Is Reggie Bush an everydown, 25 carry/game RB? Options

[ConstruxBoy]

Simple question: In your opinion, with the injury to Deuce, will Reggie Bush show himself to be a good everydown, 25 carry per game RB? Assume that Yes means he'll average 3.75 yards a carry or greater and that he will average 25 carries over the rest of the season. No means that he fails those numbers.

[V1LL]

I put yes but I based it on touches.

[Sylira21]

25 carries a game?

If carried through the end of the year, that would be 380 carries for 2007. I don't think so.

Now if you're thinking touches...

[thebestupsman]

He is now!!!! I think he will do good. I hope so, I'm a proud owner.

[Doctor Detroit]

I put yes but I based it on touches.

[Sack-Religious]

25 carries, not so sure. I don't think it would be an effective use of Bush to pound him into the LOS 25+ times a game. 25 Touches, I think he can do. 17 carries and 8 catches + or - in either category could be possible.

He's shared time in the backfield by virtue of having other solid options through college and the pros. There's really no history to say that can't do it, so I'm pretty sure we'll find out over the rest of the season.

[tppt]

hes a gimmick, a fast larry centers.

nothing more

[KellysHeroes]

If I paid someone 60 mil.... he better be.

[greenline]

No but it doesn't change the fact he should still be incredibly productive.

[H.K.]

Warrick Dunn has been pretty successful over the years as the primary ball carrier. Bush will be fine.

[On The Rocks]

I sure hope so!

:bushowner:

[Urinal Mint]

If they can use him like Brian Westbrook, I think he will do well.

They still can't run the ball up the middle, though.

[twitch]

Until I see Bush running straight ahead, north and south, between the tackles, Im not going to give Bush any love. We'll find out what he's made of at this point with Deuce out. It seems like all he ever does is run away from trouble. Im not sure he's gonna be real good at getting the tough yards, but he's an amazing guy, so I really hope he figures it out. Bush with 25 carries and game AND catches? Seems like an injury waiting to happen, but I hope he stays healthy and blows up on the NFL.

[bicycle_seat_sni...]

Aaron Stecker

[FreeBaGeL]

Does ANYONE average 25 carries/game?

That's 400 carries. I count ONE RB that has done that for ONE season in recent memory.

[analog_hiss]

Until I see Bush running straight ahead, north and south, between the tackles, Im not going to give Bush any love. We'll find out what he's made of at this point with Deuce out. It seems like all he ever does is run away from trouble. Im not sure he's gonna be real good at getting the tough yards, but he's an amazing guy, so I really hope he figures it out. Bush with 25 carries and game AND catches? Seems like an injury waiting to happen, but I hope he stays healthy and blows up on the NFL.

Several times last night Bush would take a stutter step or stab, and wound up losing 2-3 yards. If he kept running forward those losses would be gains...small gains but positive yardage.

Maybe it's trying too hard or being too cute or the fact that the Saints OLine just stinks.

I would also like to see Bush succeed, but we might have to wait for another season to see that happen. The Saints just stink.

[twitch]

Bush is a little like a great boxer that's not used to getting hit very often. Someone like Roy Jones Jr. When Jones was in his prime, it seemed like he never got hit. he's dance and bob and move and duck and do everything to avoid getting hit. It worked for him. For Bush, its a different sport altogether, but I really think at this point, that is more or less his mindset. He doesnt really want to take hits, and I cant say that I blame him. But its absolutely a blue-collar, physical, warrior mentality. Bush has to develop that in order to be a complete back. If he doesnt do that quick, New Orleans is in BIG trouble.

[ConstruxBoy]

I almost made it touches but anyone can get 15 dumpoffs a game, so I called it carries to specifically see if people thought he could be the workhorse RB like most teams need (Eagles and Westbrook notwithstanding). I'm not saying he can't be good if they use him like the Eagles use Westbrook, but I'm wondering if people think he can be that run between the tackles 20-25 times a game RB.

[Demian]

Westbrook runs with way more power than Reggie Bush ever has.

[Doug B]

I think he could do it if, as others have done above, we count 25 touches.

As far as being effective, I think Bush needs to be part of an elite offense with a dominant line to be effective. He'd be an easy fantasy RB1 on the Colts or Steelers. Probably the Patriots and Cowboys, too.

On the 2002-2005 Chiefs, he'd have been a top-3 fantasy player even in non-PPR leagues.

But on the 2007 Saints? Eh ... he's going to struggle mightily.

This post has been edited by Doug B: Sep 25 2007, 07:45 AM

[BIGGjohnny]

Bush is a 25 a carry type of back, but that does not necessarily mean that he will produce by getting the rock now that Deuce is out. Saints have a lack of a deep threat. Devrey Henderson is nowhere to be seen. Colston is a possession WR. This KILLS Bush's value because EVERYONE will be keying on him now.

His value was better with a healthy Deuce pounding the rock and solid WR play last year. The 2007 Saints look like a completely different team.

With the Deuce injury:
Drop everyone's value in the New Orleans offense. Start to think about sitting Brees if you have a nice backup.

EXCEPT a slight upgrade for Bush only in PPR leagues. I think he will catch 100 balls this year and get a couple more TD now that Deuce is out. His yardage totals are not going to be solid though.

[dgreen]

Does ANYONE average 25 carries/game?

That's 400 carries. I count ONE RB that has done that for ONE season in recent memory.

[Lefty27]

He will get a few more touches, say in the 18-20 range (he is averaging 15 touches/game through game 3), Aaron Stecker will see an increase in playing time.

Good thing they have their bye week coming up - Sean Payton is going to be a very busy man and needs to formulate a game plan for adjusting the identity of the NO offense moving forward. You are going to see 3 WR and 4 WR sets as the norm.

[nyftbl_giants]

hes a gimmick, a fast larry centers.

nothing more

[the hairy scotsm...]

Warrick Dunn has been pretty successful over the years as the primary ball carrier. Bush will be fine.

Oh...ok.

You're saying RB has Dunn's power and rushing skills then?

This post has been edited by the hairy scotsman: Sep 25 2007, 08:13 AM

[ImTheScientist]

You do know that 25 carries a game is 400 carries for a full season

This post has been edited by The Scientist: Sep 25 2007, 08:19 AM

[TheFanatic]

Aaron Stecker

This is the name that keeps popping into my head. Will Stecker take over Deuce's role in the offense? Will It be more of a split tandem between Bush and Stecker? Will Bush get 75-80% of the touches and Stecker the rest? Will they put the entire load on Bush with Stecker getting a series or two to keep Bush fresh?

I think this deserves it's own poll

[CalBear]

Averaging 25 carries a game is not realistic for any back. That's 400 carries for a season, which has only been done a few times in league history. Bush should certainly handle a full workload, which would probably average 20 carries (320 for a season).

Assuming New Orleans stops sucking. The entire team only had 16 rushing attempts yesterday.

[KnowledgeReignsS...]

No way he sees 25 rushes or even 20 rushes a game if they keep losing big like this.

[ConstruxBoy]

Averaging 25 carries a game is not realistic for any back. That's 400 carries for a season, which has only been done a few times in league history. Bush should certainly handle a full workload, which would probably average 20 carries (320 for a season).

Assuming New Orleans stops sucking. The entire team only had 16 rushing attempts yesterday.

Let's make it 20 then. Can Reggie Bush run between the tackles 20 times a game?

[pelland]

Aaron Stecker

This is the name that keeps popping into my head. Will Stecker take over Deuce's role in the offense? Will It be more of a split tandem between Bush and Stecker? Will Bush get 75-80% of the touches and Stecker the rest? Will they put the entire load on Bush with Stecker getting a series or two to keep Bush fresh?

I think this deserves it's own poll

Pierre Thomas

[Shrek]

I put yes but I based it on touches.

This is the right answer.

[Chaos Commish]

Averaging 25 carries a game is not realistic for any back. That's 400 carries for a season, which has only been done a few times in league history. Bush should certainly handle a full workload, which would probably average 20 carries (320 for a season).

Assuming New Orleans stops sucking. The entire team only had 16 rushing attempts yesterday.

Let's make it 20 then. Can Reggie Bush run between the tackles 20 times a game?

The answer to this question is: "Yes Reggie can carry it 20 times between the tackles." It isn't a big deal. He carried 18 times in the first half against UCLA and had over 200 yards and 3 TDs, 14 of those carries were between the tackles and he was just warming up. Running that many times is about stamina and endurance, not durability. Durability is an isse of injury and Reggie has no history of that save a minor ankle here or there. Mewelde Moore was a workhorse at Tulane and could be one in Minnesota if asked to do so. More carries for any back means more chances to get hurt... any back. Norwood was a workhorse in the SEC and could be one in Atlanta if asked to be. Addai was never a workhorse at LSU, but it is no big deal for him to be one now. The whole notion of a workhorse back is way overthought. Most backs can be every down backs if their coaches ask them to. It is that simple. There are a few who seem limited, but just a few. There are a few who seem injury prone, but that's impossible to predict, and Bush has no history or injury.

That's the answer to "can he"?

The answer to your first question even downgraded to 20 is: "Maybe, but probably not." That offense has a very sophisticated tooling that uses Reggie wide in order to spread the defense and open up the middle for a ground attack. Reggie is not fully cross trained at Deuce's position and they are two completely different positions. I doubt Payton changes his entire offensive scheme over this injury. Reggie will be a little more involved but Stecker will take Deuce's role and the game plans will be similar. Payton needs to shake things up, but I have a feeling that doesn't involve lining up Reggie in Deuce's spot and pounding him up the middle... though Reggie could do that. He'd look bad sometimes dancing around, and he'd find a seam here and there and tear it up.

[CalBear]

Averaging 25 carries a game is not realistic for any back. That's 400 carries for a season, which has only been done a few times in league history. Bush should certainly handle a full workload, which would probably average 20 carries (320 for a season).

Assuming New Orleans stops sucking. The entire team only had 16 rushing attempts yesterday.

Let's make it 20 then. Can Reggie Bush run between the tackles 20 times a game?

I answered "yes" the first time.

I don't think there's any real reason to believe that Reggie Bush is more likely to be injured running between the tackles than, say, Deuce McAllister, and I think he can be effective in that role. It may take him some time to settle down to the idea of pushing forward for 2 yards when that's necessary instead of trying to score on every play.

[jamil]

honestly, i think he'd be a better RB than he is now if they would use him as an actual RB

[Demian]

The answer to this question is: "Yes Reggie can carry it 20 times between the tackles." It isn't a big deal. He carried 18 times in the first half against UCLA and had over 200 yards and 3 TDs, 14 of those carries were between the tackles and he was just warming up. Running that many times is about stamina and endurance, not durability. Durability is an isse of injury and Reggie has no history of that save a minor ankle here or there. Mewelde Moore was a workhorse at Tulane and could be one in Minnesota if asked to do so. More carries for any back means more chances to get hurt... any back. Norwood was a workhorse in the SEC and could be one in Atlanta if asked to be. Addai was never a workhorse at LSU, but it is no big deal for him to be one now. The whole notion of a workhorse back is way overthought. Most backs can be every down backs if their coaches ask them to. It is that simple. There are a few who seem limited, but just a few. There are a few who seem injury prone, but that's impossible to predict, and Bush has no history or injury.

That's the answer to "can he"?

The answer to your first question even downgraded to 20 is: "Maybe, but probably not." That offense has a very sophisticated tooling that uses Reggie wide in order to spread the defense and open up the middle for a ground attack. Reggie is not fully cross trained at Deuce's position and they are two completely different positions. I doubt Payton changes his entire offensive scheme over this injury. Reggie will be a little more involved but Stecker will take Deuce's role and the game plans will be similar. Payton needs to shake things up, but I have a feeling that doesn't involve lining up Reggie in Deuce's spot and pounding him up the middle... though Reggie could do that. He'd look bad sometimes dancing around, and he'd find a seam here and there and tear it up.

Let me know when UCLA joins the NFC South.

[KnowledgeReignsS...]

Averaging 25 carries a game is not realistic for any back. That's 400 carries for a season, which has only been done a few times in league history. Bush should certainly handle a full workload, which would probably average 20 carries (320 for a season).

Assuming New Orleans stops sucking. The entire team only had 16 rushing attempts yesterday.

Let's make it 20 then. Can Reggie Bush run between the tackles 20 times a game?

Not sure he'll get the opportunity. 20 touches I can see.

[KnowledgeReignsS...]

To be honest, I'm not sure I could justify giving him 20 or even 15 carries a game with his sub 3.0 YPC right now.

[MarcO]

To be honest, I'm not sure I could justify giving him 20 or even 15 carries a game with his sub 3.0 YPC right now.

same for Tomlinson?

[dgreen]

To be honest, I'm not sure I could justify giving him 20 or even 15 carries a game with his sub 3.0 YPC right now.

Would you just not run much or would you give Stecker a good number of carries?

[The Kansas Comet]

The answer to this question is: "Yes Reggie can carry it 20 times between the tackles." It isn't a big deal. He carried 18 times in the first half against UCLA and had over 200 yards and 3 TDs, 14 of those carries were between the tackles and he was just warming up. Running that many times is about stamina and endurance, not durability. Durability is an isse of injury and Reggie has no history of that save a minor ankle here or there. Mewelde Moore was a workhorse at Tulane and could be one in Minnesota if asked to do so. More carries for any back means more chances to get hurt... any back. Norwood was a workhorse in the SEC and could be one in Atlanta if asked to be. Addai was never a workhorse at LSU, but it is no big deal for him to be one now. The whole notion of a workhorse back is way overthought. Most backs can be every down backs if their coaches ask them to. It is that simple. There are a few who seem limited, but just a few. There are a few who seem injury prone, but that's impossible to predict, and Bush has no history or injury.

That's the answer to "can he"?

The answer to your first question even downgraded to 20 is: "Maybe, but probably not." That offense has a very sophisticated tooling that uses Reggie wide in order to spread the defense and open up the middle for a ground attack. Reggie is not fully cross trained at Deuce's position and they are two completely different positions. I doubt Payton changes his entire offensive scheme over this injury. Reggie will be a little more involved but Stecker will take Deuce's role and the game plans will be similar. Payton needs to shake things up, but I have a feeling that doesn't involve lining up Reggie in Deuce's spot and pounding him up the middle... though Reggie could do that. He'd look bad sometimes dancing around, and he'd find a seam here and there and tear it up.

Let me know when UCLA joins the NFC South.

Exactly. This isn't college and he isn't playing on an offense that is vastly superior to its opponents, as he was at USC. I think the Saints would be foolish to try and turn him into a 20 carry/game back - his skills (and his propensity to head east/west) aren't suited for trying to pound between the tackles. He should get a few more carries, but I don't think the Saints offense will improve with him slamming into the teeth of the defense repeatedly.

[greenroom]

Guess we will finally see if Houston made the right choice on passing on Bush. I personally think he is not a full time rb. But he would make a great WR.

[Sweat Hog]

Bush suxors.
I got him in an auction league and now wish I'd gone for a ham sandwhich with fries instead.
He dances around and gets nailed for a loss and in the few times he's been in the open field, he shows nothing special at all.
OVERHYPED and underdelivering.

[saintsfan]

Reggie can do whatever, but there isn't going to be a whole lot of running going on with the Saints line blocking the way they are blocking.

For proof, look at Deuce's stats so far this season. He hasn't been any better than Bush in YPC this season. That's because the line is stinking it up.

IMO, running Reggie between the tackles 20-25 times per game is not the best use of his talents, anyway. Philly doesn't do that with Westbrook. The Rams didn't do that with Faulk.

Ideally, I believe Reggie should get about 20-25 TOUCHES per game. You HAVE to get him in space in the passing game because that's where he is most dangerous. Like I said, though, if we don't start blocking somebody, all of this is moot. LT is the best back in football, but the Chargers aren't blocking anybody right now and he is struggling. I'm not sure why Reggie is held to a higher standard than LT. If you don't think Reggie can run, go back and watch the Giants game last year.

[j3r3m3y]

For a running back he is a great wide receiver.

[Chaos Commish]

The answer to this question is: "Yes Reggie can carry it 20 times between the tackles." It isn't a big deal. He carried 18 times in the first half against UCLA and had over 200 yards and 3 TDs, 14 of those carries were between the tackles and he was just warming up. Running that many times is about stamina and endurance, not durability. Durability is an isse of injury and Reggie has no history of that save a minor ankle here or there. Mewelde Moore was a workhorse at Tulane and could be one in Minnesota if asked to do so. More carries for any back means more chances to get hurt... any back. Norwood was a workhorse in the SEC and could be one in Atlanta if asked to be. Addai was never a workhorse at LSU, but it is no big deal for him to be one now. The whole notion of a workhorse back is way overthought. Most backs can be every down backs if their coaches ask them to. It is that simple. There are a few who seem limited, but just a few. There are a few who seem injury prone, but that's impossible to predict, and Bush has no history or injury.

That's the answer to "can he"?

The answer to your first question even downgraded to 20 is: "Maybe, but probably not." That offense has a very sophisticated tooling that uses Reggie wide in order to spread the defense and open up the middle for a ground attack. Reggie is not fully cross trained at Deuce's position and they are two completely different positions. I doubt Payton changes his entire offensive scheme over this injury. Reggie will be a little more involved but Stecker will take Deuce's role and the game plans will be similar. Payton needs to shake things up, but I have a feeling that doesn't involve lining up Reggie in Deuce's spot and pounding him up the middle... though Reggie could do that. He'd look bad sometimes dancing around, and he'd find a seam here and there and tear it up.

Let me know when UCLA joins the NFC South.

Exactly. This isn't college and he isn't playing on an offense that is vastly superior to its opponents, as he was at USC. I think the Saints would be foolish to try and turn him into a 20 carry/game back - his skills (and his propensity to head east/west) aren't suited for trying to pound between the tackles. He should get a few more carries, but I don't think the Saints offense will improve with him slamming into the teeth of the defense repeatedly.

No you guys are "exactly" wrong and not comprehending. By your standards college must be tougher than the NFL because Addai couldn't carry the load at LSU. College being too tough for Addai and too easy for Bush has nothing to do with it. Either back can carry the load if given the chance. Way too much is made of this topic. It is a coach's decision and nothing more. Amost every back in the league could carry the load if given the opportunity. How successful they would be is another question.

I never said Bush would be as productive with 20+ carries in the NFL as he was in college, so your replies don't really make sense or address the topic. Productivity is totally different than whether or not he could handle the carries. Anyway Construx asked two questions: Will he get that many carries, and can he handle that many. You two seem to be answering the question, "should he get that many?" I don't have an answer to that one. I guess the Saints should give him a try and find out if he "should". But I know he "can", and because of the nature of the installed offense, I doubt he "will". Capice? I doubt it.

[duaneok66]

How does Bush even get 38% of the vote???

[Chaos Commish]

For a running back he is a great wide receiver.

He's also a heck of a back for a wide receiver.

I do think he's dancing way too much and far too indecisive at the LoS. It's almost ugly to watch him making the same mistakes this year that he made last year and then be interviewed about correcting the mistake. EBF praises Bush for being able to change direction at full speed like very few backs (and it is true in space), but Bush has been hitting the brakes, looking both ways before he crosses the street and ducking the oncoming very violent traffic for one plus seasons. He needs to make a decision and explode into the hole. If he gets whacked, well, he better learn how to avoid heavy hits. It is getting pretty old watching him duck and dance when he should be flying through a crease. I thought he would be much better than he has been, and I hate to say this, but the indecisive running sometimes looks like he's a little scared to kick in the jets and hit the stinkin' hole. It's true he ran through much bigger holes in college, but many backs did and learned to hit the small creases in the NFL. He needs to do this and I think a few 20 carry games would lather him up and get him rolling like I believe he can run.

[ConstruxBoy]

Averaging 25 carries a game is not realistic for any back. That's 400 carries for a season, which has only been done a few times in league history. Bush should certainly handle a full workload, which would probably average 20 carries (320 for a season).

Assuming New Orleans stops sucking. The entire team only had 16 rushing attempts yesterday.

Let's make it 20 then. Can Reggie Bush run between the tackles 20 times a game?

The answer to this question is: "Yes Reggie can carry it 20 times between the tackles." It isn't a big deal. He carried 18 times in the first half against UCLA and had over 200 yards and 3 TDs, 14 of those carries were between the tackles and he was just warming up. Running that many times is about stamina and endurance, not durability. Durability is an isse of injury and Reggie has no history of that save a minor ankle here or there. Mewelde Moore was a workhorse at Tulane and could be one in Minnesota if asked to do so. More carries for any back means more chances to get hurt... any back. Norwood was a workhorse in the SEC and could be one in Atlanta if asked to be. Addai was never a workhorse at LSU, but it is no big deal for him to be one now. The whole notion of a workhorse back is way overthought. Most backs can be every down backs if their coaches ask them to. It is that simple. There are a few who seem limited, but just a few. There are a few who seem injury prone, but that's impossible to predict, and Bush has no history or injury.

That's the answer to "can he"?

The answer to your first question even downgraded to 20 is: "Maybe, but probably not." That offense has a very sophisticated tooling that uses Reggie wide in order to spread the defense and open up the middle for a ground attack. Reggie is not fully cross trained at Deuce's position and they are two completely different positions. I doubt Payton changes his entire offensive scheme over this injury. Reggie will be a little more involved but Stecker will take Deuce's role and the game plans will be similar. Payton needs to shake things up, but I have a feeling that doesn't involve lining up Reggie in Deuce's spot and pounding him up the middle... though Reggie could do that. He'd look bad sometimes dancing around, and he'd find a seam here and there and tear it up.

Good post although my doubts are more about Reggie's effectiveness as an every down RB as opposed to worrying about injury. I think that the reason the Saints use Bush the way they do is that they can't use him like Deuce because he would be ineffective. I think that this ineffectiveness will rear it's ugly head now that McAllister is out if the Saints try to use him like they used McAllister.

[ConstruxBoy]

For a running back he is a great wide receiver.

He's also a heck of a back for a wide receiver.

I do think he's dancing way too much and far too indecisive at the LoS. It's almost ugly to watch him making the same mistakes this year that he made last year and then be interviewed about correcting the mistake. EBF praises Bush for being able to change direction at full speed like very few backs (and it is true in space), but Bush has been hitting the brakes, looking both ways before he crosses the street and ducking the oncoming very violent traffic for one plus seasons. He needs to make a decision and explode into the hole. If he gets whacked, well, he better learn how to avoid heavy hits. It is getting pretty old watching him duck and dance when he should be flying through a crease. I thought he would be much better than he has been, and I hate to say this, but the indecisive running sometimes looks like he's a little scared to kick in the jets and hit the stinkin' hole. It's true he ran through much bigger holes in college, but many backs did and learned to hit the small creases in the NFL. He needs to do this and I think a few 20 carry games would lather him up and get him rolling like I believe he can run.

Great points. I'm of the opinion that he won't be successful running like that in the NFL and we see it now. But he certainly can be fantastic if he can fix the issues you mention.