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Payton's playcalling (1 Viewer)

sholditch

sholditch

Footballguy
I have never seen such a rinky-dink assortment of trick plays and generally disjointed offensive philosophy as I saw in that game. Deuce ran well but he was hardly used. Bush was used inappropriately on a lot of plays ie runs up the middle. The o-line looked bad, but to me it looked like gadget plays were substituted for really establishing a run game, and because of that the offense never got in sync. I'll admit I was extra-pissed as a Deuce owner (can't imagine how the Bush owners feel) but I think the results speak for themselves. The no. 1 offense a year ago can't even score a TD.

fixed

 
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sholditch said:
I have never seen such a rinky-dink assortment of trick plays and generally disjointed offensive philosophy as I saw in that game. Deuce ran well but he was hardly used. Bush was used inappropriately on a lot of plays ie runs up the middle. The o-line looked bad, but to me it looked like gadget plays were substituted for really establishing a run game, and because of that the offense never got in sync. I'll admit I was extra-pissed as a Deuce owner (can't imagine how the Bush owners feel) but I think the results speak for themselves. The no. 1 defense a year ago can't even score a TD.
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The Def. did score a TD.
 
It could be that Brees couldn't throw more than 10 yards downfield without hitting a defender in the hands.

 
I really think the forcing the ball to Bush in inappropriate situations killed a lot of drives that could have been easily sustained by an effective run game. It's almost like Payton thought that simply attacking the Colts's DTs was too simple of a strategy. If they had consistently run between the tackles, and it looked like Deuce was more than up to the task, they would have been attacking the Colt's weakest area and would have worn the defense down.

 
Payton is a really perplexing guy. I was (mistakenly) down on him as the Saints HC hire because of the vivid memories of him as the play-caller in NY and Dallas. How many offensive play callers get their jobs taken away in midseason not once, but twice! And yet, he not only proved me wrong last year but seemed perfectly suited to call a dynamic playbook and also manage the myriad duties of being a head coach.

I think last night he looked a lot more like the guy who lost his play calling duties to Jim Fassel in New York than he did the guy who won Coach of the Year last season; but I'm also fairly confident that Saints fans can rest easy because Payton will study the film more than anyone and see that he fell into a very formulaic pattern last night.

 
sholditch said:
I have never seen such a rinky-dink assortment of trick plays and generally disjointed offensive philosophy as I saw in that game. Deuce ran well but he was hardly used. Bush was used inappropriately on a lot of plays ie runs up the middle. The o-line looked bad, but to me it looked like gadget plays were substituted for really establishing a run game, and because of that the offense never got in sync. I'll admit I was extra-pissed as a Deuce owner (can't imagine how the Bush owners feel) but I think the results speak for themselves. The no. 1 defense a year ago can't even score a TD.
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Bush likes to dance and needs an invite to "Dancing with the Stars" ASAP.The play calling was bad BUT a lot of that was because the colts defense was causing mayhem in the Saints backfield. Dwight Freeney had a good game and the Colts pressured the Saints almost all night. Their offense never got into any type of rhythm. Once the Colts offense finally got clicking it was over.
 
Payton's fault is that he occasionally gets much too creative. He did that during the Bears game last year when Deuce was running well. Instead of using him more he abandoned the power running game when the field conditions were ideal for it. I saw the same thing last night. If the safeties are going to cheat deep, then he needs to pound it between the tackles until they respect the run. That's the only way that he will be able to free up the deep pass. If Indy can stop the running game then they deserve to win, but it's futile to stick with the deep passing plays when the Colts were clearly taking that away.

 
Apparently he missed the pregame bit about the DTs being the biggest weak spot for the Colts. I think they had both starters out and only one backup. With that knowledge, it should have been pretty easy to figure out which way to go.

 
Deuce should have had 25 carries yesterday. Game plan was all wrong. They should have gotten them out of the Cover 2 by pounding at them

 
Guys, they played the defending SB champions at home. Colts > Saints. The game was even in the first half, but they got out-coached and out-played in the second. No reason to think they won't be fine, and take their frustrations out on Tampa and Tennessee. Those teams are talented, too, but the Saints are better.

 
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to me, it was all about the (2) quick scores in the 3rd by the Colts.

Saints go 3 and out.

Manning hits Harrison deep (Addai scores TD)

Saints go 3 an out again.

Manning hits Wayne deep (TD)

NO and Brees come out on the next drive and start forcing the pass and desperately trying to make a big play, an INT results and the game is pretty much over at that point.

 
Yeah, the Saints play-calling was atrocious last night. It reminded me of the Rams during the Martz era, what with the play-caller trying to be too cute with his play calls, instead of calling boring ones that would probably work better.

 
TD Ryan said:
to me, it was all about the (2) quick scores in the 3rd by the Colts.Saints go 3 and out.Manning hits Harrison deep (Addai scores TD)Saints go 3 an out again.Manning hits Wayne deep (TD)NO and Brees come out on the next drive and start forcing the pass and desperately trying to make a big play, an INT results and the game is pretty much over at that point.
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4th and inches and they punt. Down by 17 and Indy's O was rolling. You had to imagine that Indy would take it down for at least a FG. They needed a fire under them and punting put it out
 
My fear (as a Brees owner) is if they can't score on a bad Indy defense with alot of inexperienced youth in the secondary, how are they gonna score against the tougher defenses like CAR, CHI, PHI, JAX, and San Fran?

Maybe Brees is the candidate for bust of the year.

Payton and his play calling did seem questionable.

 
Angrymutt said:
4th and inches and they punt. Down by 17 and Indy's O was rolling. You had to imagine that Indy would take it down for at least a FG. They needed a fire under them and punting put it out
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yeah, I was hoping they'd go for it there.At that point, it was late in the 3rd and it didn't matter if IND was starting on NO's 30 or IND's 20; the Colts were gonna' score.That 3rd quarter was the whole game from both real and fantasy football perspective.
 
Payton needs to ditch the "Reggie Ratio" and call a normal offensive game. He is obviously forcing touches for Reggie and you just can't do that.

 
1-10-NO 20 (13:37) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 23 for 3 yards (21-B.Sanders, 28-M.Jackson).

1-10-IND 47 (9:31) 26-D.McAllister right end to IND 46 for 1 yard (94-R.Morris).

3-3-IND 40 (8:17) 26-D.McAllister right tackle to IND 35 for 5 yards (93-D.Freeney, 21-B.Sanders).

2-10-IND 35 (7:31) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 31 for 4 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

1-10-NO 48 (10:21) 26-D.McAllister left end to IND 46 for 6 yards (98-R.Mathis).

2-5-IND 18 (7:17) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 16 for 2 yards (94-R.Morris).

1-10-NO 33 (14:58) 26-D.McAllister left end to NO 39 for 6 yards (58-G.Brackett, 21-B.Sanders).

2-4-NO 39 (14:22) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 40 for 1 yard (54-F.Keiaho, 58-G.Brackett).

2-10-NO 15 (6:03) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to NO 27 for 12 yards (21-B.Sanders).

2-7-IND 48 (1:36) 26-D.McAllister right end to 50 for -2 yards (94-R.Morris).

... For those that say they should have pounded the ball with McAllister more, please tell me why? I see only three quality first or second down carries by him. Tough to keep pounding it when you are looking at 2nd & 8 or 3rd & 5.

These were the biggest mistakes I saw on offense from last night's game:

1st Quarter

3-6-IND 31 (6:51) 25-R.Bush up the middle to IND 34 for -3 yards (79-R.Brock).

- First drive of the game for the Saints. Go for the kill; how many times does a draw get 6+ yards on third down early in the game. Colts were probably looking for the short pass anyways.

3-3-NO 28 (:47) (Shotgun) 9-D.Brees pass short middle to 9-D.Brees pushed ob at NO 30 for 2 yards (41-A.Bethea). Brees' pass deflected by Brock (79).

- If you want to pound the ball, here is the time to do it.

2nd Quarter

3-5-NO 45 (3:05) 9-D.Brees pass short right to 25-R.Bush to NO 40 for -5 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

- This was the third failed attempt to get a first on a third with Bush... give it up already.

4th Quarter

4-1-NO 29 (13:02) 7-S.Weatherford punts 53 yards to IND 18, Center-47-K.Houser. 34-T.Rushing pushed ob at IND 34 for 16 yards (38-U.Young).

- Worst call of the game; down by 17 early in the fourth and need 1 yard. Let's see; punt to the Colts that are steamrolling your D... or fall forward and keep the drive alive.

 
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JimboJim said:
1-10-NO 20 (13:37) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 23 for 3 yards (21-B.Sanders, 28-M.Jackson).

1-10-IND 47 (9:31) 26-D.McAllister right end to IND 46 for 1 yard (94-R.Morris).

3-3-IND 40 (8:17) 26-D.McAllister right tackle to IND 35 for 5 yards (93-D.Freeney, 21-B.Sanders).

2-10-IND 35 (7:31) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 31 for 4 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

1-10-NO 48 (10:21) 26-D.McAllister left end to IND 46 for 6 yards (98-R.Mathis).

2-5-IND 18 (7:17) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 16 for 2 yards (94-R.Morris).

1-10-NO 33 (14:58) 26-D.McAllister left end to NO 39 for 6 yards (58-G.Brackett, 21-B.Sanders).

2-4-NO 39 (14:22) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 40 for 1 yard (54-F.Keiaho, 58-G.Brackett).

2-10-NO 15 (6:03) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to NO 27 for 12 yards (21-B.Sanders).

2-7-IND 48 (1:36) 26-D.McAllister right end to 50 for -2 yards (94-R.Morris).

... For those that say they should have pounded the ball with McAllister more, please tell me why? I see only three quality first or second down carries by him. Tough to keep pounding it when you are looking at 2nd & 8 or 3rd & 5.

These were the biggest mistakes I saw on offense from last night's game:

1st Quarter

3-6-IND 31 (6:51) 25-R.Bush up the middle to IND 34 for -3 yards (79-R.Brock).

- First drive of the game for the Saints. Go for the kill; how many times does a draw get 6+ yards on third down early in the game. Colts were probably looking for the short pass anyways.

3-3-NO 28 (:47) (Shotgun) 9-D.Brees pass short middle to 9-D.Brees pushed ob at NO 30 for 2 yards (41-A.Bethea). Brees' pass deflected by Brock (79).

- If you want to pound the ball, here is the time to do it.

2nd Quarter

3-5-NO 45 (3:05) 9-D.Brees pass short right to 25-R.Bush to NO 40 for -5 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

- This was the third failed attempt to get a first on a third with Bush... give it up already.

4th Quarter

4-1-NO 29 (13:02) 7-S.Weatherford punts 53 yards to IND 18, Center-47-K.Houser. 34-T.Rushing pushed ob at IND 34 for 16 yards (38-U.Young).

- Worst call of the game; down by 17 early in the fourth and need 1 yard. Let's see; punt to the Colts that are steamrolling your D... or fall forward and keep the drive alive.
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Does that help? Most coaches consider 4-5 yards on a carry pretty good. Point is you have to establish a run game and Deuce seemed more than up to the task, yet wasn't used and a run game wasn't established which killed everything. They never let him establish a rhythm.
 
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Warpig said:
My fear (as a Brees owner) is if they can't score on a bad Indy defense with alot of inexperienced youth in the secondary, how are they gonna score against the tougher defenses like CAR, CHI, PHI, JAX, and San Fran?Maybe Brees is the candidate for bust of the year.Payton and his play calling did seem questionable.
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Not so fast there my friend. This Indy D if they can stay healthy looks very good. Keiaho is a major upgrade and when Sanders is on the field he blows up everyone. NO couldn't block the DL on the run or the pass. If they can play from the lead most of the time they will be very good.NO will be fine, they were playing a team that put up a banner last night.
 
sholditch said:
JimboJim said:
1-10-NO 20 (13:37) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 23 for 3 yards (21-B.Sanders, 28-M.Jackson).

1-10-IND 47 (9:31) 26-D.McAllister right end to IND 46 for 1 yard (94-R.Morris).

3-3-IND 40 (8:17) 26-D.McAllister right tackle to IND 35 for 5 yards (93-D.Freeney, 21-B.Sanders).

2-10-IND 35 (7:31) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 31 for 4 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

1-10-NO 48 (10:21) 26-D.McAllister left end to IND 46 for 6 yards (98-R.Mathis).

2-5-IND 18 (7:17) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 16 for 2 yards (94-R.Morris).

1-10-NO 33 (14:58) 26-D.McAllister left end to NO 39 for 6 yards (58-G.Brackett, 21-B.Sanders).

2-4-NO 39 (14:22) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 40 for 1 yard (54-F.Keiaho, 58-G.Brackett).

2-10-NO 15 (6:03) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to NO 27 for 12 yards (21-B.Sanders).

2-7-IND 48 (1:36) 26-D.McAllister right end to 50 for -2 yards (94-R.Morris).

... For those that say they should have pounded the ball with McAllister more, please tell me why? I see only three quality first or second down carries by him. Tough to keep pounding it when you are looking at 2nd & 8 or 3rd & 5.

These were the biggest mistakes I saw on offense from last night's game:

1st Quarter

3-6-IND 31 (6:51) 25-R.Bush up the middle to IND 34 for -3 yards (79-R.Brock).

- First drive of the game for the Saints. Go for the kill; how many times does a draw get 6+ yards on third down early in the game. Colts were probably looking for the short pass anyways.

3-3-NO 28 (:47) (Shotgun) 9-D.Brees pass short middle to 9-D.Brees pushed ob at NO 30 for 2 yards (41-A.Bethea). Brees' pass deflected by Brock (79).

- If you want to pound the ball, here is the time to do it.

2nd Quarter

3-5-NO 45 (3:05) 9-D.Brees pass short right to 25-R.Bush to NO 40 for -5 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

- This was the third failed attempt to get a first on a third with Bush... give it up already.

4th Quarter

4-1-NO 29 (13:02) 7-S.Weatherford punts 53 yards to IND 18, Center-47-K.Houser. 34-T.Rushing pushed ob at IND 34 for 16 yards (38-U.Young).

- Worst call of the game; down by 17 early in the fourth and need 1 yard. Let's see; punt to the Colts that are steamrolling your D... or fall forward and keep the drive alive.
Click to expand...
Does that help? Most coaches consider 4-5 yards on a carry pretty good. Point is you have to establish a run game and Deuce seemed more than up to the task, yet wasn't used and a run game wasn't established which killed everything. They never let him establish a rhythm.
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:excited: Even a gain of only a yard or two early in the game accomplishes two things:

1) It shows the defense (safeties) that you are committed to the run. They will have to play up more often.

2) It wears down a defense. I don't have time to dig up the stats (help?) but many RBs who rush for 100+ yards get many of their yards later in the game - after the defense has been worn down throughout the game. Ironically this is often the point when the opposing team KNOWS the team that's leading will run the ball, but has difficulty stopping it anway.

 
sholditch said:
JimboJim said:
1-10-NO 20 (13:37) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 23 for 3 yards (21-B.Sanders, 28-M.Jackson).

1-10-IND 47 (9:31) 26-D.McAllister right end to IND 46 for 1 yard (94-R.Morris).

3-3-IND 40 (8:17) 26-D.McAllister right tackle to IND 35 for 5 yards (93-D.Freeney, 21-B.Sanders).

2-10-IND 35 (7:31) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 31 for 4 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

1-10-NO 48 (10:21) 26-D.McAllister left end to IND 46 for 6 yards (98-R.Mathis).

2-5-IND 18 (7:17) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 16 for 2 yards (94-R.Morris).

1-10-NO 33 (14:58) 26-D.McAllister left end to NO 39 for 6 yards (58-G.Brackett, 21-B.Sanders).

2-4-NO 39 (14:22) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 40 for 1 yard (54-F.Keiaho, 58-G.Brackett).

2-10-NO 15 (6:03) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to NO 27 for 12 yards (21-B.Sanders).

2-7-IND 48 (1:36) 26-D.McAllister right end to 50 for -2 yards (94-R.Morris).

... For those that say they should have pounded the ball with McAllister more, please tell me why? I see only three quality first or second down carries by him. Tough to keep pounding it when you are looking at 2nd & 8 or 3rd & 5.

These were the biggest mistakes I saw on offense from last night's game:

1st Quarter

3-6-IND 31 (6:51) 25-R.Bush up the middle to IND 34 for -3 yards (79-R.Brock).

- First drive of the game for the Saints. Go for the kill; how many times does a draw get 6+ yards on third down early in the game. Colts were probably looking for the short pass anyways.

3-3-NO 28 (:47) (Shotgun) 9-D.Brees pass short middle to 9-D.Brees pushed ob at NO 30 for 2 yards (41-A.Bethea). Brees' pass deflected by Brock (79).

- If you want to pound the ball, here is the time to do it.

2nd Quarter

3-5-NO 45 (3:05) 9-D.Brees pass short right to 25-R.Bush to NO 40 for -5 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

- This was the third failed attempt to get a first on a third with Bush... give it up already.

4th Quarter

4-1-NO 29 (13:02) 7-S.Weatherford punts 53 yards to IND 18, Center-47-K.Houser. 34-T.Rushing pushed ob at IND 34 for 16 yards (38-U.Young).

- Worst call of the game; down by 17 early in the fourth and need 1 yard. Let's see; punt to the Colts that are steamrolling your D... or fall forward and keep the drive alive.
Click to expand...
Does that help? Most coaches consider 4-5 yards on a carry pretty good. Point is you have to establish a run game and Deuce seemed more than up to the task, yet wasn't used and a run game wasn't established which killed everything. They never let him establish a rhythm.
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Okay; I'll give you the third and three for 5 yards, but 3 yards on first and ten (at any point in a game) doesn't get it done.McAllister did not run the ball well; neither did Bush. Cramming more of either player down the Colts throats wasn't going to work last night. Unfourtanately, neither was the passing game.

The main point I was trying to make was that the entire Saints offense was unproductive (no TDs); I don't think it was the play-calling, aside form a couple of bad calls. I don't think running it more would have helped. I don't think passing it more would have helped

The Saints were overmatched in every aspect offensively, and saying that things would have been different if they had just force-fed the ball to McAllister more seems pretty unrealistic from my prespective.

 
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sholditch said:
I have never seen such a rinky-dink assortment of trick plays and generally disjointed offensive philosophy as I saw in that game. Deuce ran well but he was hardly used. Bush was used inappropriately on a lot of plays ie runs up the middle. The o-line looked bad, but to me it looked like gadget plays were substituted for really establishing a run game, and because of that the offense never got in sync. I'll admit I was extra-pissed as a Deuce owner (can't imagine how the Bush owners feel) but I think the results speak for themselves. The no. 1 offense a year ago can't even score a TD.

fixed
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I am not going to comment on the playcalling, but I do think you're looking at their relative effectiveness (or lack thereof) through rose-colored glasses.Bush went 12/38/0 a YPC of 3.2 YPC. Deuce went 10/38/0 for a 3.8 YPC. Take away each of their longest runs and you're looking at 2.6 and 2.9 YPC each.

I wouldn't say Deuce exactly "ran well".

 
corpcow said:
I am not going to comment on the playcalling, but I do think you're looking at their relative effectiveness (or lack thereof) through rose-colored glasses.Bush went 12/38/0 a YPC of 3.2 YPC. Deuce went 10/38/0 for a 3.8 YPC. Take away each of their longest runs and you're looking at 2.6 and 2.9 YPC each.I wouldn't say Deuce exactly "ran well".
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How about we take away Bush and McAllister' shortest runs? What were their YPCs then?
 
sholditch said:
JimboJim said:
1-10-NO 20 (13:37) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 23 for 3 yards (21-B.Sanders, 28-M.Jackson).

1-10-IND 47 (9:31) 26-D.McAllister right end to IND 46 for 1 yard (94-R.Morris).

3-3-IND 40 (8:17) 26-D.McAllister right tackle to IND 35 for 5 yards (93-D.Freeney, 21-B.Sanders).

2-10-IND 35 (7:31) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 31 for 4 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

1-10-NO 48 (10:21) 26-D.McAllister left end to IND 46 for 6 yards (98-R.Mathis).

2-5-IND 18 (7:17) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 16 for 2 yards (94-R.Morris).

1-10-NO 33 (14:58) 26-D.McAllister left end to NO 39 for 6 yards (58-G.Brackett, 21-B.Sanders).

2-4-NO 39 (14:22) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 40 for 1 yard (54-F.Keiaho, 58-G.Brackett).

2-10-NO 15 (6:03) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to NO 27 for 12 yards (21-B.Sanders).

2-7-IND 48 (1:36) 26-D.McAllister right end to 50 for -2 yards (94-R.Morris).

... For those that say they should have pounded the ball with McAllister more, please tell me why? I see only three quality first or second down carries by him. Tough to keep pounding it when you are looking at 2nd & 8 or 3rd & 5.

These were the biggest mistakes I saw on offense from last night's game:

1st Quarter

3-6-IND 31 (6:51) 25-R.Bush up the middle to IND 34 for -3 yards (79-R.Brock).

- First drive of the game for the Saints. Go for the kill; how many times does a draw get 6+ yards on third down early in the game. Colts were probably looking for the short pass anyways.

3-3-NO 28 (:47) (Shotgun) 9-D.Brees pass short middle to 9-D.Brees pushed ob at NO 30 for 2 yards (41-A.Bethea). Brees' pass deflected by Brock (79).

- If you want to pound the ball, here is the time to do it.

2nd Quarter

3-5-NO 45 (3:05) 9-D.Brees pass short right to 25-R.Bush to NO 40 for -5 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

- This was the third failed attempt to get a first on a third with Bush... give it up already.

4th Quarter

4-1-NO 29 (13:02) 7-S.Weatherford punts 53 yards to IND 18, Center-47-K.Houser. 34-T.Rushing pushed ob at IND 34 for 16 yards (38-U.Young).

- Worst call of the game; down by 17 early in the fourth and need 1 yard. Let's see; punt to the Colts that are steamrolling your D... or fall forward and keep the drive alive.
Click to expand...
Does that help? Most coaches consider 4-5 yards on a carry pretty good. Point is you have to establish a run game and Deuce seemed more than up to the task, yet wasn't used and a run game wasn't established which killed everything. They never let him establish a rhythm.
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Spoken like a true Deuce owner.
 
DoubleG said:
sholditch said:
JimboJim said:
1-10-NO 20 (13:37) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 23 for 3 yards (21-B.Sanders, 28-M.Jackson).

1-10-IND 47 (9:31) 26-D.McAllister right end to IND 46 for 1 yard (94-R.Morris).

3-3-IND 40 (8:17) 26-D.McAllister right tackle to IND 35 for 5 yards (93-D.Freeney, 21-B.Sanders).

2-10-IND 35 (7:31) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 31 for 4 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

1-10-NO 48 (10:21) 26-D.McAllister left end to IND 46 for 6 yards (98-R.Mathis).

2-5-IND 18 (7:17) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 16 for 2 yards (94-R.Morris).

1-10-NO 33 (14:58) 26-D.McAllister left end to NO 39 for 6 yards (58-G.Brackett, 21-B.Sanders).

2-4-NO 39 (14:22) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 40 for 1 yard (54-F.Keiaho, 58-G.Brackett).

2-10-NO 15 (6:03) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to NO 27 for 12 yards (21-B.Sanders).

2-7-IND 48 (1:36) 26-D.McAllister right end to 50 for -2 yards (94-R.Morris).

... For those that say they should have pounded the ball with McAllister more, please tell me why? I see only three quality first or second down carries by him. Tough to keep pounding it when you are looking at 2nd & 8 or 3rd & 5.

These were the biggest mistakes I saw on offense from last night's game:

1st Quarter

3-6-IND 31 (6:51) 25-R.Bush up the middle to IND 34 for -3 yards (79-R.Brock).

- First drive of the game for the Saints. Go for the kill; how many times does a draw get 6+ yards on third down early in the game. Colts were probably looking for the short pass anyways.

3-3-NO 28 (:47) (Shotgun) 9-D.Brees pass short middle to 9-D.Brees pushed ob at NO 30 for 2 yards (41-A.Bethea). Brees' pass deflected by Brock (79).

- If you want to pound the ball, here is the time to do it.

2nd Quarter

3-5-NO 45 (3:05) 9-D.Brees pass short right to 25-R.Bush to NO 40 for -5 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

- This was the third failed attempt to get a first on a third with Bush... give it up already.

4th Quarter

4-1-NO 29 (13:02) 7-S.Weatherford punts 53 yards to IND 18, Center-47-K.Houser. 34-T.Rushing pushed ob at IND 34 for 16 yards (38-U.Young).

- Worst call of the game; down by 17 early in the fourth and need 1 yard. Let's see; punt to the Colts that are steamrolling your D... or fall forward and keep the drive alive.
Click to expand...
Does that help? Most coaches consider 4-5 yards on a carry pretty good. Point is you have to establish a run game and Deuce seemed more than up to the task, yet wasn't used and a run game wasn't established which killed everything. They never let him establish a rhythm.
Click to expand...
:confused: Even a gain of only a yard or two early in the game accomplishes two things:

1) It shows the defense (safeties) that you are committed to the run. They will have to play up more often.

2) It wears down a defense. I don't have time to dig up the stats (help?) but many RBs who rush for 100+ yards get many of their yards later in the game - after the defense has been worn down throughout the game. Ironically this is often the point when the opposing team KNOWS the team that's leading will run the ball, but has difficulty stopping it anway.
Click to expand...
This is silly; okay, so the Saints run the ball more and still average 3 yards a carry. How does this help?First Saints drive of the game... run, run, run... punt.

Coach: "Good job guys, we're establishing that running game."

First Colts drive of the game... run, run, pass... score.

Coach: "Man, we're up seven but we better watch out for that McAllister chipping us at 3 yards a carry."

Second Saints drive of the game... run, run, run... punt.

Coach: "Guys, we're building a foundation for the play-action pass later in the game."

Second Colts drive of the game... run, run, pass... score.

Coach: "Man, we're up fourteen but those New Orleans 3 yard carries are going to start adding up sooner or later."

Third Saints drive of the game... run, run, run... punt.

Coach: "Oh ****, I knew we were forgetting something... getting first downs, scoring, trying to win..."

 
Ghost Rider said:
corpcow said:
I am not going to comment on the playcalling, but I do think you're looking at their relative effectiveness (or lack thereof) through rose-colored glasses.Bush went 12/38/0 a YPC of 3.2 YPC. Deuce went 10/38/0 for a 3.8 YPC. Take away each of their longest runs and you're looking at 2.6 and 2.9 YPC each.I wouldn't say Deuce exactly "ran well".
Click to expand...
How about we take away Bush and McAllister' shortest runs? What were their YPCs then?
Click to expand...
Ok, fine, so at least Deuce didn't have 3 carries for a loss. My point is that neither were running particularly well, whether that was because of poor execution, Indy's tough defense, or poor playcalling.
 
They were beat by a better team. Doesn't matter what Payton's playcalling was going to be. Their best chance to win was to get ahead early and try and hold the ball and eat the clock. Once they got behind, they eliminated McAllister and the run and we all saw what happened. The had to be one-dimensional and the Colts didn't. There were some dumb calls but they were going to lose last night regardless of the playcalling.

 
Jason Wood said:
Payton is a really perplexing guy. I was (mistakenly) down on him as the Saints HC hire because of the vivid memories of him as the play-caller in NY and Dallas. How many offensive play callers get their jobs taken away in midseason not once, but twice! And yet, he not only proved me wrong last year but seemed perfectly suited to call a dynamic playbook and also manage the myriad duties of being a head coach.I think last night he looked a lot more like the guy who lost his play calling duties to Jim Fassel in New York than he did the guy who won Coach of the Year last season; but I'm also fairly confident that Saints fans can rest easy because Payton will study the film more than anyone and see that he fell into a very formulaic pattern last night.
Click to expand...
I think the LEAGUE studied film of the Saints , not the other way around ...this team overachieved last season, BIGTIME, and they 'snuck up' on people..that won't happen again in 2007, they're nothing more than a 7-9 team, imo....opposing teams will study the Colts game last night,and see thata. the Saints cannot stop the run, they could be the worst defense in the NFL this eason..b. the Saints can't stop `big play` offenses, and in particular, the deep pass..they've been exposed as a team with a good offense that has ignored the defensive side of the ball for far too long..Payton is so/so as an offensive coordinator..he wasn't exactly the best OC in the league while in NY or Dallas..and he's using smoke and mirrors type of end-around plays,instead of just pounding the ball straight ahead..I don't get it..
 
JimboJim said:
sholditch said:
JimboJim said:
1-10-NO 20 (13:37) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 23 for 3 yards (21-B.Sanders, 28-M.Jackson).

1-10-IND 47 (9:31) 26-D.McAllister right end to IND 46 for 1 yard (94-R.Morris).

3-3-IND 40 (8:17) 26-D.McAllister right tackle to IND 35 for 5 yards (93-D.Freeney, 21-B.Sanders).

2-10-IND 35 (7:31) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 31 for 4 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

1-10-NO 48 (10:21) 26-D.McAllister left end to IND 46 for 6 yards (98-R.Mathis).

2-5-IND 18 (7:17) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 16 for 2 yards (94-R.Morris).

1-10-NO 33 (14:58) 26-D.McAllister left end to NO 39 for 6 yards (58-G.Brackett, 21-B.Sanders).

2-4-NO 39 (14:22) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 40 for 1 yard (54-F.Keiaho, 58-G.Brackett).

2-10-NO 15 (6:03) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to NO 27 for 12 yards (21-B.Sanders).

2-7-IND 48 (1:36) 26-D.McAllister right end to 50 for -2 yards (94-R.Morris).

... For those that say they should have pounded the ball with McAllister more, please tell me why? I see only three quality first or second down carries by him. Tough to keep pounding it when you are looking at 2nd & 8 or 3rd & 5.

These were the biggest mistakes I saw on offense from last night's game:

1st Quarter

3-6-IND 31 (6:51) 25-R.Bush up the middle to IND 34 for -3 yards (79-R.Brock).

- First drive of the game for the Saints. Go for the kill; how many times does a draw get 6+ yards on third down early in the game. Colts were probably looking for the short pass anyways.

3-3-NO 28 (:47) (Shotgun) 9-D.Brees pass short middle to 9-D.Brees pushed ob at NO 30 for 2 yards (41-A.Bethea). Brees' pass deflected by Brock (79).

- If you want to pound the ball, here is the time to do it.

2nd Quarter

3-5-NO 45 (3:05) 9-D.Brees pass short right to 25-R.Bush to NO 40 for -5 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

- This was the third failed attempt to get a first on a third with Bush... give it up already.

4th Quarter

4-1-NO 29 (13:02) 7-S.Weatherford punts 53 yards to IND 18, Center-47-K.Houser. 34-T.Rushing pushed ob at IND 34 for 16 yards (38-U.Young).

- Worst call of the game; down by 17 early in the fourth and need 1 yard. Let's see; punt to the Colts that are steamrolling your D... or fall forward and keep the drive alive.
Click to expand...
Does that help? Most coaches consider 4-5 yards on a carry pretty good. Point is you have to establish a run game and Deuce seemed more than up to the task, yet wasn't used and a run game wasn't established which killed everything. They never let him establish a rhythm.
Click to expand...
Okay; I'll give you the third and three for 5 yards, but 3 yards on first and ten (at any point in a game) doesn't get it done.McAllister did not run the ball well; neither did Bush. Cramming more of either player down the Colts throats wasn't going to work last night. Unfourtanately, neither was the passing game.

The main point I was trying to make was that the entire Saints offense was unproductive (no TDs); I don't think it was the play-calling, aside form a couple of bad calls. I don't think running it more would have helped. I don't think passing it more would have helped

The Saints were overmatched in every aspect offensively, and saying that things would have been different if they had just force-fed the ball to McAllister more seems pretty unrealistic from my prespective.
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Look at the "up the middle" carries for Deuce--only 3 carries, but he got 18 yards. Maybe Bush ran up the middle a few times too, but the Saints were constantly attacking the perimeter--that's why the end arounds didn't work so well and the Safeties could hand back 20 yards--the Saints didn't threaten the middle at all during the game.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
JimboJim said:
sholditch said:
JimboJim said:
1-10-NO 20 (13:37) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 23 for 3 yards (21-B.Sanders, 28-M.Jackson).

1-10-IND 47 (9:31) 26-D.McAllister right end to IND 46 for 1 yard (94-R.Morris).

3-3-IND 40 (8:17) 26-D.McAllister right tackle to IND 35 for 5 yards (93-D.Freeney, 21-B.Sanders).

2-10-IND 35 (7:31) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 31 for 4 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

1-10-NO 48 (10:21) 26-D.McAllister left end to IND 46 for 6 yards (98-R.Mathis).

2-5-IND 18 (7:17) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 16 for 2 yards (94-R.Morris).

1-10-NO 33 (14:58) 26-D.McAllister left end to NO 39 for 6 yards (58-G.Brackett, 21-B.Sanders).

2-4-NO 39 (14:22) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 40 for 1 yard (54-F.Keiaho, 58-G.Brackett).

2-10-NO 15 (6:03) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to NO 27 for 12 yards (21-B.Sanders).

2-7-IND 48 (1:36) 26-D.McAllister right end to 50 for -2 yards (94-R.Morris).

... For those that say they should have pounded the ball with McAllister more, please tell me why? I see only three quality first or second down carries by him. Tough to keep pounding it when you are looking at 2nd & 8 or 3rd & 5.

These were the biggest mistakes I saw on offense from last night's game:

1st Quarter

3-6-IND 31 (6:51) 25-R.Bush up the middle to IND 34 for -3 yards (79-R.Brock).

- First drive of the game for the Saints. Go for the kill; how many times does a draw get 6+ yards on third down early in the game. Colts were probably looking for the short pass anyways.

3-3-NO 28 (:47) (Shotgun) 9-D.Brees pass short middle to 9-D.Brees pushed ob at NO 30 for 2 yards (41-A.Bethea). Brees' pass deflected by Brock (79).

- If you want to pound the ball, here is the time to do it.

2nd Quarter

3-5-NO 45 (3:05) 9-D.Brees pass short right to 25-R.Bush to NO 40 for -5 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

- This was the third failed attempt to get a first on a third with Bush... give it up already.

4th Quarter

4-1-NO 29 (13:02) 7-S.Weatherford punts 53 yards to IND 18, Center-47-K.Houser. 34-T.Rushing pushed ob at IND 34 for 16 yards (38-U.Young).

- Worst call of the game; down by 17 early in the fourth and need 1 yard. Let's see; punt to the Colts that are steamrolling your D... or fall forward and keep the drive alive.
Click to expand...
Does that help? Most coaches consider 4-5 yards on a carry pretty good. Point is you have to establish a run game and Deuce seemed more than up to the task, yet wasn't used and a run game wasn't established which killed everything. They never let him establish a rhythm.
Click to expand...
Okay; I'll give you the third and three for 5 yards, but 3 yards on first and ten (at any point in a game) doesn't get it done.McAllister did not run the ball well; neither did Bush. Cramming more of either player down the Colts throats wasn't going to work last night. Unfourtanately, neither was the passing game.

The main point I was trying to make was that the entire Saints offense was unproductive (no TDs); I don't think it was the play-calling, aside form a couple of bad calls. I don't think running it more would have helped. I don't think passing it more would have helped

The Saints were overmatched in every aspect offensively, and saying that things would have been different if they had just force-fed the ball to McAllister more seems pretty unrealistic from my prespective.
Click to expand...
Jim, you don't watch much football, do you. Or if you do, you don't really understand the game.60% of the plays you listed were clearly successful. Indy's defense isn't bad, so it was a case of the Saints taking what they were given. They should have taken further advantage.

More important was the fact that the running game could have opened the passing game up. Why you seem to believe that there was nothing NO could have done to succeed (i.e., "I don't think running it more would have helped. I don't think passing it more would have helped") is beyond me. Indy isn't the Steel Curtain of the 70s, or the Monsters of the Midway.

I do have to say that I did like the one call where they ran Stecker around end for about 15 yards. That's a Bush signature play and Indy wasn't expecting it with Bush out and Stecker in. The rest of the offensive calls, though, were confusing and showed no planning.

 
JimboJim said:
sholditch said:
JimboJim said:
1-10-NO 20 (13:37) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 23 for 3 yards (21-B.Sanders, 28-M.Jackson).

1-10-IND 47 (9:31) 26-D.McAllister right end to IND 46 for 1 yard (94-R.Morris).

3-3-IND 40 (8:17) 26-D.McAllister right tackle to IND 35 for 5 yards (93-D.Freeney, 21-B.Sanders).

2-10-IND 35 (7:31) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 31 for 4 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

1-10-NO 48 (10:21) 26-D.McAllister left end to IND 46 for 6 yards (98-R.Mathis).

2-5-IND 18 (7:17) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 16 for 2 yards (94-R.Morris).

1-10-NO 33 (14:58) 26-D.McAllister left end to NO 39 for 6 yards (58-G.Brackett, 21-B.Sanders).

2-4-NO 39 (14:22) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 40 for 1 yard (54-F.Keiaho, 58-G.Brackett).

2-10-NO 15 (6:03) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to NO 27 for 12 yards (21-B.Sanders).

2-7-IND 48 (1:36) 26-D.McAllister right end to 50 for -2 yards (94-R.Morris).

... For those that say they should have pounded the ball with McAllister more, please tell me why? I see only three quality first or second down carries by him. Tough to keep pounding it when you are looking at 2nd & 8 or 3rd & 5.

These were the biggest mistakes I saw on offense from last night's game:

1st Quarter

3-6-IND 31 (6:51) 25-R.Bush up the middle to IND 34 for -3 yards (79-R.Brock).

- First drive of the game for the Saints. Go for the kill; how many times does a draw get 6+ yards on third down early in the game. Colts were probably looking for the short pass anyways.

3-3-NO 28 (:47) (Shotgun) 9-D.Brees pass short middle to 9-D.Brees pushed ob at NO 30 for 2 yards (41-A.Bethea). Brees' pass deflected by Brock (79).

- If you want to pound the ball, here is the time to do it.

2nd Quarter

3-5-NO 45 (3:05) 9-D.Brees pass short right to 25-R.Bush to NO 40 for -5 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

- This was the third failed attempt to get a first on a third with Bush... give it up already.

4th Quarter

4-1-NO 29 (13:02) 7-S.Weatherford punts 53 yards to IND 18, Center-47-K.Houser. 34-T.Rushing pushed ob at IND 34 for 16 yards (38-U.Young).

- Worst call of the game; down by 17 early in the fourth and need 1 yard. Let's see; punt to the Colts that are steamrolling your D... or fall forward and keep the drive alive.
Click to expand...
Does that help? Most coaches consider 4-5 yards on a carry pretty good. Point is you have to establish a run game and Deuce seemed more than up to the task, yet wasn't used and a run game wasn't established which killed everything. They never let him establish a rhythm.
Click to expand...
Okay; I'll give you the third and three for 5 yards, but 3 yards on first and ten (at any point in a game) doesn't get it done.McAllister did not run the ball well; neither did Bush. Cramming more of either player down the Colts throats wasn't going to work last night. Unfourtanately, neither was the passing game.

The main point I was trying to make was that the entire Saints offense was unproductive (no TDs); I don't think it was the play-calling, aside form a couple of bad calls. I don't think running it more would have helped. I don't think passing it more would have helped

The Saints were overmatched in every aspect offensively, and saying that things would have been different if they had just force-fed the ball to McAllister more seems pretty unrealistic from my prespective.
Click to expand...
you sound like someone who hasn't read a single post in this thread
 
corpcow said:
sholditch said:
JimboJim said:
1-10-NO 20 (13:37) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 23 for 3 yards (21-B.Sanders, 28-M.Jackson).

1-10-IND 47 (9:31) 26-D.McAllister right end to IND 46 for 1 yard (94-R.Morris).

3-3-IND 40 (8:17) 26-D.McAllister right tackle to IND 35 for 5 yards (93-D.Freeney, 21-B.Sanders).

2-10-IND 35 (7:31) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 31 for 4 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

1-10-NO 48 (10:21) 26-D.McAllister left end to IND 46 for 6 yards (98-R.Mathis).

2-5-IND 18 (7:17) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 16 for 2 yards (94-R.Morris).

1-10-NO 33 (14:58) 26-D.McAllister left end to NO 39 for 6 yards (58-G.Brackett, 21-B.Sanders).

2-4-NO 39 (14:22) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 40 for 1 yard (54-F.Keiaho, 58-G.Brackett).

2-10-NO 15 (6:03) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to NO 27 for 12 yards (21-B.Sanders).

2-7-IND 48 (1:36) 26-D.McAllister right end to 50 for -2 yards (94-R.Morris).

... For those that say they should have pounded the ball with McAllister more, please tell me why? I see only three quality first or second down carries by him. Tough to keep pounding it when you are looking at 2nd & 8 or 3rd & 5.

These were the biggest mistakes I saw on offense from last night's game:

1st Quarter

3-6-IND 31 (6:51) 25-R.Bush up the middle to IND 34 for -3 yards (79-R.Brock).

- First drive of the game for the Saints. Go for the kill; how many times does a draw get 6+ yards on third down early in the game. Colts were probably looking for the short pass anyways.

3-3-NO 28 (:47) (Shotgun) 9-D.Brees pass short middle to 9-D.Brees pushed ob at NO 30 for 2 yards (41-A.Bethea). Brees' pass deflected by Brock (79).

- If you want to pound the ball, here is the time to do it.

2nd Quarter

3-5-NO 45 (3:05) 9-D.Brees pass short right to 25-R.Bush to NO 40 for -5 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

- This was the third failed attempt to get a first on a third with Bush... give it up already.

4th Quarter

4-1-NO 29 (13:02) 7-S.Weatherford punts 53 yards to IND 18, Center-47-K.Houser. 34-T.Rushing pushed ob at IND 34 for 16 yards (38-U.Young).

- Worst call of the game; down by 17 early in the fourth and need 1 yard. Let's see; punt to the Colts that are steamrolling your D... or fall forward and keep the drive alive.
Click to expand...
Does that help? Most coaches consider 4-5 yards on a carry pretty good. Point is you have to establish a run game and Deuce seemed more than up to the task, yet wasn't used and a run game wasn't established which killed everything. They never let him establish a rhythm.
Click to expand...
Spoken like a true Deuce owner.
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this is about real football. try and keep up. the ignorance in this thread is pretty astounding. do you guys just read boxscores or what?
 
kupcho1 said:
I do have to say that I did like the one call where they ran Stecker around end for about 15 yards. That's a Bush signature play and Indy wasn't expecting it with Bush out and Stecker in. The rest of the offensive calls, though, were confusing and showed no planning.
Click to expand...
Sounds like a preperation issue, not a playcalling issue.
 
KnowledgeReignsSupreme said:
kupcho1 said:
I do have to say that I did like the one call where they ran Stecker around end for about 15 yards. That's a Bush signature play and Indy wasn't expecting it with Bush out and Stecker in. The rest of the offensive calls, though, were confusing and showed no planning.
Click to expand...
Sounds like a preperation issue, not a playcalling issue.
Click to expand...
That is probably true. Once the Colts stopped what the Saints thought they would be able to do, Payton wasn't able to adjust his game plan and come up with any effective attack on offense.
 
Warpig said:
My fear (as a Brees owner) is if they can't score on a bad Indy defense with alot of inexperienced youth in the secondary, how are they gonna score against the tougher defenses like CAR, CHI, PHI, JAX, and San Fran?

Maybe Brees is the candidate for bust of the year.

Payton and his play calling did seem questionable.
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The Colts Defense looked pretty good last night. Give them some credit. With New Orleans Switching between Zone D and Man to Man, it seemed to confuse at least one New Orleans Corner. Even the commentators were calling it right, in man coverage your corner has to play the WR, the corner was looking into the Backfield and not following his guy. Colts knew his weakness and exploited it. I agree with the other posts - RUN THE BALL -. They should have put Bush on the bench and run a conventional offense. Bush looked slow last night, and if I can find a link I'll Post it because I think he(Bush)has an ankle problem, but I am not certain.

 
KnowledgeReignsSupreme said:
kupcho1 said:
I do have to say that I did like the one call where they ran Stecker around end for about 15 yards. That's a Bush signature play and Indy wasn't expecting it with Bush out and Stecker in. The rest of the offensive calls, though, were confusing and showed no planning.
Click to expand...
Sounds like a preperation issue, not a playcalling issue.
Click to expand...
Not going for it on 4th and inches when you're down to a surging Colts team and you have Deuce McAllister is definitely a playcalling issue. Or a balls issue, call it what you will. The Saints were poorly coached and their personnel were either underutilized (Deuce, Colston) or used inappropriately (Bush). They looked like an absolute mess, and they did look unprepared. They looked like a team that lacked a philosophy and were simply throwing things against the wall to see what stuck. And nothing did.
 
sholditch said:
KnowledgeReignsSupreme said:
kupcho1 said:
I do have to say that I did like the one call where they ran Stecker around end for about 15 yards. That's a Bush signature play and Indy wasn't expecting it with Bush out and Stecker in. The rest of the offensive calls, though, were confusing and showed no planning.
Click to expand...
Sounds like a preperation issue, not a playcalling issue.
Click to expand...
Not going for it on 4th and inches when you're down to a surging Colts team and you have Deuce McAllister is definitely a playcalling issue. Or a balls issue, call it what you will. The Saints were poorly coached and their personnel were either underutilized (Deuce, Colston) or used inappropriately (Bush). They looked like an absolute mess, and they did look unprepared. They looked like a team that lacked a philosophy and were simply throwing things against the wall to see what stuck. And nothing did.
Click to expand...
I think they were over-prepared...meaning over-coached. Payton had too much time and came up with too many gimmicks. Being unpredictable is good, but being predictably unpredictable isn't. If people know that you aren't going to present a threat running the ball, then they can easily stop the trickery. It's like the scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark where the guy is doing all the nifty moves with the sword and Indiana Jones pulls a gun out and shoots him.
 
guderian said:
Payton's fault is that he occasionally gets much too creative. He did that during the Bears game last year when Deuce was running well. Instead of using him more he abandoned the power running game when the field conditions were ideal for it. I saw the same thing last night. If the safeties are going to cheat deep, then he needs to pound it between the tackles until they respect the run. That's the only way that he will be able to free up the deep pass. If Indy can stop the running game then they deserve to win, but it's futile to stick with the deep passing plays when the Colts were clearly taking that away.
Click to expand...
:thumbup:I totally agree, the only thing Ive been down on Payton about since he came here is that he doesnt like to commit to the run sometimes when he should. And Chicago was a prime example :popcorn:
 
sholditch said:
KnowledgeReignsSupreme said:
kupcho1 said:
I do have to say that I did like the one call where they ran Stecker around end for about 15 yards. That's a Bush signature play and Indy wasn't expecting it with Bush out and Stecker in. The rest of the offensive calls, though, were confusing and showed no planning.
Click to expand...
Sounds like a preperation issue, not a playcalling issue.
Click to expand...
Not going for it on 4th and inches when you're down to a surging Colts team and you have Deuce McAllister is definitely a playcalling issue. Or a balls issue, call it what you will. The Saints were poorly coached and their personnel were either underutilized (Deuce, Colston) or used inappropriately (Bush). They looked like an absolute mess, and they did look unprepared. They looked like a team that lacked a philosophy and were simply throwing things against the wall to see what stuck. And nothing did.
Click to expand...
Strangely, most coaches chicken out here. You'll notice the good coaches like Bill Belichick go for it in these situations because they know the odds are in their favor and don't care about being questioned about it after the game should it not work.

 
sholditch said:
I have never seen such a rinky-dink assortment of trick plays and generally disjointed offensive philosophy as I saw in that game. Deuce ran well but he was hardly used. Bush was used inappropriately on a lot of plays ie runs up the middle. The o-line looked bad, but to me it looked like gadget plays were substituted for really establishing a run game, and because of that the offense never got in sync. I'll admit I was extra-pissed as a Deuce owner (can't imagine how the Bush owners feel) but I think the results speak for themselves. The no. 1 offense a year ago can't even score a TD.

fixed
Click to expand...
Same offense as last year. Nothing new. You can't seem to grasp that the guys in the blue shirts were also getting paid.
 
kupcho1 said:
JimboJim said:
sholditch said:
JimboJim said:
1-10-NO 20 (13:37) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 23 for 3 yards (21-B.Sanders, 28-M.Jackson).

1-10-IND 47 (9:31) 26-D.McAllister right end to IND 46 for 1 yard (94-R.Morris).

3-3-IND 40 (8:17) 26-D.McAllister right tackle to IND 35 for 5 yards (93-D.Freeney, 21-B.Sanders).

2-10-IND 35 (7:31) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 31 for 4 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

1-10-NO 48 (10:21) 26-D.McAllister left end to IND 46 for 6 yards (98-R.Mathis).

2-5-IND 18 (7:17) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 16 for 2 yards (94-R.Morris).

1-10-NO 33 (14:58) 26-D.McAllister left end to NO 39 for 6 yards (58-G.Brackett, 21-B.Sanders).

2-4-NO 39 (14:22) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 40 for 1 yard (54-F.Keiaho, 58-G.Brackett).

2-10-NO 15 (6:03) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to NO 27 for 12 yards (21-B.Sanders).

2-7-IND 48 (1:36) 26-D.McAllister right end to 50 for -2 yards (94-R.Morris).

... For those that say they should have pounded the ball with McAllister more, please tell me why? I see only three quality first or second down carries by him. Tough to keep pounding it when you are looking at 2nd & 8 or 3rd & 5.

These were the biggest mistakes I saw on offense from last night's game:

1st Quarter

3-6-IND 31 (6:51) 25-R.Bush up the middle to IND 34 for -3 yards (79-R.Brock).

- First drive of the game for the Saints. Go for the kill; how many times does a draw get 6+ yards on third down early in the game. Colts were probably looking for the short pass anyways.

3-3-NO 28 (:47) (Shotgun) 9-D.Brees pass short middle to 9-D.Brees pushed ob at NO 30 for 2 yards (41-A.Bethea). Brees' pass deflected by Brock (79).

- If you want to pound the ball, here is the time to do it.

2nd Quarter

3-5-NO 45 (3:05) 9-D.Brees pass short right to 25-R.Bush to NO 40 for -5 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

- This was the third failed attempt to get a first on a third with Bush... give it up already.

4th Quarter

4-1-NO 29 (13:02) 7-S.Weatherford punts 53 yards to IND 18, Center-47-K.Houser. 34-T.Rushing pushed ob at IND 34 for 16 yards (38-U.Young).

- Worst call of the game; down by 17 early in the fourth and need 1 yard. Let's see; punt to the Colts that are steamrolling your D... or fall forward and keep the drive alive.
Click to expand...
Does that help? Most coaches consider 4-5 yards on a carry pretty good. Point is you have to establish a run game and Deuce seemed more than up to the task, yet wasn't used and a run game wasn't established which killed everything. They never let him establish a rhythm.
Click to expand...
Okay; I'll give you the third and three for 5 yards, but 3 yards on first and ten (at any point in a game) doesn't get it done.McAllister did not run the ball well; neither did Bush. Cramming more of either player down the Colts throats wasn't going to work last night. Unfourtanately, neither was the passing game.

The main point I was trying to make was that the entire Saints offense was unproductive (no TDs); I don't think it was the play-calling, aside form a couple of bad calls. I don't think running it more would have helped. I don't think passing it more would have helped

The Saints were overmatched in every aspect offensively, and saying that things would have been different if they had just force-fed the ball to McAllister more seems pretty unrealistic from my prespective.
Click to expand...
Jim, you don't watch much football, do you. Or if you do, you don't really understand the game.60% of the plays you listed were clearly successful. Indy's defense isn't bad, so it was a case of the Saints taking what they were given. They should have taken further advantage.

More important was the fact that the running game could have opened the passing game up. Why you seem to believe that there was nothing NO could have done to succeed (i.e., "I don't think running it more would have helped. I don't think passing it more would have helped") is beyond me. Indy isn't the Steel Curtain of the 70s, or the Monsters of the Midway.

I do have to say that I did like the one call where they ran Stecker around end for about 15 yards. That's a Bush signature play and Indy wasn't expecting it with Bush out and Stecker in. The rest of the offensive calls, though, were confusing and showed no planning.
Click to expand...
"... you don't watch much football, do you?" :rolleyes: I'm not backing Payton's choice of play-calling; I think the two failed failed short passes to Bush, and the Bush up-the-gut run, all leading to fourth downs could have been called better.

However, I think it's crazy that some (including the OP) are in here saying that if only the Saints had run the ball more up the gut with Duece, we would have been looking at a totally different game.

Bush had a few good runs and Duece had a few good runs, but out of their 25 or so rushing attempts, hardly a single one contirbuted to an offensive point.

Beyond that, their passing game, both short and long, was atrocious; they commited a number of offensive penalties, fumbled the ball once and threw a pick. The defense is a whole other topic...

Their first few drives, the Saints actually did run the ball okay, and what did that do for the passing game; nothing. Prior to the score getting out of hand (34-10), their run/pass ration was acutally 22/25. I doubt 30/17 would have made that big of a difference.

Bottom line is they made no big plays (on offense), failed to convert on third downs and couldn't stop the Colts offense.

 
KnowledgeReignsSupreme said:
sholditch said:
KnowledgeReignsSupreme said:
kupcho1 said:
I do have to say that I did like the one call where they ran Stecker around end for about 15 yards. That's a Bush signature play and Indy wasn't expecting it with Bush out and Stecker in. The rest of the offensive calls, though, were confusing and showed no planning.
Click to expand...
Sounds like a preperation issue, not a playcalling issue.
Click to expand...
Not going for it on 4th and inches when you're down to a surging Colts team and you have Deuce McAllister is definitely a playcalling issue. Or a balls issue, call it what you will. The Saints were poorly coached and their personnel were either underutilized (Deuce, Colston) or used inappropriately (Bush). They looked like an absolute mess, and they did look unprepared. They looked like a team that lacked a philosophy and were simply throwing things against the wall to see what stuck. And nothing did.
Click to expand...
Strangely, most coaches chicken out here. You'll notice the good coaches like Bill Belichick go for it in these situations because they know the odds are in their favor and don't care about being questioned about it after the game should it not work.
Click to expand...
Lovie doesn't :rolleyes: ETA: Props to gerudian for one of the better analogies on this board:

It's like the scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark where the guy is doing all the nifty moves with the sword and Indiana Jones pulls a gun out and shoots him.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
JimboJim said:
kupcho1 said:
JimboJim said:
sholditch said:
JimboJim said:
1-10-NO 20 (13:37) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 23 for 3 yards (21-B.Sanders, 28-M.Jackson).

1-10-IND 47 (9:31) 26-D.McAllister right end to IND 46 for 1 yard (94-R.Morris).

3-3-IND 40 (8:17) 26-D.McAllister right tackle to IND 35 for 5 yards (93-D.Freeney, 21-B.Sanders).

2-10-IND 35 (7:31) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 31 for 4 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

1-10-NO 48 (10:21) 26-D.McAllister left end to IND 46 for 6 yards (98-R.Mathis).

2-5-IND 18 (7:17) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 16 for 2 yards (94-R.Morris).

1-10-NO 33 (14:58) 26-D.McAllister left end to NO 39 for 6 yards (58-G.Brackett, 21-B.Sanders).

2-4-NO 39 (14:22) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 40 for 1 yard (54-F.Keiaho, 58-G.Brackett).

2-10-NO 15 (6:03) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to NO 27 for 12 yards (21-B.Sanders).

2-7-IND 48 (1:36) 26-D.McAllister right end to 50 for -2 yards (94-R.Morris).

... For those that say they should have pounded the ball with McAllister more, please tell me why? I see only three quality first or second down carries by him. Tough to keep pounding it when you are looking at 2nd & 8 or 3rd & 5.

These were the biggest mistakes I saw on offense from last night's game:

1st Quarter

3-6-IND 31 (6:51) 25-R.Bush up the middle to IND 34 for -3 yards (79-R.Brock).

- First drive of the game for the Saints. Go for the kill; how many times does a draw get 6+ yards on third down early in the game. Colts were probably looking for the short pass anyways.

3-3-NO 28 (:47) (Shotgun) 9-D.Brees pass short middle to 9-D.Brees pushed ob at NO 30 for 2 yards (41-A.Bethea). Brees' pass deflected by Brock (79).

- If you want to pound the ball, here is the time to do it.

2nd Quarter

3-5-NO 45 (3:05) 9-D.Brees pass short right to 25-R.Bush to NO 40 for -5 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

- This was the third failed attempt to get a first on a third with Bush... give it up already.

4th Quarter

4-1-NO 29 (13:02) 7-S.Weatherford punts 53 yards to IND 18, Center-47-K.Houser. 34-T.Rushing pushed ob at IND 34 for 16 yards (38-U.Young).

- Worst call of the game; down by 17 early in the fourth and need 1 yard. Let's see; punt to the Colts that are steamrolling your D... or fall forward and keep the drive alive.
Click to expand...
Does that help? Most coaches consider 4-5 yards on a carry pretty good. Point is you have to establish a run game and Deuce seemed more than up to the task, yet wasn't used and a run game wasn't established which killed everything. They never let him establish a rhythm.
Click to expand...
Okay; I'll give you the third and three for 5 yards, but 3 yards on first and ten (at any point in a game) doesn't get it done.McAllister did not run the ball well; neither did Bush. Cramming more of either player down the Colts throats wasn't going to work last night. Unfourtanately, neither was the passing game.

The main point I was trying to make was that the entire Saints offense was unproductive (no TDs); I don't think it was the play-calling, aside form a couple of bad calls. I don't think running it more would have helped. I don't think passing it more would have helped

The Saints were overmatched in every aspect offensively, and saying that things would have been different if they had just force-fed the ball to McAllister more seems pretty unrealistic from my prespective.
Click to expand...
Jim, you don't watch much football, do you. Or if you do, you don't really understand the game.60% of the plays you listed were clearly successful. Indy's defense isn't bad, so it was a case of the Saints taking what they were given. They should have taken further advantage.

More important was the fact that the running game could have opened the passing game up. Why you seem to believe that there was nothing NO could have done to succeed (i.e., "I don't think running it more would have helped. I don't think passing it more would have helped") is beyond me. Indy isn't the Steel Curtain of the 70s, or the Monsters of the Midway.

I do have to say that I did like the one call where they ran Stecker around end for about 15 yards. That's a Bush signature play and Indy wasn't expecting it with Bush out and Stecker in. The rest of the offensive calls, though, were confusing and showed no planning.
Click to expand...
"... you don't watch much football, do you?" :confused: I'm not backing Payton's choice of play-calling; I think the two failed failed short passes to Bush, and the Bush up-the-gut run, all leading to fourth downs could have been called better.

However, I think it's crazy that some (including the OP) are in here saying that if only the Saints had run the ball more up the gut with Duece, we would have been looking at a totally different game.

Bush had a few good runs and Duece had a few good runs, but out of their 25 or so rushing attempts, hardly a single one contirbuted to an offensive point.

Beyond that, their passing game, both short and long, was atrocious; they commited a number of offensive penalties, fumbled the ball once and threw a pick. The defense is a whole other topic...

Their first few drives, the Saints actually did run the ball okay, and what did that do for the passing game; nothing. Prior to the score getting out of hand (34-10), their run/pass ration was acutally 22/25. I doubt 30/17 would have made that big of a difference.

Bottom line is they made no big plays (on offense), failed to convert on third downs and couldn't stop the Colts offense.
Click to expand...
You still don't get it. It's not about numbers or ratios, it's about the flow of the game and one of the unmutable laws of football: you use the run to set up the pass. In this game, since the DTs for the Colts were depleted, this would have been an especially prudent strategy. Even if the first few series don't necessarily result in points, if you establish a running game that can move the chains, the defense is forced to play closer to the line of scrimmage, the safeties come up in run coverage, and you can then get one-on-one coverage for your receivers for the deep pass. It's pretty elemental to the game on any level. Why do you think the longest pass Brees threw was for 23 yards and the second-longest was for 13?
 
I thought some of the play calling was suspect but the Saints got killed in the trenches on both sides of the ball last night. Execution is more to blame.

 
sholditch said:
JimboJim said:
kupcho1 said:
JimboJim said:
sholditch said:
JimboJim said:
1-10-NO 20 (13:37) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 23 for 3 yards (21-B.Sanders, 28-M.Jackson).

1-10-IND 47 (9:31) 26-D.McAllister right end to IND 46 for 1 yard (94-R.Morris).

3-3-IND 40 (8:17) 26-D.McAllister right tackle to IND 35 for 5 yards (93-D.Freeney, 21-B.Sanders).

2-10-IND 35 (7:31) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 31 for 4 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

1-10-NO 48 (10:21) 26-D.McAllister left end to IND 46 for 6 yards (98-R.Mathis).

2-5-IND 18 (7:17) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 16 for 2 yards (94-R.Morris).

1-10-NO 33 (14:58) 26-D.McAllister left end to NO 39 for 6 yards (58-G.Brackett, 21-B.Sanders).

2-4-NO 39 (14:22) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 40 for 1 yard (54-F.Keiaho, 58-G.Brackett).

2-10-NO 15 (6:03) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to NO 27 for 12 yards (21-B.Sanders).

2-7-IND 48 (1:36) 26-D.McAllister right end to 50 for -2 yards (94-R.Morris).

... For those that say they should have pounded the ball with McAllister more, please tell me why? I see only three quality first or second down carries by him. Tough to keep pounding it when you are looking at 2nd & 8 or 3rd & 5.

These were the biggest mistakes I saw on offense from last night's game:

1st Quarter

3-6-IND 31 (6:51) 25-R.Bush up the middle to IND 34 for -3 yards (79-R.Brock).

- First drive of the game for the Saints. Go for the kill; how many times does a draw get 6+ yards on third down early in the game. Colts were probably looking for the short pass anyways.

3-3-NO 28 (:47) (Shotgun) 9-D.Brees pass short middle to 9-D.Brees pushed ob at NO 30 for 2 yards (41-A.Bethea). Brees' pass deflected by Brock (79).

- If you want to pound the ball, here is the time to do it.

2nd Quarter

3-5-NO 45 (3:05) 9-D.Brees pass short right to 25-R.Bush to NO 40 for -5 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

- This was the third failed attempt to get a first on a third with Bush... give it up already.

4th Quarter

4-1-NO 29 (13:02) 7-S.Weatherford punts 53 yards to IND 18, Center-47-K.Houser. 34-T.Rushing pushed ob at IND 34 for 16 yards (38-U.Young).

- Worst call of the game; down by 17 early in the fourth and need 1 yard. Let's see; punt to the Colts that are steamrolling your D... or fall forward and keep the drive alive.
Click to expand...
Does that help? Most coaches consider 4-5 yards on a carry pretty good. Point is you have to establish a run game and Deuce seemed more than up to the task, yet wasn't used and a run game wasn't established which killed everything. They never let him establish a rhythm.
Click to expand...
Okay; I'll give you the third and three for 5 yards, but 3 yards on first and ten (at any point in a game) doesn't get it done.McAllister did not run the ball well; neither did Bush. Cramming more of either player down the Colts throats wasn't going to work last night. Unfourtanately, neither was the passing game.

The main point I was trying to make was that the entire Saints offense was unproductive (no TDs); I don't think it was the play-calling, aside form a couple of bad calls. I don't think running it more would have helped. I don't think passing it more would have helped

The Saints were overmatched in every aspect offensively, and saying that things would have been different if they had just force-fed the ball to McAllister more seems pretty unrealistic from my prespective.
Click to expand...
Jim, you don't watch much football, do you. Or if you do, you don't really understand the game.60% of the plays you listed were clearly successful. Indy's defense isn't bad, so it was a case of the Saints taking what they were given. They should have taken further advantage.

More important was the fact that the running game could have opened the passing game up. Why you seem to believe that there was nothing NO could have done to succeed (i.e., "I don't think running it more would have helped. I don't think passing it more would have helped") is beyond me. Indy isn't the Steel Curtain of the 70s, or the Monsters of the Midway.

I do have to say that I did like the one call where they ran Stecker around end for about 15 yards. That's a Bush signature play and Indy wasn't expecting it with Bush out and Stecker in. The rest of the offensive calls, though, were confusing and showed no planning.
Click to expand...
"... you don't watch much football, do you?" :angry: I'm not backing Payton's choice of play-calling; I think the two failed failed short passes to Bush, and the Bush up-the-gut run, all leading to fourth downs could have been called better.

However, I think it's crazy that some (including the OP) are in here saying that if only the Saints had run the ball more up the gut with Duece, we would have been looking at a totally different game.

Bush had a few good runs and Duece had a few good runs, but out of their 25 or so rushing attempts, hardly a single one contirbuted to an offensive point.

Beyond that, their passing game, both short and long, was atrocious; they commited a number of offensive penalties, fumbled the ball once and threw a pick. The defense is a whole other topic...

Their first few drives, the Saints actually did run the ball okay, and what did that do for the passing game; nothing. Prior to the score getting out of hand (34-10), their run/pass ration was acutally 22/25. I doubt 30/17 would have made that big of a difference.

Bottom line is they made no big plays (on offense), failed to convert on third downs and couldn't stop the Colts offense.
Click to expand...
You still don't get it. It's not about numbers or ratios, it's about the flow of the game and one of the unmutable laws of football: you use the run to set up the pass. In this game, since the DTs for the Colts were depleted, this would have been an especially prudent strategy. Even if the first few series don't necessarily result in points, if you establish a running game that can move the chains, the defense is forced to play closer to the line of scrimmage, the safeties come up in run coverage, and you can then get one-on-one coverage for your receivers for the deep pass. It's pretty elemental to the game on any level. Why do you think the longest pass Brees threw was for 23 yards and the second-longest was for 13?
Click to expand...
I get it, what's not to get? You think the Saints game plan last night was lousy and things would have been different if they had established the running game better.I disagree. :lmao:

Other than a few bad calls, I though Payton had a decent game plan... get the ball to Bush outside, sprinkle in some inside runs with both backs and get it to the WRs outside. Had it worked, it would have been genius.

In didn't work; what makes you think a run-heavy (Deuce inside) attack would have; because the one they chose failed?

Payton knows his team, and I gaurantee you he knows the Colts weaknesses a lot better than you or I.

Second guess all you want, but I think trying to pound the ball inside early to set up the passing game is not a luxury many teams have against the Colts. Especially when you have a defense that can't stop their offense. Just my opinion.

What were they supposed to do; spend a quarter or two trying to establish the running game while the Colts are playing catch and running up a decent lead?

Statistically, I was trying to prove to you that even when they did run the ball (both backs), they weren't very effective at picking up first downs or opening up the passing game, inside or outside. What, do you keep doing that just because the unwritten football laws say so? All you have thrown out here is some Monday morning quaterbacking and footballisms like "you have to setup the pass with the run..." while questioning whether or not "I even know how real football works".

Sorry if my opinion differs from yours... :(

 
I thought the Saints D looked terrific in the first half. Those guys spent all summer together and fed off each other beautifully. I bet it winds up that they handled the Colts, for a half, better than most teams will for the rest of the year. The offense....did they play together all summer? You couldn't tell.

Missed blocks, wrong routes, poor throws, not catching the ball before ya turn upfield etc that's all supposed to be drilled into them all summer long. Makes me wonder about the camp Payton ran. Along the lines of Jason's good post above, did Payton spend too much time having them learn all these creative plays and not drill them enough?

I'll chalk it up to just an "off" night but if they don't "get it in gear" til week 4 or somesuch, I'd figure it's a camp thing.

 
JimboJim said:
sholditch said:
JimboJim said:
kupcho1 said:
JimboJim said:
sholditch said:
JimboJim said:
1-10-NO 20 (13:37) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 23 for 3 yards (21-B.Sanders, 28-M.Jackson).

1-10-IND 47 (9:31) 26-D.McAllister right end to IND 46 for 1 yard (94-R.Morris).

3-3-IND 40 (8:17) 26-D.McAllister right tackle to IND 35 for 5 yards (93-D.Freeney, 21-B.Sanders).

2-10-IND 35 (7:31) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 31 for 4 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

1-10-NO 48 (10:21) 26-D.McAllister left end to IND 46 for 6 yards (98-R.Mathis).

2-5-IND 18 (7:17) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to IND 16 for 2 yards (94-R.Morris).

1-10-NO 33 (14:58) 26-D.McAllister left end to NO 39 for 6 yards (58-G.Brackett, 21-B.Sanders).

2-4-NO 39 (14:22) 26-D.McAllister left tackle to NO 40 for 1 yard (54-F.Keiaho, 58-G.Brackett).

2-10-NO 15 (6:03) 26-D.McAllister up the middle to NO 27 for 12 yards (21-B.Sanders).

2-7-IND 48 (1:36) 26-D.McAllister right end to 50 for -2 yards (94-R.Morris).

... For those that say they should have pounded the ball with McAllister more, please tell me why? I see only three quality first or second down carries by him. Tough to keep pounding it when you are looking at 2nd & 8 or 3rd & 5.

These were the biggest mistakes I saw on offense from last night's game:

1st Quarter

3-6-IND 31 (6:51) 25-R.Bush up the middle to IND 34 for -3 yards (79-R.Brock).

- First drive of the game for the Saints. Go for the kill; how many times does a draw get 6+ yards on third down early in the game. Colts were probably looking for the short pass anyways.

3-3-NO 28 (:47) (Shotgun) 9-D.Brees pass short middle to 9-D.Brees pushed ob at NO 30 for 2 yards (41-A.Bethea). Brees' pass deflected by Brock (79).

- If you want to pound the ball, here is the time to do it.

2nd Quarter

3-5-NO 45 (3:05) 9-D.Brees pass short right to 25-R.Bush to NO 40 for -5 yards (54-F.Keiaho).

- This was the third failed attempt to get a first on a third with Bush... give it up already.

4th Quarter

4-1-NO 29 (13:02) 7-S.Weatherford punts 53 yards to IND 18, Center-47-K.Houser. 34-T.Rushing pushed ob at IND 34 for 16 yards (38-U.Young).

- Worst call of the game; down by 17 early in the fourth and need 1 yard. Let's see; punt to the Colts that are steamrolling your D... or fall forward and keep the drive alive.
Click to expand...
Does that help? Most coaches consider 4-5 yards on a carry pretty good. Point is you have to establish a run game and Deuce seemed more than up to the task, yet wasn't used and a run game wasn't established which killed everything. They never let him establish a rhythm.
Click to expand...
Okay; I'll give you the third and three for 5 yards, but 3 yards on first and ten (at any point in a game) doesn't get it done.McAllister did not run the ball well; neither did Bush. Cramming more of either player down the Colts throats wasn't going to work last night. Unfourtanately, neither was the passing game.

The main point I was trying to make was that the entire Saints offense was unproductive (no TDs); I don't think it was the play-calling, aside form a couple of bad calls. I don't think running it more would have helped. I don't think passing it more would have helped

The Saints were overmatched in every aspect offensively, and saying that things would have been different if they had just force-fed the ball to McAllister more seems pretty unrealistic from my prespective.
Click to expand...
Jim, you don't watch much football, do you. Or if you do, you don't really understand the game.60% of the plays you listed were clearly successful. Indy's defense isn't bad, so it was a case of the Saints taking what they were given. They should have taken further advantage.

More important was the fact that the running game could have opened the passing game up. Why you seem to believe that there was nothing NO could have done to succeed (i.e., "I don't think running it more would have helped. I don't think passing it more would have helped") is beyond me. Indy isn't the Steel Curtain of the 70s, or the Monsters of the Midway.

I do have to say that I did like the one call where they ran Stecker around end for about 15 yards. That's a Bush signature play and Indy wasn't expecting it with Bush out and Stecker in. The rest of the offensive calls, though, were confusing and showed no planning.
Click to expand...
"... you don't watch much football, do you?" :thumbup: I'm not backing Payton's choice of play-calling; I think the two failed failed short passes to Bush, and the Bush up-the-gut run, all leading to fourth downs could have been called better.

However, I think it's crazy that some (including the OP) are in here saying that if only the Saints had run the ball more up the gut with Duece, we would have been looking at a totally different game.

Bush had a few good runs and Duece had a few good runs, but out of their 25 or so rushing attempts, hardly a single one contirbuted to an offensive point.

Beyond that, their passing game, both short and long, was atrocious; they commited a number of offensive penalties, fumbled the ball once and threw a pick. The defense is a whole other topic...

Their first few drives, the Saints actually did run the ball okay, and what did that do for the passing game; nothing. Prior to the score getting out of hand (34-10), their run/pass ration was acutally 22/25. I doubt 30/17 would have made that big of a difference.

Bottom line is they made no big plays (on offense), failed to convert on third downs and couldn't stop the Colts offense.
Click to expand...
You still don't get it. It's not about numbers or ratios, it's about the flow of the game and one of the unmutable laws of football: you use the run to set up the pass. In this game, since the DTs for the Colts were depleted, this would have been an especially prudent strategy. Even if the first few series don't necessarily result in points, if you establish a running game that can move the chains, the defense is forced to play closer to the line of scrimmage, the safeties come up in run coverage, and you can then get one-on-one coverage for your receivers for the deep pass. It's pretty elemental to the game on any level. Why do you think the longest pass Brees threw was for 23 yards and the second-longest was for 13?
Click to expand...
I get it, what's not to get? You think the Saints game plan last night was lousy and things would have been different if they had established the running game better.I disagree. :lmao:

Other than a few bad calls, I though Payton had a decent game plan... get the ball to Bush outside, sprinkle in some inside runs with both backs and get it to the WRs outside. Had it worked, it would have been genius.

In didn't work; what makes you think a run-heavy (Deuce inside) attack would have; because the one they chose failed?

Payton knows his team, and I gaurantee you he knows the Colts weaknesses a lot better than you or I.

Second guess all you want, but I think trying to pound the ball inside early to set up the passing game is not a luxury many teams have against the Colts. Especially when you have a defense that can't stop their offense. Just my opinion.

What were they supposed to do; spend a quarter or two trying to establish the running game while the Colts are playing catch and running up a decent lead?

Statistically, I was trying to prove to you that even when they did run the ball (both backs), they weren't very effective at picking up first downs or opening up the passing game, inside or outside. What, do you keep doing that just because the unwritten football laws say so? All you have thrown out here is some Monday morning quaterbacking and footballisms like "you have to setup the pass with the run..." while questioning whether or not "I even know how real football works".

Sorry if my opinion differs from yours... :bye:
Click to expand...
I agree with sholdich on this one. I think that the limited success that NO had was due to Deuce. Addai seemed to get stronger as the game progressed and Deuce is the same kind of back. I don't think that this would have changed the outcome but a smashmouth strategy would have been more successful.
 
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