Let's talk Offensive Lines...you know...the guys that really make (1 Viewer)

"Hey Joe, did you hear? Edge retired and Michael Turner just got traded to Arizona all in the same day. I can't believe it! That 4th rounder I burned in my dynasty start up is going to pay off big time now."

"Really Bob? Why do you think that?"

"Didn't you hear me? I said Turner got traded and is now the starter...big points for me this year"

"Yes Bob, but that OL just plain stinks. He isn't running behind the best run blocking OL in football anymore."

"What does that matter Joe? If he can run in SD, he can run in AZ for sure too."

Do you know some people that think this way? Never seem to be able to gauge the actual situation that players are in? I'm sure you do and invite them, all of them, into your redrafts every year so you can take their money. Now I am a big proponent of staying away from projections. My skin is already crawling when I look at the FBG projections which are up and free till June/July I believe...I cringe as the stats look mostly like they were loaded up from the end of last season(shivers uncontrollable). That simply will not happen and its not just FBG, all sites do this including the mags...at least David Dodds will change those numbers on the fly during preseason as he sees fit, unlike those mags that are being printed as we speak.

Before I ever put together my big RB thread/article, I like to get some research done on the situations for all these players we will invest 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks into. Now OL to me is critical. No blocking, no holes, no yds, no first downs, no TD...it has a trickle down affect to it. Help me out and lets talk about the OL around the NFL, I'll simply go in order from AFC to NFC.

AFC East

Buffalo: Better? They signed a couple of guys I believe. I will let the Buffalo faithful like Aaron help us out here. The idea is not blow them up more than they should be but is this still a nominee for worst 10...middle of the pack now?

Miami: I think this is still a mess. I don't see any pro Bowl types on this OL...they were really hoping to land some big free agents for this OL, didn't happen IMO. They drafted Setele at Center...that will be a good draft pick for them but I don't see any chance Miami has a dominant OL yet.

New England: Cohesive, work well, pass protect and run block well. Do I need to keep going? They should be just fine this year and one of the strengths and reasons I believe NE will be such a potent force on offense. You can have all the big names but if you don't have an OL you got nothing. They had the OL and added a lot of big names at the skill positions, they are ready to go out and win 14-15 games this year. I truly believe that.

New York Jets: Getting better by the minute. Ferguson and Mangold will have a year under their belt. I like what they are doing here. Maybe not a top10 OL just yeat but certainly not a horrible OL either.

AFC North

Pittsburgh: Seems like it will be OK but Faneca is unhappy. DId they lose some of the pieces here too? I really need some Steeler fans to give us the lowdown on the OL.

Cincinnati: Lost Eric Steinbach, that's huge. Not sure I see where they replaced that hole that will be in the OL now.

Cleveland: One of the most improved. They drafted Joe Thomas who is not going to be but already is an animal at LT. I already felt like whoever got him in the 1st 5 picks of the draft would post the biggest number of wins over last season. They also brought in Steinbach, they have added a couple of other pieces as well...I really like what I am seeing here and they are just continuing to move forward even when they get a setback like Bentley.

Baltimore: Not too great. Not awful but they lost Pashos and cut Mulitalo. They also drafted Ben Grubbs who I like an awful lot. He paved the way for Kenny Irons last season in a very tough SEC.

AFC South

Jacksonville: Added Pashos. pretty good OL but I couldn't really name their 5 starters if you pointed a gun to my head. Would love for the Jags out there to tell us more about these guys. Seemed like MJD had no trouble finding holes to run through last season.

Indy: Solid. No major weaknesses...maybe getting a little long in the tooth in some spots...but pretty solid.

Tennessee: Colin?

Houston: Anyone...anyone? I am not going to pretend I know a lot about this unit. I think they have underperformed but I also see some signs of improvement here. Bottom 10 for sure still?

AFC West

Denver: Not as good as you would think. not as bad as many others like to think.

Kansas City: Roaf last year, Shield retired this year

San Diego: You stay classy.

Oakland: Still pretty bad IMO.'

NFC East

Dallas: Much improved with Davis coming in to play LG/RG. I like them, thought Bledsoe made them look bad, and feel like they should be top10 this season.

Philly: Always pretty solid

NY Giants: Danger Danger...

Washington: Never as good as they should be. Have two bookend Tackles but never seem to be dominant...I don't get it.

NFC Nordic

Chicago: Top5? Is it really that good or was Thomas Jones making them look that way? I'm just asking cause we have a changing of the diaper...err RB rather.

Green Bay: Not that good

Detroit: ???

Minnesota: If the right side was half as good as the left side of that line...AP is going to run behind behind Hutch and McKinnie all year long.

NFC South

New Orleans: Getting to be really good.

Carolina: They had a rash of injuries last season. They get some guys back plus they drafted Ryan Kaliel out of USC to anchor the center of that OL...I think they will make a big upwards this season.

Atlanta: Pretty good

Tampa Bay: Will be better than last season...just how much better is the real question.

NFC West

Arizona: Still pretty awful, but they might have better coaching.

San Fran: I said they would be good last season and no one would listen to me...

Seattle: Still have not patched up the holes here.

St Louis: Pretty good. Could be a top10 OL, should be with Pace as your LT for goodness sake.

So we need to rank these OL

Top 5

New England

San Diego

Dallas

Chicago

New Orleans

Worst 5

Houston

Arizona

Miami

Tampa Bay

Green Bay

Not saying I am 100% right but we need some feedback and then we can start ranking them better. Cleveland is a nice dark horse team that if the OL can come together quickly...could really surprise some people.

Ministry of Pain said:

Cincinnati: Lost Eric Steinbach, that's huge. Not sure I see where they replaced that hole that will be in the OL now.

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Nice effort overall.Steinbach may not be a huge loss. Andrew Whitworth proved himself capable at tackle last season and was drafted with the likelihood that he'd move inside to guard when Steinbach moved on. The real concern to me is whether last season's lower leg injuries of Willie Anderson and Levi Jones will erode their play at tackle. The Bengals could probably survive one injury there, but not two.

Lets see...

1-San Diego

2-New England

3-Chicago

4-Dallas

5-Indy

6-New Orleans

7-San Fran

8-Denver

9-Philly

10-Pittsburgh

11-Jacksonville

12-Cincinnati

13-New York Jets

14-Minnesota

15-Atlanta

16-Carolina

17-St Louis

18-Seattle

19-Cleveland

20-Washington

21-Baltimore

22-Green Bay

23-Detroit

24-Buffalo

25-Tennessee

26-Kansas City

27-Oakland

28-New York Giants

29-Miami

30-Tampa Bay

31-Houston

32-Arizona

Something like this. make corrections as you see fit. Analysis and insight would be helpful too.

Ministry of Pain said:

Lets see...4-Dallas20-Washington

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I'm far from an expert on o-lines leaguewide, but I do know "my" division pretty well, so help me make sense of this.Dallas: they had a sketchy o-line last year, not bad but not exactly good either, so much so that they paid huge bucks on Leonard Davis, an underachieving bust at LT for a team that desperately needed him to be successful and dumped him outright; he's now transitioning to OG for the first time in his career. They have a new offensive coordinator and head coach, though they're supposedly keeping the same general offensive system. Now they're ranked 4th.Washington: their o-line was generally considered to be good, and it enabled Ladell Betts to rush for well over 4 yards per carry despite starting a first-time starter at QB and lacking a healthy Santana Moss for most of the year. They're replacing OG Derrick Dockery with Todd Wade, a good-but-not-great OT playing OG for the first time. They've had no coaching changes. Now they're ranked 20th. What's the rationale for raising Dallas probably 10-15 spots from their (approximate) 2006 ranking and dropping Washington a similar amount?

Jacksonville: Added Pashos. pretty good OL but I couldn't really name their 5 starters if you pointed a gun to my head. Would love for the Jags out there to tell us more about these guys. Seemed like MJD had no trouble finding holes to run through last season.

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LT- Khalif Barnes: age 25, former second round pick out of Washington. Decent run blocker that does very well against the speed pass rushers but sometimes has trouble with a good bull rush. Overall he's a good young LT that could develp into a star.LG- Vince Manuwai: age 27, former third round pick out of Hawaii. He's been a starter since day 1. Plays low with good strength and leverage but has been known to get caught out of position on D-line stunts. C- Brad Meester: age 30, former second round pick out of Northen Iowa. Brad also was a starter from day 1 but started for 3 seasons at guard in Jacksonville before moving back to center(his college position). I've never thought he was overly impressive and in fact thought Dennis Norman out played him late in 2005 when Meester missed games due to injury. But Del Rio loves this guy and when asked why the Jags didn't go after LeCharles Bentley last year Jack replied that me thought Meester was better.RG- Chris Naeole: age 33, former first round draft pick(10th overall) out of Colorado. He has speed, power, an excellent trap blocker, your basic Pro Bowl caliber guard. Chris wants a new contract which is understandable given his age and high level of play. This is a situation to watch, so far everything seems friendly enough but a holdout is possible. RT- Tony Pashos: age 27, former 5th round pick out of Illinois. Really don't know much about him other than he's a hardnosed big tackle that plays with an attitude. He's already gotten into it with DE Brent Hawkins at mincamp. Mike Tice is a big part of the story here. When Del Rio brought him in he was told to improve the O-line play and running game. Obviously that went very well last season. Locally he's getting a lot of the credit for the improved play. Also the back ups are excellent. Dennis Norman who I mentioned earlier can play every position on the line and has played center and LT well in the past. Not too many guys can play center and LT in the NFL. Mo Williams is a proven starter who can play RT or either guard. Dan Connolly is a guy that just refuses to be cut. The Jags have brought in a number of free agents with the idea being that they'd beat out Connolly but Dan has always been the one to stay. Collier is huge and has fast feet, and God doesn't make many people like that. They knew last season that he would not be ready to play but felt that he looked too good in preseason to make the practice squad.

Nice effort, MoP, but are you looking at run-blocking ability only, or both run and pass?

Your comments are all directed at the running game, but it doesn't seem to show in the rankings. For example, Houston and Green Bay has been atrocious at protecting the passer, but they didn't run the ball that badly last year despite mediocre talent at the RB position.

I'm no fan of Oakland but I thought they had managed to snag a couple linemen.

I just don't have the time to really get into a detailed analysis, but it has been clear to me over the last few years that constancy on an O line is a remarkable indicator of success for the skill players behind it.

I think there are two reasons for this:

1. O Line play is entirely dependent on teamwork and coordination. If a unit has been together entirely intact for a full season or more, they are going to have great coordination.

2. If a team is so satisfied with its O line that it doesn't look to replace a single member, then those players all must be pretty good.

Conversely, upheaval along an O line that had previously been together for a number of years is a great predictor of skill position players who are going to see a drop in production.

That being said -- which are the teams bringing back their entire O lines this year? I don't even know, but I am willing to say that you should seriously consider upgrading players, particularly RBs, who are going to benefit from that situation.

Pittsburgh lost Jeff Hartings, Russ Grimm and Alan Fanaca's dignity.

They gained Sean Mahan and a 5th round pick.

I can't see them improving. I'm hoping they can cobble together a workman like line that puts them in the top 50%. They will not be anywhere near elite.

Buffalo has a much improved O-Line

Peters at left tackle is solid, dockery at lg as well. Fowler is an average center that is another year into our system. I'm skeptical on Langston Walker at RT, I wish he plays RG and Pennington takes RT.

Our depth decent enough.

Much improved from last year.

The Jets O line is actually over rated. Ferguson is not an effective run blocker, unless he pulls and blocks in space. He also gave up 10 sacks last year, mostly against bull rushes, and had trouble keeping wieght on. He REALLY needs to get stronger and not wear down, as he did last year. He owns speed rushers.... but that is pretty much his only strength unless the Jets use him to pull and run outside more often this year.

Mangold did very well as a rook, but also has room to improve. He isn't a real good run blocker yet, and has trouble with good NT's. But, like Ferguson, is great at pulling and blocking in space outside. The Jets didn't do near enough of that outside running as they should have given what these two players are best at.

The right side of the O line is well below average. Clement was cut by two teams with O line problems before he landed with the Jets last year... AZ and SF. He was servicable, but even that is almost a stretch. Moore at RG is in the bottom fifth of the NFL as a guard. He's cheap, so he hangs around.

Unless one of two young players, namely Ed Blanton (RT) and the rookie sixth rounder (name escapes me at the moment) can surprise and start at RT and RG... the O line from last year returns. that was NOT a good offensive line. The Jets RB's took a lot more heat than they should have last year, and unless something happens to make this unit markedly better, Thomas Jones owners are in for a disappointment. Even Leon Washington with his speed rarely ever had a hole big enough to get through wothout someone getting a helmet on him at the LoS.

The Jets run a lot, but the FF numbers will remain depressed unless one of the youngsters can step up and start on the right side, or the Jets take a lesson from the Curtis Martin days and run outside more often.

One additional comment on Minny... from what I've read, Hutchinson has not adjusted well to the Vikings zone blocking scheme, which makes it sound like he is no more than an average LG until he adapts better to the blocking scheme. I think unless proven otherwise, the Vikings O line is also over rated.

redman said:

Ministry of Pain said:

Lets see...4-Dallas20-Washington

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I'm far from an expert on o-lines leaguewide, but I do know "my" division pretty well, so help me make sense of this.Dallas: they had a sketchy o-line last year, not bad but not exactly good either, so much so that they paid huge bucks on Leonard Davis, an underachieving bust at LT for a team that desperately needed him to be successful and dumped him outright; he's now transitioning to OG for the first time in his career. They have a new offensive coordinator and head coach, though they're supposedly keeping the same general offensive system. Now they're ranked 4th.Washington: their o-line was generally considered to be good, and it enabled Ladell Betts to rush for well over 4 yards per carry despite starting a first-time starter at QB and lacking a healthy Santana Moss for most of the year. They're replacing OG Derrick Dockery with Todd Wade, a good-but-not-great OT playing OG for the first time. They've had no coaching changes. Now they're ranked 20th. What's the rationale for raising Dallas probably 10-15 spots from their (approximate) 2006 ranking and dropping Washington a similar amount?

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This is why I was putting this out there Redman. You make some great points. This was not intended to be the "MOP, look at what I know thread!" It was more of a lets work through this. I need the board to weigh in on these OL. You make some great points but it seems like Washington should be better considering their OL.

abrecher said:

Nice effort, MoP, but are you looking at run-blocking ability only, or both run and pass?Your comments are all directed at the running game, but it doesn't seem to show in the rankings. For example, Houston and Green Bay has been atrocious at protecting the passer, but they didn't run the ball that badly last year despite mediocre talent at the RB position.

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Excellent question. I guess both but I am probably more interested in the run blocking at this point as I am trying to evaluate for redraft RB rankings.

AnonymousBob said:

I'm no fan of Oakland but I thought they had managed to snag a couple linemen.

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I agree, their o-line should improve at least a decent amount.

Rovers said:

the rookie sixth rounder (name escapes me at the moment) can surprise and start at RT

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Jake Bender from Nicholls State - came from an option offense, so you know he can drive block. He was a formidable match for Carriker when Nebraska played Nicholls St. He'll need to learn a lot of pass blocking, so I dont know that the Jets would want to get him out there too early. Bender has a ton of upside if he can get comfortable as a pass blocker.

Ministry of Pain said:

AFC WestDenver: Not as good as you would think. not as bad as many others like to think.Kansas City: Roaf last year, Shield retired this year San Diego: You stay classy. Oakland: Still pretty bad IMO.'

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Oaklands is still probably the worst in the division, although them and KC are pretty close. San Diego has the best line in the division probably, but Denver's isn't as bad as people think it is.They get Lepsis back this year who was out the majority of last year with a knee injury. All reports indicate he will be 100%.Look for Pears to play RT in place of that POS Foster. Pears played very well last year at LT in place of Lepsis, so moving to RT should be an easy transition (his natural position)Hamilton has been instructed to bulk up to 295 and he is their best technician easily. With the extra weight he should continue to be a force, but do better in short yardage situations.Nalen is looking vampirish, but he is still one of the better centers in the league.RG looks to be a toss up between Kuper, who almost stole Carlisle's job last year, and Holland, who started for the Saints last year. Either one shouldn't miss a step.

AZ is not even close to the bottom 5 this year IMHO, especially with Grimm behind them.

Sigmund Bloom said:

Rovers said:

the rookie sixth rounder (name escapes me at the moment) can surprise and start at RT

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Jake Bender from Nicholls State - came from an option offense, so you know he can drive block. He was a formidable match for Carriker when Nebraska played Nicholls St. He'll need to learn a lot of pass blocking, so I dont know that the Jets would want to get him out there too early. Bender has a ton of upside if he can get comfortable as a pass blocker.

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Dream Jeopardy category for Bloom..."Alex, I'll take NFL Rookies for $400 please"...it's a Daily Double! "I'll bet everything Alex!"...

LHUCKS said:

AZ is not even close to the bottom 5 this year IMHO, especially with Grimm behind them.

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Cool, please explain.

Ministry of Pain said:

LHUCKS said:

AZ is not even close to the bottom 5 this year IMHO, especially with Grimm behind them.

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Cool, please explain.

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Three new starters this year alone and the line really improved at the end of last year. LINK to the current status

Oakland - Gone are Langston Walker, Brad Badger and Cory Hulsey. Here now are Jeremy Newberry, Cooper Carlisle, Ben Claxton, and rookie Mario Henderson among others.

Barry Sims figures to return to a tackle spot (after being moved to guard by the old regime) likely on the left side, pushing Robert Gallery back to the right. Sophomore guard Paul McQuistan should man one guard position while recent addition Carlisle seems to be the favorite for the other. Center Jake Grove started all 16 games last year and will be entering his 4th season with a push from Newberry – either could also help at guard if need be. Claxton was scooped up last week after being released by Atlanta and Henderson, a 3rd round pick this year, will need time to develop.

The most encouraging off-season change for the Oakland O-line has been in the coaching staff. The Shell-Slater-Eatman hall of fame combo was a miserable, unorganized disaster. New OC Greg Knapp brought line coach Tom Cable with him from Atlanta to take over the project of re-making the line. Cable plans to install a more aggressive zone-blocking scheme complete with plenty of knee-hunting cuts and even some actual teaching with explanations and everything. The early word is the linemen are eager and loving the fact that they will enter 2007 with a plan.

Carlisle comes with experience in Denver’s scheme, Newberry adds some veteran perspective, and if Claxton sticks, at least he can add depth as a guy who has worked with Cable before. Personally, I think Grove does a fine job in the middle and Sims is underrated. As for Gallery … he’s due for a better year, right?

So, bottom line … can’t be worse than last year and if nothing else, Cable has captured their minds. They won’t compare to the Raider lines of 2001-2002, but they could be fun to watch in this transition year.

The Jags O-line (at least at run blocking) has got to be one of the most underrated units at any position in the entire NFL.

Not only was MJD able to rip off a 5.7ypc behind the line last year, but Fred Taylor was able to rip off the highest ypc of his career (5.0) at the sparkling young age of 30 behind it.

I don't have the stats in front of me, but did the Jags rushing game have the highest ypc in the league last year? I'm sure they were up there...

Minnesota's should be a top line this year as well. Seems lines that get a couple studs put in them usually struggle some in year 1 and bounce back in year 2. Player to player, they're one of the best out there now, just need to put it together as a unit.

FreeBaGeL said:

The Jags O-line (at least at run blocking) has got to be one of the most underrated units at any position in the entire NFL.

Not only was MJD able to rip off a 5.7ypc behind the line last year, but Fred Taylor was able to rip off the highest ypc of his career (5.0) at the sparkling young age of 30 behind it.

I don't have the stats in front of me, but did the Jags rushing game have the highest ypc in the league last year? I'm sure they were up there...

Minnesota's should be a top line this year as well. Seems lines that get a couple studs put in them usually struggle some in year 1 and bounce back in year 2. Player to player, they're one of the best out there now, just need to put it together as a unit.

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They were second in the league behind Atlanta.

I'm not very comfortable trying to rank O-lines this way. Different lines do different things well, or not so well. A great run-blocking line can be terribly porous against the pass rush, and vice versa. Lines that pull and block in space well can have trouble on the short yardage stuff it one yard type plays.

Play calling and skill position talent can greatly change our PERCEPTION of how good a line really is. If you have the good "pulling" line, but are running a bruiser between the tackles RB, you're going to struggle, and everyone looks bad. But stick the smaller, quicker back in there and run the play outside...PRESTO...suddenly you have a couple pro-bowl players. Funny how that works.

The NFL/football is unlike any other sport/league in the world in that the coaching staff is every bit as important as the players on the field.

FWIW, it would be more fair to break this into three seperate categories: pass-blocking, run-blocking, and overall. Philly, for example, would probably rank in the 8-13 range for run-blocking as they are effective in this area, but hardly overwhelming. They are superb in pass protection, ranking in the 4-5 area. Overall, the sum makes them a top 3-6 line. BUT, they still can struggle in the 3rd and very short run it up the gut plays.

When evaluating pass protection, be careful not to place too big an emphasis on sack totals. I'll use Philly again as an example. DMac gets sacked at an average pace. That does not mean the protection is average because 1.Philly calls a lot of deep pass plays. 2. McNabb is still strong enough and athletic enough to buy himself time when pressured...the confidence he has in himself to do so means the defense gets more opportunities to sack him since he'll throw it away less then most QB's. A better indicator, although harder to find data for, would be the average amount of time a QB has before being pressured.

MOP, you've opened up a very difficult can of worms

Colts should have their best and deepest OL in the Manning era this season. This is a one-year deal - they will lose at least 2 key players in their OL after next season, but for one year, they are in great shape.

Rovers said:

The Jets O line is actually over rated. Ferguson is not an effective run blocker, unless he pulls and blocks in space. He also gave up 10 sacks last year, mostly against bull rushes, and had trouble keeping wieght on. He REALLY needs to get stronger and not wear down, as he did last year. He owns speed rushers.... but that is pretty much his only strength unless the Jets use him to pull and run outside more often this year. Mangold did very well as a rook, but also has room to improve. He isn't a real good run blocker yet, and has trouble with good NT's. But, like Ferguson, is great at pulling and blocking in space outside. The Jets didn't do near enough of that outside running as they should have given what these two players are best at. The right side of the O line is well below average. Clement was cut by two teams with O line problems before he landed with the Jets last year... AZ and SF. He was servicable, but even that is almost a stretch. Moore at RG is in the bottom fifth of the NFL as a guard. He's cheap, so he hangs around. Unless one of two young players, namely Ed Blanton (RT) and the rookie sixth rounder (name escapes me at the moment) can surprise and start at RT and RG... the O line from last year returns. that was NOT a good offensive line. The Jets RB's took a lot more heat than they should have last year, and unless something happens to make this unit markedly better, Thomas Jones owners are in for a disappointment. Even Leon Washington with his speed rarely ever had a hole big enough to get through wothout someone getting a helmet on him at the LoS.The Jets run a lot, but the FF numbers will remain depressed unless one of the youngsters can step up and start on the right side, or the Jets take a lesson from the Curtis Martin days and run outside more often. One additional comment on Minny... from what I've read, Hutchinson has not adjusted well to the Vikings zone blocking scheme, which makes it sound like he is no more than an average LG until he adapts better to the blocking scheme. I think unless proven otherwise, the Vikings O line is also over rated.

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Well said Rovers (again)....This is why I was DYING for one of those top OG's in the draft... I thought getting a Blalock or Grubbs on this line would take it to the next level and really help the run game.Instead we get talk of Pete Kendal, the glue for the OL last year, may be gone.....That SHOCKS me.... No excuse for this OL to be a liabiltiy after spending 2 1st round picks last year - Don't turn your back on the OL now and assume it's fixed with those picks...And on top of all that, the line has little to no depth - Lose Mangold and the line is a disaster.....Lose Ferguson and it's still in trouble... A guy like Blalock who could play mulitple slots would have done wonders IMO.....Hopefully Brick puts on some real good weight and worked his tail off this offseason and Mangold gets even better..... Mangold is a MONSTER though and shows you just how important a center like that is - Though I give a lot of credit to Kendall as well for being another "coach" on the field.

Reaper said:

Rovers said:

The Jets O line is actually over rated. Ferguson is not an effective run blocker, unless he pulls and blocks in space. He also gave up 10 sacks last year, mostly against bull rushes, and had trouble keeping wieght on. He REALLY needs to get stronger and not wear down, as he did last year. He owns speed rushers.... but that is pretty much his only strength unless the Jets use him to pull and run outside more often this year. Mangold did very well as a rook, but also has room to improve. He isn't a real good run blocker yet, and has trouble with good NT's. But, like Ferguson, is great at pulling and blocking in space outside. The Jets didn't do near enough of that outside running as they should have given what these two players are best at. The right side of the O line is well below average. Clement was cut by two teams with O line problems before he landed with the Jets last year... AZ and SF. He was servicable, but even that is almost a stretch. Moore at RG is in the bottom fifth of the NFL as a guard. He's cheap, so he hangs around. Unless one of two young players, namely Ed Blanton (RT) and the rookie sixth rounder (name escapes me at the moment) can surprise and start at RT and RG... the O line from last year returns. that was NOT a good offensive line. The Jets RB's took a lot more heat than they should have last year, and unless something happens to make this unit markedly better, Thomas Jones owners are in for a disappointment. Even Leon Washington with his speed rarely ever had a hole big enough to get through wothout someone getting a helmet on him at the LoS.The Jets run a lot, but the FF numbers will remain depressed unless one of the youngsters can step up and start on the right side, or the Jets take a lesson from the Curtis Martin days and run outside more often. One additional comment on Minny... from what I've read, Hutchinson has not adjusted well to the Vikings zone blocking scheme, which makes it sound like he is no more than an average LG until he adapts better to the blocking scheme. I think unless proven otherwise, the Vikings O line is also over rated.

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Well said Rovers (again)....This is why I was DYING for one of those top OG's in the draft... I thought getting a Blalock or Grubbs on this line would take it to the next level and really help the run game.Instead we get talk of Pete Kendal, the glue for the OL last year, may be gone.....That SHOCKS me.... No excuse for this OL to be a liabiltiy after spending 2 1st round picks last year - Don't turn your back on the OL now and assume it's fixed with those picks...And on top of all that, the line has little to no depth - Lose Mangold and the line is a disaster.....Lose Ferguson and it's still in trouble... A guy like Blalock who could play mulitple slots would have done wonders IMO.....Hopefully Brick puts on some real good weight and worked his tail off this offseason and Mangold gets even better..... Mangold is a MONSTER though and shows you just how important a center like that is - Though I give a lot of credit to Kendall as well for being another "coach" on the field.

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What's the current status of the Kendall situation? Is he holding out? What's his contract status? Sounds like his loss would be a huge blow for the line and he's using that leverage to get himself a new contract.

As a bit of a primer for this discussion, I recommend going through FO's in-depth OL Stats for 2006.

Banger said:

Reaper said:

Rovers said:

The Jets O line is actually over rated. Ferguson is not an effective run blocker, unless he pulls and blocks in space. He also gave up 10 sacks last year, mostly against bull rushes, and had trouble keeping wieght on. He REALLY needs to get stronger and not wear down, as he did last year. He owns speed rushers.... but that is pretty much his only strength unless the Jets use him to pull and run outside more often this year. Mangold did very well as a rook, but also has room to improve. He isn't a real good run blocker yet, and has trouble with good NT's. But, like Ferguson, is great at pulling and blocking in space outside. The Jets didn't do near enough of that outside running as they should have given what these two players are best at. The right side of the O line is well below average. Clement was cut by two teams with O line problems before he landed with the Jets last year... AZ and SF. He was servicable, but even that is almost a stretch. Moore at RG is in the bottom fifth of the NFL as a guard. He's cheap, so he hangs around. Unless one of two young players, namely Ed Blanton (RT) and the rookie sixth rounder (name escapes me at the moment) can surprise and start at RT and RG... the O line from last year returns. that was NOT a good offensive line. The Jets RB's took a lot more heat than they should have last year, and unless something happens to make this unit markedly better, Thomas Jones owners are in for a disappointment. Even Leon Washington with his speed rarely ever had a hole big enough to get through wothout someone getting a helmet on him at the LoS.The Jets run a lot, but the FF numbers will remain depressed unless one of the youngsters can step up and start on the right side, or the Jets take a lesson from the Curtis Martin days and run outside more often. One additional comment on Minny... from what I've read, Hutchinson has not adjusted well to the Vikings zone blocking scheme, which makes it sound like he is no more than an average LG until he adapts better to the blocking scheme. I think unless proven otherwise, the Vikings O line is also over rated.

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Well said Rovers (again)....This is why I was DYING for one of those top OG's in the draft... I thought getting a Blalock or Grubbs on this line would take it to the next level and really help the run game.Instead we get talk of Pete Kendal, the glue for the OL last year, may be gone.....That SHOCKS me.... No excuse for this OL to be a liabiltiy after spending 2 1st round picks last year - Don't turn your back on the OL now and assume it's fixed with those picks...And on top of all that, the line has little to no depth - Lose Mangold and the line is a disaster.....Lose Ferguson and it's still in trouble... A guy like Blalock who could play mulitple slots would have done wonders IMO.....Hopefully Brick puts on some real good weight and worked his tail off this offseason and Mangold gets even better..... Mangold is a MONSTER though and shows you just how important a center like that is - Though I give a lot of credit to Kendall as well for being another "coach" on the field.

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What's the current status of the Kendall situation? Is he holding out? What's his contract status? Sounds like his loss would be a huge blow for the line and he's using that leverage to get himself a new contract.

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That's why these rumors of cutting Kendall comes as a shock... he's only going to make 1.5m this year. I'm not certain, but this may be the last year of his contract. I've heard nothing of any possible hold out however. Bloom... I don't think Bender is ready to play RT, but I had read he might be able to step in at RG. He was the best div II offensive lineman in the draft, at least in the opinion of some, so I have high hopes for him. Just how mediocre is Clement at RT? In a year when FA offensive lineman were buying mansions, Clement eventually re-signed with the Jets for cheap.Reaper, I was also hopeful the Jets would spend one of those second round picks on a guard.... the middle of the Jets line gets very little push. It sure would be nice to be able to run on 2nd and goal from the 2 one of these years...

BusMan said:

As a bit of a primer for this discussion, I recommend going through FO's in-depth OL Stats for 2006.

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That is pretty cool stuff BusMan. I like the stuff % and ranking!

Ministry of Pain said:

redman said:

Ministry of Pain said:

Lets see...4-Dallas20-Washington

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I'm far from an expert on o-lines leaguewide, but I do know "my" division pretty well, so help me make sense of this.Dallas: they had a sketchy o-line last year, not bad but not exactly good either, so much so that they paid huge bucks on Leonard Davis, an underachieving bust at LT for a team that desperately needed him to be successful and dumped him outright; he's now transitioning to OG for the first time in his career. They have a new offensive coordinator and head coach, though they're supposedly keeping the same general offensive system. Now they're ranked 4th.Washington: their o-line was generally considered to be good, and it enabled Ladell Betts to rush for well over 4 yards per carry despite starting a first-time starter at QB and lacking a healthy Santana Moss for most of the year. They're replacing OG Derrick Dockery with Todd Wade, a good-but-not-great OT playing OG for the first time. They've had no coaching changes. Now they're ranked 20th. What's the rationale for raising Dallas probably 10-15 spots from their (approximate) 2006 ranking and dropping Washington a similar amount?

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This is why I was putting this out there Redman. You make some great points. This was not intended to be the "MOP, look at what I know thread!" It was more of a lets work through this. I need the board to weigh in on these OL. You make some great points but it seems like Washington should be better considering their OL.

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No, no, it's all good. It was just a discrepancy that I noted. Most 2006 rankings I saw had the 'Skins line ranked somewhere in the lower half of the top 10, and Dallas' line ranked around 5-10 spots below that. I think it's certainly fair to say that if either of those two lines is likely to have improved, it's Dallas' though I still have some doubts about Leonard Davis. Generally speaking though, I think both their relative rankings should be similar to what it was last year, with Dallas moved up a few spots in terms of overall rankings.

Redman, also look at the Redskins sack totals last year. I know some of that can be credited towards the passing playbook and calls, getting rid of the ball quickly and the dump offs, but the sack totals on Brunell and Campbell were low in comparison to the league. Plus the cohesiveness factor. Besides Wade, this line has been together for the past 3 years.

turnit643 said:

Here now are Jeremy Newberry, Cooper Carlisle, Ben Claxton, and rookie Mario Henderson among others.

...

Center Jake Grove started all 16 games last year and will be entering his 4th season with a push from Newberry – either could also help at guard if need be.

...

Carlisle comes with experience in Denver’s scheme, Newberry adds some veteran perspective,

...

So, bottom line … can’t be worse than last year and if nothing else, Cable has captured their minds. They won’t compare to the Raider lines of 2001-2002, but they could be fun to watch in this transition year.

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Newberry will likely not add anything than veteran experience. IIRC his knees are shot.

ookook said:

BusMan said:

As a bit of a primer for this discussion, I recommend going through FO's in-depth OL Stats for 2006.

Click to expand...

That is pretty cool stuff BusMan. I like the stuff % and ranking!

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It's a great site for all kinds of interesting stats.

Green Bay's line was not bottom 5 last season...and that was with 2 rookies starting a considerable amount, a basic 1st year starter in Wells, and the team running the zone blocking scheme for the first time.

Year 2 of zone blocking + another year together for the rookies that improved over the course of the year should signal more improvement.

I would put them as a middle of the pack Oline at this point.

This, however, means very little as I would not touch the RBBC that is shaping up with a 10 foot pole.

Just look at the FO link posted above for evidence of that. They were 16th in run blocking last year on that site...3rd in pass blocking.

Pittsburgh lost Jeff Hartings, Russ Grimm and Alan Fanaca's dignity.They gained Sean Mahan and a 5th round pick.I can't see them improving. I'm hoping they can cobble together a workman like line that puts them in the top 50%. They will not be anywhere near elite.

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Not that I disagree with you, and I really don't think that Pittsburgh's OL was elite a year ago either, buuut....Jeff Hartings was borderline awful last season. A shadow of his former self. His quickness deserted him(likely due to his knees just quitting). Kendall Simmons hasn't been that great since his rookie season and last year may have been one of his worst. Marvel Smith was injured and Faneca wasn't anywhere near as good overall as he's been before(and especially blocking for the pass...not that he's ever been "great" in that regard anyway.) For the first half of the season their best lineman was probably Max Starks, but in the latter portion of the year he had torrid streaks of being beaten like a rented mule as well.Even with all that Parker was still top 10.The front office seems to feel that the backups that got to play some due to injuries/etc, a year ago did ok. Not "great", but ok.(Total assumption on my part from some sound bites I've heard/read and since all they did was bring in Mahan and a 5th rounder who hasn't played that much football.) The coaches seems to like Colon and Kemoawhathisname quite a bit. Chukky Okobi has performed fairly well when called upon in the past, but he's getting expensive. He needs to win a starting spot(likely at C) or they'll probably get rid of him. Mahan's just "a guy" to me, but could he be worse than 25% of Hartings or 100% of Simmons?I don't expect their OL to be anywhere near "elite", but I don't think it'll wind up worse overall(especially pass blocking) than it was a year ago either. Unless, of course, Faneca gets his wish and they deal him. Then all bets are off.

redman said:

Ministry of Pain said:

Lets see...4-Dallas20-Washington

Click to expand...

I'm far from an expert on o-lines leaguewide, but I do know "my" division pretty well, so help me make sense of this.Dallas: they had a sketchy o-line last year, not bad but not exactly good either, so much so that they paid huge bucks on Leonard Davis, an underachieving bust at LT for a team that desperately needed him to be successful and dumped him outright; he's now transitioning to OG for the first time in his career. They have a new offensive coordinator and head coach, though they're supposedly keeping the same general offensive system. Now they're ranked 4th.Washington: their o-line was generally considered to be good, and it enabled Ladell Betts to rush for well over 4 yards per carry despite starting a first-time starter at QB and lacking a healthy Santana Moss for most of the year. They're replacing OG Derrick Dockery with Todd Wade, a good-but-not-great OT playing OG for the first time. They've had no coaching changes. Now they're ranked 20th. What's the rationale for raising Dallas probably 10-15 spots from their (approximate) 2006 ranking and dropping Washington a similar amount?

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Agreed. Dallas is too high. Washington too low. As a Cowboy fan, I also agree with MoP. Bledsoe made the line look worse than it was. If Colombo can stay healthy, I think he's a very solid RT. Gurode is very strong at C. Flozell isn't as good as he was but is still serviceable as a LT. Kosier is valuable as he can play several positions but is no Pro Bowler. Davis will be a big improvement over Rivera. And there's a few young players who can hopefully provide good depth.In recent years, the OL has been the weakest part of this team. Okay, maybe QB or PK. The line is getting better but that wasn't that hard to do. Overall, I think it's now a good line but it's not dominant. Maybe top 10 but not top 5.Davis was paid Tackle money. I think they hope he can replace Flozell next year. That's a mistake IMO. Davis has Probowl potential at G and maybe at RT but he's proven that he shouldn't be anything more than a backup at LT.

5-ish Finkle said:

Pittsburgh lost Jeff Hartings, Russ Grimm and Alan Fanaca's dignity.They gained Sean Mahan and a 5th round pick.I can't see them improving. I'm hoping they can cobble together a workman like line that puts them in the top 50%. They will not be anywhere near elite.

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Not that I disagree with you, and I really don't think that Pittsburgh's OL was elite a year ago either, buuut....Jeff Hartings was borderline awful last season. A shadow of his former self. His quickness deserted him(likely due to his knees just quitting). Kendall Simmons hasn't been that great since his rookie season and last year may have been one of his worst. Marvel Smith was injured and Faneca wasn't anywhere near as good overall as he's been before(and especially blocking for the pass...not that he's ever been "great" in that regard anyway.) For the first half of the season their best lineman was probably Max Starks, but in the latter portion of the year he had torrid streaks of being beaten like a rented mule as well.Even with all that Parker was still top 10.The front office seems to feel that the backups that got to play some due to injuries/etc, a year ago did ok. Not "great", but ok.(Total assumption on my part from some sound bites I've heard/read and since all they did was bring in Mahan and a 5th rounder who hasn't played that much football.) The coaches seems to like Colon and Kemoawhathisname quite a bit. Chukky Okobi has performed fairly well when called upon in the past, but he's getting expensive. He needs to win a starting spot(likely at C) or they'll probably get rid of him. Mahan's just "a guy" to me, but could he be worse than 25% of Hartings or 100% of Simmons?I don't expect their OL to be anywhere near "elite", but I don't think it'll wind up worse overall(especially pass blocking) than it was a year ago either. Unless, of course, Faneca gets his wish and they deal him. Then all bets are off.

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I think the loss of Grimm will be the one that we feel the most. I'm hopeful they can be as good as last years line, which I agree...wasn't good.

I worry about Grimm leaving a bit, too.....but he was there last year and they pretty much sucked. Wouldn't some of it have to be laid at his(and the Chin's) feet for not adjusting/etc?

I think they could be "better" than a year ago overall, just by limiting the amount of time that their QB is on his back. It really wouldn't take a lot to improve there. The right side of the line especially (from Starks to Hartings) was a revolving door on third downs.

A win again ov said:

Buffalo has a much improved O-LinePeters at left tackle is solid, dockery at lg as well. Fowler is an average center that is another year into our system. I'm skeptical on Langston Walker at RT, I wish he plays RG and Pennington takes RT.Our depth decent enough.Much improved from last year.

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We'll see. Moving Peters to LT was definitely the right move last season. And Dockery will definitely be an upgrade at LG. The right side of the line is still a large question mark and I still don't think that Fowler can hold up against the larger DTs. It's also going to take some time for the line to jell. I expect them to be below average at least for the first half of the season. They have the potential to be a good line, but it's all potential right now. I think that the offensive playcalling will actually affect things more than the O-line, especially early on. The Bills are going to open the offense up quite a bit and involve the RB in the passing game a bunch. Sometimes a change in playcalling can make a line look better or allow them to utilize their strengths more.

Rating offensive lines is one of the more difficult things to do. This might help a bit. Team rushing and passing yards and sacks allowed from last year. I was a lil shocked Pittsburgh gave up so many sacks last year.

AFC Rushing Yards

Rank Team Yards

1 SD 2578

2 Jac 2541

3 Ten 2214

4 Den 2152

5 KC 2143

6 Pit 1992

7 NE 1969

8 Ind 1762

9 NYJ 1738

10 Hou 1687

11 Mia 1673

12 Bal 1637

13 Cin 1629

14 Buf 1552

15 Oak 1519

16 Cle 1335

NFC Rushing Yards

Rank Team Yards

1 Atl 2939

2 Was 2216

3 SF 2172

4 NYG 2156

5 Phi 1984

6 Dal 1936

7 Sea 1923

8 Chi 1918

9 Min 1820

10 StL 1805

11 NO 1761

12 GB 1663

13 Car 1659

14 TB 1523

15 Ari 1338

16 Det 1129

AFC - Passing Yards

Rank Team Passing Yards

1 Ind 4308

2 Cin 3833

3 Pit 3733

4 Bal 3435

5 NE 3400

6 Mia 3287

7 SD 3262

8 NYJ 3153

9 KC 3000

10 Cle 2898

11 Jac 2882

12 Den 2799

13 Hou 2778

14 Buf 2719

15 Ten 2596

16 Oak 2420

NFC - Passing Yards

Rank Team Passing Yards

1 NO 4503

2 Phi 4119

3 StL 3962

4 Dal 3836

5 Det 3820

6 GB 3795

7 Ari 3662

8 Chi 3281

9 Car 3264

10 Min 3123

11 NYG 3058

12 Sea 3054

13 Was 3027

14 TB 2798

15 SF 2688

16 Atl 2371

AFC - Sacked

Rank Team Sacked

1 Oak 72

2 Cle 54

3 Pit 49

4 Buf 47

5 Hou 43

6 KC 41

7 Mia 41

8 Cin 36

9 NYJ 34

10 Den 31

11 Jac 30

12 Ten 29

13 NE 29

14 SD 28

15 Bal 17

16 Ind 15

NFC - Sacked

Rank Team Sacked

1 Det 63

2 StL 49

3 Sea 49

4 Atl 47

5 Min 43

6 Dal 37

7 Ari 35

8 SF 35

9 TB 33

10 Car 32

11 Phi 28

12 Chi 25

13 NYG 25

14 GB 24

15 NO 23

16 Was 19

This last one could help as well, QB passer rating to place the sacks allowed and team passing stats into perspective, i.e., if a team has a very good QB but the line gives up a lot of sacks or if the line appeared to protect well but they weren't passing for much yardage and the QBs weren't performing well or visa-versa.

AFC - QB Rating

Rank Team QB Rating

1 Ind 101.0

2 Cin 94.1

3 SD 93.0

4 NE 88.3

5 KC 84.7

6 Buf 84.6

7 Bal 84.6

8 Hou 83.8

9 NYJ 82.1

10 Pit 80.2

11 Jac 80.0

12 Den 74.7

13 Mia 71.2

14 Cle 69.8

15 Ten 61.8

16 Oak 56.2

NFC - QB Rating

Rank Team QB Rating

1 Phi 96.7

2 NO 94.9

3 StL 92.7

4 Dal 86.5

5 Was 83.4

6 Det 79.9

7 Ari 78.7

8 Car 77.9

9 NYG 76.8

10 Sea 76.0

11 Atl 75.2

12 SF 74.4

13 Chi 73.5

14 Min 72.2

15 GB 72.1

16 TB 66.2

Good thread, MOP.

SF has heavily invested in the OL the last few years, and last year it paid off. The run blocking was outstanding, and the pass blocking was good...with one notable exception....Kwame Harris. The guy was awful. I saw a stat that 1/2 of all QB pressures and sacks were his responsibility.

Thus the trade to get Joe Staley.

Right now its a good mix of young vets (besides Allen) with younger day one picks pushing for time.

LT--Jonas Jennings (7). Injury prone, yet above average when healthy. Solid pass blocker, good run blocker. There is talk he might move to the right side next year if Staley progresses as expected.

LG--Larry Allen (14). The guy didn't make the ProBowl on repuation last year. He was incredible in the run game, and above average pass blocking. There were games he absolutely dominated, like the loss to the Rams in St Louis, where Nolan went for the FG on 4th and inches after a 80+ yd drive where Gore ran pretty exclusively behind Allen. I think we can expect another solid season.

C--Eric Heitmann (6). I've never been a huge fan, but he exceeded expectations last year. Very versatile, smart player. Above average in both run and pass blocking.

RG--Justin Smiley (4). FA next year, subject of trade rumors. Guy is a quick athletic Bronco type lineman on a team who wants their OL to maul people. Has bulked up to about 315 this year after being 295 last year. Excellent in all facets of the game; only weakness is that he needs help from C when taking on certain elite DTs. His job will be open to competition from Baas.

RT--Kwame Harris (5). Don't get me started. Horrible. Thinks too much. Soft. Team tried to give him away this offseason (rumored asking price 5th rounder). Doesn't play up to his size. Average run blocker, horrible in the passing game.

Behind these guys are:

OT--Joe Staley ®. Will immediately compete at RT. Would not be surprised to see him start this year. Team thinks he's the LT of the future; possibley could play there this year and shift Jonas to the right side.

OT--Patrick Estes (3). TE out of college, has played very well in NFL Europa and team sees him as a solid backup at both OT spots.

OT/OG--Adam Snyder (3). Had a great rookie season at RT, especially in the passing game. Play fell off last year, and couldn't beat out that stiff Kwame in camp. If Staley fulfills the teams expectations, he will slide inside and compete with Baas to replace Smiley/Allen next year.

OG--David Baas (3). Has not fulfilled expectations as the 33rd player selected. He is the big mauler the team wants at OG. Will compete with Smiley this year, and if Smiley is moved, its because Baas is ready to go. Will be starting in the next year at some position. Also backsup Heitmanna at C.

OG/C--Tony Wragge (4). This guy was a surprise last year. Pretty solid when he filled in on the OL. Got time over Baas and Snyder at OG last year as well as C. I see him as nothing more than a solid swingman.

Bracie Smathers said:

Rating offensive lines is one of the more difficult things to do. This might help a bit. Team rushing and passing yards and sacks allowed from last year. I was a lil shocked Pittsburgh gave up so many sacks last year. NFC Rushing Yards Rank Team Yards 2 Was 2216 NFC - Passing Yards Rank Team Passing Yards 13 Was 3027 NFC - Sacked Rank Team Sacked 16 Was 19 This last one could help as well, QB passer rating to place the sacks allowed and team passing stats into perspective, i.e., if a team has a very good QB but the line gives up a lot of sacks or if the line appeared to protect well but they weren't passing for much yardage and the QBs weren't performing well or visa-versa.NFC - QB Rating Rank Team QB Rating 5 Was 83.4

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Interesting breakdown. I'm just highlighting Washington to point out again that their line is pretty good.

Ministry of Pain said:

LHUCKS said:

AZ is not even close to the bottom 5 this year IMHO, especially with Grimm behind them.

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Cool, please explain.

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Only Catagory they were bottom five in last year was rushing. Now they have spent lots of money this offseason Gandy,Johnson and now Levi.Got rid of the way OVERATED DavisAnd added one of the best o-line coaches in the game. Also Duece will be playing in his second year and really seemed to improve towards the end of last season.

5-ish Finkle said:

I worry about Grimm leaving a bit, too.....but he was there last year and they pretty much sucked. Wouldn't some of it have to be laid at his(and the Chin's) feet for not adjusting/etc?I think they could be "better" than a year ago overall, just by limiting the amount of time that their QB is on his back. It really wouldn't take a lot to improve there. The right side of the line especially (from Starks to Hartings) was a revolving door on third downs.

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I think the upside for this year is that they can be moderately better than last year.The downside, however, is that they can be monumentally worse.

Ministry of Pain said:

Denver: Not as good as you would think. not as bad as many others like to think.

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You're wrong. Denver is *WAY* better than people think. As good as they are, they're terminally underrated.Nalen and Lepsis are still studs. Two years ago, Zimmerman broke down the tape and called them the two best players at their respective positions in the entire NFL (yes, Zimmerman said that Lepsis was a better LT than Walter Jones). Last year, Nalen was still awesome, but Lepsis was injured. If he's healthy, I expect both of them to have at least one more season left in them where they play at a remarkably high level (possibly two, but one for sure). Ben Hamilton is another chronically underrated player who is consistantly among the best guards in the entire league. Eric Pears, the projected Right Tackle, was decent at Left Tackle last season (although he was no Matt Lepsis), and in an easier position with a year of experience, he should be an above-average RT. The RG will be new, but Denver has a lot of depth on the line, with Eslinger, Myers, and Kuper all having at least a year of experience and all being players that fit phenominally into Denver's scheme. When you factor in Montrae Holland, Adam Meadows, and Ryan Harris, there probably isn't another team in the league that'll have the quality line depth that Denver will have this year. Denver's second-team Offensive Line (Harris, Holland, Myers, Kuper, Meadows) could probably start for some teams in the league and actually be an upgrade over their existing unit (Houston and Arizona, I'm looking at you).There are a few other hugely underrated aspects to Offensive Line Efficiency, too. One is the coach. Dennison is a phenominal line coach- a few others credited Denver's success to Gibbs, but while Denver has been running the Gibbs scheme since Shanahan came to town, Dennison has been the primary OL coach for this entire decade. Dennison currently has the "offensive coordinator" title and is entirely responsible for coordinating Denver's running game- an aggressive move that Denver made mostly because several other teams were about to steal Dennison away.Another underrated aspect to Offensive Line Efficiency is consistancy. No team in the entire NFL has as much consistancy on its O-line as Denver does. Denver regularly devotes the largest percentage of its salary cap to the offensive line in the entire league. Everyone who starts in Denver has been in the system learning the schemes and working with the other players for years. The left side of the line (Lepsis-Hamilton-Nalen) will all have been starting together for 6 years (and starting in that order for 3 years), so Cutler's blind side will be incredibly well protected.Another thing that's impossible to overlook when discussing Denver's line is the addition of Daniel Graham. He may be a TE, but essentially, having Graham at the LoS is like having a 6th offensive lineman. He blocks like a tackle (in fact, he's getting paid more than Antonio Gates, and for the most part it's because of his blocking ability- he's not making TE money, he's making OL money).Rumors of Denver's demise have been greatly exaggerated. They are still one of the top 5 OLs in the entire league (probably one of the top 3), and will remain as such until Shanahan is no longer the head coach.

Using stats like sacks allowed, total rushing yards and whatnot is more than fundamentally flawed when attempting to judge how good any given offensive line unit is. For instance, the Jets were #9 in total rushing yards... but the running game was NOT good. They just ran a lot. Most of Pennington's pass plays come off 3 step drops... another thing that sacks allowed doesn't indicate.

In order for stats to be useful in this context, I think it has to be broken down a whole lot more. Somehow, YPC and YPR has to be accounted for.... and just the numbers alone still fail to be a good measuring device for how good an offensive line might be. West coast offenses will never surrender as many sacks as a team that goes deep often with 7 step drops. YPC can be greatly affected if a team tends to throw more often on first down and run more often in short yardage.

Bottom line, I think the only effective way to measure offensive lines has to be based on observations, not numbers. That however is extremely difficult to do, given the number of teams in the NFL. Objective homer reports are the only way to go.

Baltimore: Not too great. Not awful but they lost Pashos and cut Mulitalo. They also drafted Ben Grubbs who I like an awful lot. He paved the way for Kenny Irons last season in a very tough SEC.

Mule was hurt early and Brown started 12 games in his place - Brown is an upgrade IMHO.

Loss of Pashos @ RT is a clear loss - competition will be between Adam Terry (filled in admirably for Ogden but has had problems with foot work at RT) and 3rd rounder Marshal Yanda who is considered to be undersized for RT. I don't see how this spot isn't a downgrade

Grubbs will be given every oppty to beat out Vincent, whom an optimist would describe his play as uneven - should be an upgrade

Chester will be given a chance to beat out incumbent, Mike Flynn at C and even though Flynn has been the weak link, the team likes his line calls and I don't see how the Ravens could start the season with new players at C, RG and RT. Unless either Flynn has a better season or Chester replaces him, this one is a push

JO is one year older but still JO - push

Net, net - tougher schedule, rookie at RG and an unknown quantity at RT, would have to guess line play against pass would be weaker but better against the run (step up against run is more a function of improved RB and increased flexibility of offense in terms of formations and play calling as Jam limited the team to more plain vanilla).

I'm wondering how much a big upgrade at RB helps an OL? If Peterson is everything he's cracked up to be, he'll make MN's line, probably already good, look a lot better.

I didn't realize Dockery had gone to the Bills.. He and Samuels really came on in WAS over the 2nd half of the season. Not sure why they decided to let him go.

Rovers said:

Objective homer reports are the only way to go.

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If you can find 32 of these, I'd bet Joe Bryant would give you some serious cash.