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Player Spotlight: Clinton Portis (1 Viewer)

Jason Wood

Zoo York
2008 Player Spotlight Series

One of Footballguys best assets is our message board community. The Shark Pool is, in our view, the best place on the internet to discuss, debate and analyze all things fantasy football. In what's become an annual tradition, the Player Spotlight series is a key part of the preseason efforts. As many of you know, we consider the Player Spotlight threads the permanent record for analyzing the fantasy prospects of the player in question. Last year, we published more than 140 offensive spotlights covering the vast majority of expected skill position starters. This year will be no different.

Each week we will post a list of players to be discussed. Those threads will remain open for the entire preseason, and should be a central point to discussion expectations for the player in question. Importantly, analysis done in the first week of posting will be part of the permanent record in two ways. 1) At the end of the week, we will tally the projections into a consensus. 2) We will select a number of pull quotes from forum contributors who make a compelling statement or observation. Both the projections and pull quotes will be part of a published article on the main website.

Thread Topic: Clinton Portis, RB, Washington Redskins

Player Page Link: Clinton Portis Player Page

Each article will include:

Detailed viewpoint from a Footballguys staff member
Highlighted member commentary from the message board threads
FBG Projections
Consensus Member ProjectionsThe Rules

In order for this thread to provide maximum value, we ask that you follow a few simple guidelines:

Focus commentary on the player in question, and your expectations for said player
Back up your expectations in whatever manner you deem appropriate; avoid posts that simply say "I hate him" or "He's the best"
To be included in the final synopsis and consensus outlook, you MUST provide projections for the playerProjections should include (at a minimum):

For QBs: Passing Yards, Passing TDs, Ints, Rush Yards, Rush TDs
For RBs: Rushes, Rushing Yards, Rush TDs, Receptions, Receiving Yards, Receiving TDs
For WRs & TEs: Receptions, Receiving Yards, Receiving TDsNow let's get on with the conversation! We look forward to your contributions and let me offer a personal thanks in anticipation of the great debate and analysis.

 
332 carries, 1361 yds, 12 TDs

38 receptions, 300 yds, 1 TD

Great player in a good situation. The health of the Wash Oline has been a problem over the years, but that still hasn't greatly derailed production. Solid RB 1 with upside to be top 3 if things break right.

 
Portis is constantly underrated, he was a top-5 RB last year despite his entire o-line being hurt, and very little help from the passing game. I think 1,800 total yards and 14 TD's is a likely scenario.

 
Clinton Portis is a work horse type back that can handle lots of carries. Out of his six seasons, he has three with over 300 rushing attempts and two others relatively close. He has three seasons where he did not miss a game and one other where he only missed one. He is also a good receiving option, having caught over 40 passed twice and over 30 three more seasons. In his two Redskin years without injury, he has finished 6th and 4th in FBG scoring and last year's 4th RB was with significant OL injury problems.

Yet for some reason, he seems to slip down to the bottom of the first round and into the second, where he is stupendous value. I see another very good year for Portis as the Redskins hopefully have less injury issues on the OL.

C Portis 330 rushes 1,452 yards 4.4 ypc and 44 receptions for 418 yds (9.5 ypc) & 13 TDs

 
Portis is one of the best players in fantasy.

In 3.5 years in Washington

1147 rushes

4616 Rushing yards

1010 receiving yards on 134 reception

36 total tds

If you extrapolate the half season the numbers come out to be

1274 carries

5139 yards rushing

151 receptions

1180 receiving yards

43 total tds

Do the math, 4 year average...

318.5 carries

1284.75 Yards

37.75 receptions

295 yards

10.75 tds

Just a blade of grass under 20 carries per game since coming to Washington, with over 2 catches per game. Obviously, they make it a point to get him the ball...ALOT. The talk of Betts eating into his time REALLY never came to fruition.

He's averaged over 1579 total yards per full season his time there, with just under 11 tds. When you consider some of the offensive lines he's had, the piss poor passing game the last season or 2, he can succeed in any situation. There's NO reason to be down on him.

I think the Skins will rely on him more this year than ever before. Maybe they'll let him play a little more finesse back now that Gibbs is gone.

355 carries

1526 Rushing Yards

10 Rushing TDs

54 Receptions

443 Yards

2 Receiving TDS

1,969 Total Yards

12 Total Tds

 
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Will likely end up with 1600-1700 total yards and 13-15 TDs.

Will likely get drafted like he'll end up with 1200-1300 total yards and 10 TDs.

I like him at 320 carries, 1,344 yards, 40 catches for 320 and 13 total TDs.

 
It was more fun last year.....when Portis was ridiculously under-valued by the Betts lovers and those afraid of his "injury".

350 carries, 1435 yds (4.1 per carry), 11 TDs

45 catches, 360 yds, 1 TD

 
New coaches. Heart breaking end to last season. I love the heart in this guy but this is the first year in a while where I thought CPs value should drop a little (from top 5 RBs to 8-10ish).

There are more unknowns regarding his coaching and play calling this year then at any other point in CPs NFL career. I feel it adds risk to a normal sure shot.

And gutwise - most regular players suddenly are CP fans when last year average players felt he was done. One thing I have learned over the years is when everyone thinks its going one way, it probably isn't.

I would knock him down about 10% - 20% statistically from last year. I don't think the ratio of TDs to Yards will change. I could be wrong though. He has been a stud for years and has been on 3 of my last 4 teams.

I am marking him down based mostly on the risk associated with him getting new coaching and the unknowns with the offensive line.

 
Portis does not get enough love, especially from MOP. In 5 healthy seasons he's ranked 4th, 5th, 11th , 6th, and 4th. The year he missed half a season he scored 111 fantasy points (which projected over a full season would have ranked him 9th). No matter what he's been productive, even if his ypc, TD, or rushing yards have dropped. I'm not sure why people constantly think the bottom is going to drop out . . .

 
300 carries

1200 yards

10 TD's

40 receptions

320 yards

2 TD's

His best years are behind him, but the Portis train continues to move along...

 
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Portis does not get enough love, especially from MOP. In 5 healthy seasons he's ranked 4th, 5th, 11th , 6th, and 4th. The year he missed half a season he scored 111 fantasy points (which projected over a full season would have ranked him 9th). No matter what he's been productive, even if his ypc, TD, or rushing yards have dropped. I'm not sure why people constantly think the bottom is going to drop out . . .
coaching. age. offensive line.But, personally, i don't think the bottom is going to fall out. I just think this will be a rough season for Mr. Portis. This year the coaching really should play a big role in Washington. Its a tough job to coach there.

 
Portis does not get enough love, especially from MOP. In 5 healthy seasons he's ranked 4th, 5th, 11th , 6th, and 4th. The year he missed half a season he scored 111 fantasy points (which projected over a full season would have ranked him 9th). No matter what he's been productive, even if his ypc, TD, or rushing yards have dropped. I'm not sure why people constantly think the bottom is going to drop out . . .
coaching. age. offensive line.But, personally, i don't think the bottom is going to fall out. I just think this will be a rough season for Mr. Portis. This year the coaching really should play a big role in Washington. Its a tough job to coach there.
AGE??? Portis is 26. Sure, he's played 6 seasons, but he's only a year older than Ryan Grant or Brandon Jacobs. He's actually YOUNGER than Willie Parker, Earnest Graham, and even Justin Fargas or DeShaun Foster.
 
Portis does not get enough love, especially from MOP. In 5 healthy seasons he's ranked 4th, 5th, 11th , 6th, and 4th. The year he missed half a season he scored 111 fantasy points (which projected over a full season would have ranked him 9th). No matter what he's been productive, even if his ypc, TD, or rushing yards have dropped. I'm not sure why people constantly think the bottom is going to drop out . . .
coaching. age. offensive line.But, personally, i don't think the bottom is going to fall out. I just think this will be a rough season for Mr. Portis. This year the coaching really should play a big role in Washington. Its a tough job to coach there.
Well, you've been down of Portis for as long as I can remember so I guess this season shouldn't be any surprise.
 
Portis does not get enough love, especially from MOP. In 5 healthy seasons he's ranked 4th, 5th, 11th , 6th, and 4th. The year he missed half a season he scored 111 fantasy points (which projected over a full season would have ranked him 9th). No matter what he's been productive, even if his ypc, TD, or rushing yards have dropped. I'm not sure why people constantly think the bottom is going to drop out . . .
coaching. age. offensive line.But, personally, i don't think the bottom is going to fall out. I just think this will be a rough season for Mr. Portis. This year the coaching really should play a big role in Washington. Its a tough job to coach there.
AGE??? Portis is 26. Sure, he's played 6 seasons, but he's only a year older than Ryan Grant or Brandon Jacobs. He's actually YOUNGER than Willie Parker, Earnest Graham, and even Justin Fargas or DeShaun Foster.
But he has so much mileage on him!! :hophead:
 
Portis does not get enough love, especially from MOP. In 5 healthy seasons he's ranked 4th, 5th, 11th , 6th, and 4th. The year he missed half a season he scored 111 fantasy points (which projected over a full season would have ranked him 9th). No matter what he's been productive, even if his ypc, TD, or rushing yards have dropped. I'm not sure why people constantly think the bottom is going to drop out . . .
coaching. age. offensive line.But, personally, i don't think the bottom is going to fall out. I just think this will be a rough season for Mr. Portis. This year the coaching really should play a big role in Washington. Its a tough job to coach there.
AGE??? Portis is 26. Sure, he's played 6 seasons, but he's only a year older than Ryan Grant or Brandon Jacobs. He's actually YOUNGER than Willie Parker, Earnest Graham, and even Justin Fargas or DeShaun Foster.
But he has so much mileage on him!! :wall:
Since you brought it up . . .There have been 15 players that amassed 1400 carries through age 26. Yes, Portis is one of them. Looks like some decent company . . .

1 Emmitt Smith 1951 (had 2458 more carries after age 26)

2 Walter Payton 1791 (had 2047 more carries after age 26)

3 Edgerrin James 1828 (has had 1021 carries since age 26 and counting)

4 Jerome Bettis 1807 (had 1672 more carries after age 26)

5 Barry Sanders 1763 (had 1299 carries after age 26)

6 Clinton Portis 1710

7 LaDainian Tomlinson 1702 (has had 663 carries since age 26 and counting)

8 Curtis Martin 1694 (had 1824 more carries after age 26)

9 Marshall Faulk 1642 (had 1194 carries after age 26)

10 Ricky Williams 1589 (has had 174 carries since age 26 and counting)

11 Rodney Hampton 1547 (had 277 carries after age 26)

12 Jamal Lewis 1508 (has had 612 carries since age 26 and counting)

13 Eric Dickerson 1465 (had 1531 carries after age 26)

14 Earl Campbell 1404 (has had 783 carries since age 26 and counting)

15 Ottis Anderson 1401 (had 1161 carries after age 26)

The only one that seemed to run out of steam entirely was Hampton. Most of the other guys had plenty in the tank (or are still getting plenty of carries).

 
Portis does not get enough love, especially from MOP. In 5 healthy seasons he's ranked 4th, 5th, 11th , 6th, and 4th. The year he missed half a season he scored 111 fantasy points (which projected over a full season would have ranked him 9th). No matter what he's been productive, even if his ypc, TD, or rushing yards have dropped. I'm not sure why people constantly think the bottom is going to drop out . . .
coaching. age. offensive line.But, personally, i don't think the bottom is going to fall out. I just think this will be a rough season for Mr. Portis. This year the coaching really should play a big role in Washington. Its a tough job to coach there.
AGE??? Portis is 26. Sure, he's played 6 seasons, but he's only a year older than Ryan Grant or Brandon Jacobs. He's actually YOUNGER than Willie Parker, Earnest Graham, and even Justin Fargas or DeShaun Foster.
But he has so much mileage on him!! :wall:
lol. the offensive line's age. Jansen (32), Thomas (32), Rabach (30), Kendall (34), Samuels (30). Plus the injury history of some of these players, Rabach most importantly. Hey, I didn't say rational, I was saying its my gut.

Plus the defensive LE Daniels (35) and LT Griffin (31) make me a little nervous.

Then add in the coaching change. Inexperience at QB and a new system for him (an d everyone) to learn.

Not saying he drops alot because he is still a stud. But its not the Redskins best off-season.

 
Portis does not get enough love, especially from MOP. In 5 healthy seasons he's ranked 4th, 5th, 11th , 6th, and 4th. The year he missed half a season he scored 111 fantasy points (which projected over a full season would have ranked him 9th). No matter what he's been productive, even if his ypc, TD, or rushing yards have dropped. I'm not sure why people constantly think the bottom is going to drop out . . .
coaching. age. offensive line.But, personally, i don't think the bottom is going to fall out. I just think this will be a rough season for Mr. Portis. This year the coaching really should play a big role in Washington. Its a tough job to coach there.
AGE??? Portis is 26. Sure, he's played 6 seasons, but he's only a year older than Ryan Grant or Brandon Jacobs. He's actually YOUNGER than Willie Parker, Earnest Graham, and even Justin Fargas or DeShaun Foster.
But he has so much mileage on him!! :confused:
lol. the offensive line's age. Jansen (32), Thomas (32), Rabach (30), Kendall (34), Samuels (30). Plus the injury history of some of these players, Rabach most importantly. Hey, I didn't say rational, I was saying its my gut.

Plus the defensive LE Daniels (35) and LT Griffin (31) make me a little nervous.

Then add in the coaching change. Inexperience at QB and a new system for him (an d everyone) to learn.

Not saying he drops alot because he is still a stud. But its not the Redskins best off-season.
3 things worry me:1) the o-line

2) Jason Campbell

3) the existence of Daniel Snyder

all 3 of those negatives were an issue last year, and Portis still was good. the o-line was in worse shape last year (due to injury), Campbell is a year more experienced, and Snyder didn't act like Snyder this offseason. Portis will be fine.

 
Portis does not get enough love, especially from MOP. In 5 healthy seasons he's ranked 4th, 5th, 11th , 6th, and 4th. The year he missed half a season he scored 111 fantasy points (which projected over a full season would have ranked him 9th). No matter what he's been productive, even if his ypc, TD, or rushing yards have dropped. I'm not sure why people constantly think the bottom is going to drop out . . .
coaching. age. offensive line.But, personally, i don't think the bottom is going to fall out. I just think this will be a rough season for Mr. Portis. This year the coaching really should play a big role in Washington. Its a tough job to coach there.
AGE??? Portis is 26. Sure, he's played 6 seasons, but he's only a year older than Ryan Grant or Brandon Jacobs. He's actually YOUNGER than Willie Parker, Earnest Graham, and even Justin Fargas or DeShaun Foster.
But he has so much mileage on him!! :confused:
lol. the offensive line's age. Jansen (32), Thomas (32), Rabach (30), Kendall (34), Samuels (30). Plus the injury history of some of these players, Rabach most importantly. Hey, I didn't say rational, I was saying its my gut.

Plus the defensive LE Daniels (35) and LT Griffin (31) make me a little nervous.

Then add in the coaching change. Inexperience at QB and a new system for him (an d everyone) to learn.

Not saying he drops alot because he is still a stud. But its not the Redskins best off-season.
Not really. Jim Zorn is running a West Coast offense similar to the one Clinton Portis played in his first two seasons in the league with Denver. Those were the same two seasons where he averaged over 100 yards rushing per game. I see good things for Portis this season. Especially if the right side of the offensive line can finally get healthy.
 
Portis does not get enough love, especially from MOP. In 5 healthy seasons he's ranked 4th, 5th, 11th , 6th, and 4th. The year he missed half a season he scored 111 fantasy points (which projected over a full season would have ranked him 9th). No matter what he's been productive, even if his ypc, TD, or rushing yards have dropped. I'm not sure why people constantly think the bottom is going to drop out . . .
coaching. age. offensive line.But, personally, i don't think the bottom is going to fall out. I just think this will be a rough season for Mr. Portis. This year the coaching really should play a big role in Washington. Its a tough job to coach there.
AGE??? Portis is 26. Sure, he's played 6 seasons, but he's only a year older than Ryan Grant or Brandon Jacobs. He's actually YOUNGER than Willie Parker, Earnest Graham, and even Justin Fargas or DeShaun Foster.
But he has so much mileage on him!! :thumbup:
lol. the offensive line's age. Jansen (32), Thomas (32), Rabach (30), Kendall (34), Samuels (30). Plus the injury history of some of these players, Rabach most importantly. Hey, I didn't say rational, I was saying its my gut.

Plus the defensive LE Daniels (35) and LT Griffin (31) make me a little nervous.

Then add in the coaching change. Inexperience at QB and a new system for him (an d everyone) to learn.

Not saying he drops alot because he is still a stud. But its not the Redskins best off-season.
Not really. Jim Zorn is running a West Coast offense similar to the one Clinton Portis played in his first two seasons in the league with Denver. Those were the same two seasons where he averaged over 100 yards rushing per game. I see good things for Portis this season. Especially if the right side of the offensive line can finally get healthy.
As well as Zorn is not changing the running game at all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3IRlGF0w7I

 
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Only negative here is the fact that he won't slide as far as he did last year, when he represented ridiculous, league-winning value for many of us. In three healthy years with the Redskins he has averaged 340 carries, and he was actually used more in the passing game last year than he has ever been before. Portis is as safe a first round selection as there is in fantasy football.

340 carries for 1400 yards, 45 catches for 375 yards, 12 total TDs.

 
Only negative here is the fact that he won't slide as far as he did last year, when he represented ridiculous, league-winning value for many of us. In three healthy years with the Redskins he has averaged 340 carries, and he was actually used more in the passing game last year than he has ever been before. Portis is as safe a first round selection as there is in fantasy football.340 carries for 1400 yards, 45 catches for 375 yards, 12 total TDs.
:confused:
 
Only negative here is the fact that he won't slide as far as he did last year, when he represented ridiculous, league-winning value for many of us. In three healthy years with the Redskins he has averaged 340 carries, and he was actually used more in the passing game last year than he has ever been before. Portis is as safe a first round selection as there is in fantasy football.340 carries for 1400 yards, 45 catches for 375 yards, 12 total TDs.
End thread.
 
I wrote about Portis every week last season in the Shark Pool. Week in and week out I was very underwhelmed by Portis and not many if any owners and folks form the boards tried to challenge me one time about the impact of Portis. But the fact is he finished #4 at the end of the season when all was said and done. His stats are not impressive from last season and I showcased it earlier by emphasizing what he did from weeks 1-14. The 1st 8 weeks of the season before he ripped off 192 against the rush defenseless Jets he put up rushing totals 0f 98, 69, 60, 72, 64, 43, and 27...these are simply not great numbers and it is reflective in his 3.9 yps. A far far cry from the 5.5 he avg in 2002 and 2003 in Denver.

In 2002 he finished with 289 pts, good for 5th

In 2003 he finished with 275 pts, good for 4th.

Last season he had 237 points, he finished 4th...so it was an off year for RB across the board. LT came back to Earth, LJ was injured, Ronnie Brown was tearing it up and also became injured. I just find that Portis did not make a strong impact for a lot of his owners in the majority of the regular FF season. If an owner had Brady, R.Moss, and Addai to go along with Portis...I'm sure he was fine. Portis had a couple of pretty strong games in the playoffs in weeks 15 and 16...but a lot of owners had Portis on their bench at various points last season.

He hasn't really been carrying teams on his back as of late. In 2005 he finished 6th with 245 pts...only 8 more points but he was a much better runner. He had games of 121, 103, 101, 144, then starting in week 13 he had 136/2TD, 105/TD, 112, 108/TD, and 112/2TD to close the season. That showed the kind of dominance that Portis has had in the past.

Portis has now carried it over 1,700 times even though he is only 26 years old...5th most carries over that period and I think the mileage is high.

Portis will see a new offense this season and hopefully better play from the QB position with a lot of new weapons on offense. You want stat predictions? OK.

14 games: 280 carries 1,120 yds, 8 TD, 35 receptions 250 yds...

1,370 total yds and 8 TD.

 
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I'm not sure what ridicuous value is but many posters make it seem like they took a flyer on Portis in the 17th round...give me a break. When I draft, I am planning on getting strong numbers from my 1st thru 6th round guys almost every time...this is a game of studs, a handful of players make all the difference, eveeyone seems so surprised they got 3.9 ypc out of Portis last season...his worst ever I might add....

I better stop and take shelter...

 
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MoP,

It seems you didn't really pay any attention to the points brought up in your earlier Portis thread. Why start a thread to argue your point if you're not going to honestly approach things with an open mind?? That's the whole point of this forum - to argue for/against players and be able to recognize when you're wrong. It truly seems as though you haven't listened to one point from your other thread and there were lots of them made.

Getting a top 5 rb in round three or four is TREMENDOUS value. He didn't blow up in most weeks but I'm not sure how you can honestly say getting a top 5 rb that late isn't a steal.

Each and every week you could find somebody to outperform the guy. Many weeks LT wasn't the top performer either. However, actually finding that rb BEFORE the games were played isn't easy for me. If you're more talented than me in that regard then so be it. But most people value consistency and the ability to set a player into the lineup and not have to worry about things until their bye week. It's the same reason Peyton and LT were the respective #1 picks at their position even though they had never actually finished as the top qb/rb.

If I'm allowed to pick players for my lineup after the week is played then I'd be in good shape.

As you pointed out, he got the worst ypc of his career last season. So you actually expect him to improve upon last year's numbers?

 
His stats are not impressive from last season and I showcased it earlier by emphasizing what he did from weeks 1-14. The 1st 8 weeks of the season before he ripped off 192 against the rush defenseless Jets he put up rushing totals 0f 98, 69, 60, 72, 64, 43, and 27...these are simply not great numbers and it is reflective in his 3.9 yps. A far far cry from the 5.5 he avg in 2002 and 2003 in Denver.
Touchdowns play a huge role in fantasy production. 43 yards vs. Arizona is garbage, but when you count his 2 touchdowns it suddenly sounds much, much better. I have no idea why you'd remove weeks 1-14 other than the fact it suits your argument. Touchdowns are always flukish so I'd understand your point better if he hadn't averaged 9 touchdowns per season with the Redskins. And that's counting the first year when he had his career lowest ypc and the team seemingly had no idea how to use him. I could always remove selective games to make him look great/terrible but that's just silly. We're not talking a one game anomoly...he was still a top rb excluding your games.
In 2002 he finished with 289 pts, good for 5thIn 2003 he finished with 275 pts, good for 4th.
So he's a consistent player and a near lock to finish in the top 10. This is a bad thing?
Portis has now carried it over 1,700 times even though he is only 26 years old...5th most carries over that period and I think the mileage is high.
Show me something showing career carries will negatively affect a rb of his age. As Yudkin's post showed, he's in the company of Edge, Emmitt...and those guys had several quality years left despite a huge number of career carries. If anything, it's shown he can handle a large workload.
14 games: 280 carries 1,120 yds, 8 TD, 35 receptions 250 yds...1,370 total yds and 8 TD.
Do you expect this team to be worse than last season?
 
Regarding the offense changing - what about the other 10 players? Whose calling the plays? Do any of them have experience with the system?

The West Coast Offense is a timing offense that flows from the QB. Steve Young said it took 3 years for a QB to learn and be effective in the WCO. How does that bode for this offense then?

And now you are asking this older offensive line to become zone blockers? Are they suddenly going to become "quick and athletic?" I honestly don't see any of those guys as relatively quick or athletic at this point in their careers. Does anyone know if they have any experience blocking in this system?

Regardless, I smell trouble. Maybe not disaster, but an off year for the team as a whole.

ETA - people who are looking for the same thing that he has done over the past few years need to realize you can scrap those stats right now. We don't even know if he is the goal line back yet.

I can't emphasize this enough - IT IS A NEW COACH AND A NEW SYSTEM IN WASHINGTON. You can't underestimate that.

Yes, Clinton is a stud. Yes, he had a good run with Gibbs, and especially with coach Saunders as OC.

But they are gone. The play calling is gone. The O-Line doesn't have the same coach (name slips my mind, but he was a terrific O-Line coach). These are huge issues. Does anyone remember what this offensive line was like before Saunders and Co got there?

 
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I'm not sure what ridicuous value is but many posters make it seem like they took a flyer on Portis in the 17th round...give me a break. When I draft, I am planning on getting strong numbers from my 1st thru 6th round guys almost every time...this is a game of studs, a handful of players make all the difference, eveeyone seems so surprised they got 3.9 ypc out of Portis last season...his worst ever I might add....I better stop and take shelter...
Is it possible to Ignore a poster, only when a particular word/name is involved ? :shrug:
 
Regarding the offense changing - what about the other 10 players? Whose calling the plays? Do any of them have experience with the system? The West Coast Offense is a timing offense that flows from the QB. Steve Young said it took 3 years for a QB to learn and be effective in the WCO. How does that bode for this offense then? And now you are asking this older offensive line to become zone blockers? Are they suddenly going to become "quick and athletic?" I honestly don't see any of those guys as relatively quick and athletic. Does anyone know if they have any experience blocking in this system?Regardless, I smell trouble. Maybe not disaster, but an off year for the team as a whole.
Zorn is calling the plays and the offense is changing, but only in the passing game. Granted this is a huge part of the WCO but the running game is exactly the same (terminology, plays, etc...). I suspect Zorn to rely heavily on the run until midway through the season.The WCO is a get open quick and get YAC. Al Saunders ran a timing offense. One positive is Campbell did run the WCO his senior year at Auburn where he was undefeated. Granted they had RB and CW but I think, initially, our team will be very similar in terms of the run/pass ratio.As I mentioned earlier our line has run zone plays the past four years, while he is getting older, Randy Thomas is a really underrated pulling guard who is great in space. We obviously aren't the Broncos but I think the entire o-line is very underrated in terms of athleticism.The team will face some trouble early on I'm sure, after all 3 out of the first 5 games are divisional games on the road. On the bright side for CP the right side of his line is back and with more added weapons at WR he should put up another phenomenal season.
 
Regarding the offense changing - what about the other 10 players? Whose calling the plays? Do any of them have experience with the system?

The West Coast Offense is a timing offense that flows from the QB. Steve Young said it took 3 years for a QB to learn and be effective in the WCO. How does that bode for this offense then?

And now you are asking this older offensive line to become zone blockers? Are they suddenly going to become "quick and athletic?" I honestly don't see any of those guys as relatively quick or athletic at this point in their careers. Does anyone know if they have any experience blocking in this system?

Regardless, I smell trouble. Maybe not disaster, but an off year for the team as a whole.

ETA - people who are looking for the same thing that he has done over the past few years need to realize you can scrap those stats right now. We don't even know if he is the goal line back yet.

I can't emphasize this enough - IT IS A NEW COACH AND A NEW SYSTEM IN WASHINGTON. You can't underestimate that.

Yes, Clinton is a stud. Yes, he had a good run with Gibbs, and especially with coach Saunders as OC.

But they are gone. The play calling is gone. The O-Line doesn't have the same coach (name slips my mind, but he was a terrific O-Line coach). These are huge issues. Does anyone remember what this offensive line was like before Saunders and Co got there?
Where do I start...As I mentioned to your initial post it's the exact same system in terms of the runing game.

If anything Gibbs held CP back from his true potential under Saunders. For god sakes Portis was putting on 20lbs in the off season to run HB gut and counters all the time when he is clearly a better runner in space.

Gibbs and Saunders are both gone, I wish we kept Saunders, but anything is better than Gibbs run-run-pass offense. The O-Line does

have the same coach, Joe Bugel. The offensive line was pretty good before Spurrier got here and single handedly dismantled it and gave away on of the best backs in the league at the time in Stephen Davis.

 
I'm not sure what ridicuous value is but many posters make it seem like they took a flyer on Portis in the 17th round...give me a break. When I draft, I am planning on getting strong numbers from my 1st thru 6th round guys almost every time...this is a game of studs, a handful of players make all the difference, eveeyone seems so surprised they got 3.9 ypc out of Portis last season...his worst ever I might add....I better stop and take shelter...
Is it possible to Ignore a poster, only when a particular word/name is involved ? :thumbup:
If the word is "Ministry", then yes.
 
I'm not sure what ridicuous value is but many posters make it seem like they took a flyer on Portis in the 17th round...give me a break. When I draft, I am planning on getting strong numbers from my 1st thru 6th round guys almost every time...this is a game of studs, a handful of players make all the difference, eveeyone seems so surprised they got 3.9 ypc out of Portis last season...his worst ever I might add....I better stop and take shelter...
Is it possible to Ignore a poster, only when a particular word/name is involved ? :thumbup:
If the word is "Ministry", then yes.
Ministry of Pain is one of the better posters this website has but there's something personal between he and Portis. If you want the whole story head over to the FFA and do a search for Ministry of Pain, Portis, shuke and potatoes. He needs to stop holding a grudge.
 
Regarding the offense changing - what about the other 10 players? Whose calling the plays? Do any of them have experience with the system?

The West Coast Offense is a timing offense that flows from the QB. Steve Young said it took 3 years for a QB to learn and be effective in the WCO. How does that bode for this offense then?

And now you are asking this older offensive line to become zone blockers? Are they suddenly going to become "quick and athletic?" I honestly don't see any of those guys as relatively quick or athletic at this point in their careers. Does anyone know if they have any experience blocking in this system?

Regardless, I smell trouble. Maybe not disaster, but an off year for the team as a whole.

ETA - people who are looking for the same thing that he has done over the past few years need to realize you can scrap those stats right now. We don't even know if he is the goal line back yet.

I can't emphasize this enough - IT IS A NEW COACH AND A NEW SYSTEM IN WASHINGTON. You can't underestimate that.

Yes, Clinton is a stud. Yes, he had a good run with Gibbs, and especially with coach Saunders as OC.

But they are gone. The play calling is gone. The O-Line doesn't have the same coach (name slips my mind, but he was a terrific O-Line coach). These are huge issues. Does anyone remember what this offensive line was like before Saunders and Co got there?
Where do I start...As I mentioned to your initial post it's the exact same system in terms of the runing game.

If anything Gibbs held CP back from his true potential under Saunders. For god sakes Portis was putting on 20lbs in the off season to run HB gut and counters all the time when he is clearly a better runner in space.

Gibbs and Saunders are both gone, I wish we kept Saunders, but anything is better than Gibbs run-run-pass offense. The O-Line does

have the same coach, Joe Bugel. The offensive line was pretty good before Spurrier got here and single handedly dismantled it and gave away on of the best backs in the league at the time in Stephen Davis.
IMO the outgoing coaches made some very good decisions without much fanfare. This a new honeymoon with new leaders regardless. My experience is more times than not the first year turns ugly one way or another. Sure, you now have a rookie head coach instead of hall of fame coach. I don't see any fall off there either. After all Gibbs was holding CP back, not protecting his team from a lack of talent on either of the lines.

And CP wasn't putting on 20 pounds because Gibbs knew the pounding the guy would take with no offensive line. (And BTW it still wasn't enough to keep him from getting hurt only carrying part of the load.) Now I can see where having CP 20 lbs lighter and running him more was the way to go. .

 
Regarding the offense changing - what about the other 10 players? Whose calling the plays? Do any of them have experience with the system?

The West Coast Offense is a timing offense that flows from the QB. Steve Young said it took 3 years for a QB to learn and be effective in the WCO. How does that bode for this offense then?

And now you are asking this older offensive line to become zone blockers? Are they suddenly going to become "quick and athletic?" I honestly don't see any of those guys as relatively quick or athletic at this point in their careers. Does anyone know if they have any experience blocking in this system?

Regardless, I smell trouble. Maybe not disaster, but an off year for the team as a whole.

ETA - people who are looking for the same thing that he has done over the past few years need to realize you can scrap those stats right now. We don't even know if he is the goal line back yet.

I can't emphasize this enough - IT IS A NEW COACH AND A NEW SYSTEM IN WASHINGTON. You can't underestimate that.

Yes, Clinton is a stud. Yes, he had a good run with Gibbs, and especially with coach Saunders as OC.

But they are gone. The play calling is gone. The O-Line doesn't have the same coach (name slips my mind, but he was a terrific O-Line coach). These are huge issues. Does anyone remember what this offensive line was like before Saunders and Co got there?
Where do I start...As I mentioned to your initial post it's the exact same system in terms of the runing game.

If anything Gibbs held CP back from his true potential under Saunders. For god sakes Portis was putting on 20lbs in the off season to run HB gut and counters all the time when he is clearly a better runner in space.

Gibbs and Saunders are both gone, I wish we kept Saunders, but anything is better than Gibbs run-run-pass offense. The O-Line does

have the same coach, Joe Bugel. The offensive line was pretty good before Spurrier got here and single handedly dismantled it and gave away on of the best backs in the league at the time in Stephen Davis.
IMO the outgoing coaches made some very good decisions without much fanfare. This a new honeymoon with new leaders regardless. My experience is more times than not the first year turns ugly one way or another. Sure, you now have a rookie head coach instead of hall of fame coach. I don't see any fall off there either. After all Gibbs was holding CP back, not protecting his team from a lack of talent on either of the lines.

And CP wasn't putting on 20 pounds because Gibbs knew the pounding the guy would take with no offensive line. (And BTW it still wasn't enough to keep him from getting hurt only carrying part of the load.) Now I can see where having CP 20 lbs lighter and running him more was the way to go. .
I agree with what you are saying that the first year will have some large obstacles as well as the fact that our outgoing coaches have a far better resume than our incoming one but our o-line was never a problem until last year when two of our starters went down with season ending injuries in week 1 and 2. Remember Ladell is not as good of a runner as he looked two years ago, after Portis's freak shoulder injury (remember he ran 40 yards downfield to make a TD saving tackle after Brunell threw an INT) the holes were huge.
 
Let me repost some of what I wrote week by week about Portis last season...I added the updates with results. I actually was pretty positive about him early on.

Week 2

Washington at Philly:

Philly allowed only 2.7 ypc and 46 yds on the ground against the Pack. I am betting we see a low score this week. Both team were involved in 16-13 affairs week 1.

Clinton Portis: Will be a tough match up this week but he looked great against Miami and he only needs a seam and he could be gone so I would keep him in your line up…if he is somehow your RB3, maybe you let him slide over to the bench but Portis can explode.

Update: Ranked 17th for the week, Portis had 76 yds and a TD. Guys that finished ahead of Portis included Jamal Lewis, Joseph Addai, Westbrook, MBIII, Rudi, Gore, FWP, McGahee…what are the odds you managed to dodge all those RB in head to head competition. Was Portis solid? Absolutely. Did he make a difference for owners? He didn’t lose the game, for sure.

Week 3

NY Giants at Washington:

The Giants believe it or not are only giving up 3.8 ypc. However they are also giving up an avg of 2 TD a week, and that is because they stink so bad against the pass that offenses get short fields to punch in those rushing TD.

Clinton Portis: Giving about 80 yds and a score a week right now. He played very little in the pre season and I expect him to get more and more touches as the season wears on. Nothing shows a reason not play him right now. He is #12 and most folks took him as an RB2 which he is filling very nicely.

Update: Ranked 8th for the week with 14/60/TD plus 6/37 thru the air, good strong week in PPR leagues.

Week 4…BYE

Week 5

Detroit at Washington:

Washington avg 4.0 ypc, they should be better really. And they grind out 134 a week but their passing game or lack thereof is really holding them back. Al Saunders is doing the best he can but Campbell is nothing like what Trent Green was a few years back and Green was able to punish defenses when they pinched up to stop the run…that doesn’t happen in Washington. The Lions can be run on so I look for a big workload on Sunday from the Washington ground game.

Clinton Portis: Reported to have a sprained knee. I will keep this simple. We have a 1:00 game, we will know his status on Sunday, however you have to think he will see a lighter load and Betts will see some increases in touches. In fact Betts might get the work between the 20s and Portis might get the work inside the 20s since Betts was abysmal at the end of the game against the Giants 2 weeks ago

Update: Ranked 26th…but he was apparently injured. 18/72, 2/18…he did total 90 yds with a sprained knee. I typically write these on Tue/Wed…it’s possible he was in the clear heading into the game…but I want to be fair, he was likely not 100%, lot of RB are not.

Week 6

Washington at Green Bay

Clinton Portis: He is putting up decent numbers, it just feels like we should get more from him. He is on pace for about 1,200 yds and 12 TD…those are pretty good. Just doesn’t cover up for any holes you have in your roster.

Update: Ranked 24th for the week with 20/64 and 3/25 thru the air…again we see close to100 total yds. He still for the 2nd week in a row is behind a bevy of RB that likely scored more than him in head to head action. LT, LJ, Addai, ADP, MJD, Westbrook, McGahee…some owners had to see some of those RB and likely lost a lot of ground on the guy they took a flier with in the 2nd/3rd round.

I’ll stop as you get the idea. In the 1st 6 weeks of the season he was OK a few weeks and while he can’t score on a bye week he did have little impact for owners in weeks 4-6 and likely this is when a lot of owners started to sour on him.

I guess I need to really clear the air on Portis…I am a huge Canesfan, almost everyone knows this, I have nothing personal against Clonton Portis but I have not witnessed the same back that had the ability to takeover games in quite some time. When he went down in the preseason in 2006, to me I have not seen the same back since then. Whether he has tendonitis knees, whatever the reason, I just don’t see the same explosivness. I would have to look it up but I don’t think Portis had a gain of more than 7 or 8 yds in about half of his games last season. I watched a lot of Portis last year…and I don’t think the board is being honest about what they saw. They are focused on stats in a vacuum and I can’t believe Portis is going as high as he is right now. I don’t have all the answers, I’m still working out my top5 for 2008, but I doubt seriously that Portis will be that group.

Good luck to all that grab him with a 1st round flyer.

 
Regarding the offense changing - what about the other 10 players? Whose calling the plays? Do any of them have experience with the system?

The West Coast Offense is a timing offense that flows from the QB. Steve Young said it took 3 years for a QB to learn and be effective in the WCO. How does that bode for this offense then?

And now you are asking this older offensive line to become zone blockers? Are they suddenly going to become "quick and athletic?" I honestly don't see any of those guys as relatively quick or athletic at this point in their careers. Does anyone know if they have any experience blocking in this system?

Regardless, I smell trouble. Maybe not disaster, but an off year for the team as a whole.

ETA - people who are looking for the same thing that he has done over the past few years need to realize you can scrap those stats right now. We don't even know if he is the goal line back yet.

I can't emphasize this enough - IT IS A NEW COACH AND A NEW SYSTEM IN WASHINGTON. You can't underestimate that.

Yes, Clinton is a stud. Yes, he had a good run with Gibbs, and especially with coach Saunders as OC.

But they are gone. The play calling is gone. The O-Line doesn't have the same coach (name slips my mind, but he was a terrific O-Line coach). These are huge issues. Does anyone remember what this offensive line was like before Saunders and Co got there?
Where do I start...As I mentioned to your initial post it's the exact same system in terms of the runing game.

If anything Gibbs held CP back from his true potential under Saunders. For god sakes Portis was putting on 20lbs in the off season to run HB gut and counters all the time when he is clearly a better runner in space.

Gibbs and Saunders are both gone, I wish we kept Saunders, but anything is better than Gibbs run-run-pass offense. The O-Line does

have the same coach, Joe Bugel. The offensive line was pretty good before Spurrier got here and single handedly dismantled it and gave away on of the best backs in the league at the time in Stephen Davis.
IMO the outgoing coaches made some very good decisions without much fanfare. This a new honeymoon with new leaders regardless. My experience is more times than not the first year turns ugly one way or another. Sure, you now have a rookie head coach instead of hall of fame coach. I don't see any fall off there either. After all Gibbs was holding CP back, not protecting his team from a lack of talent on either of the lines.

And CP wasn't putting on 20 pounds because Gibbs knew the pounding the guy would take with no offensive line. (And BTW it still wasn't enough to keep him from getting hurt only carrying part of the load.) Now I can see where having CP 20 lbs lighter and running him more was the way to go. .
I agree with what you are saying that the first year will have some large obstacles as well as the fact that our outgoing coaches have a far better resume than our incoming one but our o-line was never a problem until last year when two of our starters went down with season ending injuries in week 1 and 2. Remember Ladell is not as good of a runner as he looked two years ago, after Portis's freak shoulder injury (remember he ran 40 yards downfield to make a TD saving tackle after Brunell threw an INT) the holes were huge.
Its such a thin line in the NFL. If you have a weakness, the other teams are going to pile on. A crack becomes a hole. A hole becomes a gusher. A gusher brings down the dam. Its so hard to be successful in this league.

IMO Rabach is a warrior who IMO will never be whole from his injuries. I don't know, but I just don't think he can make it through a season. I have questions regarding other members of the offensive line also. This is a house of cards to me.

And I agree the line has looked better over the past 2 years, but I just think the glue is starting to crack here.

 
Regarding the offense changing - what about the other 10 players? Whose calling the plays? Do any of them have experience with the system?

The West Coast Offense is a timing offense that flows from the QB. Steve Young said it took 3 years for a QB to learn and be effective in the WCO. How does that bode for this offense then?

And now you are asking this older offensive line to become zone blockers? Are they suddenly going to become "quick and athletic?" I honestly don't see any of those guys as relatively quick or athletic at this point in their careers. Does anyone know if they have any experience blocking in this system?

Regardless, I smell trouble. Maybe not disaster, but an off year for the team as a whole.

ETA - people who are looking for the same thing that he has done over the past few years need to realize you can scrap those stats right now. We don't even know if he is the goal line back yet.

I can't emphasize this enough - IT IS A NEW COACH AND A NEW SYSTEM IN WASHINGTON. You can't underestimate that.

Yes, Clinton is a stud. Yes, he had a good run with Gibbs, and especially with coach Saunders as OC.

But they are gone. The play calling is gone. The O-Line doesn't have the same coach (name slips my mind, but he was a terrific O-Line coach). These are huge issues. Does anyone remember what this offensive line was like before Saunders and Co got there?
Where do I start...As I mentioned to your initial post it's the exact same system in terms of the runing game.

If anything Gibbs held CP back from his true potential under Saunders. For god sakes Portis was putting on 20lbs in the off season to run HB gut and counters all the time when he is clearly a better runner in space.

Gibbs and Saunders are both gone, I wish we kept Saunders, but anything is better than Gibbs run-run-pass offense. The O-Line does

have the same coach, Joe Bugel. The offensive line was pretty good before Spurrier got here and single handedly dismantled it and gave away on of the best backs in the league at the time in Stephen Davis.
IMO the outgoing coaches made some very good decisions without much fanfare. This a new honeymoon with new leaders regardless. My experience is more times than not the first year turns ugly one way or another. Sure, you now have a rookie head coach instead of hall of fame coach. I don't see any fall off there either. After all Gibbs was holding CP back, not protecting his team from a lack of talent on either of the lines.

And CP wasn't putting on 20 pounds because Gibbs knew the pounding the guy would take with no offensive line. (And BTW it still wasn't enough to keep him from getting hurt only carrying part of the load.) Now I can see where having CP 20 lbs lighter and running him more was the way to go. .
I agree with what you are saying that the first year will have some large obstacles as well as the fact that our outgoing coaches have a far better resume than our incoming one but our o-line was never a problem until last year when two of our starters went down with season ending injuries in week 1 and 2. Remember Ladell is not as good of a runner as he looked two years ago, after Portis's freak shoulder injury (remember he ran 40 yards downfield to make a TD saving tackle after Brunell threw an INT) the holes were huge.
Its such a thin line in the NFL. If you have a weakness, the other teams are going to pile on. A crack becomes a hole. A hole becomes a gusher. A gusher brings down the dam. Its so hard to be successful in this league.

IMO Rabach is a warrior who IMO will never be whole from his injuries. I don't know, but I just don't think he can make it through a season. I have questions regarding other members of the offensive line also. This is a house of cards to me.

And I agree the line has looked better over the past 2 years, but I just think the glue is starting to crack here.
Jansen? Rabach has only missed one game in the past four years. And last year was a gusher in terms of depth on the o-line. This year Stephon Heyer has a full year under his belt and played very well last year, Jason Fabini really turned it on down the stretch last year at guard, as well as Chad Rhinehart whom we drafted this year to eventually replace Pete Kendall at guard. Honestly the only real position of major weakness on the OL is under center. Hopefully Rabach's impressive streak continues...
 
Regarding the offense changing - what about the other 10 players? Whose calling the plays? Do any of them have experience with the system?

The West Coast Offense is a timing offense that flows from the QB. Steve Young said it took 3 years for a QB to learn and be effective in the WCO. How does that bode for this offense then?

And now you are asking this older offensive line to become zone blockers? Are they suddenly going to become "quick and athletic?" I honestly don't see any of those guys as relatively quick or athletic at this point in their careers. Does anyone know if they have any experience blocking in this system?

Regardless, I smell trouble. Maybe not disaster, but an off year for the team as a whole.
CP has put up remarkably consistant numbers over his career regardless of team or system. He handles one of the biggest workloads in the NFL and produces fantasy RB1 numbers. Change doesn't worry me as much with Portis, as he has proven himself able to produce regardless.
ETA - people who are looking for the same thing that he has done over the past few years need to realize you can scrap those stats right now. We don't even know if he is the goal line back yet.

I can't emphasize this enough - IT IS A NEW COACH AND A NEW SYSTEM IN WASHINGTON. You can't underestimate that.

Yes, Clinton is a stud. Yes, he had a good run with Gibbs, and especially with coach Saunders as OC.

But they are gone. The play calling is gone. The O-Line doesn't have the same coach (name slips my mind, but he was a terrific O-Line coach). These are huge issues. Does anyone remember what this offensive line was like before Saunders and Co got there?
And honestly, this is the biggest reach ever. When has Portis ever not been his team's goalline RB? He is clearly and by a large margin the best offensive player in Washington. He'll be featured everywhere, far more than almost every RB in the NFL.Go ahead and let him fall again. Personally, I'm expecting him to go in middle/late round one this year, and will be glad to get him there. If somehow he falls again and I can land him anywhere after that, I'll be ecstatic.

 
Portis will end up one of the top 7 RB's this year, barring significant injury. But since MOP posted about him every week you better listen to him and pass on Portis, and let some other poor sucker take him. :confused:

 
MoP,

Portis wasn't a difference maker last season. But who was? Moss, Brady, ADP...and? There are few difference makers in the game of football. By taking a top talent with your third or fourth round pick, that allows you to snag more top notch quality positions. So in effect, that makes him a difference maker.

 
MoP,Portis wasn't a difference maker last season. But who was? Moss, Brady, ADP...and? There are few difference makers in the game of football. By taking a top talent with your third or fourth round pick, that allows you to snag more top notch quality positions. So in effect, that makes him a difference maker.
OKThe player spotlight page for Portis should be an interesting read. I hope they let Tefertiller have a go at it...we have enough people in a landslide that feel portis is going to have a career year in '08.
 
MoP,Portis wasn't a difference maker last season. But who was? Moss, Brady, ADP...and? There are few difference makers in the game of football. By taking a top talent with your third or fourth round pick, that allows you to snag more top notch quality positions. So in effect, that makes him a difference maker.
OKThe player spotlight page for Portis should be an interesting read. I hope they let Tefertiller have a go at it...we have enough people in a landslide that feel portis is going to have a career year in '08.
Do you think he's a top-10 RB in redraft this year? How about dynasty? Where would you rank him?
 
MoP,Portis wasn't a difference maker last season. But who was? Moss, Brady, ADP...and? There are few difference makers in the game of football. By taking a top talent with your third or fourth round pick, that allows you to snag more top notch quality positions. So in effect, that makes him a difference maker.
OKThe player spotlight page for Portis should be an interesting read. I hope they let Tefertiller have a go at it...we have enough people in a landslide that feel portis is going to have a career year in '08.
Do you think he's a top-10 RB in redraft this year? How about dynasty? Where would you rank him?
In Dynasty? I am not even trying to get him in the H/A 1 and H/A 2 leagues...nor in the FIX league. In a redraft league I would be tempted to grab him if I was sitting there at the end of the 1st but i have a lot of RB I like better. Who has the crystal ball on Zorn's offense btw...would love to know as I saw him as a terrible pick for the SKins...they could have hired Zorn in December but waited till after the SB to try and land one of the better up and coming coaches and were turned down across the board. That should send a redflag to potential owners but it doesn't seem to be. portis has also steadily declined form 4.3 to 4.1 to 3.9 ypc last season. And he only had a run longer than 7 or 8 yds in maybe half of his games? where is the burst and breakaway speed. how many games did he total less than 75 yds rushing...I know everyone thinks I am crazy...and none of this will be settled till we hit the regular season. I just see no value taking him right after Addai, ADP(overrated), SJax, and LT come flying off the board.
 
Part of the confusion seems to be we keep arguing different things. I also don't believe he'll be a top 5 rb this season but I see no reason to think he won't be top 10. Top 10 is pretty good.

 

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