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Mike Mayock's Rookie WR Rankings (1 Viewer)

Hip Hop Harry

Hip Hop Harry

Footballguy
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I have always respected Mike Mayock but Limas Sweed #1 and Early Doucet #2?? All of his other positional rankings are consistent with the experts but WR is way out of the box. The only WR he has in his top 5 that most others do is Malcolm Kelly and he is #5 behind DeSean Jackson who some don't even consider a viable NFL WR.

What is he seeing that no one else is??

 
WR is incrediibly difficult this year. I recently watched Sweed vs Kelly and decided Sweed's better. I could change. So could Mayock. He liked Manningham at #1 before the Combine.

Prediction: The most productive NFL receiver in this draft does not get drafted in the first round. I'll take the field. It's that hard to separate them, imo.

 
I can see someone ranking Sweed #1 - he probably has the highest ceiling of any WR in the draft physically, and can make more "plays that no one else can make" - although I think Kelly is close in both categories and has showed way more that translates to the NFL.

Doucet #2 (or even #1) would not have been that ridiculous coming into this year.

 
Chaos Commish said:
WR is incrediibly difficult this year. I recently watched Sweed vs Kelly and decided Sweed's better. I could change. So could Mayock. He liked Manningham at #1 before the Combine.Prediction: The most productive NFL receiver in this draft does not get drafted in the first round. I'll take the field. It's that hard to separate them, imo.
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:coffee: as usual CC is right.btw, CC, your comment about reversing the 13-20 WR tier in the 100 may be prophetic.
 
Hip Hop Harry said:
Link

I have always respected Mike Mayock but Limas Sweed #1 and Early Doucet #2?? All of his other positional rankings are consistent with the experts but WR is way out of the box. The only WR he has in his top 5 that most others do is Malcolm Kelly and he is #5 behind DeSean Jackson who some don't even consider a viable NFL WR.

What is he seeing that no one else is??
Click to expand...
I lost a good bit of respect for Mayock's WR rankings when just before the combine all he did was drool over Manningham's deep speed and ability. After a poor 40 time, he is no longer even on Mayock's radar. Mayock seems to pride himself in breaking down the film on these guys. The film tells you Manningham is much fast than his combine time indicates. I have no problems with him dropping him, but something tells me when Manningham bust out a nice time at the Michigan pro day all of a sudden he will be the fist back on the ship.This really is just a difficult class to judge. Kelly seems to be a pretty steady figure in the top 5, but that really is about it.

 
Sigmund Bloom said:
Chaos Commish said:
WR is incrediibly difficult this year. I recently watched Sweed vs Kelly and decided Sweed's better. I could change. So could Mayock. He liked Manningham at #1 before the Combine.Prediction: The most productive NFL receiver in this draft does not get drafted in the first round. I'll take the field. It's that hard to separate them, imo.
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:confused: as usual CC is right.btw, CC, your comment about reversing the 13-20 WR tier in the 100 may be prophetic.
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Thanks, but I was joking. :lol:And when my opinions change like wind direction I'm bound to get a few right. This is by far the toughest class that I can ever remember trying to form into top tens by position. Eery position is just packed with mystery. WR is just part of the problem.
 
Chaos Commish said:
EBF said:
:lol:
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You have such strong opinions this year. I can barely form one. :confused:
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My first impression of Sweed wasn't good. I thought he was tall and coordinated, but too stiff to separate. He's actually more athletic than I thought though. He can run a bit and he's pretty fluid. He's not super high on my board right now, but I can understand some optimism there. Doucet is okay, but a top 2 WR in this class? That seems like a stretch. He's good at lots of things, but great at none. Right now I favor some of the flashier guys. That said, Doucet has a little bit of that Greg Jennings/Anthony Gonzalez vibe and I could see him being productive at the next level. System will be important for him, IMO.
 
Mayock seems proud to be different than the other experts. There have been times when his boldness has proved correct (having Cutler as QB1 over VY and Leinart looks good for now) but many times when he has been wrong too. It seems en vogue to bash Kiper and spread the love for Mayock, but I just don't get it.

 
Hip Hop Harry said:
Link

I have always respected Mike Mayock but Limas Sweed #1 and Early Doucet #2?? All of his other positional rankings are consistent with the experts but WR is way out of the box. The only WR he has in his top 5 that most others do is Malcolm Kelly and he is #5 behind DeSean Jackson who some don't even consider a viable NFL WR.

What is he seeing that no one else is??
Click to expand...
The best draft rankings are not gained by consensus. He's shown some skill in the past.
 
there isn't much separation among the WR's but there is a nice array of talents and depth. almost anyteam can get a good WR for their system in rounds 2-4. I can't really say sweed is #1 or not, i can barely tell the difference between sweed/kelly and hardy.

 
ninerfanatic492000 said:
i can barely tell the difference between sweed/kelly and hardy.
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Sweed is circus catches and the like - his trump card is great speed and agility for his size combined with sick adjustments to the ball in flight.Kelly has exceptional hands and is a much stronger runner after the catch. Like Sweed, he can do damage in the air, but unlike Sweed he's a little morequick twitch with his leaps and get up to snag bullets in addition to the high wire act, but his acrobatics on the 50/50 balls aren't as good as Sweed's, and he mightnot do as well in the combine tests.Hardy is more like a less polished/weaker Plax - he uses his height as a big weapon especially in the red zone. He's not quite as athletic as Sweed/Kelly but exploits his size advantage better than them.
 
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how can Kelly not be 1 or 2? I watched his youtube highlights and I saw him catch ball after ball with his hands. I was impressed with some of the catches he flashes.

 
Sabertooth said:
Hip Hop Harry said:
Link

I have always respected Mike Mayock but Limas Sweed #1 and Early Doucet #2?? All of his other positional rankings are consistent with the experts but WR is way out of the box. The only WR he has in his top 5 that most others do is Malcolm Kelly and he is #5 behind DeSean Jackson who some don't even consider a viable NFL WR.

What is he seeing that no one else is??
Click to expand...
The best draft rankings are not gained by consensus. He's shown some skill in the past.
Click to expand...
:hifive: :devil:
 
Sigmund Bloom said:
ninerfanatic492000 said:
i can barely tell the difference between sweed/kelly and hardy.
Click to expand...
Sweed is circus catches and the like - his trump card is great speed and agility for his size combined with sick adjustments to the ball in flight.Kelly has exceptional hands and is a much stronger runner after the catch. Like Sweed, he can do damage in the air, but unlike Sweed he's a little morequick twitch with his leaps and get up to snag bullets in addition to the high wire act, but his acrobatics on the 50/50 balls aren't as good as Sweed's, and he mightnot do as well in the combine tests.Hardy is more like a less polished/weaker Plax - he uses his height as a big weapon especially in the red zone. He's not quite as athletic as Sweed/Kelly but exploits his size advantage better than them.
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As I watched them play, both from highlights and fast forwarding game recordings a thought occurred to me. If Sweed had Bradford throwing him the ball, he wouldn't have so many acrobatic catches. If Kelly had McCoy throwing him the ball, he'd probably have a lot more acrobatic catches. :)Bradford was so ridiculous Kelly makes a lot of catches when he has very little separation or is quite well covered, but they are simple catches laid in his lap by that freak QB. Sweed has the same issues with being open and getting separation, but he makes great adjustments getting to balls that are not well thrown. They both could struggle to get open in the NFL. Hardy actually seemed to have less of an issue with separation than either of them. :thumbup:
 
Tecmo said:
how can Kelly not be 1 or 2? I watched his youtube highlights and I saw him catch ball after ball with his hands. I was impressed with some of the catches he flashes.
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:no: Kelly's hands are what set him apart from everyone else. You can compare other attributes until the cows come home. But in the end, if a WR doesn't catch the ball nothing else matters. :lmao:
 
jeter23 said:
Mayock seems proud to be different than the other experts. There have been times when his boldness has proved correct (having Cutler as QB1 over VY and Leinart looks good for now) but many times when he has been wrong too. It seems en vogue to bash Kiper and spread the love for Mayock, but I just don't get it.
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I think the jury is still out on Leinart. Certainly Leinart hasn't done much since coming into the league but supposedly he is taking life in the NFL more seriously this year and is rehabbing nicely from last year's injury.
 
This is how I see the WR rookie rankings (of course this could change once they each have a team)

Quite a few changes for me since the combine and as more information has been presented about each player

Malcolm Kelly

Early Doucet

Devin Thomas

DeSean Jackson

Mario Manningham

Donnie Avery

Andre Caldwell

Limas Sweed

Jordy Nelson

Adarius Bowman

James Hardy

I have never been a big fan of Limas Sweed and that continues as the draft approaches. Just because he is 6'4 and has receiving skills doesn't make him the next Plaxico Burress. Just ask Dwayne Jarret or Mike Williams. I see Sweed as a better player or should I say executor than Jarrett, but he has some work to do before he climbs to the next level.

 
Jeff Haseley said:
I have never been a big fan of Limas Sweed and that continues as the draft approaches. Just because he is 6'4 and has receiving skills doesn't make him the next Plaxico Burress. Just ask Dwayne Jarret or Mike Williams. I see Sweed as a better player or should I say executor than Jarrett, but he has some work to do before he climbs to the next level.
Click to expand...
What about Sweed's game reminds you of Jarrett/Williams?
 
Sigmund Bloom said:
Jeff Haseley said:
I have never been a big fan of Limas Sweed and that continues as the draft approaches. Just because he is 6'4 and has receiving skills doesn't make him the next Plaxico Burress. Just ask Dwayne Jarret or Mike Williams. I see Sweed as a better player or should I say executor than Jarrett, but he has some work to do before he climbs to the next level.
Click to expand...
What about Sweed's game reminds you of Jarrett/Williams?
Click to expand...
Hopefully he'll have more drive than Jarrett/Williams, but at first glance I don't see it. To me he is just another WR who relies on his talent to get him places and not the will to be better. I've seen it before in players like Brandon Lloyd, Antonio Bryant, Koren Robinson, Mike Williams, Dwayne Jarrett. It all starts with disciplined route running, aggressiveness without the ball, down field blocking, adequate coaching of proper techniques, etc. It's these types of players who think they have it - that don't wind up having "it" in the NFL. Those WRs who work hard, who continuously strive for more aren't too common. Those that do have a strong work ethic, who don't take plays off, who strive to be better by listening to those around them who have "been there" before, they are the ones that tend to do well in the NFL. Sweed and Jarrett and Williams' skills were good in college in very basic offenses against basic defenses. Once they reach the pro level and have to learn multiple variations of various formations, not to mention defensive backs who have it their goal to put "the rookie" in his place - it's no longer the same game. Those who grasp the game and the position by the horns and learn from the best and continuously strive to achieve are the ones who do well. I just don't see it from Sweed. Plus Sweed doesn't have blazing speed and that alone should take him down a few notches. Not many WRs outside of Randy Moss can roll out of bed and be a star in the NFL. I'm not saying Limas Sweed is going to be a bust, but his college scouting report and his credentials don't force me to think he's going to change into this completely different WR. We'll see, but my instincts force me to drop him down several notches among other WRs who have better fundamentals, better catching skills, better route running skills. This could just be me, but that's what I see in Limas Sweed.
 
jevy said:
Who are the top route runners of these rookies?
Click to expand...
Surprisingly, this is probably the one facet of Malcolm Kelly's game that could improve. He's not horrible, but he's not as fluid and as crisp as some of the others. Devin Thomas is in the same boat, maybe a little less polished.Good route runners include..1. Andre Caldwell2. Mario Manningham3. Early Doucet4. DeSean Jackson 5. Earl Bennett6. Donnie Avery7. Harry Douglas8. Adarius BowmanThe above are good route runners. It's hard to put them into rank, but that's my best attempt. 5-8 could probably be rearranged in any order, but those are the good route runners of the top 12-15 WRs in the draft. There are others like Davone Bess from Hawaii who also runs very good routes, but his ceiling isn't as high as the others. Those who are a bit lacking in the route running department are Devin Thomas, Limas Sweed, Jordy Nelson and to an extent Malcolm Kelly. Kelly's others skills alone catapult him to the top of the rankings in my opinion.
 
this is definetly a year where teams should not select a WR in the 1st round.

Too much of a crap shoot and rankings all over the place.

it is quite possible that an NFL team could see their #1 rated WR last till the late 2nd or early 3rd Round.

 
Wu-banger said:
this is definetly a year where teams should not select a WR in the 1st round. Too much of a crap shoot and rankings all over the place.it is quite possible that an NFL team could see their #1 rated WR last till the late 2nd or early 3rd Round.
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While I agree that there aren't many WRs with elite talent in this draft, I wouldn't go as far as to say that it will be the late 2nd rd before a team takes the #1 WR. Malcolm Kelly, DeSean Jackson, Devin Thomas and Early Doucet could all be gone by middle of the 2nd round, with possibly two of those four going in the first.
 
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Jeff Haseley said:
Sigmund Bloom said:
Jeff Haseley said:
I have never been a big fan of Limas Sweed and that continues as the draft approaches. Just because he is 6'4 and has receiving skills doesn't make him the next Plaxico Burress. Just ask Dwayne Jarret or Mike Williams. I see Sweed as a better player or should I say executor than Jarrett, but he has some work to do before he climbs to the next level.
Click to expand...
What about Sweed's game reminds you of Jarrett/Williams?
Click to expand...
Hopefully he'll have more drive than Jarrett/Williams, but at first glance I don't see it. To me he is just another WR who relies on his talent to get him places and not the will to be better. I've seen it before in players like Brandon Lloyd, Antonio Bryant, Koren Robinson, Mike Williams, Dwayne Jarrett. It all starts with disciplined route running, aggressiveness without the ball, down field blocking, adequate coaching of proper techniques, etc. It's these types of players who think they have it - that don't wind up having "it" in the NFL. Those WRs who work hard, who continuously strive for more aren't too common. Those that do have a strong work ethic, who don't take plays off, who strive to be better by listening to those around them who have "been there" before, they are the ones that tend to do well in the NFL. Sweed and Jarrett and Williams' skills were good in college in very basic offenses against basic defenses. Once they reach the pro level and have to learn multiple variations of various formations, not to mention defensive backs who have it their goal to put "the rookie" in his place - it's no longer the same game. Those who grasp the game and the position by the horns and learn from the best and continuously strive to achieve are the ones who do well. I just don't see it from Sweed. Plus Sweed doesn't have blazing speed and that alone should take him down a few notches. Not many WRs outside of Randy Moss can roll out of bed and be a star in the NFL. I'm not saying Limas Sweed is going to be a bust, but his college scouting report and his credentials don't force me to think he's going to change into this completely different WR. We'll see, but my instincts force me to drop him down several notches among other WRs who have better fundamentals, better catching skills, better route running skills. This could just be me, but that's what I see in Limas Sweed.
Click to expand...
Sweed is a pretty good character kid and hard worker from everything Ive heard. I share your skepticism that stems from Sweed not having a natural WR game on the field, but if he fails, it won't be because of a big head or not working hard enough.
 
Jeff Haseley said:
jevy said:
Who are the top route runners of these rookies?
Click to expand...
Surprisingly, this is probably the one facet of Malcolm Kelly's game that could improve. He's not horrible, but he's not as fluid and as crisp as some of the others. Devin Thomas is in the same boat, maybe a little less polished.Good route runners include..1. Andre Caldwell2. Mario Manningham3. Early Doucet4. DeSean Jackson 5. Earl Bennett6. Donnie Avery7. Harry Douglas8. Adarius BowmanThe above are good route runners. It's hard to put them into rank, but that's my best attempt. 5-8 could probably be rearranged in any order, but those are the good route runners of the top 12-15 WRs in the draft. There are others like Davone Bess from Hawaii who also runs very good routes, but his ceiling isn't as high as the others. Those who are a bit lacking in the route running department are Devin Thomas, Limas Sweed, Jordy Nelson and to an extent Malcolm Kelly. Kelly's others skills alone catapult him to the top of the rankings in my opinion.
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I would agree with that list except for Douglas. He rounded off everything when we watched him in Mobile and got a LOT of correction from the coaching staff.I don't think Bess is even the best route runner of the Hawaii wideouts in the draft this year... Rivers, OTOH :thumbup:
 
Jeff Haseley said:
Wu-banger said:
this is definetly a year where teams should not select a WR in the 1st round. Too much of a crap shoot and rankings all over the place.it is quite possible that an NFL team could see their #1 rated WR last till the late 2nd or early 3rd Round.
Click to expand...
While I agree that there aren't many WRs with elite talent in this draft, I wouldn't go as far as to say that it will be the late 2nd rd before a team takes the #1 WR. Malcolm Kelly, DeSean Jackson, Devin Thomas and Early Doucet could all be gone by middle of the 2nd round, with possibly two of those four going in the first.
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I think Wu meant that some teams will see the #1 WR on their board last til the end of the 2nd, not that no WRs will go off the board til the late 2nd(and I agree)
 
Hip Hop Harry said:
Link

I have always respected Mike Mayock but Limas Sweed #1 and Early Doucet #2?? All of his other positional rankings are consistent with the experts but WR is way out of the box. The only WR he has in his top 5 that most others do is Malcolm Kelly and he is #5 behind DeSean Jackson who some don't even consider a viable NFL WR.

What is he seeing that no one else is??
Click to expand...
And those who are asleep on DeSean Jackson will simply miss the boat. I've watched enough of this guy in college, in my own backyard, to know that he is ultra-explosive. There isn't a guy in the NFL with his combination of quickness/agility/burst/instincts. You must not have seen this.......
Hester has some competition now for the top returner.........Simply put the ball in his hands in space, and watch the defense get very worried. I'm not concerned about size, this guy has tremendous work ethic and a skill set that is valuable to NFL teams......anyone thinking that this guy is not a 1st Rd pick is either 1) a hater, or 2) just not in the know like they think they are......

Book it!.......

 
Jeff Haseley said:
Wu-banger said:
this is definetly a year where teams should not select a WR in the 1st round. Too much of a crap shoot and rankings all over the place.it is quite possible that an NFL team could see their #1 rated WR last till the late 2nd or early 3rd Round.
Click to expand...
While I agree that there aren't many WRs with elite talent in this draft, I wouldn't go as far as to say that it will be the late 2nd rd before a team takes the #1 WR. Malcolm Kelly, DeSean Jackson, Devin Thomas and Early Doucet could all be gone by middle of the 2nd round, with possibly two of those four going in the first.
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I was not saying that a WR would not be taken till the late 2nd ... some will be gone in the 1st for sure.Out of the 4 you listed it is possible (as we have seen in the various rankings) that none of them are #1 on a NFL Teams board and a team could land THEIR top rated WR in the 3rd.I actually feel that there could be some very good NFL caliber WR's coming out this year , it is just too difficult to figure out which ones they will be and teams would be better to wait.
 
Sigmund Bloom said:
Jeff Haseley said:
jevy said:
Who are the top route runners of these rookies?
Click to expand...
Surprisingly, this is probably the one facet of Malcolm Kelly's game that could improve. He's not horrible, but he's not as fluid and as crisp as some of the others. Devin Thomas is in the same boat, maybe a little less polished.Good route runners include..1. Andre Caldwell2. Mario Manningham3. Early Doucet4. DeSean Jackson 5. Earl Bennett6. Donnie Avery7. Harry Douglas8. Adarius BowmanThe above are good route runners. It's hard to put them into rank, but that's my best attempt. 5-8 could probably be rearranged in any order, but those are the good route runners of the top 12-15 WRs in the draft. There are others like Davone Bess from Hawaii who also runs very good routes, but his ceiling isn't as high as the others. Those who are a bit lacking in the route running department are Devin Thomas, Limas Sweed, Jordy Nelson and to an extent Malcolm Kelly. Kelly's others skills alone catapult him to the top of the rankings in my opinion.
Click to expand...
I would agree with that list except for Douglas. He rounded off everything when we watched him in Mobile and got a LOT of correction from the coaching staff.I don't think Bess is even the best route runner of the Hawaii wideouts in the draft this year... Rivers, OTOH :unsure:
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Bloom, how much higher would you rank Jason Rivers over his teammate Davone Bess? 1a and 1b or is there a sizeable difference in your opinion?
 
Wu-banger said:
Jeff Haseley said:
Wu-banger said:
this is definetly a year where teams should not select a WR in the 1st round. Too much of a crap shoot and rankings all over the place.it is quite possible that an NFL team could see their #1 rated WR last till the late 2nd or early 3rd Round.
Click to expand...
While I agree that there aren't many WRs with elite talent in this draft, I wouldn't go as far as to say that it will be the late 2nd rd before a team takes the #1 WR. Malcolm Kelly, DeSean Jackson, Devin Thomas and Early Doucet could all be gone by middle of the 2nd round, with possibly two of those four going in the first.
Click to expand...
I was not saying that a WR would not be taken till the late 2nd ... some will be gone in the 1st for sure.Out of the 4 you listed it is possible (as we have seen in the various rankings) that none of them are #1 on a NFL Teams board and a team could land THEIR top rated WR in the 3rd.I actually feel that there could be some very good NFL caliber WR's coming out this year , it is just too difficult to figure out which ones they will be and teams would be better to wait.
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OK, I'm following you now Wu :whoosh:
 
Jeff Haseley said:
Sigmund Bloom said:
Jeff Haseley said:
jevy said:
Who are the top route runners of these rookies?
Click to expand...
Surprisingly, this is probably the one facet of Malcolm Kelly's game that could improve. He's not horrible, but he's not as fluid and as crisp as some of the others. Devin Thomas is in the same boat, maybe a little less polished.Good route runners include..1. Andre Caldwell2. Mario Manningham3. Early Doucet4. DeSean Jackson 5. Earl Bennett6. Donnie Avery7. Harry Douglas8. Adarius BowmanThe above are good route runners. It's hard to put them into rank, but that's my best attempt. 5-8 could probably be rearranged in any order, but those are the good route runners of the top 12-15 WRs in the draft. There are others like Davone Bess from Hawaii who also runs very good routes, but his ceiling isn't as high as the others. Those who are a bit lacking in the route running department are Devin Thomas, Limas Sweed, Jordy Nelson and to an extent Malcolm Kelly. Kelly's others skills alone catapult him to the top of the rankings in my opinion.
Click to expand...
I would agree with that list except for Douglas. He rounded off everything when we watched him in Mobile and got a LOT of correction from the coaching staff.I don't think Bess is even the best route runner of the Hawaii wideouts in the draft this year... Rivers, OTOH :whoosh:
Click to expand...
Bloom, how much higher would you rank Jason Rivers over his teammate Davone Bess? 1a and 1b or is there a sizeable difference in your opinion?
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It all depends on what a team is looking for. Rivers, Bess, and Grice-Mullen are all late round types, but Rivers has the game to run longer routes and getopen with body and control and great breaks - maybe even translate to a true outside WR, where Bess and Grice-Mullen are more slot receiver types who get open with quickness. Bess is probably the best athlete of the 3, Rivers the best natural receiver. Bess and Grice-Mullen are built more like smallish RBs, Rivers, built like an NFL wideout.
 
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Sigmund Bloom said:
Jeff Haseley said:
Sigmund Bloom said:
Jeff Haseley said:
jevy said:
Who are the top route runners of these rookies?
Click to expand...
Surprisingly, this is probably the one facet of Malcolm Kelly's game that could improve. He's not horrible, but he's not as fluid and as crisp as some of the others. Devin Thomas is in the same boat, maybe a little less polished.Good route runners include..1. Andre Caldwell2. Mario Manningham3. Early Doucet4. DeSean Jackson 5. Earl Bennett6. Donnie Avery7. Harry Douglas8. Adarius BowmanThe above are good route runners. It's hard to put them into rank, but that's my best attempt. 5-8 could probably be rearranged in any order, but those are the good route runners of the top 12-15 WRs in the draft. There are others like Davone Bess from Hawaii who also runs very good routes, but his ceiling isn't as high as the others. Those who are a bit lacking in the route running department are Devin Thomas, Limas Sweed, Jordy Nelson and to an extent Malcolm Kelly. Kelly's others skills alone catapult him to the top of the rankings in my opinion.
Click to expand...
I would agree with that list except for Douglas. He rounded off everything when we watched him in Mobile and got a LOT of correction from the coaching staff.I don't think Bess is even the best route runner of the Hawaii wideouts in the draft this year... Rivers, OTOH :lmao:
Click to expand...
Bloom, how much higher would you rank Jason Rivers over his teammate Davone Bess? 1a and 1b or is there a sizeable difference in your opinion?
Click to expand...
It all depends on what a team is looking for. Rivers, Bess, and Grice-Mullen are all late round types, but Rivers has the game to run longer routes and getopen with body and control and great breaks - maybe even translate to a true outside WR, where Bess and Grice-Mullen are more slot receiver types who get open with quickness. Bess is probably the best athlete of the 3, Rivers the best natural receiver. Bess and Grice-Mullen are built more like smallish RBs, Rivers, built like an NFL wideout.
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Good info about Hawaii's WRs. It's not too often the main land, especially the east coast gets a chance to see any of these players in Hawaii. Two questions..1. Has there ever been a team that drafted 3 WRs from the same school in the same draft? If so, when was the last time? (just wondering)2. How much does the play of Hawaii's trio of WRs improve Colt Brennan's game? Is Colt the same QB with those #s without such an impressive trio of WRs?
 
Jeff Haseley said:
Sigmund Bloom said:
Jeff Haseley said:
I have never been a big fan of Limas Sweed and that continues as the draft approaches. Just because he is 6'4 and has receiving skills doesn't make him the next Plaxico Burress. Just ask Dwayne Jarret or Mike Williams. I see Sweed as a better player or should I say executor than Jarrett, but he has some work to do before he climbs to the next level.
Click to expand...
What about Sweed's game reminds you of Jarrett/Williams?
Click to expand...
Hopefully he'll have more drive than Jarrett/Williams, but at first glance I don't see it. To me he is just another WR who relies on his talent to get him places and not the will to be better. I've seen it before in players like Brandon Lloyd, Antonio Bryant, Koren Robinson, Mike Williams, Dwayne Jarrett. It all starts with disciplined route running, aggressiveness without the ball, down field blocking, adequate coaching of proper techniques, etc. It's these types of players who think they have it - that don't wind up having "it" in the NFL. Those WRs who work hard, who continuously strive for more aren't too common. Those that do have a strong work ethic, who don't take plays off, who strive to be better by listening to those around them who have "been there" before, they are the ones that tend to do well in the NFL. Sweed and Jarrett and Williams' skills were good in college in very basic offenses against basic defenses. Once they reach the pro level and have to learn multiple variations of various formations, not to mention defensive backs who have it their goal to put "the rookie" in his place - it's no longer the same game. Those who grasp the game and the position by the horns and learn from the best and continuously strive to achieve are the ones who do well. I just don't see it from Sweed. Plus Sweed doesn't have blazing speed and that alone should take him down a few notches. Not many WRs outside of Randy Moss can roll out of bed and be a star in the NFL. I'm not saying Limas Sweed is going to be a bust, but his college scouting report and his credentials don't force me to think he's going to change into this completely different WR. We'll see, but my instincts force me to drop him down several notches among other WRs who have better fundamentals, better catching skills, better route running skills. This could just be me, but that's what I see in Limas Sweed.
Click to expand...
I agree with you Jeff. Something about Sweed I just don't like. Can't really articulate it though.
 
Jeff Haseley said:
Sigmund Bloom said:
Jeff Haseley said:
Sigmund Bloom said:
Jeff Haseley said:
jevy said:
Who are the top route runners of these rookies?
Click to expand...
Surprisingly, this is probably the one facet of Malcolm Kelly's game that could improve. He's not horrible, but he's not as fluid and as crisp as some of the others. Devin Thomas is in the same boat, maybe a little less polished.Good route runners include..1. Andre Caldwell2. Mario Manningham3. Early Doucet4. DeSean Jackson 5. Earl Bennett6. Donnie Avery7. Harry Douglas8. Adarius BowmanThe above are good route runners. It's hard to put them into rank, but that's my best attempt. 5-8 could probably be rearranged in any order, but those are the good route runners of the top 12-15 WRs in the draft. There are others like Davone Bess from Hawaii who also runs very good routes, but his ceiling isn't as high as the others. Those who are a bit lacking in the route running department are Devin Thomas, Limas Sweed, Jordy Nelson and to an extent Malcolm Kelly. Kelly's others skills alone catapult him to the top of the rankings in my opinion.
Click to expand...
I would agree with that list except for Douglas. He rounded off everything when we watched him in Mobile and got a LOT of correction from the coaching staff.I don't think Bess is even the best route runner of the Hawaii wideouts in the draft this year... Rivers, OTOH :lmao:
Click to expand...
Bloom, how much higher would you rank Jason Rivers over his teammate Davone Bess? 1a and 1b or is there a sizeable difference in your opinion?
Click to expand...
It all depends on what a team is looking for. Rivers, Bess, and Grice-Mullen are all late round types, but Rivers has the game to run longer routes and getopen with body and control and great breaks - maybe even translate to a true outside WR, where Bess and Grice-Mullen are more slot receiver types who get open with quickness. Bess is probably the best athlete of the 3, Rivers the best natural receiver. Bess and Grice-Mullen are built more like smallish RBs, Rivers, built like an NFL wideout.
Click to expand...
Good info about Hawaii's WRs. It's not too often the main land, especially the east coast gets a chance to see any of these players in Hawaii. Two questions..1. Has there ever been a team that drafted 3 WRs from the same school in the same draft? If so, when was the last time? (just wondering)2. How much does the play of Hawaii's trio of WRs improve Colt Brennan's game? Is Colt the same QB with those #s without such an impressive trio of WRs?
Click to expand...
1. Ginn, Gonzalez, and Hall from Ohio State last year. Mark Clayton, Mark Bradley, and Brandon Jones were all drafted on the first day from the Oklahoma WR corps in 2005. This group is not close to either of those. Its more like the Obomanu, Aromashadu, Mix group from Auburn in 06. 2 were 7th rounders and 1 was a PFA.2. The WRs definitely padded Brennan's #s. Lots of RAC in that offense.
 
Sigmund Bloom said:
Jeff Haseley said:
Sigmund Bloom said:
Jeff Haseley said:
I have never been a big fan of Limas Sweed and that continues as the draft approaches. Just because he is 6'4 and has receiving skills doesn't make him the next Plaxico Burress. Just ask Dwayne Jarret or Mike Williams. I see Sweed as a better player or should I say executor than Jarrett, but he has some work to do before he climbs to the next level.
Click to expand...
What about Sweed's game reminds you of Jarrett/Williams?
Click to expand...
Hopefully he'll have more drive than Jarrett/Williams, but at first glance I don't see it. To me he is just another WR who relies on his talent to get him places and not the will to be better. I've seen it before in players like Brandon Lloyd, Antonio Bryant, Koren Robinson, Mike Williams, Dwayne Jarrett. It all starts with disciplined route running, aggressiveness without the ball, down field blocking, adequate coaching of proper techniques, etc. It's these types of players who think they have it - that don't wind up having "it" in the NFL. Those WRs who work hard, who continuously strive for more aren't too common. Those that do have a strong work ethic, who don't take plays off, who strive to be better by listening to those around them who have "been there" before, they are the ones that tend to do well in the NFL. Sweed and Jarrett and Williams' skills were good in college in very basic offenses against basic defenses. Once they reach the pro level and have to learn multiple variations of various formations, not to mention defensive backs who have it their goal to put "the rookie" in his place - it's no longer the same game. Those who grasp the game and the position by the horns and learn from the best and continuously strive to achieve are the ones who do well. I just don't see it from Sweed. Plus Sweed doesn't have blazing speed and that alone should take him down a few notches. Not many WRs outside of Randy Moss can roll out of bed and be a star in the NFL. I'm not saying Limas Sweed is going to be a bust, but his college scouting report and his credentials don't force me to think he's going to change into this completely different WR. We'll see, but my instincts force me to drop him down several notches among other WRs who have better fundamentals, better catching skills, better route running skills. This could just be me, but that's what I see in Limas Sweed.
Click to expand...
Sweed is a pretty good character kid and hard worker from everything Ive heard. I share your skepticism that stems from Sweed not having a natural WR game on the field, but if he fails, it won't be because of a big head or not working hard enough.
Click to expand...
Yeah. Sweed's intangibles are off the charts and he shines in interviews. Very hard worker, very dedicated, very football smart, good kid. The primadonna is appearing to be Kelly, who won't workout (the quad story has holes in it, Rang says he has elected to not workout for scouts), he came out early, acts like a kid, wears a bunch of bling, and has produced since his freshman year on pure talent with great QB play in a running offense. It all reeks of Jarrett so much it bugs me. When he declared he called himself the "go to" guy. Okay. Show me. Of course, he supposedly runs in the mid 4.4s unlike Jarrett and can bust a 38" vertical. I am anxious to see him measured. If the stories of his measureables turn out to be true, then sure, he should be the #1 wr in the draft, but I think I would pass. I have absolutely no worries about Sweed, filmwork, off season dedication, team attitude, listening to those around him who have been there before, etc. I do however see possible issues with those things for Kelly. He's the "natural" in this class. Has been since high school, but he doesn't give me the warm fuzzy feeling Calvin did with the personal stuff.
 
Chaos Commish said:
Sigmund Bloom said:
Jeff Haseley said:
Sigmund Bloom said:
Jeff Haseley said:
I have never been a big fan of Limas Sweed and that continues as the draft approaches. Just because he is 6'4 and has receiving skills doesn't make him the next Plaxico Burress. Just ask Dwayne Jarret or Mike Williams. I see Sweed as a better player or should I say executor than Jarrett, but he has some work to do before he climbs to the next level.
Click to expand...
What about Sweed's game reminds you of Jarrett/Williams?
Click to expand...
Hopefully he'll have more drive than Jarrett/Williams, but at first glance I don't see it. To me he is just another WR who relies on his talent to get him places and not the will to be better. I've seen it before in players like Brandon Lloyd, Antonio Bryant, Koren Robinson, Mike Williams, Dwayne Jarrett. It all starts with disciplined route running, aggressiveness without the ball, down field blocking, adequate coaching of proper techniques, etc. It's these types of players who think they have it - that don't wind up having "it" in the NFL. Those WRs who work hard, who continuously strive for more aren't too common. Those that do have a strong work ethic, who don't take plays off, who strive to be better by listening to those around them who have "been there" before, they are the ones that tend to do well in the NFL. Sweed and Jarrett and Williams' skills were good in college in very basic offenses against basic defenses. Once they reach the pro level and have to learn multiple variations of various formations, not to mention defensive backs who have it their goal to put "the rookie" in his place - it's no longer the same game. Those who grasp the game and the position by the horns and learn from the best and continuously strive to achieve are the ones who do well. I just don't see it from Sweed. Plus Sweed doesn't have blazing speed and that alone should take him down a few notches. Not many WRs outside of Randy Moss can roll out of bed and be a star in the NFL. I'm not saying Limas Sweed is going to be a bust, but his college scouting report and his credentials don't force me to think he's going to change into this completely different WR. We'll see, but my instincts force me to drop him down several notches among other WRs who have better fundamentals, better catching skills, better route running skills. This could just be me, but that's what I see in Limas Sweed.
Click to expand...
Sweed is a pretty good character kid and hard worker from everything Ive heard. I share your skepticism that stems from Sweed not having a natural WR game on the field, but if he fails, it won't be because of a big head or not working hard enough.
Click to expand...
Yeah. Sweed's intangibles are off the charts and he shines in interviews. Very hard worker, very dedicated, very football smart, good kid. The primadonna is appearing to be Kelly, who won't workout (the quad story has holes in it, Rang says he has elected to not workout for scouts), he came out early, acts like a kid, wears a bunch of bling, and has produced since his freshman year on pure talent with great QB play in a running offense. It all reeks of Jarrett so much it bugs me. When he declared he called himself the "go to" guy. Okay. Show me. Of course, he supposedly runs in the mid 4.4s unlike Jarrett and can bust a 38" vertical. I am anxious to see him measured. If the stories of his measureables turn out to be true, then sure, he should be the #1 wr in the draft, but I think I would pass. I have absolutely no worries about Sweed, filmwork, off season dedication, team attitude, listening to those around him who have been there before, etc. I do however see possible issues with those things for Kelly. He's the "natural" in this class. Has been since high school, but he doesn't give me the warm fuzzy feeling Calvin did with the personal stuff.
Click to expand...
A hard worker without talent is just another anonymous guy. Don't get me wrong, work ethic is important. But you don't become Jerry Rice, Michael Jordan, or even someone like Keenan McCardell without the necessary pre-existing talent. News media outlets love the story of the scrappy overachiever who becomes a prominent pro player. What they don't tell you is that there are hundreds of those guys busting their tails in the gym every week only to end up playing in Arena 2. In the end, it's pretty tough to transcend your physical limitations. If my final conclusion is that Kelly is significantly more talented than Sweed then I'm going to have a tough time ranking Sweed first even if he is a choir boy. That said, character does matter. I think it's solely to blame for the demise of Charles Rogers and it's certainly had a negative effect on guys like Antonio Bryant and Chris Henry. It's something that needs to be factored into the overall equation when you're evaluating a prospect.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sigmund Bloom said:
Jeff Haseley said:
Sigmund Bloom said:
Jeff Haseley said:
Sigmund Bloom said:
Jeff Haseley said:
jevy said:
Who are the top route runners of these rookies?
Click to expand...
Surprisingly, this is probably the one facet of Malcolm Kelly's game that could improve. He's not horrible, but he's not as fluid and as crisp as some of the others. Devin Thomas is in the same boat, maybe a little less polished.Good route runners include..1. Andre Caldwell2. Mario Manningham3. Early Doucet4. DeSean Jackson 5. Earl Bennett6. Donnie Avery7. Harry Douglas8. Adarius BowmanThe above are good route runners. It's hard to put them into rank, but that's my best attempt. 5-8 could probably be rearranged in any order, but those are the good route runners of the top 12-15 WRs in the draft. There are others like Davone Bess from Hawaii who also runs very good routes, but his ceiling isn't as high as the others. Those who are a bit lacking in the route running department are Devin Thomas, Limas Sweed, Jordy Nelson and to an extent Malcolm Kelly. Kelly's others skills alone catapult him to the top of the rankings in my opinion.
Click to expand...
I would agree with that list except for Douglas. He rounded off everything when we watched him in Mobile and got a LOT of correction from the coaching staff.I don't think Bess is even the best route runner of the Hawaii wideouts in the draft this year... Rivers, OTOH :lmao:
Click to expand...
Bloom, how much higher would you rank Jason Rivers over his teammate Davone Bess? 1a and 1b or is there a sizeable difference in your opinion?
Click to expand...
It all depends on what a team is looking for. Rivers, Bess, and Grice-Mullen are all late round types, but Rivers has the game to run longer routes and getopen with body and control and great breaks - maybe even translate to a true outside WR, where Bess and Grice-Mullen are more slot receiver types who get open with quickness. Bess is probably the best athlete of the 3, Rivers the best natural receiver. Bess and Grice-Mullen are built more like smallish RBs, Rivers, built like an NFL wideout.
Click to expand...
Good info about Hawaii's WRs. It's not too often the main land, especially the east coast gets a chance to see any of these players in Hawaii. Two questions..1. Has there ever been a team that drafted 3 WRs from the same school in the same draft? If so, when was the last time? (just wondering)2. How much does the play of Hawaii's trio of WRs improve Colt Brennan's game? Is Colt the same QB with those #s without such an impressive trio of WRs?
Click to expand...
1. Ginn, Gonzalez, and Hall from Ohio State last year. Mark Clayton, Mark Bradley, and Brandon Jones were all drafted on the first day from the Oklahoma WR corps in 2005. This group is not close to either of those. Its more like the Obomanu, Aromashadu, Mix group from Auburn in 06. 2 were 7th rounders and 1 was a PFA.2. The WRs definitely padded Brennan's #s. Lots of RAC in that offense.
Click to expand...
I don't expect anything from the Hawaii receivers. They were more a product of the system than Brennan. Small, slow and weak, but so many of them someone got open and Brennan found them. They have been well trained to freelance routes based on the defense, and Brennan has been trained to read what his receivers see and hit them. Problem is every NFL team does this with far bigger faster stronger and more capable receivers than the Hawaii trio. Rivers is the best of the lot. I have a feeling he will be the only one drafted and quite late at that.
 
EBF said:
Chaos Commish said:
Sigmund Bloom said:
Jeff Haseley said:
Sigmund Bloom said:
Jeff Haseley said:
I have never been a big fan of Limas Sweed and that continues as the draft approaches. Just because he is 6'4 and has receiving skills doesn't make him the next Plaxico Burress. Just ask Dwayne Jarret or Mike Williams. I see Sweed as a better player or should I say executor than Jarrett, but he has some work to do before he climbs to the next level.
Click to expand...
What about Sweed's game reminds you of Jarrett/Williams?
Click to expand...
Hopefully he'll have more drive than Jarrett/Williams, but at first glance I don't see it. To me he is just another WR who relies on his talent to get him places and not the will to be better. I've seen it before in players like Brandon Lloyd, Antonio Bryant, Koren Robinson, Mike Williams, Dwayne Jarrett. It all starts with disciplined route running, aggressiveness without the ball, down field blocking, adequate coaching of proper techniques, etc. It's these types of players who think they have it - that don't wind up having "it" in the NFL. Those WRs who work hard, who continuously strive for more aren't too common. Those that do have a strong work ethic, who don't take plays off, who strive to be better by listening to those around them who have "been there" before, they are the ones that tend to do well in the NFL. Sweed and Jarrett and Williams' skills were good in college in very basic offenses against basic defenses. Once they reach the pro level and have to learn multiple variations of various formations, not to mention defensive backs who have it their goal to put "the rookie" in his place - it's no longer the same game. Those who grasp the game and the position by the horns and learn from the best and continuously strive to achieve are the ones who do well. I just don't see it from Sweed. Plus Sweed doesn't have blazing speed and that alone should take him down a few notches. Not many WRs outside of Randy Moss can roll out of bed and be a star in the NFL. I'm not saying Limas Sweed is going to be a bust, but his college scouting report and his credentials don't force me to think he's going to change into this completely different WR. We'll see, but my instincts force me to drop him down several notches among other WRs who have better fundamentals, better catching skills, better route running skills. This could just be me, but that's what I see in Limas Sweed.
Click to expand...
Sweed is a pretty good character kid and hard worker from everything Ive heard. I share your skepticism that stems from Sweed not having a natural WR game on the field, but if he fails, it won't be because of a big head or not working hard enough.
Click to expand...
Yeah. Sweed's intangibles are off the charts and he shines in interviews. Very hard worker, very dedicated, very football smart, good kid. The primadonna is appearing to be Kelly, who won't workout (the quad story has holes in it, Rang says he has elected to not workout for scouts), he came out early, acts like a kid, wears a bunch of bling, and has produced since his freshman year on pure talent with great QB play in a running offense. It all reeks of Jarrett so much it bugs me. When he declared he called himself the "go to" guy. Okay. Show me. Of course, he supposedly runs in the mid 4.4s unlike Jarrett and can bust a 38" vertical. I am anxious to see him measured. If the stories of his measureables turn out to be true, then sure, he should be the #1 wr in the draft, but I think I would pass. I have absolutely no worries about Sweed, filmwork, off season dedication, team attitude, listening to those around him who have been there before, etc. I do however see possible issues with those things for Kelly. He's the "natural" in this class. Has been since high school, but he doesn't give me the warm fuzzy feeling Calvin did with the personal stuff.
Click to expand...
A hard worker without talent is just another anonymous guy. Don't get me wrong, work ethic is important. But you don't become Jerry Rice, Michael Jordan, or even someone like Keenan McCardell without the necessary pre-existing talent. If my final conclusion is that Kelly is significantly more talented than Sweed then I'm going to have a tough time ranking Sweed first even if he is a choir boy. That said, character does matter. I think it's solely to blame for the demise of Charles Rogers and it's certainly had a negative effect on guys like Antonio Bryant and Chris Henry. It's something that needs to be factored into the overall equation when you're evaluating a prospect.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I am prepared to do a 180 on any criticisms of Kelly. He's hesitating, so so am I. There's no reason to consider him a head case like Rogers or Henry, and that's not what I'm worried about. I see a possible Jarrett type of immaturity at work here. My longstanding take here on WRs in the draft is "toughness" explains a whole lot about who does and doesn't make it. Mental toughness and maturity are part of that along with physical toughness. WRs in college do not need toughness and many look awesome then fail at the next level. I don't know how to clearly explain this. That position attracts some not so tough super athletes of all shapes and sizes who look like they translate but don't. Meachem had these red flags for me this time last year. Kelly goes over the middle but he runs scared like Meachem. Is he tough? How do we know. I think Sweed is fearless, very tough.
 
EBF said:
:wub:
Click to expand...
:goodposting: Looks like one of my comments. I just insulted you. :excited: No one in this draft is even remotely a sure thing. A deep class of 2nd and 3rd + round picks. The potential gems are the ones drafted by quality QBs. Here's hoping Devin Thomas and or Jerome Simpson get lucky and go to one of those teams.
 
Matt Zenitz has rankings from Baltimore's Press Box sports page. He's a pretty thorough sportswriter.

1. Limas Sweed, Texas (6-foot-3, 215 pounds)

Projected top 20 pick

STRENGTHS: Good leaping ability and can make acrobatic catches. Plays faster than his timed speed. Tough and will overpower smaller defenders. Elusive and physical after the catch.

WEAKNESSES: Lapses in concentration lead to dropped passes. Needs to refine route-running.

2. DeSean Jackson, California (5-foot-9, 169 pounds)

Projected Mid-Late First-Round Pick

STRENGTHS: Explosive athlete with blazing speed. Quick and elusive. Can take it the distance every time he touches the ball. Undersized but tough and will make the difficult catch. Deep threat. Excellent punt returner.

WEAKNESSES: Lacks size and bulk. Battled injuries in 2007 and has durability concerns.

3. Devin Thomas, Michigan State (6-foot-1, 216 pounds)

Projected Late First, Early Second-Round Pick

STRENGTHS: Has all the physical tools. Excellent timed speed. Tough and physical with good size and bulk. Decent blocker.

WEAKNESSES: One year-wonder who had only six catches his sophomore season after transferring from junior college. Does not always play up to his timed speed.

4. Malcolm Kelly, Oklahoma (6-foot-3, 224 pounds)

Projected Mid-Late First-Round Pick

STRENGTHS: Natural hands and will make highlight-reel catches. Can make the tough catch in traffic. Has good awareness of the sidelines and does a great job keeping his feet inbounds. Good leaper.

WEAKNESSES: Lacks elite timed speed and may struggle to separate in the NFL.

5. James Hardy, Indiana (6-foot-5, 217 pounds)

Projected Late First, Early Second-Round Pick

STRENGTHS: Tremendous size and leaping ability. Former basketball player who knows how to get good body position on defenders. At his best in the red zone and on jump balls.

WEAKNESSES: Lean frame and needs to add bulk. Will struggle to beat press coverage until he gets stronger. Needs to refine route-running.
Click to expand...
For now I have to keep Hardy above Kelly, but those of us preferring Sweed at this point seem to be growing in number. Anyone remember Sweed's catch to beat #1 ranked Ohio State as a sophomore? I've liked him since that day. Incredible pressure, great route, great catch on the sideline at the flag. Zenitz is also concerned about Kelly's speed and ability to separate. From what I've seen Sweed and Hardy get separation easier and more often.

Jeff -- Why is Hardy sooo low in your mind? More character stuff? I'm close to claiming eeeee for Hardy though he's nowhere near the sleeper Marshall was. I'm also very fickle on this whole group and open minded to reversing course on the drop of a hat or Pro Day.

 
Chaos Commish said:
Jeff -- Why is Hardy sooo low in your mind? More character stuff? I'm close to claiming eeeee for Hardy though he's nowhere near the sleeper Marshall was. I'm also very fickle on this whole group and open minded to reversing course on the drop of a hat or Pro Day.
Click to expand...
It's not just the character issues, but also his lack of aggressiveness and burst without the ball. One thing I've noticed is that the good WRs tend to be good before, during and after the catch is made. The reports I've read about him say that he needs to improve in that area. Be more focused, run better routes, get better separation. I suppose that may be critical of me right now, but when looking to differentiate among other WRs, I'm looking for whatever I can find.
 
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