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Money Buys Red Sox a Pennant. Will It Buy Them Love? (1 Viewer)

posty

Footballguy
http://sports.iwon.com/news/10242007/v1729.html

That sure didn't take long.

Remember back to 2004, when Boston was brimming with tales about long-suffering players and fans whose sacrifices and devotion to a baseball team practically shamed the rest of us into taking up their cause? That is so-o-o over. Three seasons and a few hundred million dollars later, there's precious few feel-good stories to be wrung from these Red Sox.

There's wide-eyed local hero Manny Delcarmen, who could come bounding out of the Boston bullpen one of the next two nights with a World Series game on the line, but whose previous entries to Fenway came only because players from those cuddly Red Sox teams of years past donated blocks of tickets to inner-city kids.

"Sometimes I sit and I'm looking, I'm playing with Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz, Curt Schilling, all these guys," Delcarmen told the Boston Globe. "Five years ago, I was playing PlayStation with them."

Then there's the local furniture chain that promised full refunds to any customer who bought merchandise between March 7 and April 16, provided the Red Sox win it all.

"Imagine yourself sitting on that sofa, watching that game," Eliot Tatelman, president and CEO of Jordan's Furniture said, "and knowing it's free if they win."

It would have been an even better story, of course, if Tatelman hadn't also told the Globe that he bought an insurance policy to cover any potential losses. But that's life in Red Sox nation these days.

Coy has given way to confident, hope to haughtiness and tight budgets to almost unlimited funds. What used to require a leap of faith can now be accomplished simply by shuffling your feet. Even former New York mayor and Yankee Stadium fixture Rudy Giuliani had no problem climbing on the bandwagon.

"I'm rooting for the Red Sox," the Republican presidential contender said the other day to applause in a Boston restaurant.

He called his loyalty to Boston temporary - "I'm an American League fan," he said - but Giuliani is simply hoping his newfound affection is rewarded in kind by voters up the road in New Hampshire, thick with Red Sox fans and site of the nation's first primary. So at least he's got an excuse. The same can't be said for all those who climbed aboard just ahead of him.

When Boston beat the Cardinals in the 2004 World Series, it was less about reversing a curse than finding an owner willing to spend enough to knock the pinstripes off the Yankees. John Henry got a taste of what he was in for shortly after buying the team in 2002 and getting his nose bloodied in a bidding war with New York for the services of Cuban defector Jose Contreras. Afterward, team president Larry Lucchino complained, "The evil empire extends its tentacles even into Latin America."

But earlier this year Boston sunk its tentacles into Japan deeper than those same Yankees could, laying out $51 million just for the right to negotiate with pitcher Daisuke Matsuzaka, then doubled down to lock him up for six years. The Colorado Rockies, the last team standing between Boston and all that free furniture, spent $54 million for their entire payroll.

While Red Sox fans are quick to point out that that the Yankees' opening-day tab of $195 million dwarfed their own by almost the same amount, the third-place team in the financial arms race, the Mets, began the season another $30 million back. The Yankees' willingness to spend and spend and spend on free agents, and eat their expensive mistakes if need be, is what aggravated the rest of baseball forever. But at least the franchise and their fans reveled in that role.

Red Sox fans, meanwhile, continue to think themselves as underdogs instead of overlords, even though their ballclub has become nearly as bloated and just as dependent on mercenaries. They gave J.D. Drew a $14 million-a-year deal, for example, they're on their fourth shortstop since the 2004 title, and only eight players off that championship 25-man roster remain.

None of that has kept them from becoming the darlings of baseball's TV networks or selling out enemy ballparks with their own fans, something that only the Yankees and the Cubs, who have the lovable losers tag now all to themselves, manage to do.

 
:goodposting:

I love these threads.

Yep... Sox have a high payroll now. Price of trying to compete with a $200MM juggernaut as well as trying to satiate a rabid fanbase.

I do dread the axle snapping weight of the next round of bandwagon jumpers if the Sox win again but C'est la vie....

 
I told you people.. but you didn't listen to old Darth. "oh the idiots are so great". "Cowboy Up". "Manny being Manny", "We're dirtballs". "There's the loveable Caveman patroling Center". "Arryo's album is great", " THE BLOODY SOCK OH MY GOD THE BLOODY SOCK". All you fool fans of other teams were ecstatic that the RedSox embarassed the Evil Empire in 2004. You lapped it up like nickle beer happy hour. But... the worm has turned. Little did you realize you got rid of one monster and replaced with another one. Maybe next time you'll root for the natural order of thing.

 
:goodposting:

I love these threads.

Yep... Sox have a high payroll now. Price of trying to compete with a $200MM juggernaut as well as trying to satiate a rabid fanbase.

I do dread the axle snapping weight of the next round of bandwagon jumpers if the Sox win again but C'est la vie....
I don't think that dog hunts anymore with the rest of the league. You have become a shadowy reflection of me my young Padewan.
 
I told you people.. but you didn't listen to old Darth. "oh the idiots are so great". "Cowboy Up". "Manny being Manny", "We're dirtballs". "There's the loveable Caveman patroling Center". "Arryo's album is great", " THE BLOODY SOCK OH MY GOD THE BLOODY SOCK". All you fool fans of other teams were ecstatic that the RedSox embarassed the Evil Empire in 2004. You lapped it up like nickle beer happy hour. But... the worm has turned. Little did you realize you got rid of one monster and replaced with another one. Maybe next time you'll root for the natural order of thing.
:thumbup: Yes, it's much like when they bring in those giant lizards to get rid of all the snakes. You're still stuck with all those big freaking lizards.
 
I told you people.. but you didn't listen to old Darth. "oh the idiots are so great". "Cowboy Up". "Manny being Manny", "We're dirtballs". "There's the loveable Caveman patroling Center". "Arryo's album is great", " THE BLOODY SOCK OH MY GOD THE BLOODY SOCK". All you fool fans of other teams were ecstatic that the RedSox embarassed the Evil Empire in 2004. You lapped it up like nickle beer happy hour. But... the worm has turned. Little did you realize you got rid of one monster and replaced with another one. Maybe next time you'll root for the natural order of thing.
:thumbup: Yes, it's much like when they bring in those giant lizards to get rid of all the snakes. You're still stuck with all those big freaking lizards.
Right and then you get a baboon who likes to eat the lizards... but then what do you do with the baboon?
 
I told you people.. but you didn't listen to old Darth. "oh the idiots are so great". "Cowboy Up". "Manny being Manny", "We're dirtballs". "There's the loveable Caveman patroling Center". "Arryo's album is great", " THE BLOODY SOCK OH MY GOD THE BLOODY SOCK". All you fool fans of other teams were ecstatic that the RedSox embarassed the Evil Empire in 2004. You lapped it up like nickle beer happy hour. But... the worm has turned. Little did you realize you got rid of one monster and replaced with another one. Maybe next time you'll root for the natural order of thing.
:mellow: Yes, it's much like when they bring in those giant lizards to get rid of all the snakes. You're still stuck with all those big freaking lizards.
Right and then you get a baboon who likes to eat the lizards... but then what do you do with the baboon?
Get more snakes?
 
I told you people.. but you didn't listen to old Darth. "oh the idiots are so great". "Cowboy Up". "Manny being Manny", "We're dirtballs". "There's the loveable Caveman patroling Center". "Arryo's album is great", " THE BLOODY SOCK OH MY GOD THE BLOODY SOCK". All you fool fans of other teams were ecstatic that the RedSox embarassed the Evil Empire in 2004. You lapped it up like nickle beer happy hour. But... the worm has turned. Little did you realize you got rid of one monster and replaced with another one. Maybe next time you'll root for the natural order of thing.
:mellow: Yes, it's much like when they bring in those giant lizards to get rid of all the snakes. You're still stuck with all those big freaking lizards.
Right and then you get a baboon who likes to eat the lizards... but then what do you do with the baboon?
Get more snakes?
No. You wait until winter and the baboons freeze.
 
I told you people.. but you didn't listen to old Darth. "oh the idiots are so great". "Cowboy Up". "Manny being Manny", "We're dirtballs". "There's the loveable Caveman patroling Center". "Arryo's album is great", " THE BLOODY SOCK OH MY GOD THE BLOODY SOCK". All you fool fans of other teams were ecstatic that the RedSox embarassed the Evil Empire in 2004. You lapped it up like nickle beer happy hour. But... the worm has turned. Little did you realize you got rid of one monster and replaced with another one. Maybe next time you'll root for the natural order of thing.
:lmao: Yes, it's much like when they bring in those giant lizards to get rid of all the snakes. You're still stuck with all those big freaking lizards.
Right and then you get a baboon who likes to eat the lizards... but then what do you do with the baboon?
Get more snakes?
No. You wait until winter and the baboons freeze.
I hear it's going to be cold in Boston tonite.
 
I told you people.. but you didn't listen to old Darth. "oh the idiots are so great". "Cowboy Up". "Manny being Manny", "We're dirtballs". "There's the loveable Caveman patroling Center". "Arryo's album is great", " THE BLOODY SOCK OH MY GOD THE BLOODY SOCK". All you fool fans of other teams were ecstatic that the RedSox embarassed the Evil Empire in 2004. You lapped it up like nickle beer happy hour. But... the worm has turned. Little did you realize you got rid of one monster and replaced with another one. Maybe next time you'll root for the natural order of thing.
:lmao: Yes, it's much like when they bring in those giant lizards to get rid of all the snakes. You're still stuck with all those big freaking lizards.
Right and then you get a baboon who likes to eat the lizards... but then what do you do with the baboon?
Get more snakes?
No. You wait until winter and the baboons freeze.
I hear it's going to be cold in Boston tonite.
Good, frozen snakes, lizards, and baboons.
 
"only eight players off that championship 25-man roster remain"

I wonder what is typical, i.e. average number of players retained within a 3 year timeframe

 
Last time I looked, MLB teams can spend whatever they want on their salaries. If your teams chose not to, don't show shame on the Sox for feilding a competive, expensive team. there is no cap in MLB, deal with it.

Go Sox!!!

 
I find these articles hilarious. It makes it seem like Sox fans long for the days where we were seen as the plucky underdogs who were destined to rip our hearts out every time. Like Boston preferred to be the poetic losers and media darlings over being a championship winner.

Fact is, most long suffering Red Sox fans didn't give two craps HOW we did it. We just wanted to win. Period. There were tons of Sox fans who wanted Dolan to win the bidding war for the franchise because he had the deep pockets necessary to spend with the Yankees.

Now that the Red Sox are "Yankee Lite" in terms of payroll and the rest of the league hates our team, do you really think that Sox fans care one bit?

 
I find these articles hilarious. It makes it seem like Sox fans long for the days where we were seen as the plucky underdogs who were destined to rip our hearts out every time. Like Boston preferred to be the poetic losers and media darlings over being a championship winner. Fact is, most long suffering Red Sox fans didn't give two craps HOW we did it. We just wanted to win. Period. There were tons of Sox fans who wanted Dolan to win the bidding war for the franchise because he had the deep pockets necessary to spend with the Yankees.Now that the Red Sox are "Yankee Lite" in terms of payroll and the rest of the league hates our team, do you really think that Sox fans care one bit?
:D I have a yankees fan who has now emailed me the "yankees lite" article 3 times expecting to get a rise out of me... all 3 times I've simply responded with: "and?" As long as the ownership has a solid farm system in place producing talent like Ellsubury, Pedrioa, Youk, Bucholz, Papelbon. Lester, Sanchez, Ramirez, etc.... then I could care less if they make a splash or two in the FA market each year and are in the top 4-5 in payroll. As long as we're not #1 and we're working toward a solid young base while remaining compeitive year in and year out... who cares :shrug:
 
[icon] said:
Workhorse said:
I find these articles hilarious. It makes it seem like Sox fans long for the days where we were seen as the plucky underdogs who were destined to rip our hearts out every time. Like Boston preferred to be the poetic losers and media darlings over being a championship winner.

Fact is, most long suffering Red Sox fans didn't give two craps HOW we did it. We just wanted to win. Period. There were tons of Sox fans who wanted Dolan to win the bidding war for the franchise because he had the deep pockets necessary to spend with the Yankees.

Now that the Red Sox are "Yankee Lite" in terms of payroll and the rest of the league hates our team, do you really think that Sox fans care one bit?
:no: I have a yankees fan who has now emailed me the "yankees lite" article 3 times expecting to get a rise out of me... all 3 times I've simply responded with: "and?"

As long as the ownership has a solid farm system in place producing talent like Ellsubury, Pedrioa, Youk, Bucholz, Papelbon. Lester, Sanchez, Ramirez, etc.... then I could care less if they make a splash or two in the FA market each year and are in the top 4-5 in payroll.

As long as we're not #1 and we're working toward a solid young base while remaining compeitive year in and year out... who cares :lmao:
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: God, you guys are sounding more and more like the Yankee fans every year(THATS THE REAL REASON EVERYONE ELSE DISLIKES THE SOX NOW)

 
(THATS THE REAL REASON EVERYONE ELSE DISLIKES THE SOX NOW)
AND THIS AFFECTS MY LIFE HOW? :unsure: So you hate me. BFD. My beer will still be cold when I get home and the bed will still be warm at the end of the night. :lmao:
When did I say this affects you?I don't hate you..........hell, I envy you.I'm just pointing out why everyone is no longer in love with your Sox.Yankee and Sox are both in the same boat.........EVERYONE HATE's THEM(outside of NY/BOS)
 
http://sports.iwon.com/news/10242007/v1729.html

That sure didn't take long.

Remember back to 2004, when Boston was brimming with tales about long-suffering players and fans whose sacrifices and devotion to a baseball team practically shamed the rest of us into taking up their cause? That is so-o-o over. Three seasons and a few hundred million dollars later, there's precious few feel-good stories to be wrung from these Red Sox.

There's wide-eyed local hero Manny Delcarmen, who could come bounding out of the Boston bullpen one of the next two nights with a World Series game on the line, but whose previous entries to Fenway came only because players from those cuddly Red Sox teams of years past donated blocks of tickets to inner-city kids.

"Sometimes I sit and I'm looking, I'm playing with Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz, Curt Schilling, all these guys," Delcarmen told the Boston Globe. "Five years ago, I was playing PlayStation with them."

Then there's the local furniture chain that promised full refunds to any customer who bought merchandise between March 7 and April 16, provided the Red Sox win it all.

"Imagine yourself sitting on that sofa, watching that game," Eliot Tatelman, president and CEO of Jordan's Furniture said, "and knowing it's free if they win."

It would have been an even better story, of course, if Tatelman hadn't also told the Globe that he bought an insurance policy to cover any potential losses. But that's life in Red Sox nation these days.

Coy has given way to confident, hope to haughtiness and tight budgets to almost unlimited funds. What used to require a leap of faith can now be accomplished simply by shuffling your feet. Even former New York mayor and Yankee Stadium fixture Rudy Giuliani had no problem climbing on the bandwagon.

"I'm rooting for the Red Sox," the Republican presidential contender said the other day to applause in a Boston restaurant.

He called his loyalty to Boston temporary - "I'm an American League fan," he said - but Giuliani is simply hoping his newfound affection is rewarded in kind by voters up the road in New Hampshire, thick with Red Sox fans and site of the nation's first primary. So at least he's got an excuse. The same can't be said for all those who climbed aboard just ahead of him.

When Boston beat the Cardinals in the 2004 World Series, it was less about reversing a curse than finding an owner willing to spend enough to knock the pinstripes off the Yankees. John Henry got a taste of what he was in for shortly after buying the team in 2002 and getting his nose bloodied in a bidding war with New York for the services of Cuban defector Jose Contreras. Afterward, team president Larry Lucchino complained, "The evil empire extends its tentacles even into Latin America."

But earlier this year Boston sunk its tentacles into Japan deeper than those same Yankees could, laying out $51 million just for the right to negotiate with pitcher Daisuke Matsuzaka, then doubled down to lock him up for six years. The Colorado Rockies, the last team standing between Boston and all that free furniture, spent $54 million for their entire payroll.

While Red Sox fans are quick to point out that that the Yankees' opening-day tab of $195 million dwarfed their own by almost the same amount, the third-place team in the financial arms race, the Mets, began the season another $30 million back. The Yankees' willingness to spend and spend and spend on free agents, and eat their expensive mistakes if need be, is what aggravated the rest of baseball forever. But at least the franchise and their fans reveled in that role.

Red Sox fans, meanwhile, continue to think themselves as underdogs instead of overlords, even though their ballclub has become nearly as bloated and just as dependent on mercenaries. They gave J.D. Drew a $14 million-a-year deal, for example, they're on their fourth shortstop since the 2004 title, and only eight players off that championship 25-man roster remain.

None of that has kept them from becoming the darlings of baseball's TV networks or selling out enemy ballparks with their own fans, something that only the Yankees and the Cubs, who have the lovable losers tag now all to themselves, manage to do.
no articles on chickenhawks to post?
 
[icon] said:
Workhorse said:
I find these articles hilarious. It makes it seem like Sox fans long for the days where we were seen as the plucky underdogs who were destined to rip our hearts out every time. Like Boston preferred to be the poetic losers and media darlings over being a championship winner.

Fact is, most long suffering Red Sox fans didn't give two craps HOW we did it. We just wanted to win. Period. There were tons of Sox fans who wanted Dolan to win the bidding war for the franchise because he had the deep pockets necessary to spend with the Yankees.

Now that the Red Sox are "Yankee Lite" in terms of payroll and the rest of the league hates our team, do you really think that Sox fans care one bit?
:blackdot: I have a yankees fan who has now emailed me the "yankees lite" article 3 times expecting to get a rise out of me... all 3 times I've simply responded with: "and?"

As long as the ownership has a solid farm system in place producing talent like Ellsubury, Pedrioa, Youk, Bucholz, Papelbon. Lester, Sanchez, Ramirez, etc.... then I could care less if they make a splash or two in the FA market each year and are in the top 4-5 in payroll.

As long as we're not #1 and we're working toward a solid young base while remaining compeitive year in and year out... who cares :thumbdown:
So you are telling us that there are certain paramaters you care about in regards to the team winning?
 
(THATS THE REAL REASON EVERYONE ELSE DISLIKES THE SOX NOW)
AND THIS AFFECTS MY LIFE HOW? :help: So you hate me. BFD. My beer will still be cold when I get home and the bed will still be warm at the end of the night. :unsure:
When did I say this affects you?I don't hate you..........hell, I envy you.I'm just pointing out why everyone is no longer in love with your Sox.Yankee and Sox are both in the same boat.........EVERYONE HATE's THEM(outside of NY/BOS)
really? seems like the sox bandwagon is still growingI dont see why people would start hating them now
 
Fiddles said:
(THATS THE REAL REASON EVERYONE ELSE DISLIKES THE SOX NOW)
AND THIS AFFECTS MY LIFE HOW? :lmao: So you hate me. BFD. My beer will still be cold when I get home and the bed will still be warm at the end of the night. :thumbup:
When did I say this affects you?I don't hate you..........hell, I envy you.I'm just pointing out why everyone is no longer in love with your Sox.Yankee and Sox are both in the same boat.........EVERYONE HATE's THEM(outside of NY/BOS)
really? seems like the sox bandwagon is still growingI dont see why people would start hating them now
New fans are always going to be attracted to winning and en vogue teams. The Sox are still a combination of a winning team and a media darling and that is going to attract new fans. As to why fans of other teams would hate them (after I believe rooting for them in 04... I would say)1) They win. People don't like winners2) The spend alot of money on their payroll.3) Their fans are often obnoxious. While this is opinion is a bit more subjective...noone likes to go to one of their teams' home games and see 20,000+ visiting fans hooting and hollering. People take it as disrespectful.
 
3) Their fans are often obnoxious. While this is opinion is a bit more subjective...noone likes to go to one of their teams' home games and see 20,000+ visiting fans hooting and hollering. People take it as disrespectful.
Maybe those other teams' fans should buy more tickets for their home games. :thumbup:
 
Pretty happy that 25% of boston's starting position players are home-grown rookies :thumbdown:
soooo.... 2 of them? I don't expect the Red Sox fans to feel bad at all about how they are winning, but don't try to act like you're completely different from how the Yankees did it. In fact, sticking a couple "home-grown" guys in with a bunch of stars that they bought is exactly how the Yankees did it. Enjoy it, nobody is telling you not to. Whether you care or not though, the Red Sox and Yankees are the exact same animal to the rest of the league.
 
Pretty happy that 25% of boston's starting position players are home-grown rookies :goodposting:
soooo.... 2 of them? I don't expect the Red Sox fans to feel bad at all about how they are winning, but don't try to act like you're completely different from how the -Yankees did it. In fact, sticking a couple "home-grown" guys in with a bunch of stars that they bought is exactly how the Yankees did it. Enjoy it, nobody is telling you not to. Whether you care or not though, the Red Sox and Yankees are the exact same animal to the rest of the league.
-Edit- I see it says rookies...my bad.Sox actually have 3. Pedroia, Youkilis, Ellsbury.Is that really uncommon though?Of the playoff teams his year. Cleveland has 3 starting positional players they originally drafted. Philadelphia 5, Angels 4. Hmm...Colorado has at least 6 I think, same with Arizona.But yet teams like Detroit have only 1 player.Seems as though it is not necessarily a rich vs poor thing. :popcorn:
 
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Pretty happy that 25% of boston's starting position players are home-grown rookies :goodposting:
soooo.... 2 of them?
:lmao: yea I laughed at the 25% thing.
Doesn't TB has the same amount of homegrown talent starting? Crawford, Young and Upton.
Sure, same exact thing. :shrug:
:angry:TB spends money on cheap free agents, and trades for cheap starters. Boston, NY, etc spend money on big money free agents, and trade for expensive players.NO, not the same thing...but many, many teams do not stock their major league roster with homegrown talent.
 
Pretty happy that 25% of boston's starting position players are home-grown rookies :thumbup:
soooo.... 2 of them?
:lmao: yea I laughed at the 25% thing.
Doesn't TB has the same amount of homegrown talent starting? Crawford, Young and Upton.
Sure, same exact thing. :thumbup:
:shrug:TB spends money on cheap free agents, and trades for cheap starters. Boston, NY, etc spend money on big money free agents, and trade for expensive players.NO, not the same thing...but many, many teams do not stock their major league roster with homegrown talent.
Yes you are correct but what you are failing to acknowledge is Tampa can't pay for expensive starters and the Johnny washed up Damons of the baseball world because of market capitalization. You are talking about a team in the 15th or so TV market which does not have a regional fan base. No one can compete with the Yankees, and the next tier of Boston, the LA teams, The Mets, and The Cubs (White Sox in the next group) also have a huge market advantage because of population and in Boston’s and the Cubs' case, a regional fan base. Philadelphia, Detroit, Atlanta, Dallas, Denver, Houston, Washington, San Francisco, and Phoenix are large enough to have payrolls in the 100 million range but they have to put a competitive product on the field otherwise they will lose money. And in some of those cities like it was demonstrated in the NLCS this year (Phoenix) don’t really like baseball as much as the bases in Detroit, Philadelphia, or the South side of Chicago do because it’s something new. The next tier of Tampa, Seattle, St Louis (regional), Cincinnati (includes Dayton and Indy), and Baltimore have to struggle to stay in the black. Bigger payrolls like in Seattle are rare but they generate a lot of stadium revenue to stay in the fight. Others like St Louis try to balance it all out and make smart trades and sign mid level FAs with upside who fit their scheme. As does Oakland. But in the end most teams outside of those big markets are going to have a tough time competing with the Yankees and Red Sox because they will never be spending 160 million or more. Most won’t even be getting close to 100 million without a committed ownership group that places a lot of value on winning. Because in those medium to small markets, the business side of baseball tells you that you don’t want to lose 20 million dollars a year with a hefty payroll and a team that doesn’t respond.
 
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Pretty happy that 25% of boston's starting position players are home-grown rookies :shrug:
soooo.... 2 of them? I don't expect the Red Sox fans to feel bad at all about how they are winning, but don't try to act like you're completely different from how the Yankees did it. In fact, sticking a couple "home-grown" guys in with a bunch of stars that they bought is exactly how the Yankees did it. Enjoy it, nobody is telling you not to. Whether you care or not though, the Red Sox and Yankees are the exact same animal to the rest of the league.
While I agree that to the rest of hte league Sox $150MM = Yanks $200MM... and I'm not apologizing for it... I do like that we're starting 2 rookies. Wasn't a comment of homegrown talent per se (which the yankees do have in jeter, melky, posada, etc despite the typical jabs). Just like seeing a lot of young kids earning starting slots on a "high dollar roster".
 
Pretty happy that 25% of boston's starting position players are home-grown rookies :unsure:
soooo.... 2 of them?
:lmao: yea I laughed at the 25% thing.
Doesn't TB has the same amount of homegrown talent starting? Crawford, Young and Upton.
Sure, same exact thing. :thumbup:
:shrug:TB spends money on cheap free agents, and trades for cheap starters. Boston, NY, etc spend money on big money free agents, and trade for expensive players.NO, not the same thing...but many, many teams do not stock their major league roster with homegrown talent.
Yes you are correct but what you are failing to acknowledge is Tampa can't pay for expensive starters and the Johnny washed up Damons of the baseball world because of market capitalization. You are talking about a team in the 15th or so TV market which does not have a regional fan base. No one can compete with the Yankees, and the next tier of Boston, the LA teams, The Mets, and The Cubs (White Sox in the next group) also have a huge market advantage because of population and in Boston’s and the Cubs' case, a regional fan base. Philadelphia, Detroit, Atlanta, Dallas, Denver, Houston, Washington, San Francisco, and Phoenix are large enough to have payrolls in the 100 million range but they have to put a competitive product on the field otherwise they will lose money. And in some of those cities like it was demonstrated in the NLCS this year (Phoenix) don’t really like baseball as much as the bases in Detroit, Philadelphia, or the South side of Chicago do because it’s something new. The next tier of Tampa, Seattle, St Louis (regional), Cincinnati (includes Dayton and Indy), and Baltimore have to struggle to stay in the black. Bigger payrolls like in Seattle are rare but they generate a lot of stadium revenue to stay in the fight. Others like St Louis try to balance it all out and make smart trades and sign mid level FAs with upside who fit their scheme. As does Oakland. But in the end most teams outside of those big markets are going to have a tough time competing with the Yankees and Red Sox because they will never be spending 160 million or more. Most won’t even be getting close to 100 million without a committed ownership group that places a lot of value on winning. Because in those medium to small markets, the business side of baseball tells you that you don’t want to lose 20 million dollars a year with a hefty payroll and a team that doesn’t respond.
:shrug: The system is definitely flawed. There should be a min and max.... maybe 60-120MM range that keeps it competitive. NOt that there aren't a good variety of teams winning it all... but it's much harder for a smaller market team to compete year in and year out. The big dollar squads will make the playoffs most years and have a shot at some rings 5x a decade whereas smaller market teams might only be able to make a run once or twice a decade... some even less than that.
 
[icon] said:
The system is definitely flawed. There should be a min and max.... maybe 60-120MM range that keeps it competitive. NOt that there aren't a good variety of teams winning it all... but it's much harder for a smaller market team to compete year in and year out. The big dollar squads will make the playoffs most years and have a shot at some rings 5x a decade whereas smaller market teams might only be able to make a run once or twice a decade... some even less than that.
I wouldn't even mind if they did it just to control the Yankees who are obviously the clear outlier in the system although an argument could be made they also put the most back in the pot. If they went 60-150 I could probably accept that. I guess they would have to look at the seven or eight smallest market's bottom line to determine the floor. If KC can still make money with a 60 million dollar payroll then that would be the floor. But 150 seems like enough that the big markets would buy off on it and the only team that would probably really fight it would be the Yankees. Not sure this is coming anytime soon but I think they should at least stop the Yankees from spending from their bottomless pit of money. I don't apologize for the Red Sox either but I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing in their situation. They make more than probably anyone but the Yankees and maybe the Cubs (not sure) so why not put it back into the club? I fault the system more than I fault the Yankees or the Red Sox.
 
[icon] said:
The system is definitely flawed. There should be a min and max.... maybe 60-120MM range that keeps it competitive. NOt that there aren't a good variety of teams winning it all... but it's much harder for a smaller market team to compete year in and year out. The big dollar squads will make the playoffs most years and have a shot at some rings 5x a decade whereas smaller market teams might only be able to make a run once or twice a decade... some even less than that.
I wouldn't even mind if they did it just to control the Yankees who are obviously the clear outlier in the system although an argument could be made they also put the most back in the pot. If they went 60-150 I could probably accept that. I guess they would have to look at the seven or eight smallest market's bottom line to determine the floor. If KC can still make money with a 60 million dollar payroll then that would be the floor. But 150 seems like enough that the big markets would buy off on it and the only team that would probably really fight it would be the Yankees. Not sure this is coming anytime soon but I think they should at least stop the Yankees from spending from their bottomless pit of money. I don't apologize for the Red Sox either but I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing in their situation. They make more than probably anyone but the Yankees and maybe the Cubs (not sure) so why not put it back into the club? I fault the system more than I fault the Yankees or the Red Sox.
That's just the tip of the iceberg though... What would you do with the entire minor league system? Is that on a cap also? Scouts, Baseball Academies in Latin America, International Free Agents?I'm not opposed to increasing the luxury tax as long as it includes the agreement of a salary floor.
 
[icon] said:
The system is definitely flawed. There should be a min and max.... maybe 60-120MM range that keeps it competitive. NOt that there aren't a good variety of teams winning it all... but it's much harder for a smaller market team to compete year in and year out. The big dollar squads will make the playoffs most years and have a shot at some rings 5x a decade whereas smaller market teams might only be able to make a run once or twice a decade... some even less than that.
I wouldn't even mind if they did it just to control the Yankees who are obviously the clear outlier in the system although an argument could be made they also put the most back in the pot. If they went 60-150 I could probably accept that. I guess they would have to look at the seven or eight smallest market's bottom line to determine the floor. If KC can still make money with a 60 million dollar payroll then that would be the floor. But 150 seems like enough that the big markets would buy off on it and the only team that would probably really fight it would be the Yankees. Not sure this is coming anytime soon but I think they should at least stop the Yankees from spending from their bottomless pit of money. I don't apologize for the Red Sox either but I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing in their situation. They make more than probably anyone but the Yankees and maybe the Cubs (not sure) so why not put it back into the club? I fault the system more than I fault the Yankees or the Red Sox.
That's just the tip of the iceberg though... What would you do with the entire minor league system? Is that on a cap also? Scouts, Baseball Academies in Latin America, International Free Agents?I'm not opposed to increasing the luxury tax as long as it includes the agreement of a salary floor.
Why would it affect the minor league system? Right now the league has a non spoken rule which the Tigers are breaking and using it to their advantage to land better players in the draft than anyone else. The Yankees can and should use their resources outside of salary to their advantage. That's running a business. A cap or a luxury tax at least at a one to one rate would at least insure the field is leveled somewhat. I still think the Yankees should be able to spend more than anyone else if they choose but I think we've reached a point where they have too much of an advantage in free agency and in trades for the best players because they can offer the most money. Again, I don't have a problem with the Yankees doing this I have a problem with the league allowing it and when you get to a point where the Yankees have at least double the payroll of 28 of 30 teams, it's out of hand. No offense to the fans, but they have bought there way into the playoffs the past two years at least. When franchises with 70 or even 100 million dollar payrolls lose a key clog they can't just pull a 10 million dollar guy a year off their bench or trade for a good player with a bad contract to fill in. Baseball has been outside the control of anti-trust laws because of good league management under Judge Landis (I think he made this so IIRC). The free agency rule hurt baseball for a century and it took a brave man in Curt Flood who risked his career to finally bring that to its knees. But even that didn't work. Do you know that in 1985 baseball owners secretly conspired to hold free agency at a reasonable clip and really prevented movement? Sorry but that hurt my team the most. Tigers would have won three championships if they were allowed to acquire guys to replace some of there aging vets and they would have spent whatever in that place and time. What I'm saying is baseball has the strongest union and league management but they are often stuck in tradition and in this case they are being bullied by the elephant in the room known as the New York Yankees. But I do understand all the intracacies of this. I also believe there should be a floor and I believe the Yankees should still have an advantage because of the sheer volume of capital they produce. But face it, it's ridiculous at the moment. They don't have the front line starters to win in the playoffs and they have made some poor trade and FA decisions but yet still have enough to overcome that to slide into the postseason while better teams are left watching on TV because of one or two key injuries.
 
I told you people.. but you didn't listen to old Darth. "oh the idiots are so great". "Cowboy Up". "Manny being Manny", "We're dirtballs". "There's the loveable Caveman patroling Center". "Arryo's album is great", " THE BLOODY SOCK OH MY GOD THE BLOODY SOCK". All you fool fans of other teams were ecstatic that the RedSox embarassed the Evil Empire in 2004. You lapped it up like nickle beer happy hour. But... the worm has turned. Little did you realize you got rid of one monster and replaced with another one. Maybe next time you'll root for the natural order of thing.
The "natural order of things"?????????????????????????Jealousy is not your strong point.Let's let the evil empire embarass themselves. Nice job of treating your manager by the way.
 

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