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Why are players getting into more trouble now than in the past? (1 Viewer)

JohnnyU

JohnnyU

Footballguy
In light of the Vick fiasco, and the overall trouble athletes seem to get into now compared to yesteryear, I wonder what is different now than the way it used to be.

1) Are players coddled more now than way back when?

2) Does the extra cash make a difference?

3) Is it related to child rearing in general now compared to 30 years ago?

4) Is it because parents are not allow to whip the #### of their children?

5) Is there more disrespect to the fellow human being than there used to be?

6) Is it more of a "me society" than it used to be?

You guys can add to the list, because it makes me sick thinking of more. It's clear, the quality of human decency isn't what it once was. Athletes have been icons for about a century, yet they don't seem to accept the iconic status the same now as they once did. Somehow I think the social evolution of people in general has more to do with it than sports. It makes me sad to see it. I would like to think that everything goes in cycles, but I'm afraid I won't be alive to see this one make full circle.

 
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Maybe they aren't. Maybe cops and reporters used to look the other way more. Maybe we're hearing more about it because it's on the news more. Maybe our overly litigious society is getting people to sue these guys so they can get their payday.

 
Some may say that back in the old days the media simply turned their heads, or they just weren't getting caught. I agree that today it's a microcosm of the current state of society. Today's athletes believe they can get away with anything.

 
bostonfred said:
Maybe they aren't. Maybe cops and reporters used to look the other way more. Maybe we're hearing more about it because it's on the news more. Maybe our overly litigious society is getting people to sue these guys so they can get their payday.
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See what I mean?
 
Mickey Mantle and Babe Ruth were no saints...they were much worse than a guy like A-Rod who has chosen to have an affair and is all over the tabloids. The media and the general public today like to scrutinize much more today than in the past.

I do believe that athletes are getting into more serious (versus "boys will be boys") trouble today than they would in the past. I don't remember Bart Starr having any dog fighting issues.

 
dickey moe said:
Some may say that back in the old days the media simply turned their heads, or they just weren't getting caught. I agree that today it's a microcosm of the current state of society. Today's athletes believe they can get away with anything.
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I'm not sure that is 100% accurate. I don't think Mickey Mantle worried about getting into trouble. Maybe it is more media related. If the same media today put Mantle under the same microscope, I'm sure his legecy wouldn't be the same. Can you imagine if today's media followed Babe Ruth around? On the flip side, there were far less of those characters then than there are today IMO. I still believe that human to human relations back then were based upon more respect than it is today.
 
JohnnyU said:
In light of the Vick fiasco, and the overall trouble athletes seem to get into now compared to yesteryear, I wonder what is different now than the way it used to be.1) Are players coddled more now than way back when?2) Does the extra cash make a difference?3) Is it related to child rearing in general now compared to 30 years ago?4) Is it because parents are not allow to whip the #### of their children?5) Is there more disrespect to the fellow human being than there used to be?6) Is it more of a "me society" than it used to be?You guys can add to the list, because it makes me sick thinking of more. It's clear, the quality of human decency isn't what it once was. Athletes have been icons for about a century, yet they don't seem to accept the iconic status the same now as they once did. Somehow I think the social evolution of people in general has more to do with it than sports. It makes me sad to see it. I would like to think that everything goes in cycles, but I'm afraid I won't be alive to see this one make full circle.
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:thumbup: I agree that all of the above plays a significant part in how out of hand things seem to be today.Also, what with communication being almost instantaneous and worldwide in scope nowadays, incidents that may in the past have been very local in exposure are literally on our 'virtual doorstep' every morning.Id
 
JohnnyU said:
In light of the Vick fiasco, and the overall trouble athletes seem to get into now compared to yesteryear, I wonder what is different now than the way it used to be.1) Are players coddled more now than way back when?2) Does the extra cash make a difference?3) Is it related to child rearing in general now compared to 30 years ago?4) Is it because parents are not allow to whip the #### of their children?5) Is there more disrespect to the fellow human being than there used to be?6) Is it more of a "me society" than it used to be?You guys can add to the list, because it makes me sick thinking of more. It's clear, the quality of human decency isn't what it once was. Athletes have been icons for about a century, yet they don't seem to accept the iconic status the same now as they once did. Somehow I think the social evolution of people in general has more to do with it than sports. It makes me sad to see it. I would like to think that everything goes in cycles, but I'm afraid I won't be alive to see this one make full circle.
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All of the above, especially the last 3.
 
bostonfred said:
Maybe they aren't. Maybe cops and reporters used to look the other way more. Maybe we're hearing more about it because it's on the news more. Maybe our overly litigious society is getting people to sue these guys so they can get their payday.
Click to expand...
:thumbup: Society and the legislature have, over the years, made more and more things illegal. For instance, I'm a relatively young (less than ten years in the field) attorney in Texas. I have seen the changes in the DWI law, family violence law, and other aspects of law that allow more people to get caught in the system. DWIs were .1 Blood alcohol content when I started; now it's .08. Was dogfighting illegal 50 years ago? Probably not. Technology and the media have also made proliferation of "news" almost instantaneous. Was there an internet to spread news, good and bad, about our heroes almost instantaneously?New legislation (or over-legislation, to some) and technology / media I think are the culprits.
 
elpasotexan said:
bostonfred said:
Maybe they aren't. Maybe cops and reporters used to look the other way more. Maybe we're hearing more about it because it's on the news more. Maybe our overly litigious society is getting people to sue these guys so they can get their payday.
Click to expand...
:thumbup: Society and the legislature have, over the years, made more and more things illegal. For instance, I'm a relatively young (less than ten years in the field) attorney in Texas. I have seen the changes in the DWI law, family violence law, and other aspects of law that allow more people to get caught in the system. DWIs were .1 Blood alcohol content when I started; now it's .08. Was dogfighting illegal 50 years ago? Probably not. Technology and the media have also made proliferation of "news" almost instantaneous. Was there an internet to spread news, good and bad, about our heroes almost instantaneously?New legislation (or over-legislation, to some) and technology / media I think are the culprits.
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While I agree with the "technology / media" factors magnifying events, I also believe that humans don't look at doing right by others and themselves like they used to. Yes, there have always been rebels and misfits, but I honestly believe that today's society care more about "what have you done for me lately" than society of years ago.
 
JohnnyU said:
dickey moe said:
Some may say that back in the old days the media simply turned their heads, or they just weren't getting caught. I agree that today it's a microcosm of the current state of society. Today's athletes believe they can get away with anything.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure that is 100% accurate. I don't think Mickey Mantle worried about getting into trouble. Maybe it is more media related. If the same media today put Mantle under the same microscope, I'm sure his legecy wouldn't be the same. Can you imagine if today's media followed Babe Ruth around? On the flip side, there were far less of those characters then than there are today IMO. I still believe that human to human relations back then were based upon more respect than it is today.
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Did you quote the wrong post or are we "connected" :thumbup:
 
Sweet Love said:
JohnnyU said:
dickey moe said:
Some may say that back in the old days the media simply turned their heads, or they just weren't getting caught. I agree that today it's a microcosm of the current state of society. Today's athletes believe they can get away with anything.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure that is 100% accurate. I don't think Mickey Mantle worried about getting into trouble. Maybe it is more media related. If the same media today put Mantle under the same microscope, I'm sure his legecy wouldn't be the same. Can you imagine if today's media followed Babe Ruth around? On the flip side, there were far less of those characters then than there are today IMO. I still believe that human to human relations back then were based upon more respect than it is today.
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Did you quote the wrong post or are we "connected" :confused:
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Actually I quoted Dickey Moe, not you. I do find it ironic that I posted that before reading your comments on Mantle and Ruth, lol.
 
bostonfred said:
Maybe they aren't. Maybe cops and reporters used to look the other way more. Maybe we're hearing more about it because it's on the news more. Maybe our overly litigious society is getting people to sue these guys so they can get their payday.
Click to expand...
This is a huge part of it. But, also look at where so many of these guys came from, in their upbringing. Many had nothing, and then over night they have more money than they could ever imagine. And, I think it may have been Allen Iverson who noted that the reason these guys still hang with the ruffians of their youth is because those guys were there before they made it big- friends for life, the only people they think they can trust. Alot of times, the temptations are just overwhelming.I'm not sympathetic to these guys... we all make our choices... but I can see how they get down that path.Still, as for the frequency, it seems to have escalated with the amount of money available to these guys, and they're under a microscope, so we hear about it all the time, from countless sources.
 
freshly_shorn said:
I think it may have been Allen Iverson who noted that the reason these guys still hang with the ruffians of their youth is because those guys were there before they made it big- friends for life, the only people they think they can trust. Alot of times, the temptations are just overwhelming.
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I think this statement is HUGE. :confused:
 
There are many factors at work...

These are my thoughts on it...

--Today's athletes are more recognizable with the advance of technology/communication.

This leads to more attention and scrutiny... The attention leads to more wild scenes when athletes show up at clubs. The scrutiny from both the press/ the general population/ bloggers/ thesmokingguun.com often means they get caught more... I think to a certain degree, fans hear way more about the non-athletic lives of athletes.

--Today's athletes make more money and have more prestige in their social circles than athletes from years past.

With athletes being more glorified/paid now, I would argue that a higher sense of of entitlement has emerged. Power and wealth tend to lead to feelings of invincibility.

--There are more blacks in professional sports than there used to be.

Any one that disputes that black criminals are not more feared by the public than white criminals needs to read up on Willie Horton or re-watch the reactions to video tape from New Orleans. This fact <I>usually</I> means more attention to a black athlete accused of a crime than a white athlete...

--A culture has emerged that understands the purpose of violence in a different way than in generations past. I think some of this is class tension as this country experiences the highest poverty rates in the age of television. Sure, there were lots of poor people in the past, but there was a large enough middle/upper class that the media pandered its message to suit their ideals. Now with tremendous portions of our population working for less than a living wage, there seems to be growing desire/receptiveness to <I>TOUGHER</I> types of media, ie gangst rap, IFC, etc. I mean Boxing and the show Dukes of Hazard seem tame compared to what people are watching today... I can't imagine 24 having as large of an audience in the 50s... or even the 80s...

These are just a few off the top of my head...

I really don't think it's as simple as "Parents aren't allowed to whoop their children since there's absolutely nothing to show that physical punishment reduces criminal/"poor" behavior.

 
strong said:
There are many factors at work...

These are my thoughts on it...

--Today's athletes are more recognizable with the advance of technology/communication.

Not true, hell, athletes were probably more relevent years ago because of more distractions today. Contrary to poplular belief, people read newspapers more in the past than today because of the internet.

--Today's athletes make more money and have more prestige in their social circles than athletes from years past.

Athletes made a lot of money for playing a game back then also, so it's relative. I disagree that they have more prestige in their social circles. Athletes have always been reverred.

With athletes being more glorified/paid now, I would argue that a higher sense of of entitlement has emerged. Power and wealth tend to lead to feelings of invincibility.

I agree that a higher sense of entitlement has emerged, but yesterday's athlete seem to accept it with more responsibility.

--There are more blacks in professional sports than there used to be.

Any one that disputes that black criminals are not more feared by the public than white criminals needs to read up on Willie Horton or re-watch the reactions to video tape from New Orleans. This fact <I>usually</I> means more attention to a black athlete accused of a crime than a white athlete...

There were more black baseball players in the 70s - 90s than there are today, but I do believe that gangsta mentality plays a role.

I really don't think it's as simple as "Parents aren't allowed to whoop their children since there's absolutely nothing to show that physical punishment reduces criminal/"poor" behavior.

Well, I think the threat of a good #### whipping does increase the respect of children toward others. It's crazy to think that children can make right choices all the time when their minds haven't developed and have no fear of their parents. I'm not saying that all dicipline should be based upon fear, but I am saying that it does work under some circumstances.
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Two things:

1) Athletes today are too pampered. The pampering starts at an early age. Once a Pop Warner or High School football coach realizes that a boy can throw,run or catch a ball well....he becomes the king of the county. He's given preferential treatment. He's viewed differently, more important than his peers and he's given a certain level of impunity that others don't get. Most great athletes have an great ego that goes with it and it starts when they are young.

2) They are too rich...too young. This money just adds to the ego, the mystique the impunity. Twenty year olds, who are used to getting just about everything they want from other people are now given the ability to buy whatever they want. Unfortunately, that money often goes to man-children whose moral values are skewed from a combination of age and being pampered their whole lives.

In short.....our society builds these monsters. We give them our adoration, let our children emulate them, build them up to near godlike status. I'm sure that most of the people on this board would be a little skewed if they had millions and have been told since they were in junior high that they were the greatest thing since sliced bread.

 
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JohnnyU said:
freshly_shorn said:
I think it may have been Allen Iverson who noted that the reason these guys still hang with the ruffians of their youth is because those guys were there before they made it big- friends for life, the only people they think they can trust. Alot of times, the temptations are just overwhelming.
Click to expand...
I think this statement is HUGE. :hifive:
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AI smashed a chair over someones head in a bowling alley brawl in HS..caught on tape if I am not mistaken.
 
25-30 years ago, a majority of athletes were not making huge money. Most had "regular" jobs during the off season. If your working 40+ hours a week in a warehouse or construction, you don't have the time or money to make it "rain" at a strip club in Vegas.

 
Da Guru said:
JohnnyU said:
freshly_shorn said:
I think it may have been Allen Iverson who noted that the reason these guys still hang with the ruffians of their youth is because those guys were there before they made it big- friends for life, the only people they think they can trust. Alot of times, the temptations are just overwhelming.
Click to expand...
I think this statement is HUGE. :bye:
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AI smashed a chair over someones head in a bowling alley brawl in HS..caught on tape if I am not mistaken.
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C'mon.... we've all done that.
 
I don't know which I hate more, athletes who constantly get into trouble, or the girl / guy in the office who uses "like" in every sentence, lol.

 
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People who say that today's athletes are worse than in day's past have a myopic sense of history.

The only difference is that everything was covered up back then and everything is scrutinized today.

Ty Cobb jumped into the stands and beat a man who had no hands.

Babe Ruth missed almost an entire season that the press reported was because of a stomach ailemt but was in reality a venereal disease.

George Gipp--despite Ronald Reagan's propaganda--was not some benevolent saint, but a staggering drunk who also contracted VD.

I read a story about Hank Greenberg and the overwhelming anti-Semitism unleashed on him by his fellow players; and of course the torment that Jackie Robinson suffered through.

Joe DiMaggio beat on Marilyn Monroe.

Mickey Mantle and Billy Martin got into a (in)famous nightclub brawl during spring training.

Every time Mantle went in and asked for a raise, the Yankees management would pull out a dossier of photos taken of him in all sort of compromising situations.

Art Donovan's book is filled with stories of drunken driving, and bar fights. Paul Hornung, too.

 
JohnnyU said:
strong said:
There are many factors at work...

These are my thoughts on it...

--Today's athletes are more recognizable with the advance of technology/communication.

Not true, hell, athletes were probably more relevent years ago because of more distractions today. Contrary to poplular belief, people read newspapers more in the past than today because of the internet.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Of course more people read newspapers back in the day, but how many pictures were in a newspaper? Today we are bombarded more with images of athletes than in years past. Two reasons: Advanced technology makes it easier to send images via television and the internet and the nature of the corporate sports world is to place those images in the minds of consumers.

We now have several stations that broadcast sports 24 hours a day as well as tons of internet sites...

If you believe that athletes were more recognizable in the past because everyone read newspapers and picked up an issue of The Sporting News each week and looked at one color photo on the cover, then I'm surprised you're technologically advanced enough to browse the web...



JohnnyU said:
strong said:
--Today's athletes make more money and have more prestige in their social circles than athletes from years past.

Athletes made a lot of money for playing a game back then also, so it's relative. I disagree that they have more prestige in their social circles. Athletes have always been reverred.

With athletes being more glorified/paid now, I would argue that a higher sense of of entitlement has emerged. Power and wealth tend to lead to feelings of invincibility.

I agree that a higher sense of entitlement has emerged, but yesterday's athlete seem to accept it with more responsibility.
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Click to expand...
Athletes made some money back in the day, but it's no secret that the unionization of professional sports has helped athletes get a larger piece of the pie... Relatively speaking...

Oh, and Babe Ruth's salary in today's dollars is just over 1 million smackers per year... Considering the average salary in the MLB is 2.3 million, I'm going out on a limb and saying athletes make more money today... relatively speaking. This is true for the other major professional sports, too...

In fact, the study I read for the Ruth numbers was conducted by high schoolers. I'm sure you'll be able to understand they're math...



JohnnyU said:
strong said:
--There are more blacks in professional sports than there used to be.

Any one that disputes that black criminals are not more feared by the public than white criminals needs to read up on Willie Horton or re-watch the reactions to video tape from New Orleans. This fact <I>usually</I> means more attention to a black athlete accused of a crime than a white athlete...

There were more black baseball players in the 70s - 90s than there are today, but I do believe that gangsta mentality plays a role.
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Did I say Black players have increased in baseball?

Thanks for coming up with one sport where black athletes have decreased... You're a genius.

Oh, and does baseball have a reputation as a thug sport? Coincidence? I don't think so...

JohnnyU said:
strong said:
I really don't think it's as simple as "Parents aren't allowed to whoop their children since there's absolutely nothing to show that physical punishment reduces criminal/"poor" behavior.

Well, I think the threat of a good #### whipping does increase the respect of children toward others. It's crazy to think that children can make right choices all the time when their minds haven't developed and have no fear of their parents. I'm not saying that all dicipline should be based upon fear, but I am saying that it does work under some circumstances.


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Who said children can make the right choices all the time? And yes, fear does motivate children... but it's piss poor at keeping those children out of trouble when they're older.
 
There's a study out there you should search for...forget where it is, but it had strong evidence that the crime rate among NFL players is not any higher than the national average.

I find that not just in sports but in ANYTHING, the good ol' days were almost never actually that good - studying history pays off.

Ty Cobb was already mentioned, but there was also the time he nearly beat a black man to death for no good reason. Racial violence of that sort was not uncommon in those days. Heck, violence in GENERAL may have been more common - grown men would get into fistfights over the dumbest things all the time, and nobody thought it was odd.

Most likely, there are fewer violent incidents nowadays, but the ones that do occur are more likely to be fatal. I wonder if this may have something to do with more widespread gun ownership, but I don't actually have any data offhand.

Also, dog-fighting is a tradition in the rural South that's been going on for decades - nobody thought anything of it until very recently. Even drunk driving was never considered a big deal until the last couple decades - Pinky Higgins pulled a Leonard Little while managing the Red Sox, and his reputation didn't suffer nearly to the degree that Little's has.

The old sportswriters definitely had an ethic of not reporting things which weren't picked up by the general media. I have a book on the history of Sports Illustrated, and there were some examples of this in there. For instance, one of their writers was interviewing Larry Csonka and one of the other Dolphins RBs (Jim Kiick or Mercury Morris, I forget which), and afterward they all smoked dope together, no big deal. This wasn't even just sportswriters, either - political journalists operated under a very similar "code". Just look at how JFK's affairs were covered up, and compare that with the coverage of Bill Clinton.

Certain types of crime are likely more common nowadays (some legitimately so, and some just because they have been more broadly defined), and certain types are likely less common. I would definitely like to see a new study that looks at specific types of crime, though - I suspect drugs and domestic violence may be more common among football players, as is the case with pro wrestlers. Not because of any "moral decline" or anything, but because of steroid abuse...

And yes, the lack of corporal punishment is a pretty obvious non-factor. The body of evidence strongly suggests that the best non-violent measures are better at promoting long-term good behavior.

People are up in arms over this because there have been a bunch of major news stories of NFL criminal behavior over the past year, and they think the news media accurately represents the overall picture. This is a major, major mistake.

I recall a few years ago when the mass hysteria was child abductions, which led to the Amber Alert IIRC. Everyone thought there was this outbreak of them, but in reality the abduction rate was *decreasing* during this period; the media just needed interesting stories to fill dead air, and these were some of the most convenient options.

There's also the case of the Republican Party of the late 80s, who enjoyed success with their "Tough On Crime" mantra. Once again, there was this perception of a violent crime wave across the country, when the rate of such crime was actually going down; dramatic stories such as that of the aforementioned Willie Horton were the source of this fear.

Remember, everyone, journalism is a business too.

Overall, I think protecting the long-term health of players is magnitudes more important than this issue, but I understand that this is a huge PR deal and that's a significant aspect of any business.

-Josh

 
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Sweet Love said:
Mickey Mantle and Babe Ruth were no saints...they were much worse than a guy like A-Rod who has chosen to have an affair and is all over the tabloids. The media and the general public today like to scrutinize much more today than in the past. I do believe that athletes are getting into more serious (versus "boys will be boys") trouble today than they would in the past. I don't remember Bart Starr having any dog fighting issues.
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No because at that time dog fights would have gone unnoticed.
 
We've become a tabloid society, and our insatiable thirst for the latest scandal is never quenched. With more and more media outlets springing up everyday due to the internet, the desire to grab the readers attention has increased as well.

 
strong said:
In fact, the study I read for the Ruth numbers was conducted by high schoolers. I'm sure you'll be able to understand they're math...
Click to expand...
Since you were very insulting to me, maybe you should learn some english. It's "their math", not "they're math". If you want to use "they're", try it in a sentence like "They're out of town for the weekend".
 
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Encyclopedia Brown said:
People who say that today's athletes are worse than in day's past have a myopic sense of history.The only difference is that everything was covered up back then and everything is scrutinized today.Ty Cobb jumped into the stands and beat a man who had no hands.Babe Ruth missed almost an entire season that the press reported was because of a stomach ailemt but was in reality a venereal disease.George Gipp--despite Ronald Reagan's propaganda--was not some benevolent saint, but a staggering drunk who also contracted VD.I read a story about Hank Greenberg and the overwhelming anti-Semitism unleashed on him by his fellow players; and of course the torment that Jackie Robinson suffered through.Joe DiMaggio beat on Marilyn Monroe.Mickey Mantle and Billy Martin got into a (in)famous nightclub brawl during spring training. Every time Mantle went in and asked for a raise, the Yankees management would pull out a dossier of photos taken of him in all sort of compromising situations.Art Donovan's book is filled with stories of drunken driving, and bar fights. Paul Hornung, too.
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:goodposting: Back then the media called these guys "characters" or "colorful".....now, the media calls them criminals or thugs.
 
elpasotexan said:
bostonfred said:
Maybe they aren't. Maybe cops and reporters used to look the other way more. Maybe we're hearing more about it because it's on the news more. Maybe our overly litigious society is getting people to sue these guys so they can get their payday.
Click to expand...
:goodposting: Society and the legislature have, over the years, made more and more things illegal. For instance, I'm a relatively young (less than ten years in the field) attorney in Texas. I have seen the changes in the DWI law, family violence law, and other aspects of law that allow more people to get caught in the system. DWIs were .1 Blood alcohol content when I started; now it's .08. Was dogfighting illegal 50 years ago? Probably not. Technology and the media have also made proliferation of "news" almost instantaneous. Was there an internet to spread news, good and bad, about our heroes almost instantaneously?New legislation (or over-legislation, to some) and technology / media I think are the culprits.
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This is really important, considering that the majority of the crimes athletes commit (at least as far as I can tell) are related to DUI/DWI or domestic violence. Both of these crimes have certainly been more and more criminalized and highly scrutinized over the course of the past 50 years.
 
JohnnyU said:
strong said:
In fact, the study I read for the Ruth numbers was conducted by high schoolers. I'm sure you'll be able to understand they're math...
Click to expand...
Since you were very insulting to me, maybe you should learn some english. It's "their math", not "they're math". If you want to use "they're", try it in a sentence like "They're out of town for the weekend".
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I was going to mention the same thing. :loco: to being a jerk to someone who disagrees, but :thumbup: when you make yourself look stupid while being a jerk.
 
Jayrod said:
JohnnyU said:
strong said:
In fact, the study I read for the Ruth numbers was conducted by high schoolers. I'm sure you'll be able to understand they're math...
Click to expand...
Since you were very insulting to me, maybe you should learn some english. It's "their math", not "they're math". If you want to use "they're", try it in a sentence like "They're out of town for the weekend".
Click to expand...
I was going to mention the same thing. :unsure: to being a jerk to someone who disagrees, but :thumbup: when you make yourself look stupid while being a jerk.
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Yes, I agree. Opinions are demonstrated with a lot more effectiveness when slander is omitted. I don't mind others disagreeing with me, hell, I welcome it. I thought it would be a topic of interest, and I sure as hell don't have the answers, only opinions.
 
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