A Sobering Assesment of the Cards OLine, Change your thoughts on getting Edge in the 2nd? Options

[sholditch]

Offensive line
Starters: LT Mike Gandy, LG Reggie Wells, C Al Johnson, RG Deuce Lutui, RT Oliver Ross. Only Lutui played the same position for the Cardinals last year. Gandy and Johnson are free agents, Wells is moving over from tackle and Ross was benched last year.

Backups: First-round pick Levi Brown is behind Ross at right tackle, and it would be a surprise to see him stay there all year. Elton Brown has lost weight and is backing up at guard. Nick Leckey has starting experience at center. Gandy and Ross can also play guard.

Concerns: The group hasn't played together. Ross has been a disappointment in his two years with the Cardinals, and Wells is moving from right tackle, where he played well last year, to guard. Gandy is not a dominating left tackle.
http://www.azcentral.com/sports/cardinals/...dsbreak-ON.html

is this just stuff we already knew and have been trying to ignore? Or is Edge more of a third-round target?

[JaxBill]

The Cards O-line has been bad for so many years, people just take it for granted.

Also, I think a lot of people are outting stock in Russ Grimm to get the line turned around.

[KnowledgeReignsS...]

Like every other year that this Arizona team is new and improved, I just don't see it.

This is not the first time they've brought in respected coordinators and big names from around the league to turn their franchise around. Heck, this isn't the first time time someone involved with the Hogs has been in Arizona as a coach (Joe Bugel).

Has anything changed with their scouting department? What about their front office personnel? If not, why is this year any different than years past?

[Aaronstory]

Like every other year that this Arizona team is new and improved, I just don't see it.

This is not the first time they've brought in respected coordinators and big names from around the league to turn their franchise around. Heck, this isn't the first time time someone involved with the Hogs has been in Arizona as a coach (Joe Bugel).

Has anything changed with their scouting department? What about their front office personnel? If not, why is this year any different than years past?

I hear everything you're saying here, but the same could have been said of the Saints before last year's offensive explosion. I'm not saying the situations are identical. But I do think the potential for a lethal offense and a great value play for those who take Edge is there.

[nygiants56]

Offensive line
Starters: LT Mike Gandy, LG Reggie Wells, C Al Johnson, RG Deuce Lutui, RT Oliver Ross. Only Lutui played the same position for the Cardinals last year. Gandy and Johnson are free agents, Wells is moving over from tackle and Ross was benched last year.

Backups: First-round pick Levi Brown is behind Ross at right tackle, and it would be a surprise to see him stay there all year. Elton Brown has lost weight and is backing up at guard. Nick Leckey has starting experience at center. Gandy and Ross can also play guard.

Concerns: The group hasn't played together. Ross has been a disappointment in his two years with the Cardinals, and Wells is moving from right tackle, where he played well last year, to guard. Gandy is not a dominating left tackle.
http://www.azcentral.com/sports/cardinals/...dsbreak-ON.html

is this just stuff we already knew and have been trying to ignore? Or is Edge more of a third-round target?

Levi is not a backup, he's the starting RT on the O-line..they've moved him to that side, he'll start from day 1.
some other poster mentioned people are putting too much stock in Grimm, but I guess this poster didn't look at where the Steelers ranked since 2000 in rushing offense..3 times they finished #1 in attempts.
year atts yards td
2000 2nd 4th 4th
2001 1st 1st 3rd
2002 3rd 9th 15th
2003 17th 31st 23rd
2004 1st 2nd 7th
2005 1st 5th 5th


dam good stats!
I hope all of you sleep on Edge! he represents terrific value right now, relative to ADP, but it seems,after reading this thread, he might go even LATER!!!
wow...

This post has been edited by nygiants56: Jul 6 2007, 09:33 AM

[gianmarco]

Like every other year that this Arizona team is new and improved, I just don't see it.

This is not the first time they've brought in respected coordinators and big names from around the league to turn their franchise around. Heck, this isn't the first time time someone involved with the Hogs has been in Arizona as a coach (Joe Bugel).

Has anything changed with their scouting department? What about their front office personnel? If not, why is this year any different than years past?

I hear everything you're saying here, but the same could have been said of the Saints before last year's offensive explosion. I'm not saying the situations are identical. But I do think the potential for a lethal offense and a great value play for those who take Edge is there.

The Saints and Cardinals are 2 completely different animals. While the Saints struggled 2 yrs ago during the Katrina season, they weren't ever abysmal before then, just mediocre. They had records of 7-9, 9-7, 8-8, and 8-8 leading into 2005 where they went 3-13. During that same timeframe, Arizona won 7, 5, 4, and 6 games. The Saints made the biggest change they needed to do which was get rid of Aaron Brooks (and Jim Haslett). Unfortunately, there isn't a single step that Arizona has to do. They have lots of problems to address and are just starting to do so. As much as I keep hearing, until I see them move from the bottom of that division and the NFL, I won't believe it.

[Zuma]

target edge in round 3 all you want, but realize you aren't going to get him...

[gianmarco]

target edge in round 3 all you want, but realize you aren't going to get him...

He went pick 4.06 in a 12 team startup dynasty league. I wouldn't pick him in the 2nd round and likely not even the 3rd, even in a redraft. You can have him.

[Zuma]

target edge in round 3 all you want, but realize you aren't going to get him...

He went pick 4.06 in a 12 team startup dynasty league. I wouldn't pick him in the 2nd round and likely not even the 3rd, even in a redraft. You can have him.

dynasty, i see him lower, but at 4.06 sounds like that league needs some sharks...

[Aaronstory]

Like every other year that this Arizona team is new and improved, I just don't see it.

This is not the first time they've brought in respected coordinators and big names from around the league to turn their franchise around. Heck, this isn't the first time time someone involved with the Hogs has been in Arizona as a coach (Joe Bugel).

Has anything changed with their scouting department? What about their front office personnel? If not, why is this year any different than years past?

I hear everything you're saying here, but the same could have been said of the Saints before last year's offensive explosion. I'm not saying the situations are identical. But I do think the potential for a lethal offense and a great value play for those who take Edge is there.

The Saints and Cardinals are 2 completely different animals. While the Saints struggled 2 yrs ago during the Katrina season, they weren't ever abysmal before then, just mediocre. They had records of 7-9, 9-7, 8-8, and 8-8 leading into 2005 where they went 3-13. During that same timeframe, Arizona won 7, 5, 4, and 6 games. The Saints made the biggest change they needed to do which was get rid of Aaron Brooks (and Jim Haslett). Unfortunately, there isn't a single step that Arizona has to do. They have lots of problems to address and are just starting to do so. As much as I keep hearing, until I see them move from the bottom of that division and the NFL, I won't believe it.

See, while I agree about Brooks and Haslett, my reason for bringing them up was the OLine. Going into last season, the Saints Oline was a big unknown. They brought in some vets, mixed them around with some youth and came up with a great unit. Again, not saying this will happen with the Cards, but the potential is there.

[Dirty Weasel]

target edge in round 3 all you want, but realize you aren't going to get him...

He went pick 4.06 in a 12 team startup dynasty league. I wouldn't pick him in the 2nd round and likely not even the 3rd, even in a redraft. You can have him.

This is lunacy. For those down on Edge, just remember, he finished 5th in touches last year with 375. Barring injury, he should finish no lower than 7-8 in touches again. I will gladly pick him in the late 2nd of a redraft, or early/mid 3rd of a dynasty.

[kevinray]

Offensive line
Starters: LT Mike Gandy, LG Reggie Wells, C Al Johnson, RG Deuce Lutui, RT Oliver Ross. Only Lutui played the same position for the Cardinals last year. Gandy and Johnson are free agents, Wells is moving over from tackle and Ross was benched last year.

Backups: First-round pick Levi Brown is behind Ross at right tackle, and it would be a surprise to see him stay there all year. Elton Brown has lost weight and is backing up at guard. Nick Leckey has starting experience at center. Gandy and Ross can also play guard.

Concerns: The group hasn't played together. Ross has been a disappointment in his two years with the Cardinals, and Wells is moving from right tackle, where he played well last year, to guard. Gandy is not a dominating left tackle.
http://www.azcentral.com/sports/cardinals/...dsbreak-ON.html

is this just stuff we already knew and have been trying to ignore? Or is Edge more of a third-round target?

Levi is not a backup, he's the starting RT on the O-line..they've moved him to that side, he'll start from day 1.
some other poster mentioned people are putting too much stock in Grimm, but I guess this poster didn't look at where the Steelers ranked since 2000 in rushing offense..3 times they finished #1 in attempts.
year atts yards td
2000 2nd 4th 4th
2001 1st 1st 3rd
2002 3rd 9th 15th
2003 17th 31st 23rd
2004 1st 2nd 7th
2005 1st 5th 5th


dam good stats!
I hope all of you sleep on Edge! he represents terrific value right now, relative to ADP, but it seems,after reading this thread, he might go even LATER!!!
wow...

Grimm really isn't all he's cracked up to be, pretty much all of his 3rd/4th round pet projects at Online that he was going to developed into players wound up never amounting to anything. He's far from a miracle worker, and the Wiz was a guy Steeler fans were looking at to open up the passing game if he became our head coach. A lot of Cowher assistants have gone to other teams as head coaches and they've never become the Steelers, in running mentality especially, and I just don't see this team getting a quick fix because of those two.

[gianmarco]

target edge in round 3 all you want, but realize you aren't going to get him...

He went pick 4.06 in a 12 team startup dynasty league. I wouldn't pick him in the 2nd round and likely not even the 3rd, even in a redraft. You can have him.

This is lunacy. For those down on Edge, just remember, he finished 5th in touches last year with 375. Barring injury, he should finish no lower than 7-8 in touches again. I will gladly pick him in the late 2nd of a redraft, or early/mid 3rd of a dynasty.

Yeah, 5th in touches and 20th in fantasy scoring in our system among RB's. Fred Taylor outscored him. Last I checked, I'd rather get more fantasy points than touches. And unless he gets even more touches than last year, I don't see his #'s improving much, if at all. Edge is a super-talented RB, but that move to Arizona has spelled the death of his productive career. He will likely continue to have an abysmal ypc there and the only way it will be made up for is with a huge # of carries and touches. I also doubt he ever smells double-digit TDs again until he leaves there. When they do get near the goalline, the passing attack will remain a better option until that O-Line is improved much more than what they tried to do so far.

ETA--Oh, and he's 29 this year. At this point, there really isn't much difference between him and J. Lewis or A. Green. Talented RB's that have landed on bad teams with bad O-lines that are nothing more than a mediocre RB#2. The days of 1300 yds and double digit TDs are over.

This post has been edited by gianmarco: Jul 6 2007, 11:21 AM

[KnowledgeReignsS...]

target edge in round 3 all you want, but realize you aren't going to get him...

He went pick 4.06 in a 12 team startup dynasty league. I wouldn't pick him in the 2nd round and likely not even the 3rd, even in a redraft. You can have him.

This is lunacy. For those down on Edge, just remember, he finished 5th in touches last year with 375. Barring injury, he should finish no lower than 7-8 in touches again. I will gladly pick him in the late 2nd of a redraft, or early/mid 3rd of a dynasty.

Just remember, he finished 60th in value last year.

[The Man with the...]

I'm not saying that the Cardinals offensive line is great or anything but towards the end of the season they were playing better. As a result Edgerrin James played markedly better over that time as well as Matt Leinart. If Levi Brown can come and live up to his high draft status along with the other slight moves made I think the Cardinals offensive line could surprise a lot of people.

[ConstruxBoy]

2nd?!?!
He should be picked in the 1st!

:Kellogg:

[phthalatemagic]

Deuce could be a great player. He right now is a pretty good guard.

The other guys, I'm not so proud of. Need more shake ups at OL. You can't make chicken salad out of, well you know. You could, but it will taste very bad.

[abrecher]

target edge in round 3 all you want, but realize you aren't going to get him...

He went pick 4.06 in a 12 team startup dynasty league. I wouldn't pick him in the 2nd round and likely not even the 3rd, even in a redraft. You can have him.

This is lunacy. For those down on Edge, just remember, he finished 5th in touches last year with 375. Barring injury, he should finish no lower than 7-8 in touches again.

Any particular reason why you say that? He's older than most starting RBs, and he won't have Dennis Green running him into the ground any more. There have already been rumblings that Whisenhunt wants to give Shipp more touches to ease Edge's workload.

I wouldn't expect him to reach the top ten in touches this year.

This post has been edited by abrecher: Jul 6 2007, 12:56 PM

[BigRed]

IMO "rumblings" are meaningless, and the OL should be at least a little better this year. Coaching-wise I don't see a diff in his touches either way on the horizon.

But what people keep ignoring is his big "stretch run" near the end was mostly against weak Ds. And yes, he's getting up there for a RB. He is also overrated as a receiver IMO.

[rascal]

The offensive line improved as the year went along, as evidenced by Edge's YPG going up almost 2.0 per carry from weeks 1-8 to 9-16.

Adding Gimm, Brown, and Gundy should help the line even more.

He won't return to his production in Indy, but IMO Edge should be better and possibly average 4.0 YPC. Good enough for a second round pick IMO.

This post has been edited by rascal: Jul 6 2007, 03:26 PM

[gianmarco]

The offensive line improved as the year went along, as evidenced by Edge's YPG going up almost 2.0 per carry from weeks 1-8 to 9-16.

Adding Gimm, Brown, and Gundy should help the line even more.

He won't return to his production in Indy, but IMO Edge should be better and possibly average 4.0 YPC. Good enough for a second round pick IMO.

The problem with that is that's also most likely his ceiling with virtually no upside, IMO. That being the case, that's almost a reach for a 2nd round pick. His value comes into play in the 3rd-4th round. I can think of other players I'd rather have in the 2nd round with a little more upside than him. If he doesn't get to that 4.0 ypc mark, then your 2nd round pick lost all its value. That's a very real possibility.

[SSOG]

target edge in round 3 all you want, but realize you aren't going to get him...

He went pick 4.06 in a 12 team startup dynasty league. I wouldn't pick him in the 2nd round and likely not even the 3rd, even in a redraft. You can have him.

He went 5.03 in my 10-team startup dynasty league, which translates to just one pick later (pick #43 overall compared to pick #42 overall).

dynasty, i see him lower, but at 4.06 sounds like that league needs some sharks...

FBGs has him ranked 40th in initial dynasty, which translates to 4.04. Do we need more sharks on the staff of FBGs, too?

[redman]

Like every other year that this Arizona team is new and improved, I just don't see it.

This is not the first time they've brought in respected coordinators and big names from around the league to turn their franchise around. Heck, this isn't the first time time someone involved with the Hogs has been in Arizona as a coach (Joe Bugel).

First of all, Bugel was there almost 20 years ago. That's not exactly current news. Secondly, I love the guy but it was shocking to me that he was hired at all given that he'd never even held a coordinator's position in the NFL, much less been a head coach before; it was ridiculous that the Raiders then turned around and hired him afterwards. Bugel is the classic case of a guy who makes a very good soldier but a very poor general. Give him an o-line to coach and he's good to go. I doubt that he was much able to focus on the o-line of the Cards when he was the head coach of a team with so many other problems, not least of which was the ownership which was less than devoted to on-field success.

[Thorpe]

Gandy is horrible. Arizona is paying Grimm 1.3 mil a year to coach these bums. That has to be the most for a position coach.

[Ron_Mexico]

target edge in round 3 all you want, but realize you aren't going to get him...

You're kidding, right ?

[Sigmund Bloom]

target edge in round 3 all you want, but realize you aren't going to get him...

You're kidding, right ?

Edge just went early 2nd (2.04) in a staff league that we are drafting right now.

[Shermanator]

He is obviously going much later in dynasty leagues. But redrafts he is a 2nd rounder

[kensat30]

Edge was the lowest scoring RB with 300+ carries last year. Even Jamal freaking Lewis outproduced him. Where are all the hype threads touting Jamal in the 2nd?

[Sigmund Bloom]

Edge was the lowest scoring RB with 300+ carries last year. Even Jamal freaking Lewis outproduced him. Where are all the hype threads touting Jamal in the 2nd?

Lewis did not finish nearly as strong as Edge, and he's joining a team that has instability at QB, and did not express a re-dedication to running the ball in the offseason. Apples and Oranges. If Edge doesn't get pulled for Shipp for three TDs in one of his best games last year, his number would have more than justified a pick in the top 15 RBs. You're playing with fire if you let the LT owner get Edge at the 2/3 turn.

[rascal]

Edge was the lowest scoring RB with 300+ carries last year. Even Jamal freaking Lewis outproduced him. Where are all the hype threads touting Jamal in the 2nd?

Lewis did not finish nearly as strong as Edge, and he's joining a team that has instability at QB, and did not express a re-dedication to running the ball in the offseason. Apples and Oranges. If Edge doesn't get pulled for Shipp for three TDs in one of his best games last year, his number would have more than justified a pick in the top 15 RBs. You're playing with fire if you let the LT owner get Edge at the 2/3 turn.

If I have LT and see Edge sitting there at the turn...I'll petition the league to go ahead and send me my winnings and save everybody else time and humiliation.

[rascal]

The offensive line improved as the year went along, as evidenced by Edge's YPG going up almost 2.0 per carry from weeks 1-8 to 9-16.

Adding Gimm, Brown, and Gundy should help the line even more.

He won't return to his production in Indy, but IMO Edge should be better and possibly average 4.0 YPC. Good enough for a second round pick IMO.

The problem with that is that's also most likely his ceiling with virtually no upside, IMO. That being the case, that's almost a reach for a 2nd round pick. His value comes into play in the 3rd-4th round. I can think of other players I'd rather have in the 2nd round with a little more upside than him. If he doesn't get to that 4.0 ypc mark, then your 2nd round pick lost all its value. That's a very real possibility.

I think his floor is what you saw last year. He may not get as many touches, but the o-line will be better and his TD count should go up to a normal ratio.

[MSULions]

target edge in round 3 all you want, but realize you aren't going to get him...

He went pick 4.06 in a 12 team startup dynasty league. I wouldn't pick him in the 2nd round and likely not even the 3rd, even in a redraft. You can have him.

dynasty, i see him lower, but at 4.06 sounds like that league needs some sharks...

sounds like that league has a bunch of sharks to me.

[benbadman]

Edge has been a perennial 1st round RB pick in fantasy. Even if he is projected by "experts" and super-fans to play like a 3rd or 4th round caliber fantasy player, his reputation coupled with the possibilities of the Arizona passing attack will have him going in the mid to late 2nd round.

For those critics that are writing Edge off based on the sum of his 2006 stats, 337carries for 1159 yards 3.4ypc; you should look at some game logs.

12/03 @STL 26-115-0td
12/10 SEA 26-115-1
12/17 DEN 14-63-1
12/24 @SF 29-105-0
12/31 @SD 16-66-1

That's 5 solid games in *December* against 2006 playoff contention teams, where he averaged 4.2 ypc.

In 2007, Arizona does have the "easiest" fantasy schedule as well, thanks in part to six games vs the NFC West. Considering the team's toughest matchups on paper are weeks 3 @BAL and week 4 hosting PIT, you might want to grab a RB3 to start those weeks and his week 8 bye. The rest of the Cardinals weekly matchups are fantasy clown shoes.

[Pygmy Marmoset]

target edge in round 3 all you want, but realize you aren't going to get him...

He went pick 4.06 in a 12 team startup dynasty league. I wouldn't pick him in the 2nd round and likely not even the 3rd, even in a redraft. You can have him.

That's significantly higher than he went in my initial dynasty draft this year. Granted, we use really whacked out rosters and scoring, but still.

[gianmarco]

Edge has been a perennial 1st round RB pick in fantasy. Even if he is projected by "experts" and super-fans to play like a 3rd or 4th round caliber fantasy player, his reputation coupled with the possibilities of the Arizona passing attack will have him going in the mid to late 2nd round.

For those critics that are writing Edge off based on the sum of his 2006 stats, 337carries for 1159 yards 3.4ypc; you should look at some game logs.

12/03 @STL 26-115-0td
12/10 SEA 26-115-1
12/17 DEN 14-63-1
12/24 @SF 29-105-0
12/31 @SD 16-66-1

That's 5 solid games in *December* against 2006 playoff contention teams, where he averaged 4.2 ypc.

In 2007, Arizona does have the "easiest" fantasy schedule as well, thanks in part to six games vs the NFC West. Considering the team's toughest matchups on paper are weeks 3 @BAL and week 4 hosting PIT, you might want to grab a RB3 to start those weeks and his week 8 bye. The rest of the Cardinals weekly matchups are fantasy clown shoes.

First of all, I don't just look at stats. I actually watch players play sometimes. I watched Edge. He was a fantastic RB and a fantastic talent when he came into the league and in his prime at Indy. He's now lost a step and he now plays for the Cardinals. His stats aren't the only reason to push him down in the rankings (even though they are enough).

Also, I'm looking at that game log. I see 3 games barely over 100 yds and it took him 26 carries, 26 carries, and 29 carries to get those #'s. If you think he'll last a season getting 25+ carries/game then you are kidding yourself and that's about the only way he's gonna get 100 yds for the most part. That's a 400 carry season. I also see two other games for 63 yds and 66 yds. Yeah, he scored 1 TD each. That's really the only thing to take from that game log and it's not convincing enough for me to move him up into the 2nd or even 3rd round.

This is a guy that has carried the ball over 2500 times in his career in addition to almost 400 receptions. Looking at last year and expecting an increase in his #'s going into his 8th full year of heave workloads and behind the Arizona O-line, even with new coaching staff, is trying to turn water into wine. And I'm not sure I'd draft Edge that early even if Jesus told me to.

ETA--Given the fact that he might struggle early on with his matchups, the thing I WOULD do is let someone else draft him that high and then when they sour on him early after a slow start a la 2006 Jordan, then buy him really low and see if can get anything out of him after that. But make that buying him really, really low.

This post has been edited by gianmarco: Jul 8 2007, 07:57 PM