances if/when I'm wrong, but the fact that Stephen Cooper played the strong side LB role last pre-season despite the depth chart listings will keep me in his camp for now.DonFue said:
Just because Wilhelm was listed as the primary backup to Edwards doesn't mean that Cooper can't play both ILB positions and wouldn't have gotten the call there if Edwards was injured.
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chook
Footballguy
Agree.And I also agree that reading too far into depth chart listings at this point can be somewhat a waste of time.
Reading through a SD homer forum the other day to try shed some light on this situation, and someone mentioned that Shaun Phillips could be an option inside. I know that is totally speculation by a fan, but is there any chance of that happening at all? I can't see it - he's so great outside rushing the pass, although he is very quick. But it's always good to throw up for discussion (hopefully this time, to be shot down).
Jene Bramel
Footballguy
Wilhelm's lack of PT was due to Donnie Edwards being in front of him and had nothing to do with his lack of ability. We'll have to wait to see who is right on this one but, in my opinion, Cooper is undisciplined and gets his production from O-line confusion in blitz situations. Wilhelm certainly doesn't have Ray Lewis-type range or coverage skills but the difference in instincts between he and Cooper is sufficient to get the nod in the all-around, 3-down role. Don't rule out the draft for Edward's replacement but the in-house guy should be Wilhelm.
Good debate fellas!
Good debate fellas!
Toads
Footballguy
As a Cooper/Wilhelm and Dobbins owner
Toads
Footballguy
ILB Anthony Waters, Round 3/#96 qualifies here. The knock on Waters is he's "stiff hips in transition", hence a run stuffer/two down backer.Looks like Waters will be a factor, potentially effecting both Wilhelm and Cooper's value?
BoltBacker
Footballguy
I think Siler is thought of much the same way.... a run stuffer/two down LB. In short SD couldn't replace Edwards(shock). It's interesting that Dobbins/Waters/Siler all sound like they are ineffective against the pass and I haven't been impressed with Cooper/Wilhelm in coverage(at least man-to-man coverage) and obviously Merriman/Phillips are best suited for blitzing and persuit. This is one of the rare instances where I really do believe that AJ's ego got the best of him. SD could have easily matched and bettered the deal Edwards got from KC if that bridge hadn't already been burned in the past year and his coverage skills are still needed in SD. AJ's very public pissing match with Edwards insured that guy was NEVER returning to SD. Guys like Gonzales/Graham/Miller could have big days against SD imo. Stay tuned.ILB Anthony Waters, Round 3/#96 qualifies here. The knock on Waters is he's "stiff hips in transition", hence a run stuffer/two down backer.Looks like Waters will be a factor, potentially effecting both Wilhelm and Cooper's value?
No, there's no chance.
I think this is right on.Wilhelm is a sold run-stuffer, and is fairly athletic. He gets good drops in his zones, and although he's not nearly as good in man coverage as Donnie Edwards, he's not a total stiff, either. In zone coverage, his height is an advantage. Wilhelm will not pursue from the back side as well as Edwards did, but that's OK. The Chargers have Olshansky play a lot of one-gap technique, and I think Wilhelm fits in best on the strong side where he can attack the B gap.Cooper has better range than Wilhelm. He fit in nicely as a backup to Godfrey because Godfrey played the run-stuffing role on first down, then Cooper came in at SILB on passing downs. It worked out great. But as a full-time starter, I think Cooper belongs on the weak side and Wilhelm belongs on the strong side. Wilhelm can attack upfield, taking some of the pressure off of Jamal Williams and freeing up Cooper on the weak side.
Geez, I may be nuts but I would switch those scouting reports. Wilhelm is a classic MLB stuck on a 3-4 team. Cooper is a special teams kamikaze stuck in a starting role. I'd send Cooper to attack and let Wilhelm read-and-react (a.k.a. get the tackles).Too much is put into this RILB/LILB stuff. Good players in the right scheme make plays. Ray Lewis wasn't great in the 3-4 b/c he had the magical side, the DC made him the focal point. In Houston, Sharper was always just better than his ILB-mate but the scheme wasn't any more in his favor than the other guy (Jay Foreman-the memories). Vilma stunk it up in the 3-4 (and Barton was average) b/c no ILB is great in the Bel-gini scheme. Every defensive call is different. Every sub package is different. Every scheme has more options than any of us can possibly understand. Take the better player and understand the defense. Forget about picking guys based on the official depth chart. BTW, tremblay has a point. If you can get a coach to actually confirm which ILB is weak and which is strong then that is usable info (the Ray Lewis scheme). Take the weak by the wayMaurile Tremblay said:
.
Jene Bramel
Footballguy
You've contradicted yourself in the two bolded statements IMO. And I'm not sure I understand the difference why there's a difference between "magical side" and "focal point". I very much agree that every defensive call is different and many of the professional schemes have multiple variations. Still, understanding the base defense is important knowledge. The variations stem from the base front in most cases (blitz schemes, stunts, cover calls, etc). It's extremely rare for a good player to overcome scheme limitations with respect to boxscore. Understanding the correct depth chart is key to understanding the defense.Too much is put into this RILB/LILB stuff. Good players in the right scheme make plays. Ray Lewis wasn't great in the 3-4 b/c he had the magical side, the DC made him the focal point. In Houston, Sharper was always just better than his ILB-mate but the scheme wasn't any more in his favor than the other guy (Jay Foreman-the memories). Vilma stunk it up in the 3-4 (and Barton was average) b/c no ILB is great in the Bel-gini scheme. Every defensive call is different. Every sub package is different. Every scheme has more options than any of us can possibly understand. Take the better player and understand the defense. Forget about picking guys based on the official depth chart.
BTW, tremblay has a point. If you can get a coach to actually confirm which ILB is weak and which is strong then that is usable info (the Ray Lewis scheme). Take the weak by the way.
If you want to take the WLB in every 3-4 scheme, you'll hit on Lewis (though you would've taken Hartwell one season), Sharper, Brooking, and probably Willis. You'll be wrong on Andra Davis, Donnie Edwards, James Farrior, Sam Cowart and Jonathan Vilma. You can say well, I'll just take the best linebacker on the team, and that's probably safe most times -- but Vilma puts a sizable dent in that argument too.
I'll be interested to hear who you think will be the better option if the classic MLB (Wilhelm) plays the strong side while the special teamer (Cooper) plays weak. The better player or what you've suggested is the default better role. That's why I think it matters. One is likely to out-produce the other.
And, since starting the confusion about the Willis issue and the Nolan scheme, I've spent a great deal of time re-researching the two pertinent current 3-4 variations with the way-back machine, some playbooks and some old interviews I found.
The short version looks like it may break out as the following default:
Belichick's variation: LILB
Phillips' variation: RILB
Hopefully, the outliers are predictable (most notably Edwards for now).
I need to confirm a few more loose ends (Donnie Edwards, exactly where Lebeau/Capers' allegiances lie) so as not to speculate and further confuse the issue, but I'm coming with a 3-4 opus with some hypotheses for the new millenium sometime in the next couple of weeks.
Maybe I'm making too much of this as DonFue suggests. There's no question I've been wrong on some calls in the past (Hawk vs Barnett last year to name one) when I base a call on scheme. But I'm going to continue to be stubborn and suggest that a fundamental understanding of how each defensive coordinator sets up his base defense is important to accurately predicting boxscore results over the long haul.
Strong/weak matters (and is the hardest to gauge if/when its schemed) while right/left doesn't (unless you can figure out if that translates to weak/strong in any teams scheme).
SD played straight-up (no strong/weak) under Phillips so if they stay with his defense I'll go with Wilhelm.
SD played straight-up (no strong/weak) under Phillips so if they stay with his defense I'll go with Wilhelm.
Dobbins is ILB, not OLB. I don't think he'll ever be in the running at OLB. And he looked really good last year during the preseason. If you're choosing between Dobbins, Waters, and Siler, I'd keep Dobbins.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Wilhelm was a 4th round pick in 2003 Cooper was a undrafted free agent signed the same year?I think you are refering to this season. But long term it seems to me that Waters once fully healthy may have much more upside than any of these Lbers.
Yes, I was talking about this season. Long term, anything can happen. But Wilehlm, Cooper, and Dobbins have all looked really good whenever they've gotten a chance to play, so Waters and Siler may have to bide their time just like Wilhelm and Cooper have.
Reading between the lines a bit here, it does like Wilhelm will be in the Donnie Edwards role:
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Of those three do you think Waters is athletic enough to play both ILB and OLB at some point? I'm not saying he'll jump ahead of Harris(who I think is pretty good) but do you think he might jump ahead of Polk if injuries struck the OLB's like they did last season?
chook
Footballguy
I think you're (unfortunately) right. That is clearly the most suggestive/conclusive piece of evidence on the situation so far this offseason.
Keith Lewis
Footballguy
Wilhelm at the MIKE inside spot
Published Sun May 6 8:24:00 a.m. PT 2007
(Rotoworld) Matt Wilhelm is the Chargers' new starting "Mike" inside linebacker.
Impact: The "Mike" linebacker is responsible for play calls and usually sees more tackle opportunities than the position Stephen Cooper will occupy.
Published Sun May 6 8:24:00 a.m. PT 2007
(Rotoworld) Matt Wilhelm is the Chargers' new starting "Mike" inside linebacker.
Impact: The "Mike" linebacker is responsible for play calls and usually sees more tackle opportunities than the position Stephen Cooper will occupy.
