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Vernon Davis (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Tornacl
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Lott's Fingertip
Footballguy
He will become a good TE AND he will be overrated, his production will not match physical skills.
Blackjacks
Footballguy
I know Martz gets the reputation that he doesn't go to the TE alot but he has never had one with the talent of VD. Martz was a TE coach in college and even with STL in 1999 and 2000 when he had a less than great Roland Williams he helped him put up good #'s. I think VD is a top 5 guy this year and definetly top 5 for dynasty purposes. If Alex Smith can't get it done I'd really like to see what Shawn Hill could do. He looked like he had some potential last year. However, I'm not giving up on Alex Smith yet. If Martz can help Kitna put up back to back 4,000 yard passing campaigns anything is possible.
CalBear
Footballguy
Roland Williams put up good numbers? His best season he had 25 receptions for 226 yards. Kitna already had a season of almost 3600 yards and 26 TDs under his belt before he went to Detroit; that season was better than his Detroit seasons except in terms of number of attempts. That leaves aside the fact that Alex Smith sucks and Vernon Davis is massively overrated.
Rodeojones
Footballguy
Don't mince words...tell us how you really feel !
massraider
Footballguy
My expectations remain the same: Someone always thinks about that 4.38, watches a few Under Armor commercials, and he goes well before I would consider taking him.
not sure about underrated, but those stats are reachable IMO. Watching the Niners week in week out, Vernon was blocking about half the time. OC didnt know how to use him eventhough he is the best weapon in the passing game. Now we know Martz is a passing guru, and one would think he'll use the best RAC guy they got in Vernon Davis. Now let's see if his route-running etc etc has improved after being in the league for 2 years. One thing's for sure is VD's a beast, and Martz will use him, now let's see if he can come through. He has the work ethic, and the desire to be great.
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5Rings
Lurker
in dynasty, he's a buy low imo. redraft, i'd look at him around TE5-8 and be comfortable.as for those #s, i think he can get 900 yards maybe, but not 10 tds. i agree with the earlier dudes, martz won't be an idiot like hostler and keep vd in to block so much this year, as well as see lots of action and mismatches in the slot.
fuzzybear--
Birdie048
Footballguy
While I agree with the idea that Martz has not seen this sort of talent at TE, he has seen plenty of very talented pass catchers during his tenure as Master of the Faster Team on Turf - with M Faulk, I Bruce, T Holt & K Curtis. I believe V Davis has the potential to be an elite TE, but Martz will only utilize him to a limited capacity. Gore will be his centerpiece (aka M Faulk), and since he has Rev Ike back in the fold, he can utilize his route running to make more out of Bryant Johnson - the undervalued free agency pick up of the season (IMO). VD will be Top 15, not Top 5.
He was in the top 15 last year.- In the worst offense in the NFL- was kept in to block half the time- was injured for 2 games.Barring major injury he's guaranteed top 10 and has a chance to be a top 3 guy.
also, VD was the #6 TE in 2nd half of the year. can you say breakout????
Craig_MiamiFL
Footballguy
Was used terribly by old OC. Need to move him around. Top 10 TE. But he'll probably go before I'd take him.
EBF
Footballguy
Davis has the physical skills of Kellen Winslow and the receiving skills of Kellen Clemens. Seriously though, he isn't a natural receiver like the elite tight ends. He'll likely be a steady top 10 guy, but he'll have to elevate his game to justify his hype from a couple years ago.
Chunky Soup
Footballguy
There is little question he CAN be a top 3, potentially top 1 TE. He obviously has all of the physical gifts and his college career is very underrated around here -- he wasn't a workout warrior.
But through two years he hasn't come up big yet. Still, I like swinging for the fences in fantasy football and VD is definitely a guy I'd like to bet on. IMO he has a good chance to become an elite TE; a good offensive mind like Martz could be all that he needs.
But through two years he hasn't come up big yet. Still, I like swinging for the fences in fantasy football and VD is definitely a guy I'd like to bet on. IMO he has a good chance to become an elite TE; a good offensive mind like Martz could be all that he needs.
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I like the guy but you have a point.Blackjacks
Footballguy
You forgot to mention his 6 td'sAlmost one season in a 9 year career and then back to back with Martz (plus about 500 yards)
Sabertooth
Footballguy
VD is pretty much equal to David Boston. Except Boston actually produced for a year.
Ned
Footballguy
the_sig
Footballguy
To those that argue that Martz has never had a TE weapon like Davis....
Does it concern you at all that since Martz joined SF, that offense has acquired two WR's that fit Martz's system to a tee?
Bruce plays the Bruce role, Bryant plays the Holt role (yet to be seen how that works out) and Gore plays the Faulk/SJax role. What does that leave on the table for Davis? I don't have the answers here, I'm just wondering how the Davis supporters see him being used, especially to the extent that they are then forcasting Davis to be a top 5 TE in 2008.
I think all of these questions are moot if the QB situation doesn't improve by leaps and bounds in 2008.
Does it concern you at all that since Martz joined SF, that offense has acquired two WR's that fit Martz's system to a tee?
Bruce plays the Bruce role, Bryant plays the Holt role (yet to be seen how that works out) and Gore plays the Faulk/SJax role. What does that leave on the table for Davis? I don't have the answers here, I'm just wondering how the Davis supporters see him being used, especially to the extent that they are then forcasting Davis to be a top 5 TE in 2008.
I think all of these questions are moot if the QB situation doesn't improve by leaps and bounds in 2008.
i think they had to bring in some WRs to get better. Martz system is a complex one, and Bruce knows it. D-Jax has been a disappointment, and looks like Bryant Johnson wanted to be a Niner to showcase himself for next year. Vernon will be utilized if Martz is smart. Nolan did say it was a mistake getting OC from within last year, and now he obviously got a very good OC in Martz to run the ship.you're right about QB situation, but the good thing is they aren't stuck with Alex Smith. JT knows the system, while Hill showed a little bit of something last year. We'll see who steps up.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
He was hurt most of the time that Norv was there right? I think this season is going to tell us a whole lot. Positive: It is not like Martz is going to use him for blocking. Martz does not run and he does not like to keep extra bodies to block on pass plays. Negative: Martz does not seem to use TE's much. Positive: Martz has never had much talent at TE and never had such a lack of talent/depth at WR. If Martz really is a 'good' OC he will rely on Davis tons this season. Negative: Davis has never really shown the translation of talent and ability into the NFL game. Postive: Davis, through being injured and being used a lot in the blocking schemes, has never had the best of opportunities to really show us what he can do. Negative: Martz's system is known to be complicated. Can Davis learn it and adjust?
the_sig
Footballguy
Oh, I completely understand why they brought in the WR's they did. They do need to get better at WR. I'm just saying that the WR's fit the system Martz runs to a tee. From my observations of Martz as a STL homer, and the subsequent years in DET, I'd say he is a great OC, but he is also very stubborn. He runs HIS system. The move to acquire Bruce and Bryant only confirm that imo. I just don't know how Davis fits into Martz's system, to somehow make him a top 5 TE next year. That is the explanation I'm searching for.
5Rings
Lurker
This is JMO from what I've read and seen this offseason.....
Positives:
VD will be used as a slot WR in this offense. He's a matchup problem for opposing defenses, and Martz will be moving him all over to take advangtage of it. Think of VD as Shaun McDonald on steroids
VD will not used as a blocker 60% of the time like that idiot Hostler.
VD does not have Jerry Rice "hands", but he's not DJax either. I think he's gotten an unfair rap; most 49er fans will agree he markedly improved catching the ball in Yr2.
Negatives:
Can he pick up the offense? Will Martz tone it down to a "Run Forrest Run" for VD?
Can Smith get him--or anyone, for that matter--the ball?
I think you'll get SF (key word, SF) WR production out of the TE spot if you have VD this year. That said, SF WR production is likely to be in the 750-5 range.
Positives:
VD will be used as a slot WR in this offense. He's a matchup problem for opposing defenses, and Martz will be moving him all over to take advangtage of it. Think of VD as Shaun McDonald on steroids
VD will not used as a blocker 60% of the time like that idiot Hostler.
VD does not have Jerry Rice "hands", but he's not DJax either. I think he's gotten an unfair rap; most 49er fans will agree he markedly improved catching the ball in Yr2.
Negatives:
Can he pick up the offense? Will Martz tone it down to a "Run Forrest Run" for VD?
Can Smith get him--or anyone, for that matter--the ball?
I think you'll get SF (key word, SF) WR production out of the TE spot if you have VD this year. That said, SF WR production is likely to be in the 750-5 range.
Englishteacher
Footballguy
I think this is the big question with Vernon Davis, whether Martz will use him in the slot or not. At 4.38, he certainly has the speed to do it and he has TE size to be an effective middle of the field guy. However, if Martz keeps him on the line most or all of the time then that gets a little scary regarding VD's potential production because Martz has historically underutilized the TE's in his offenses. That's not to say 100% that Martz couldn't or wouldn't utitlize Davis in the offense if he's kept in the traditional TE spot because maybe he would adapt his system to fit a talent he now has in Davis. But, I like his chances of fantasy success far better if he is used in the slot and in a receiving role more often. However, when I saw the news on Martz's signing, I said, "There's a coordinator whose system is not going to match his talent at all." I'll give you four reasons. 1. The best player they have on offense is Frank Gore and he's more of a smashmouth, between the tackles guy than the speedier, versatile guy Martz had success in with Marshall Faulk. 2. The second big building block the 9'ers have invested in is a #6 overall draft choice with a huge contract and all kinds of unheard of, untapped natural ability who plays the TE position. And, Martz has never used the TE. 3. In order for Martz's system to work, he needs lineman who can protect. It's no wonder his most most successful team, the Rams, excelled in large part because they had perhaps the best left tackle in the game, Orlando pace. 4. Obviously, a passing offense needs a QB. Well, look at what the 9ers have at the position.
DarabZarrabi
Footballguy
I think its very shortshighted to just say that Bruce is going to play his old Bruce role and Bryant Johnson is going to play the Holt role...Holt is a thousand times more talented than Johnson, and Bruce is a shell of his former self. Martz is talented enough to adapt his system for his players (like at Mike Furrey a few years back...did he fit in as the "bruce" or the "holt") in your scheme?
Noone really knows how Martz uses his TE since he's never had one this good before. But if you think Martz is smart, VD will be utilized. Put him in motion, slot, backfiled, whatever and create mismatches for him. Hostler basically ignored VD !!! so I just dont think it can get any worse. VD also caught 62% of his targets (52/84), and I expect those targets to be at least around 110-120, assuming Martz is no Hostler.
the_sig
Footballguy
I think Martz brought Bruce in to do exactly what has done for years. He has been no TD machine, but since 2001, he is still a solid NFL WR2 ....and he knows the Martz playbook. I know he is up there in age @ 35, but I think he still has a reasonable year or two left in him. So yeah, I think the Rev plays the same role he has for the last 6-7 years. As for Bryant Johnson , I never said he has the same talent that Holt does, I even said it has yet to be seen if he can perform in that role (presumably as WR1??) Do you think SF signed Bryant to have him sub in as a WR3?? I think the fact that Martz brought in Furrey and Shaun McDonald to DET, when they had a bunch of 1st rd WR's already in house shows that Martz doesn't always adapt to the players he has. By the way, it’s not my 'scheme', it is Martz's.
As for the bolded part of your statement, completely disagree. Martz has talent as an OC, but you won't find many who have watched him coach for years say that he adapts well. He is pretty stubborn.
Englishteacher
Footballguy
As for the bolded part of your statement, completely disagree. Martz has talent as an OC, but you won't find many who have watched him coach for years say that he adapts well. He is pretty stubborn.
That is a pretty accurate statement.
The prospect of Davis working out of the slot is pretty alluring however. What would you guys estimate the chances (%) of Davis playing the slot, like how Dallas Clark is used in Indy, being?
I think the three scenarios we're looking at in trying to evaluate Davis are:
1. He operates mostly in-line from a traditional TE spot and Martz underutilizes him, despite his talent, like he always has with TE's in his offense.
2. Davis stays in most times but Martz changes his philosophy and works Davis into a substantial role in the offense.
3. Davis is allowed to play the slot in three-wide sets ala what Dallas Clark does in Indy in addition to the in-line role.
#3 would have me the most
with the natural ability the guy has but I still think a gargantuan type TE FF season, ala Antonio Gates and Tony Gonzalez, is going to be out of reach with the anemic offense and overall team and the fact Davis has yet to deliver anything close to what his upside is in actual field performance.
That is a pretty accurate statement.
The prospect of Davis working out of the slot is pretty alluring however. What would you guys estimate the chances (%) of Davis playing the slot, like how Dallas Clark is used in Indy, being?
I think the three scenarios we're looking at in trying to evaluate Davis are:
1. He operates mostly in-line from a traditional TE spot and Martz underutilizes him, despite his talent, like he always has with TE's in his offense.
2. Davis stays in most times but Martz changes his philosophy and works Davis into a substantial role in the offense.
3. Davis is allowed to play the slot in three-wide sets ala what Dallas Clark does in Indy in addition to the in-line role.
#3 would have me the most
with the natural ability the guy has but I still think a gargantuan type TE FF season, ala Antonio Gates and Tony Gonzalez, is going to be out of reach with the anemic offense and overall team and the fact Davis has yet to deliver anything close to what his upside is in actual field performance.
massraider
Footballguy
This guy gets a coach that has never utilized the TE, and people are still excited? I don't get it.
Englishteacher
Footballguy
The only way I'm excited about this move is if they utilize Davis in the slot a lot. I like the FF potential of a big, 255 pound guy who runs a 4.38 40 running pass routes (instead of blocking) getting a chance to be more of a WR. If Martz would use him there consistently when they go three-wide like Clark is used in Indy, then yes, that's potentially exciting. One thing Martz values in WR's is speed and Davis has the fastest 40 of any potential WR on the roster. The list of WR's on the team right now isn't exactly all that inspiring.Isaac Bruce - his best days are behind him and he'll play another year or twoBryant Johnson - stuck behind two great WR's most of his career but has never wowed anywayAshley Lelie - outisde of one semiproductive year or so has managed to bounce around from team to teamArnaz Battle - has been on the roster for awhile now, capable, injury prone, but not a jaw dropping talentThe best case scenario for Davis' FF value is him developing his natural ability into onfield production, getting a juicy role in the offense (ala working out of the slot to increase his statistics) and getting better QB and O-Line play. The jury is still out on this young man's career. Certainly, when you draft a TE #6 overall, you expect him to become a major playmaking threat. We have no idea how Martz will use Davis but on paper he has the ability to be a unique TE that commands attention in a variety of playmaking roles. And, Martz does run an aggressive, record breaking passing attack. Say Davis does develop into one of the Top 5 playmaking TE's in football, how does Martz use him in the offense? Will the '9ers get better QB play from Alex Smith or from someone else if he fails? Will the offensive line be able to sustain protection? Martz's system worked with the Rams when they had a guy who was perhaps the best left tackle in football, Orlando Pace, but failed when the Lion's didn't have talented protectors. Lastly, I forgot to mention, Davis and the offense would be well served by a successful defense orchestrated by Head Coach and defensive guru Mike Nolan as Martz likes to score lots of points with his aggressive playcalling.This guy gets a coach that has never utilized the TE, and people are still excited? I don't get it.
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massraider
Footballguy
Martz made Mike Furrey a 90-catch WR. I am not sure he needs great talent at the WR position. In fact, I am pretty sure he doesn't. As to Davis' 40-time, he's not their fastest receiving option, no matter what he ran in Indy a few years ago. And in order to use that speed, he has to catch the ball.
Personally, I think Battle is the guy to have on that team. Bryant Johnson will probably get drafted first, or maybe even Davis, in fantasy drafts.
Personally, I think Battle is the guy to have on that team. Bryant Johnson will probably get drafted first, or maybe even Davis, in fantasy drafts.
Englishteacher
Footballguy
I don't think any of the guys currently on the roster could beat Davis in a 40 yarder. Quickest? I don't know.
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