Rookie DEs (1 Viewer)

FUBAR · Mar 16, 2008

I asked this in the Shark Pool, but figure I'd get a better response here.

Recently, it seems Gholston is preferred by some to Long, in FF. I'm wondering why.

Long is the safest bet in this class to be a productive player at the next level, and he'll probably last much longer than anyone else. He's a player I'd consider high in the 2nd in IDP friendly leagues.

Gholston has good upside as a pass rusher, but I just don't see him as dominant overall. Sort of a pass rush specialist, not quite Freeney - better tackler, better able to shed blocks and will be relevant in the run D, but not quite as good an overall game as the truly elite DEs.

Long seems like he could be better all-around than Mario Williams, perhaps Julius Peppers.

In very sack heavy leagues I can see Gholston, but in most setups, I'm taking Long.

Also, please tell us more about Merling, I haven't seen enough of him. Does he belong in this conversation?

Rozelle · Mar 16, 2008

I think its a good bet Gholston will be standing up on Sunday's. If drafted by a 3-4, he most likely will be a LB. I can't see him getting past Jets 1.06 or Patriots at 1.07.

Long is pretty much in the same boat. Watch who drafts him. He'll prolly be a LB in a base 34 and DL in a 43.

I don't have much to say about Merling

Jene Bramel · Mar 16, 2008

Just now starting my prep, so take these as early first impressions.

Long looks like an elite NFL type player. Could probably work as a 4-3 end, 3-4 end or 3-4 OLB. As Rozelle said, it depends on who drafts him. If he goes to a team that can surround him with talent and let him play a 1-gap end role, there's plenty of upside. If not, he'll probably be a much better NFL talent than IDP value.

I've heard everything about Gholston. Looks like a 3-4 OLB, then that teams were thinking he's a better fit at 4-3 end. Like all tweeners, his IDP value will depend entirely on scoring system and scheme/opportunity.

Merling is interesting. He's got the size scouts drool over in an every down 4-3 end and some speed to go with it. I've seen him projected in the early first into the early second, so I don't know where his NFL value currently lies. These guys are so hard to peg, though. Charles Johnson had some similar reports last year, as have many others. It's rare for an end to have every down impact his rookie year. Merling would look to be on the short list of good candidates, though.

Chaos Commish · Mar 21, 2008

Long

Gholston

Groves

Harvey

They're all tweeners in one way or another. Long was so impressive in the OLB drills that I expect him to be placed in that role in Miami should Parcells form of the 3-4 develop there. This is not good for IDP prospects.

Gholston is billed as a 3-4 OLB more than he should be. His game is standard 4-3 DE as he's a little too stiff and raw to play LB. I know they used him a little that way, dropping him into the flats, but he's a raw kid, who I only expect to be at home as a RDE in a 4-3. That's actually a valuable assessment even though it's contrary in a negative way.

Groves really looks the part of the 3-4 OLB, but in a 4-3 his stock goes way up and he is certainly capable of playing that position. This is a great athlete, but the rush backer position isn't real exciting for fantasy purposes. I'm trying to deal Merriman for a much lesser player.

Harvey may have the best fantasy upside of them all. He's a playmaker. He's known for disappearing, but that doesn't bother me the more I consider all DLs tend to do the same thing. Again, he's flashed the athleticism to interest 3-4 clubs as an OLB, so...

The draft is huge for ranking these four. Situation is just about everything, imo.

I would not grade Long as a Peppers or Mario type of talent. No, those guys were ridiculous. I do think all four of the above are better prospects than Gaines Adams was a year ago, which means I don't give Long and/or Gholston the separation most seem to see.

Merling doesn't interest me as a fantasy player. He plays like a 3-4 DE. He's got injury issues. He plays with a lot of heart and has a great motor, but he's not the pass rusher these other four are. He is powerful for his size which is a very good sign for translating, but he lacks the explosiveness to make a big fantasy impact. I think. I could be wrong. He has yet to be measured by the scouts. A groin pull turned into hernia surgery and he's going into the draft without working out for his suitors. Not a good start, but seemingly has excellent character and merits monitoring from FA as he should go undrafted in typical dynasty leagues.

Rozelle · Mar 21, 2008

Chaos Commish said:
Long

Gholston

Groves

Harvey

They're all tweeners in one way or another. Long was so impressive in the OLB drills that I expect him to be placed in that role in Miami should Parcells form of the 3-4 develop there. This is not good for IDP prospects.

Gholston is billed as a 3-4 OLB more than he should be. His game is standard 4-3 DE as he's a little too stiff and raw to play LB. I know they used him a little that way, dropping him into the flats, but he's a raw kid, who I only expect to be at home as a RDE in a 4-3. That's actually a valuable assessment even though it's contrary in a negative way.

Groves really looks the part of the 3-4 OLB, but in a 4-3 his stock goes way up and he is certainly capable of playing that position. This is a great athlete, but the rush backer position isn't real exciting for fantasy purposes. I'm trying to deal Merriman for a much lesser player.

Harvey may have the best fantasy upside of them all. He's a playmaker. He's known for disappearing, but that doesn't bother me the more I consider all DLs tend to do the same thing. Again, he's flashed the athleticism to interest 3-4 clubs as an OLB, so...

The draft is huge for ranking these four. Situation is just about everything, imo.

I would not grade Long as a Peppers or Mario type of talent. No, those guys were ridiculous. I do think all four of the above are better prospects than Gaines Adams was a year ago, which means I don't give Long and/or Gholston the separation most seem to see.

Merling doesn't interest me as a fantasy player. He plays like a 3-4 DE. He's got injury issues. He plays with a lot of heart and has a great motor, but he's not the pass rusher these other four are. He is powerful for his size which is a very good sign for translating, but he lacks the explosiveness to make a big fantasy impact. I think. I could be wrong. He has yet to be measured by the scouts. A groin pull turned into hernia surgery and he's going into the draft without working out for his suitors. Not a good start, but seemingly has excellent character and merits monitoring from FA as he should go undrafted in typical dynasty leagues.

I suppose thats cause he came to Ohio State as a LB and he's often compared to Vrabel, actually Vrabel has been working with him on his technique. He looks plenty athletic enough to play some LB. I think the OLB projection has alot to do with where people think he will be drafted.I think all of us IDP guys would love to see him playing down. but when you look at the draft order, it's hard to imagine him going any further than New England and any sooner then NY Jets. I suppose Miami could shock us all and take #1 overall. Oakland could be a sleeper, however Al may have a hard time passing on McFadden. If he's there when KC picks at 1.05 you can bet KC will be busy fielding offers from any team interested in Gholston.

I'm no draft guru, just looking at it from a fan perspective. What scenerio do you see playing out in which he does not go to a 3-4 team?

Chaos Commish · Mar 21, 2008

Rozelle said:
Chaos Commish said:

Long

Gholston

Groves

Harvey

They're all tweeners in one way or another. Long was so impressive in the OLB drills that I expect him to be placed in that role in Miami should Parcells form of the 3-4 develop there. This is not good for IDP prospects.

Gholston is billed as a 3-4 OLB more than he should be. His game is standard 4-3 DE as he's a little too stiff and raw to play LB. I know they used him a little that way, dropping him into the flats, but he's a raw kid, who I only expect to be at home as a RDE in a 4-3. That's actually a valuable assessment even though it's contrary in a negative way.

Groves really looks the part of the 3-4 OLB, but in a 4-3 his stock goes way up and he is certainly capable of playing that position. This is a great athlete, but the rush backer position isn't real exciting for fantasy purposes. I'm trying to deal Merriman for a much lesser player.

Harvey may have the best fantasy upside of them all. He's a playmaker. He's known for disappearing, but that doesn't bother me the more I consider all DLs tend to do the same thing. Again, he's flashed the athleticism to interest 3-4 clubs as an OLB, so...

The draft is huge for ranking these four. Situation is just about everything, imo.

I would not grade Long as a Peppers or Mario type of talent. No, those guys were ridiculous. I do think all four of the above are better prospects than Gaines Adams was a year ago, which means I don't give Long and/or Gholston the separation most seem to see.

Merling doesn't interest me as a fantasy player. He plays like a 3-4 DE. He's got injury issues. He plays with a lot of heart and has a great motor, but he's not the pass rusher these other four are. He is powerful for his size which is a very good sign for translating, but he lacks the explosiveness to make a big fantasy impact. I think. I could be wrong. He has yet to be measured by the scouts. A groin pull turned into hernia surgery and he's going into the draft without working out for his suitors. Not a good start, but seemingly has excellent character and merits monitoring from FA as he should go undrafted in typical dynasty leagues.

Click to expand...

I suppose thats cause he came to Ohio State as a LB and he's often compared to Vrabel, actually Vrabel has been working with him on his technique. He looks plenty athletic enough to play some LB. I think the OLB projection has alot to do with where people think he will be drafted.I think all of us IDP guys would love to see him playing down. but when you look at the draft order, it's hard to imagine him going any further than New England and any sooner then NY Jets. I suppose Miami could shock us all and take #1 overall. Oakland could be a sleeper, however Al may have a hard time passing on McFadden. If he's there when KC picks at 1.05 you can bet KC will be busy fielding offers from any team interested in Gholston.

I'm no draft guru, just looking at it from a fan perspective. What scenerio do you see playing out in which he does not go to a 3-4 team?

I'd say it's about 60-40 in favor of Gholston going in the first five picks. Miami, Rams, Falcons, Raiders, Chiefs... his grade seems to have upward momentum based on a few things like his Pro Day, interviews, and the growing realization of how the Giants pulled this off. So, there's a good chance he ends up on one of those 4-3s. I also think it's about 80-20 Long goes to Miami, so look at the next four. If he falls to the next five picks his 3-4 outlook goes up. If I run back across the info where he looked bad, not average, but bad in the LB drills, I'll post it. I'm sure Bloom has seen it and can confirm. I've watched him a bunch. I like him A LOT for a 4-3, but I cannot say I've ever seen the kind of lateral skills necessary to work as an LB on the edge.

Rozelle · Mar 21, 2008

Chaos Commish said:
Rozelle said:

Chaos Commish said:

Long

Gholston

Groves

Harvey

They're all tweeners in one way or another. Long was so impressive in the OLB drills that I expect him to be placed in that role in Miami should Parcells form of the 3-4 develop there. This is not good for IDP prospects.

Gholston is billed as a 3-4 OLB more than he should be. His game is standard 4-3 DE as he's a little too stiff and raw to play LB. I know they used him a little that way, dropping him into the flats, but he's a raw kid, who I only expect to be at home as a RDE in a 4-3. That's actually a valuable assessment even though it's contrary in a negative way.

Groves really looks the part of the 3-4 OLB, but in a 4-3 his stock goes way up and he is certainly capable of playing that position. This is a great athlete, but the rush backer position isn't real exciting for fantasy purposes. I'm trying to deal Merriman for a much lesser player.

Harvey may have the best fantasy upside of them all. He's a playmaker. He's known for disappearing, but that doesn't bother me the more I consider all DLs tend to do the same thing. Again, he's flashed the athleticism to interest 3-4 clubs as an OLB, so...

The draft is huge for ranking these four. Situation is just about everything, imo.

I would not grade Long as a Peppers or Mario type of talent. No, those guys were ridiculous. I do think all four of the above are better prospects than Gaines Adams was a year ago, which means I don't give Long and/or Gholston the separation most seem to see.

Merling doesn't interest me as a fantasy player. He plays like a 3-4 DE. He's got injury issues. He plays with a lot of heart and has a great motor, but he's not the pass rusher these other four are. He is powerful for his size which is a very good sign for translating, but he lacks the explosiveness to make a big fantasy impact. I think. I could be wrong. He has yet to be measured by the scouts. A groin pull turned into hernia surgery and he's going into the draft without working out for his suitors. Not a good start, but seemingly has excellent character and merits monitoring from FA as he should go undrafted in typical dynasty leagues.

Click to expand...

I suppose thats cause he came to Ohio State as a LB and he's often compared to Vrabel, actually Vrabel has been working with him on his technique. He looks plenty athletic enough to play some LB. I think the OLB projection has alot to do with where people think he will be drafted.I think all of us IDP guys would love to see him playing down. but when you look at the draft order, it's hard to imagine him going any further than New England and any sooner then NY Jets. I suppose Miami could shock us all and take #1 overall. Oakland could be a sleeper, however Al may have a hard time passing on McFadden. If he's there when KC picks at 1.05 you can bet KC will be busy fielding offers from any team interested in Gholston.

I'm no draft guru, just looking at it from a fan perspective. What scenerio do you see playing out in which he does not go to a 3-4 team?

Click to expand...

I'd say it's about 60-40 in favor of Gholston going in the first five picks. Miami, Rams, Falcons, Raiders, Chiefs... his grade seems to have upward momentum based on a few things like his Pro Day, interviews, and the growing realization of how the Giants pulled this off. So, there's a good chance he ends up on one of those 4-3s. I also think it's about 80-20 Long goes to Miami, so look at the next four. If he falls to the next five picks his 3-4 outlook goes up. If I run back across the info where he looked bad, not average, but bad in the LB drills, I'll post it. I'm sure Bloom has seen it and can confirm. I've watched him a bunch. I like him A LOT for a 4-3, but I cannot say I've ever seen the kind of lateral skills necessary to work as an LB on the edge.

I agree with all ... he grades out to go top 5, he's hot and climbing draft boards, has a greater chance to play 3-4 if he slides past 1.05, (actually I thinks its pretty much a lock) and I like him alot as a 4-3 end, but not much as a 3-4 OLB. I think if the Dolphins select Chris Long, then St. Louis will take either Jake Long or Glenn Dorsey and then Atlanta would take who's left between Dorsey or Long or possibly Matt Ryan. Atlanta has so many needs, I can't see them drafting a DE. Which brings us to a couple of 4-3 teams, Oakland and Kansas City. I read somewhere Al Davis could overdraft Ellis for a number of reasons, first ... they need a DT ... 2nd Davis loves Trojans and ... Kiffin is familar with Ellis. They could also slide back and get Ellis, maybe even work something out for Cincinnati's 1.09 involving Chad Johnson, you never know with Al. :thumbup:

Toads · Mar 21, 2008

LONG!

Chaos Commish · Mar 24, 2008

Frank Coyle gives the DE class an A

That surprises me.

He ranks Calais Campbell a suprising 3rd. Calais, who I'm pulling for as much as anyone in the draft, seems to have some Quentin Moses on him. He was considered by many the top prospect in this class a year ago (like Moses two years ago). And he had a disappointing season and has not shown well in the offseason poking and prodding. Coyle reports that he looked good in his final workout. If Campbell's lack of explosiveness could be fixed, he could be a great NFL player, but I have doubts.

Bossman · Apr 7, 2008

Has Gholston passed Long on everyones draft board now?

That seems to be what I'm reading/hearing.

Rozelle · Apr 7, 2008

Bossman said:
Has Gholston passed Long on everyones draft board now?

That seems to be what I'm reading/hearing.

Gholston the higher ceiling, Long the safer pick. Need to see where they go.

Zoomanji · Apr 7, 2008

Rozelle said:
Bossman said:

Has Gholston passed Long on everyones draft board now?

That seems to be what I'm reading/hearing.

Click to expand...

Gholston the higher ceiling, Long the safer pick. Need to see where they go.

Especially if Miami takes Long who isn't suited to 3-4 end

Sigmund Bloom · Apr 7, 2008

Zoomanji said:
Rozelle said:

Bossman said:

Has Gholston passed Long on everyones draft board now?

That seems to be what I'm reading/hearing.

Click to expand...

Gholston the higher ceiling, Long the safer pick. Need to see where they go.

Click to expand...

Especially if Miami takes Long who isn't suited to 3-4 end

Long played 3-4 end at Virginia.

obxlegends · Apr 7, 2008

Sigmund Bloom said:
Zoomanji said:

Rozelle said:

Bossman said:

Has Gholston passed Long on everyones draft board now?

That seems to be what I'm reading/hearing.

Click to expand...

Gholston the higher ceiling, Long the safer pick. Need to see where they go.

Click to expand...

Especially if Miami takes Long who isn't suited to 3-4 end

Click to expand...

Long played 3-4 end at Virginia.

Taken from my favorite 3 round mock...

Code:

Miami - Chris Long, DE, VirginiaThis just feels like the right pick. A high character player with NFL bloodlines who can handle both the dirty work of a 3-4 DE, the coverage duties of a 3-4 OLB, and generate pressure from both spots? Maybe Howie's kid won't end up being the best player in this draft, but he's unlikely be anything less than one of the ten best players in this class, and that is the kind of investment that lets you sleep at night when you choose a player #1 overall.

Zoomanji · Apr 7, 2008

Sigmund Bloom said:
Zoomanji said:

Rozelle said:

Bossman said:

Has Gholston passed Long on everyones draft board now?

That seems to be what I'm reading/hearing.

Click to expand...

Gholston the higher ceiling, Long the safer pick. Need to see where they go.

Click to expand...

Especially if Miami takes Long who isn't suited to 3-4 end

Click to expand...

Long played 3-4 end at Virginia.

Aren't college guys generally smaller?

Kirby · Apr 7, 2008

obxlegends said:
Sigmund Bloom said:

Zoomanji said:

Rozelle said:

Bossman said:

Has Gholston passed Long on everyones draft board now?

That seems to be what I'm reading/hearing.

Click to expand...

Gholston the higher ceiling, Long the safer pick. Need to see where they go.

Click to expand...

Especially if Miami takes Long who isn't suited to 3-4 end

Click to expand...

Long played 3-4 end at Virginia.

Click to expand...

Taken from my favorite 3 round mock...

Code:

Miami - Chris Long, DE, VirginiaThis just feels like the right pick. A high character player with NFL bloodlines who can handle both the dirty work of a 3-4 DE, the coverage duties of a 3-4 OLB, and generate pressure from both spots? Maybe Howie's kid won't end up being the best player in this draft, but he's unlikely be anything less than one of the ten best players in this class, and that is the kind of investment that lets you sleep at night when you choose a player #1 overall.

From seeing him in spandex at the combine, he's a tank from the waist down and he's got room to grow up top. I have no doubt he can be a 3-4 end.

Toads · Apr 7, 2008

Good topic.

I'm actually in a Rookie Draft this early....before the Marriage of players to NFL teams happens.

It makes for good theater. The average scoring for RB's, WR's and LB's is about 10 + points/game.....say an average of 10.33 or so. Each of those positions scores at that level with the average QB at the 16 + points/game mark

DL's average 8.6/gm so they have a bit less demand cureve.

Long lasted till the 2.04 spot (pick #16; no salary cap considerations) where I snagged him. Gohlston/Long....probably both are bound for multiple Pro Bowls. With no team affiliations, I flipped a coin and went with Long....suposedly the safer of the two.

If Gohlston is still hangin' at the 3.04, I'd not hesitate to take a second DE. Both these guys appear to have "can't loose" tags and both are in the top five players in most pre-draft ranking systems. You can't go wrong with either of these two guys.

Long was at 267 lbs for his private work outs and no posted times are available...but, I bet he's moving pretty good at that weight. He moved real good at 287 lbs so he's gotta have a "hip swivel" at the lesser weight.

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Rookie DEs (1 Viewer)

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