CB or Saftey (1 Viewer)

I just drafted a team that has 4 top CB and No Safeties.....

We play 2 DB.........

So I can start either.....

It seems to me that CB score more points...Or am I somehow mistaken about this????

Why do guys seem to think I need a safety ????(I was just offered one in a trade)..and Most teams have a split or More Safties than Corners.....

Do I even Need a saftey ?????? ..

Can someone explain the thinking to me..?????

There's a ton of good info on this in the pinned threads in the IDP Forum. Specifically look at the IDP FAQs that's pinned, and the links included inside. I'm a guy with minimal IDP experience but a lot of reading done, but I'll take a swing at an abbreviated answer for you...

In short, CBs may end up the year with higher point totals, but they have a lot of boom or bust games ( and years ) and don't have the consistency of a strong safety because they're not generally getting tackles. Tampa 2 teams will get more CB tackles, and rookie CBs tend to get picked on more as well, so their numbers are generally higher than the rest of their career.

A guick analogy is that CBs are like Chad Johnson or Kevin Curtis. They'll get their points by the end of the year, but they'll cause you some headaches with 1 point games in the process.

I'm not sure safeties are as much better as people are making out, but you'll have a lot more guessing to do on a week to week basis and you'll probably want to increase your numbers from just those 4 guys to give a few more options. I think you can get by from a scoring perspective with only corners, as the gap isn't as wide as it used to be, but it will likely cause you some heartburn.

One possible evaluation of the positions ( and there are many others ) from the IDP forum is below, but this is little more than a generalization, and the talent of the player is **very** important.

1. Normal SS

2. Cover2 CB

3. Normal FS

4. Rookie CB

5. Cover2 S

6. Normal CB

I'm going to move this into the IDP Forum proper. It's a great general question for review every so often and should stimulate a little more discussion -- although Prankster's post was excellent.

Be sure to flip through the FAQ and other pinned threads. As Prankster said, there's a lot of valuable information in there for newbies and vets alike.

Oh, and to FBG!!!

Thanks guys..Great to be here...

anyone else????

Analogy time.....

Safety is to CB....

as

LB is to DE....

as

RB is to stud WR.

Basically the formers will get you comparable points to the latters over the course of a season (depending on scoring method of course) but the first position will be more consistent on a weekly basis.

S and LB (especially SS, MLB and WLB) will get several tackles a game, while CBs will be boom or bust based on INTs / TD returns / big opposition passing offenses. Some good CBs may even not get thrown against and won't have the chance of getting to make a play.

Same thing on offense for RB - they touch the ball often and can score more readily. WRs need targets and catches and opportunities to score. 10 targets is a ton, while 20-30 carries is easily attainable for a feature RB.

Last analogy - baseball. You have your solid players "up the middle" (CF, SS, 2B, C) and they get a lot of action / touches but may not be your fantasy studs. The other spots can have monster games, but not every game will be a monster.

I'll throw in my

The zone corners are pretty much right there with the safeties. When looking at safeties, I wouldn't pay as much attention to the strong/free thing as I would their abilities. You want the SS who has adequate coverage skills, and a FS who is a good tackler and strong in run support. Teams who are fortunate enough to have both safties with this ability, well ... it doesn't matter too much which posiiton they play.

Take note what Jacksonville is planning on doing this year with CB Brian Williams (convert to SS). This gives them 3 CB's on the field at all time, which is a huge help facing multiple receiver sets and these athletic pass catching TE's.

In the past teams have converted corners to FS, now ... teams appear willing to sacrifice some size and run support, for better coverage skills at the SS position.

CPD said:

I just drafted a team that has 4 top CB and No Safeties.....We play 2 DB.........So I can start either.....It seems to me that CB score more points...Or am I somehow mistaken about this????Why do guys seem to think I need a safety ????(I was just offered one in a trade)..and Most teams have a split or More Safties than Corners.....Do I even Need a saftey ?????? ..Can someone explain the thinking to me..?????

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Your leagues basic scoring system is important in making an informed decision.

Its is standerd IDP scoring...

Thanks to everyone for all there input

It is also important to understand what you mean by stud db.

Is it a champ bailey or terrence newman type that doesn't get thrown at a lot but makes a lot out of the opportunity?

Or is it the rookie starter that everyone is going to test so he'll rack up tackles and passes defended fast?

There could be a big difference in consistency between the two while they end up with similar points at the end of the year

CPD said:

Its is standerd IDP scoring...

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This is personal preference, but in any scoring systems other than big play weighted scoring, I generally prefer DBs who get a lot of tackles and do so consistently. I don't care whether they play CB or safety. In general, an in-the-box SS is my preference, followed by a CB who plays in a cover-2 defense, such as Winfield or Tillman.

I find DB to be an easy position to fill in most years and also they seem to fluctuate more than the other IDP positions.

Great info, as usual, from the vets.

I always target a top tier SS first and foremost. As can be seen from this past season, CB's are becoming increasingly better plays and though not typically as consistent, some have outscored the top S's.

For me, I prefer the tackling consistency of a talented SS. My guy might not end the season in the top 5 DB's, but he'll be in the top 20 and will be more consistent than most.

As Anthony inquired, the scoring format is very important to consider in the discussion however. My league is tackle heavy and lends to my preference. If your league is more big play oriented, a cover-2 corner with ball skills might be an even better play.

CPD said:

Its is standerd IDP scoring...

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What's that?

massraider said:

What's that?

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He's a Zealots guy.

What I like about taking guys with high tackles is that at 1 PPT, you're pretty much guaranteed 4-5 points per week on average alone depending on the player.

The ability for turnovers has too many variables from season to season to really bank on and as others have said, safeties tend to tackle more (although this is changing) because they are allowed to "roam" the field rather than being restricted to one side.

It does seem like the "tackle" range for stud safeties/cornerbacks starts around 60 and moves up (Roughly 4 per game if 16 played) but I would also be aware of defensive coordinator changes and not only the packages they are bringing in, but what they are asking of their cornerbacks/safeties. If a coach is talking about how he wants his corners to constantly be swarming to the ball (or safeties to play up in the box) then it's worth keeping an eye on those guys.

Also, most running plays go up the middle so it's easier for safeties (and linebackers) to make the tackle rather than the cornerback who's off to the side playing the receiver first.

Enderdog said:

massraider said:

What's that?

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He's a Zealots guy.

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Gotcha.Well, in Zealots, last year, here were the top 20 finishers:1. 89. McGee, Terrence BUF CB 2. 94. Trufant, Marcus SEA CB 3. 104. Clements, Nate SFO CB 4. 121. Bodden, Leigh CLE CB 5. 124. Atogwe, Oshiomogho STL S 6. 126. Harper, Roman NOS S 7. 130. Marshall, Richard CAR CB 8. 144. Hall, Deangelo ATL CB 10. 153. Hood, Roderick ARI CB 11. 161. Cromartie, Antonio SDC CB 12. 165. Harris, Chris CAR S 13. 171. Taylor, Ike PIT CB 14. 180. Hobbs, Ellis NEP CB 15. 183. Jones, Sean CLE S 16. 184. Woodson, Charles GBP CB 17. 186. Knight, Sammy JAC S 18. 187. Griffin, Cedric MIN CB 19. 190. Hart, Clinton SDC S 20. 196. Sanders, Bob IND SPretty even split, more CBs than one may expect, and not lot of Cover 2 guys.in Zealots, don't draft DB high, and don't blow a lot of money on them. And don't take up a lot of roster spots either.

DawnBTVS said:

It does seem like the "tackle" range for stud safeties/cornerbacks starts around 60 and moves up (Roughly 4 per game if 16 played).

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Lots of good information in this thread already. I'll make sure it ends up in the FAQ.I won't belabor the "look for secondary players with the willingness to support the run and the opportunity within the scheme to capitalize and with the ball skills to add big plays" mantra. I think a lot of the posts in this thread and others in the FAQ provide the details of how to find those guys.I do think it's worth looking at the above part of DawnBTVS' post more closely, though. Magaw started a great thread about using splits earlier this offseason, highlighting a very good one to look deeper into a box score line to get the most pertinent information. It seems simple enough, but for those of us that use tiers to rank and draft IDPs, considering tackle ranges (and other stats) is critically important to teasing out which players may be on the verge of breaking out and which players may have just been one season wonders.With the usual all-important caveat that scoring system matters, I tend to look for CBs with the potential to hit the following plateaus:70+ solo tackles: If you find a corner that can consistently hit this number, you've almost always got a top 20 IDP option. Secondary players tend to bunch around the 60 solo tackle plateau -- those that add a bunch of big plays or assists end up toward the top of that tier, but those peripheral stats are riskier to project. I'd prefer a slightly higher plateau for the safeties due to the lesser big play likelihood.15 passes defended: Let your competition fuss over the sack and interception numbers. There's too much variance to feel comfortable projecting a player for 5+ INTs. But if you find a corner that consistently projects in the upper teens in PD numbers, you've got a guy who's close to the action frequently and has the ball skills to make plays. Those are the players who are good risks to end up in the upper echelon of INT guys. But, if they don't finish the play, you're still getting the benefit of the PD numbers. Since many leagues give equal points for solos and PD, a consistent 15 PD/season player is likely to hold his consistency. Similarly, you should be looking for safeties with the ability to consistently approach 10 PDs to help limit the tackle variance and provide some additional upside.To illustrate the point, when I'm looking for potential corner sleepers outside the usual Cover-2 guys, I'm looking for a high PD number (full season or second half split) with a low INT number. Guys like Antonio Cromartie with 18 PD aren't getting by anybody with a fat 10 INT contributing to that PD number.In 2008, if you're looking for a guy to grab as your CB2 or CB3 (or DB4-5) with big upside, consider the following options:Johnathan Joseph 2006 20 PD/0 INT in limited time2007 15 PD/4 INT (including 3 INT/11 PD in the second half after recovering from a foot problem)Fred Bennett2007 12 PD/3 INT in the second half after earning starting snapsFakhir Brown2007 15 PD/4 INT in sporadic playing timeAnd you might want to be leery of a guy like Eric Wright, who despite the rookie corner bump, finished with only 11 PDs despite a big solo tackle season. Or Kelvin Hayden with 10 PD.Learn the schemes and skill sets, but watch those plateaus, too.

massraider said:

Enderdog said:

massraider said:

What's that?

Click to expand...

He's a Zealots guy.

Click to expand...

Gotcha.Well, in Zealots, last year, here were the top 20 finishers:

1. 89. McGee, Terrence BUF CB

2. 94. Trufant, Marcus SEA CB

3. 104. Clements, Nate SFO CB

4. 121. Bodden, Leigh CLE CB

5. 124. Atogwe, Oshiomogho STL S

6. 126. Harper, Roman NOS S

7. 130. Marshall, Richard CAR CB

8. 144. Hall, Deangelo ATL CB

10. 153. Hood, Roderick ARI CB

11. 161. Cromartie, Antonio SDC CB

12. 165. Harris, Chris CAR S

13. 171. Taylor, Ike PIT CB

14. 180. Hobbs, Ellis NEP CB

15. 183. Jones, Sean CLE S

16. 184. Woodson, Charles GBP CB

17. 186. Knight, Sammy JAC S

18. 187. Griffin, Cedric MIN CB

19. 190. Hart, Clinton SDC S

20. 196. Sanders, Bob IND S

Pretty even split, more CBs than one may expect, and not lot of Cover 2 guys.

in Zealots, don't draft DB high, and don't blow a lot of money on them. And don't take up a lot of roster spots either.

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I've been holding off for months to let things sit and get the most timely discussion for redrafters, but it's almost time to start a thread about the apparent fall of the stud safety and the rise of the non-Cover-2 corner. We hinted at it during a discussion of last season's DB stats back in February, but there's a legitimate argument that last season was a major anomaly. If the prevailing frame of mind from late 2007 ("I'm bloody sick of these inconsistent, highly rated DBs") is still there this summer, I believe that there will be stupid amounts of value for risk tolerant IDP owners this year.

The Cover-2 corner point is well made. It's worth noting, however, that the mainstays of the Tampa-2 (Cover-2) crowd (Ronde Barber, Charles Tillman, Antoine Winfield, etc) are/were aging, injured and/or used differently last year. I'm willing to wager that the Tillman, Winfield, Jackson, Griffin, Flowers, Taylor, Bodden, McGee crowd are much better bets to crack the top 25 this season than Hood, Hobbs, Hall group. Should be still safe to bet on the Bailey, Trufant, Clements, Marshall group. It'll be very interesting to see in which group Cromartie falls.

Jene Bramel said:

And you might want to be leery of a guy like Eric Wright, who despite the rookie corner bump, finished with only 11 PDs despite a big solo tackle season.

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He seemed to be injured a lot (I know, I had him) but I agree he is more likely the beneficiary of "Let's pick on the rookie" game planning than a long term stud.

In my scoring scheme (non-Zealots) here's how the Top 15 last year finished sorted by FPPG at their position (DB).

Scoring: 1 PPT, Sacks*3, INT*3, FF*3, FR*3

Note: I included a minimum 4 tackles per game for the secondary to look at consistency. This is also excluding defensive safeties and TDs.

1: Adrian Wilson (SS) 7.63 and 5 (77)

2: Chris Harris (FS) 7.47 and 5 (76)

3: Gibril Wilson (SS) 7.15 and 6 (78 in 13 games)

4: Antoine Winfield (CB) 7.00 and 6 (58 in 10 games)

5: Brian Dawkins (FS) 6.63 and 5 (76)

6: Leigh Bodden (CB) 6.44 and 5 (76)

7: Roman Harper (SS) 6.38 and 5 (75)

8: Nate Clements (CB) 6.31 and 5 (77)

9: Jermaine Phillips (SS) 6.27 and 5 (70)

10: Marcus Trufant (CB) 6.19 and 5 (78)

11: Bob Sanders (FS) 6.03 and 5 (71)

12: Sammy Knight (SS) 5.88 and 5 (79)

13: Madieu Williams (FS) 5.85 and 4 (58 in 13 games)

14: Oshiomogho Atogwe (FS) 5.81 and 4 (66)

15: Cedric Griffin (CB) 5.69 and 5 (82)

16: Michael Lewis (SS) 5.66 and 5 (74)

Several things can be noted...

1: All 16 players had over 5.65 FPPG in this system and only 2 of them averaged less than 5 tackles per game.

2: Atogwe was the only player with less than 70 tackles. This ties into the point made by Jene and Madieu Williams extrapolated would equal 71 tackles. Antoine Winfield would extrapolate to 93 tackles.

3: Safeties dominate the list with corners only making 5 appearances.

As an aside for comparison here are a few top INT defensive backs.

- Antonio Cromartie (CB): 4.69 and 2 (39)

- Ed Reed (FS): 3.31 and 2 (29)

- Anthony Henry (CB): 3.62 and 2 (29 in 13 games)

- Asante Samuel (CB): 3.69 and 3 (41)

If you want consistency tackling wise, it would seem that you want a range of 4-5 tackles per game so over a 16 game season that would be 64 - 80 tackles on the year (solo).

Just to add couple of things for my situation..I relize this thread may/is breaking off into differant area's...

By the way...Thanks to evryone...I am learning allot in this thread....

In the start up draft I took...

Clements

Trufant

C.Griffin

Revis

Then took Rogers-Cromartie with may last Rookie draft pick...

Acording to an earler post made here.... I have ...2 top 5 DB scorers ...in Zealots scoring....followed up by a top 20 guy..

One thing I did look for ...was guys who make tackles over INT,s....My thinking being..tackles are allot more consisitent....

With This set of CB's....do guys think I should trade for a Saftie...or should I be ok with my high tackleing corners...

Thanks again

CPD said:

Just to add couple of things for my situation..I relize this thread may/is breaking off into differant area's...By the way...Thanks to evryone...I am learning allot in this thread....In the start up draft I took...ClementsTrufantC.GriffinRevisThen took Rogers-Cromartie with may last Rookie draft pick...Acording to an earler post made here.... I have ...2 top 5 DB scorers ...in Zealots scoring....followed up by a top 20 guy..One thing I did look for ...was guys who make tackles over INT,s....My thinking being..tackles are allot more consisitent....With This set of CB's....do guys think I should trade for a Saftie...or should I be ok with my high tackleing corners...Thanks again

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It's best to keep these team-specific questions in the IDP AC Forum as we're trying to keep the main forum strategy and news based. I think you've answered your own question, however. You've got three guys (at least) with a chance to finish in the top 25. If you can get another DB (safety or corner) with higher or more sure upside, you should do it. If you have a couple of trades in mind, post them (with your scoring system) in a new thread in the AC Forum and you'll get more specific takes.