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Reggie Bush (1 Viewer)

Holy Schneikes

Footballguy
Reggie is a guy you need to move if you can, and I mean before the season starts or early into it. Here's why:

Reggie was the worst starting RB in the NFL last year and it wasn't even that close. When you consider everything and take it all into account, Reggie gave the least bang for your buck of any RB out there FROM AN NFL PERSPECTIVE. More on that later.

However, because he was very high draft pick and his team has a TON invested in him and had/have trouble going away from him to more effective players. He still had lots of opportunities last year and is likely to get a fair amount this year (for a while at least). He also had a HUGE amount of hype coming into the NFL and people love college highlights on youtube. So he still has value in the FF community because people feel like he will eventually turn it around, or that the team simply CAN'T go away from him.

CLASSIC sell high if you don't believe he will turn it around, even if his current value isn't at the "peak" you could have gotten for him. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses.

Back to Bush the NFL running back (and why I don't think he will turn it around). For those who are familiar with DVOA, Bush was the worst rusher in the NFL last year by that standard. Basically, it means that you consider down and distance, and the defense the back is facing, how did that back in that situation compared all of the other backs in the league is those SAME BASIC SITUATIONS. When you compile all of that, guys like LT, Westbrook, Barber, Addai, Peterson etc came out on top. Bush was dead last at -26.7%, meaning he got -26.7% fewer yards than the average back in the same situations. The three guys above him on the list, all around -20% were Rudi Johnson, Cedric Benson, and Deshaun Foster. Yes, he was significantly worse than all three of those studs.

So we start there. But the comeback is always, "Yeah, but he's a threat to take it to the house so defenses have to plan for that.". The problem with that is that he DOESN'T take it to the house and everybody knows it at this point. His longest run last year? 22 yards. His longest reception? 25 yards. That's over 130 touches. Is the problem he can't break tackles? Is it that his vision is poor? Is his actual shake-and-bake not really as good as advertised? Dunno, don't care. "He's scaring defense and helping his team that way." just doesn't fly anymore.

The other thing you often hear (you used to hear it more, but even a lot of his supporters have backed off of this a bit), is that defenses are keying him. Huh? Why? It's not because he's burning them (stats tell you that). It's not because the passing game sucks (in fact, quite the opposite is true). So why would defenses go out of there way to game plan for the worst overall rusher in the NFL? For a while, you could kind of FAKE back up that statement with the THREAT of his big-play ability, but at this point, he really hasn't had any big plays in two years, so why would a team be afraid of it? He's not at USC anymore.

OK, so we know he gets less yards than he should by far and we know he isn't breaking big plays, so what are his true strengths? Ball security? Is he at least a sure thing when it comes to all-important turnover ratio? Uh-oh, you guessed it - he is THE WORST IN THE LEAGUE in fumbles per touch (or per carry, or however else you slice it). So not only is he not getting yards or scaring defenses, he's coughing the ball up.

"But WAIT, there is still hope! His RECEIVING is what saves him and gives value to his team!". OK, let's look at that. Going back to DVOA, but for receiving (as a RB) instead of rushing, surely he will stand out. Would you believe (probably not, based on the hype) that when you look at opportunities and compare him to other backs, Bush is below average as a receiver out of the backfield? He's not as bad at that as he is at running the ball, but he still FAR from outstanding. Has catch percentage is average at best. His YPC are terrible. DVOA isn't perfect here, but when you actually look at results (however you want to do that), Bush really isn't dominating through the air either. What DOES he have? Opportunities and lots of them. It's almost as if NO coaches are saying, well, Bush can't run, let's at least try to throw to him to see what we can get from him.

Now having gone through all that, the BIG question is this: Will NO continue to try to get Reggie the ball? Because if they DO, he will continue to put up decent fantasy stats if only because of the vast number of chances he gets. My belief is that his draft status and the team's investment in him will only carry him so far, and they will reach the breaking point with him fairly soon. That investment is big, and it IS hard for the team to basically just say, "hey - we blew it with that pick and we have to move on", but the rest of the team is too good to just let Bush drag them down forever.

Finally, to this point, it's REALLY hard to argue against the fact that Bush has been a very bad RB overall. But some folks will STILL say he's young and could still turn it around. And that is true. He IS young, and he does have a chance to do that because at SOME point he displayed a lot of talent. But really, what are the odds? How many backs have looked as bad as Bush has and then gone on to great (or even mediocre) careers? When I went back and looked around a little bit, the ONLY guy I noticed that started off very slowly and became a real force was Tiki Barber. So there is that hope. But even Tiki wasn't nearly AS bad, and he was one amongst a TON of guys who started bad and stayed bad, so the deck is stacked against you if you want to hang on to Bush.

So for my part, I have given up on him and I just got rid of him in the only league I had him. You can still get pretty nice value out of him right now. But if he gets truly BENCHED in the middle or near the end of this season, you will NEVER get anything substantial out of him. Take your lumps, find a lifeboat and get off of the Titantic, you will thank me later.

 
Guy averaged 16.5 ppg in my league last year. Considered somewhat of a down year for him.

I hope the rest of my league thinks like you as I'll have no problem taking him this year.

 
I completely agree. Sell him at some point this season because I don't believe his value will get any higher.
So AnyBob, what do you project for Bush? :confused: But seriously, I was really high on him...but it is fading little by little. I can not yet give up on a guy with all that talent. I kind of equate that to Oliver Perez of the Mets, he'll show you just enough to make you believe in him. If I were a betting man, I'd say you're more right than wrong OP.ETA: Crap, it was MoP that didn't do projections :lmao: Nonetheless, my above comments are for non-PPR; PPR is a different ball of wax - plenty of value.
 
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Guy plays in a high octane offense, is a pass catching stud out of the backfield, although his ypc are not very high, plays ona team with Deuce(2 ACLs torn now), and Pierre Thomas who is largely unknown...what is not to like? We all know he can't carry the ball 20 times a game but he can sure knock in 1,200-1,500 total yds, catch upwards of 75-80 balls which in PPR leagues is pretty darn good, and probably knock in 6-8 TD minimum...but I don't do projections so I'll refrain.

 
Welcome to the non-Reggie Bush Bandwagon.Population: Everyone But You Up Until Now... :doh:
Shoulda waited a bit before this one. ;) The believers are already jumping in.Also, part of the reason for my post is that Bush is still ranked as the #14 dynasty RB by the experts on this site. That's a #1 starter in larger leagues. There are a LOT of guys below him I'd rather have.
 
If you wanted to sell him high you would've traded the pick when he was a rookie. His value was never higher than it was then. Selling now is not selling high. Selling after he has two seasons where he can't break the 600 yard mark rushing is not selling high.

Now, if your league gives points for how many commercials a guy does then he's :doh:

 
Welcome to the non-Reggie Bush Bandwagon.Population: Everyone But You Up Until Now... :doh:
There's still room on the bandwagon for the other 3rd year RB from cali. The MJD bandwagon is filling up fast so make sure to grab a seat while you can. I'll open the door for you as I'm driving that bus!!!
 
I completely agree. Sell him at some point this season because I don't believe his value will get any higher.
So AnyBob, what do you project for Bush? :unsure: But seriously, I was really high on him...but it is fading little by little. I can not yet give up on a guy with all that talent. I kind of equate that to Oliver Perez of the Mets, he'll show you just enough to make you believe in him. If I were a betting man, I'd say you're more right than wrong OP.
I haven't figured out what I'd project for Bush. If this is a redraft league or a ppr then I think it'd be a different matter. I really don't see an issue for him this year - he's still going to get most of the work, if only by default. In dynasty leagues I see little reason to be high on the guy. I believe talent will always shine. Bush is still getting pt because he was a high pick. Take another guy that was drafted the same year - MJD. Even if he had been a walk on player, he'd still be getting carries. Because he's shown talent. If Bush had been taken in a later round I don't believe he'd be receiving many carries. I agree with the OP that the Saints won't stick with him forever. For as much talent as he showed at USC, he hasn't shown much of anything in the NFL. Every now and then he shows a hint of something but it's been two years. I'd gamble that what we've seen is a trend that will continue.
 
If you wanted to sell him high you would've traded the pick when he was a rookie. His value was never higher than it was then. Selling now is not selling high. Selling after he has two seasons where he can't break the 600 yard mark rushing is not selling high. Now, if your league gives points for how many commercials a guy does then he's :unsure:
It's not selling at its highest but it's still selling high if you believe he's only going to continue going downhill.
 
How can a guy who's value has never been lower be a sell high canidate? What could you possibly dupe an owner into giving you that would be considered a good trade for this guy? Sell high in a PPR maybe but, I'd say at this point your not losing any value keeping him and he may turn out like he was his first year.

 
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How can a guy who's value has never been lower be a sell high canidate? What could you possibly dupe an owner into giving you that would be considered a good trade for this guy? Sell high in a PPR maybe but, I'd say at this point your not losing any value keeping him and he may turn out like he was his first year.
Despite my point above, if the premise is that he will continue to drop then selling him now would at least recoup some of the losses if you drafted him 1st overall in a dynasty draft. If a stock was $100 when it opened in a IPO and 2 years later it's $50 and you're sure it's going to drop more then selling at $50 is not selling high in comparison to what you initially paid for it but it will be higher than what you expect it to be valued at in the future. The OP's point is that Bush is just going to get worse as times go on....Selling him now when most have him ranked in the 12-15 range might yield a legit 12-15 guy at RB and at the end of the year you will have a tidy profit if Bush finishes at say the 25th RB in 2008.

 
How can a guy who's value has never been lower be a sell high canidate? What could you possibly dupe an owner into giving you that would be considered a good trade for this guy? Sell high in a PPR maybe but, I'd say at this point your not losing any value keeping him and he may turn out like he was his first year.
Despite my point above, if the premise is that he will continue to drop then selling him now would at least recoup some of the losses if you drafted him 1st overall in a dynasty draft. If a stock was $100 when it opened in a IPO and 2 years later it's $50 and you're sure it's going to drop more then selling at $50 is not selling high in comparison to what you initially paid for it but it will be higher than what you expect it to be valued at in the future. The OP's point is that Bush is just going to get worse as times go on....Selling him now when most have him ranked in the 12-15 range might yield a legit 12-15 guy at RB and at the end of the year you will have a tidy profit if Bush finishes at say the 25th RB in 2008.
Exactly right. It's not his peak, but my point is his value is a lot higher right now than it will be next year (or ever again). Look at all of the guys who still think he's going to put up great numbers. Selling at peak is great, but we've missed that boat. Right now, people still believe. Sell to them.Also, I should have mentioned in that ridiculously long post, that I was talking primarily dynasty.

 
Reggie was the worst starting RB in the NFL last year and it wasn't even that close.
I think Bears fans will argue with you about Cedric Benson there.............
Chicago media - not a lot to like in Chicago sports. Shows in the negative propaganda. No patience in a big market.New Orleans media - nothing can be worse than Katrina. They needed a golden boy. Will wait longer than they should.Fans believe the media.
 
Finally, to this point, it's REALLY hard to argue against the fact that Bush has been a very bad RB overall. But some folks will STILL say he's young and could still turn it around. And that is true. He IS young, and he does have a chance to do that because at SOME point he displayed a lot of talent. But really, what are the odds? How many backs have looked as bad as Bush has and then gone on to great (or even mediocre) careers? When I went back and looked around a little bit, the ONLY guy I noticed that started off very slowly and became a real force was Tiki Barber. So there is that hope. But even Tiki wasn't nearly AS bad, and he was one amongst a TON of guys who started bad and stayed bad, so the deck is stacked against you if you want to hang on to Bush.

Off the top of my head...

Tiki Barber

Thomas Jones

Garrison Hearst

O.J. Simpson

Ricky Bell

DVOA is a nice-looking stat, but how does it correlate to what could be correctable issues in a player's running style? You're not accounting for a player's ability to grow. It is disturbing that Bush has pressed too hard to make a big play in the NFL compared to surprisingly good downhill runs in college in similar situations. Can't say his value is all that high though. Last year it peaked. I definitely fell for the hype. I'm not ready to pack it in on Bush yet. Not that I'll be clamoring for him this year (not that I'll need to reach for him either)

 
I'm taking a wait and see approach with Reggie. I don't think he'll ever be the Faulk type player some people expected, but I'm not really convinced he's garbage either. He's a unique player because of his pedigree, his playing style, and the fact that a lot of opposing teams probably gave him considerable extra attention that someone like Ryan Grant or Joseph Addai has never faced. I don't think you can just look at the YPC and say he sucks in this case. Not yet anyway.

I still think he's a good player to own in PPR leagues. In non-PPR he might be a sell candidate depending on what you can get.

 
I was stunned at how much worse Bush looked in 07 than in 06. And I can't help but think it was somewhat injury related. The burst & acceleration just wasn't there. While I don't think he is going to be a worthless bust, at this point it's highly doubtful he'll ever reach the lofty expectations foisted upon him. (At least not in NO.)

In non-PPR he is now and will always be a borderline RB2. But in my PPR, he was a lower-tier RB1 with upside and I don't expect that to change.

 
I was stunned at how much worse Bush looked in 07 than in 06. And I can't help but think it was somewhat injury related. The burst & acceleration just wasn't there. While I don't think he is going to be a worthless bust, at this point it's highly doubtful he'll ever reach the lofty expectations foisted upon him. (At least not in NO.)

In non-PPR he is now and will always be a borderline RB2. But in my PPR, he was a lower-tier RB1 with upside and I don't expect that to change.
Agreed. I won't touch him in a non PPR league but would consider it in a PPR.
 
In short, I believe he's easily the most overrated RB in the NFL (& I wasn't high on him when he came out). His main problems are a lack of functional strength & poor vision. Classic case of being able to outrun defenders in college, but the deficiencies in his game are too problematic to overcome in the pros.

Yeah, he's performing (FF-wise) because he's getting the opps. However, like Holy Schneikes said, it's only a matter of time before he's benched, traded, etc. Pierre Thomas is a better RB right now, IMO.

 
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When I went back and looked around a little bit, the ONLY guy I noticed that started off very slowly and became a real force was Tiki Barber. So there is that hope. But even Tiki wasn't nearly AS bad, and he was one amongst a TON of guys who started bad and stayed bad, so the deck is stacked against you if you want to hang on to Bush.
Marshall Faulk.He averaged 3.6 yards/carry in his first three seasons with the Colts.Bush averaged 3.6 yards/carry in his first two seasons with the Saints.Ironically, both players were #2 overall picks and considered "smallish" RB's. It could obviously go either way for Bush. However, the book definitely has not been shut on him yet.
 
Reggie was the worst starting RB in the NFL last year and it wasn't even that close.
I think Bears fans will argue with you about Cedric Benson there.............
From a true effectiveness per carry perspective, Benson was really really bad... but still better than Bush.
I like how you stated "per carry", like that's all that matters.Bush still netted 82 yards with .5 TDs per game You prefer Benson's 72 and <.4?White's 76 and <.5?Benson netted 3.7 yards per touch, Bush 4.3The argument seems simple, people who like Bush place value on any way there is to move the ball, his detractors think RB = run.ETA: we've entered an era when RB can also mean "receiving back" - Bush, MJD, LT, Westbrook, CJ2, etc.
 
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I was stunned at how much worse Bush looked in 07 than in 06. And I can't help but think it was somewhat injury related. The burst & acceleration just wasn't there. While I don't think he is going to be a worthless bust, at this point it's highly doubtful he'll ever reach the lofty expectations foisted upon him. (At least not in NO.)In non-PPR he is now and will always be a borderline RB2. But in my PPR, he was a lower-tier RB1 with upside and I don't expect that to change.
I always felt that he was "special" because of his burst and acceleration. But he has had several ankle issues the last two years (especially the one during the charity basketball game a year ago in Feb) and they seemed to have removed the burst out of a cut he used to be able to make. IIRC, he was limited at the beginning of training camp last year from the ankle injury he suffered in that basketball game. I remember thinking at the time that a 5 month recovery was not a good sign. Can the ankle be rehabbed with rest and PT this last off season? I don't know, but I think we will be able to see if he has any burst after the first couple of regular season games. If Reggie shows no improvement over last season, I see him as a T Metcalf for the rest of his career. Although he might be a quite successful WR. In fact I think the last time I saw him actually accelerate and cut well was on the TD run he had against the Bears in the playoffs two years ago.
 
Guy plays in a high octane offense, is a pass catching stud out of the backfield, although his ypc are not very high, plays ona team with Deuce(2 ACLs torn now), and Pierre Thomas who is largely unknown...what is not to like? We all know he can't carry the ball 20 times a game but he can sure knock in 1,200-1,500 total yds, catch upwards of 75-80 balls which in PPR leagues is pretty darn good, and probably knock in 6-8 TD minimum...but I don't do projections so I'll refrain.
He can sure knock in? Except last year? And barely in his first year?Sorry, Bush started at RB, and was AWFUL. As for his PPR numbers. Yes he gets FORCED the ball a lot. Will that continue? His ypc is AWFUL. For his touches, the Saints get very little production. If he was a 5th round pick, he'd get 3-4 touches a game. He doesn't deserve the touches, because he doesn't produce. His yards per touch is painfully bad. Sorry he's a drive killer for the Saints. Watch the guy play, on runs he's low 3s per carry, on catches again very low. Brees basically called him out and said go watch more film. Sorry he's simply not translating to the NFL. Bush won't catch 80 balls a game for the next 5 years. Sorry, the Saints will find other options that produce more results. This guy is a huge bust and it will take another 2-3 years before people realize it. The Saints keep waiting, but at some point they need to give the ball to someone else. Bush at the center of the offense last year was an epic failure. If anyone thinks his guy is going to keep getting force fed the ball, rackin up the 80+ catch years, they are oblivious. He's not producing. Sorry, he just isn't. MJD produces. Look at his touches, and his yardage/TDs. That's call PRODUCTION kids. Bush gets twice the touches, and half the production. Bush landed on a great offense, with a great offensive coach. Brees/Colston and a very solid OL. Not to mention he can't even stay healthy. I don't see how Bush suddenly gets better. And yes he needs to get better. The Saints suck, force feeding Bush isn't getting them far, and the offense was BETTER without him. Unless Bush really starts to break out, the Saints are going to stop calling his # and he'll slide down the touch pole and start peaking at 45-50 catches, 500 rush yards.
 
Reggie was the worst starting RB in the NFL last year and it wasn't even that close.
I think Bears fans will argue with you about Cedric Benson there.............
From a true effectiveness per carry perspective, Benson was really really bad... but still better than Bush.
I like how you stated "per carry", like that's all that matters.Bush still netted 82 yards with .5 TDs per game You prefer Benson's 72 and <.4?White's 76 and <.5?Benson netted 3.7 yards per touch, Bush 4.3The argument seems simple, people who like Bush place value on any way there is to move the ball, his detractors think RB = run.ETA: we've entered an era when RB can also mean "receiving back" - Bush, MJD, LT, Westbrook, CJ2, etc.
Move the ball?You've clearly never seen the Saints play. Bush has an AWFUL ypc. He's an AWFUL receiving RB. Lots of catches is great for FF. But in the NFL, he does jack with those catches. He's a drive killer actually. He rarely breaks the big one, goes down on first contact and constantly runs out of bounds. Among RBs, his ypc is brutal. The guys does jack with his touches. Sorry 5 yard passes and then falling down doesn't help the offense. People think wow 80 catches, the guy is a stud. Unless you see his yardage on those catches. The whole "get him the ball in space and watch him work" stuff just hasn't panned out. Sorry but it hasn't. People are blinded by the FF production in terms of catches, but NFL wise, he was pathetic last year.
 
When I went back and looked around a little bit, the ONLY guy I noticed that started off very slowly and became a real force was Tiki Barber. So there is that hope. But even Tiki wasn't nearly AS bad, and he was one amongst a TON of guys who started bad and stayed bad, so the deck is stacked against you if you want to hang on to Bush.
Marshall Faulk.He averaged 3.6 yards/carry in his first three seasons with the Colts.Bush averaged 3.6 yards/carry in his first two seasons with the Saints.Ironically, both players were #2 overall picks and considered "smallish" RB's. It could obviously go either way for Bush. However, the book definitely has not been shut on him yet.
Way to cherry pick stats. *lol*Faulk rushing TDS, 11, 11. Bush 4, 6. Rushing yards, 1200, 1100. Bush 500, 500.Sorry, but Faulk after 2 years, and Bush after 2 years, are NOTHING alike. One was an NFL running back who produced. Bush was an epic failure when he took over, and when he got hurt the team was better. I love when people pull meaningless stats out of their ###.
[bush and LT are both black, way too early to give up on Bush.
 
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He's a sub-par NFL RB... however, if we're talking PPR... even dynasty - I'm buying this guy.

You got to figure he's set for 70-80 rec each season. While Pierre may take over the Deuce role, it will only help him in the flats and split wide.

I'm buying PPR.

 
teamroc said:
FUBAR said:
Reggie was the worst starting RB in the NFL last year and it wasn't even that close.
I think Bears fans will argue with you about Cedric Benson there.............
From a true effectiveness per carry perspective, Benson was really really bad... but still better than Bush.
I like how you stated "per carry", like that's all that matters.Bush still netted 82 yards with .5 TDs per game You prefer Benson's 72 and <.4?White's 76 and <.5?Benson netted 3.7 yards per touch, Bush 4.3The argument seems simple, people who like Bush place value on any way there is to move the ball, his detractors think RB = run.ETA: we've entered an era when RB can also mean "receiving back" - Bush, MJD, LT, Westbrook, CJ2, etc.
Move the ball?You've clearly never seen the Saints play. Bush has an AWFUL ypc. He's an AWFUL receiving RB. Lots of catches is great for FF. But in the NFL, he does jack with those catches. He's a drive killer actually. He rarely breaks the big one, goes down on first contact and constantly runs out of bounds. Among RBs, his ypc is brutal. The guys does jack with his touches. Sorry 5 yard passes and then falling down doesn't help the offense. People think wow 80 catches, the guy is a stud. Unless you see his yardage on those catches. The whole "get him the ball in space and watch him work" stuff just hasn't panned out. Sorry but it hasn't. People are blinded by the FF production in terms of catches, but NFL wise, he was pathetic last year.
Are we talking FF or NFL here? I won't draft the guy for the NFL team I own (oh, wait, I never did buy that team :rolleyes: ) but as we're talking FF, he's a decent player. We can all agree that he didn't do well last year, the question is whether he can/will bounce back. He played well as a rookie, but you're right that I didn't see him play in games last year, so I'm going by what I saw - in his rookie year.
 
Well I don't know about the stats, but I did watch every Saints game last year. Bush was hurt his last 3-4 games and clearly didn't have the burst, etc. so you have to throw out those games. Also, Peyton was way too pass happy last year and there was no way for Reggie to get into the RB's proverbial rhythm. There were PLENTY of times where he was popping off 5, 6, 7 yards up the middle and then Peyton would just start throwing again. It was maddening to watch.

I'm holding.

 
Weiner Dog said:
[bush and LT are both black, way too early to give up on Bush.
good point, i don't see how Bush can fail given this shared trait with LT.
 
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Weiner Dog said:
When I went back and looked around a little bit, the ONLY guy I noticed that started off very slowly and became a real force was Tiki Barber. So there is that hope. But even Tiki wasn't nearly AS bad, and he was one amongst a TON of guys who started bad and stayed bad, so the deck is stacked against you if you want to hang on to Bush.
Marshall Faulk.He averaged 3.6 yards/carry in his first three seasons with the Colts.Bush averaged 3.6 yards/carry in his first two seasons with the Saints.Ironically, both players were #2 overall picks and considered "smallish" RB's. It could obviously go either way for Bush. However, the book definitely has not been shut on him yet.
Love the 3 year window cutoff point. Marshall Faulk had 1800 combined yards (with a 52 yard run and an 82 yard reception) in his rookie year with 12 TDs. Not EXACTLY the same scenario. Faulk had a horrible injury-riddled third year which mangled his stats over your 3 year time-frame, but he had shown about a gazillion times more than Bush has in his first year.
 
Wildman said:
Finally, to this point, it's REALLY hard to argue against the fact that Bush has been a very bad RB overall. But some folks will STILL say he's young and could still turn it around. And that is true. He IS young, and he does have a chance to do that because at SOME point he displayed a lot of talent. But really, what are the odds? How many backs have looked as bad as Bush has and then gone on to great (or even mediocre) careers? When I went back and looked around a little bit, the ONLY guy I noticed that started off very slowly and became a real force was Tiki Barber. So there is that hope. But even Tiki wasn't nearly AS bad, and he was one amongst a TON of guys who started bad and stayed bad, so the deck is stacked against you if you want to hang on to Bush.

Off the top of my head...

Tiki Barber

Thomas Jones

Garrison Hearst

O.J. Simpson

Ricky Bell

DVOA is a nice-looking stat, but how does it correlate to what could be correctable issues in a player's running style? You're not accounting for a player's ability to grow. It is disturbing that Bush has pressed too hard to make a big play in the NFL compared to surprisingly good downhill runs in college in similar situations. Can't say his value is all that high though. Last year it peaked. I definitely fell for the hype. I'm not ready to pack it in on Bush yet. Not that I'll be clamoring for him this year (not that I'll need to reach for him either)
Some of those are decent examples.Jones isn't bad, but he's never really been a stud either. If Bush ends up with a Jones-type career, you can STILL get more for him (as a 14th ranked dynasty back) than you will get FROM him.

Hearst is a solid example.

OJ had a surprisingly slow start, but he still showed a lot more than Bush has early on (he was over 4 YPC through 2), and I suspect part of his slow start is because Bufalo was brutally bad in those days (New Orleans isn't, except on Bush running plays).

Ricky Bell was a one year wonder, with a slow start, and slow end and one decent year in between.

But like I said before, there are ALWAYS counterexamples, but if you start looking at ALL of the backs who started like Bush has (worst runner in the league), I suspect you will find a lot more complete busts than Tikis and Hearsts.

 
This is something I had written about Bush a couple months ago and still feel the same way:

Here is the thing about Bush.People are saying he's failed to meet expectations, and that is somewhat true. However, let's not forget the 2nd half of his rookie season. He actually did perform like he was expected and looked good doing it.Cue 2007 and the O-line started off miserably (look at Brees's first 4 games). The Saint's offense simply couldn't get going. This was both because of the O-line play as well as the play-calling. On top of that, Deuce was lost and Bush was being asked to do something he really hadn't done before. Be the main guy, run between the tackles, and shoulder the load. Now, I'm not saying he can or can't be that guy, but I really think it's an exaggeration to say he's had 2 yrs to show he can do it. He really hasn't. His rookie year he was part of a 2 part backfield with Deuce and was not the run-between the tackles guy. Same at the start of 2007. And then he got hurt near the end of last season. Essentially he's only had a little more than half a season to show whether or not he can be the main guy and run inside.The other thing is I simply don't think the Saint's were using Bush the way he ought to be used. I dont' think we know for sure yet and may never know, but from what we've seen it seems that he just isn't an inside, pounding runner. Yet, that's how they were trying to use him. And I don't think you need to be to be the lead guy. Again, look at Westbrook. While he is a decent run between the tackles guy, it's not his strong point and he is often used in space and used well. He is the focal point of that offense, gets an insane # of touches, yet he does almost all of his damage in space. That just hasn't been how Bush has been used, yet that's what he is familiar with because that's how he's been used almost his entire career up until the middle of 2007.This year is going to be very telling. I think one of four things will happen.1. He will continue to be asked to be the main guy and become an inside runner and fail.2. He will continue to be asked to be the main guy and become an inside runner and succeed.3. He will continue to be asked to be the main guy but used more in the mold of Westbrook and succeed.4. He will not be asked to be the main runner as they will use someone else and he will be used much like he was his rookie year and did well.I personally don't see #2 happening. I hope for the Saints (particularly as a fan) that #1 doesn't happen. In terms of FF, I would hope #3 will happen. However, I think we will end up seeing #4, which will limit his FF upside, but will still allow him to be successful, especially in PPR leagues as well as probably work well for the Saints.
I truly think that Bush's stat-line don't truly represent why he failed to put up #'s last year. Watching the Saints every week last year was able to give a lot more insight into him and his situation than the #'s show.
 
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EBF said:
I'm taking a wait and see approach with Reggie. I don't think he'll ever be the Faulk type player some people expected, but I'm not really convinced he's garbage either. He's a unique player because of his pedigree, his playing style, and the fact that a lot of opposing teams probably gave him considerable extra attention that someone like Ryan Grant or Joseph Addai has never faced. I don't think you can just look at the YPC and say he sucks in this case. Not yet anyway. I still think he's a good player to own in PPR leagues. In non-PPR he might be a sell candidate depending on what you can get.
You really believe that Bush was given more attention Ryan Grant and Jospeh Addai this year? I hear this a lot, and I don't get it.So in week 12, Grant goes 15 for 101 and a TD plus 6 for 31 through the air. Then he goes to Dallas the very next week and he goes for 14 for 94 and 2 TDs. Then the following week Oakland comes in and he goes 29 for 156. You don't think defenses around the league know about this guy at that point? Do you think they go into prep meetings for the games against GB saying, "Don't worry about that RB, whatever his name is, I don't think he can play".Addai scored in 4 straight games (twice in week 3) to start the season in 2007. I'd say the rest of the season defenses were pretty well aware of him.Then we have Reggie Bush who has done NOTHING to hurt any team he has faced for two years. Why on Earth would anyone be paying any kind of special attention to him? The NO passing game was very effective all year (basically tied with the Packers behind the Patriots), while the running game was HORRIBLE (except when Thomas was running of course). I have a lot of trouble believing defenses were going into games saying "We've got to shut Bush down and force them to pass.". Early in his rookie season that MIGHT have been the case, but certainly not by the middle of his second season.
 
Then we have Reggie Bush who has done NOTHING to hurt any team he has faced for two years. Why on Earth would anyone be paying any kind of special attention to him? The NO passing game was very effective all year (basically tied with the Packers behind the Patriots), while the running game was HORRIBLE (except when Thomas was running of course). I have a lot of trouble believing defenses were going into games saying "We've got to shut Bush down and force them to pass.". Early in his rookie season that MIGHT have been the case, but certainly not by the middle of his second season.
He's done nothing?? He was largely the reason they had a solid year two years ago. He is definitely an impact player - I think the masses are dogging him way too much this past year after a downer. I think you need to consider that teams definitely focused in on Bush in the passing game last year - good possiblity as to why the downfield game was great. If you straight up look at his yard/catch was severely down last season and is largely due to the defensive focus on him either split or out of the backfield. The focus of the defense was NOT between the tackles, but coming out of the backfield in the flats.He is terrible between the tackles - that was clear from his college days, but in open space is either solid or create's opportunities for those around him. They need a 1-2 punch with Bush - that's definitely clear.
 
Im buying actually. The way that O crashed last year was flukey and I lay the problem at the feet of the coach, the o-line and the playoff hangover. (they've been to the playoffs how many times?)

Buy low candidate.

 
I have owned Bush for two years in a keeper league where you surrender the draft pick of the round you selected your keeper at. I got him at 2.3 as a rookie but I'm choosing not to keep him this year. He was RB11 in PPG in 2006 in our league and RB10 in PPG in our league in 2007. I'm dropping him because I truly think he will fall back to me in R3. My plan is to buy lower than in years past to hopefully increase his value. I think his health and misuse are the major reasons for concern about Reggie and I feel confident that he will bounce back and have his best year yet.

 
Holy Schneikes:

Thanks for your post and starting this thread. I always appreciate counterpoints to challenge my preconceptions.

 
I've been buying since mid last yr; he was doing quite well when Duece went down and before his injury

Reggie was quoted as to saying that his PCL Injury was during Week 9; I believe...

From Week 5 too 9 when he was the full time starter

Reggie had 84 Att for 354 for a 4.21 YPC

He also had over 110 total yds in 4 of those 5 games

After Week 9, you can see where he had some issues... his attempts dropped, his YPC took a serious hit; overall, you can tell he was injuried and he gutted out 4 more games.

also, see here

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...50&start=50

 
I've been buying since mid last yr; he was doing quite well when Duece went down and before his injury

Reggie was quoted as to saying that his PCL Injury was during Week 9; I believe...

From Week 5 too 9 when he was the full time starter

Reggie had 84 Att for 354 for a 4.21 YPC

He also had over 110 total yds in 4 of those 5 games

After Week 9, you can see where he had some issues... his attempts dropped, his YPC took a serious hit; overall, you can tell he was injuried and he gutted out 4 more games.

also, see here

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...50&start=50
This is a :rolleyes: Reggie Bush is not a guy you can just look at the final #'s and say he failed miserably. There are very legit explanations for what he put up. Weeks 1-3, the ENTIRE Saint's offense was off-track and the reason for all their trouble during those first 3 weeks (and even some into week 4) was the O-line. It simply was out of sync and not playing well at all. Brees had no time and there were no running lanes open at all. Everyone was down on Brees after those first 4 weeks until the O-line dramatically turned it around and gave him some time to throw. Not coincidentally, as KH points out above, Bush's #'s improved during his first stint as being the main ball carrier. While 4.2 ypc isn't earth-shattering, he also had 34 receptions for 207 yds and 2 TDs during those 5 weeks.

Then, the injury occurred and his #'s plummeted. While he tried to play on it, you could tell by watching him things weren't the same. There are more than enough reasons to explain his poor cumulative 2007 performance. It's very easy to look at a final stat-line and draw a conclusion. It's another thing to look a little closer, paying particular attention to gamelogs and understand the timing for what took place. This is not to say that other RB's have it rosy and that they don't have obstacles to overcome. That's not it at all. 2008 is essentially Bush's "judgment" year and he needs to finally get it done. However, the reason one should reserve shutting the book on him is what he's shown he's capable of. Look back to the 2nd half of 2006 and you can see how potent he can be.

 
Well I don't know about the stats, but I did watch every Saints game last year. Bush was hurt his last 3-4 games and clearly didn't have the burst, etc. so you have to throw out those games. Also, Peyton was way too pass happy last year and there was no way for Reggie to get into the RB's proverbial rhythm. There were PLENTY of times where he was popping off 5, 6, 7 yards up the middle and then Peyton would just start throwing again. It was maddening to watch.

I'm holding.
:lmao:
 
Well I don't know about the stats, but I did watch every Saints game last year. Bush was hurt his last 3-4 games and clearly didn't have the burst, etc. so you have to throw out those games. Also, Peyton was way too pass happy last year and there was no way for Reggie to get into the RB's proverbial rhythm. There were PLENTY of times where he was popping off 5, 6, 7 yards up the middle and then Peyton would just start throwing again. It was maddening to watch.

I'm holding.
:goodposting:
Great Talent, mediocre work ethic and a dynamic player, However I just don't find Bush to be the kind of RB you look for as a full time starter. I think his skill sets are great for a situational talent. I would rather see the Saints turn him into a Steve Smith type WR and let him work in space away from the backfield where he still seems frustrated by the Speed of NFL Defensive backs.
 
I've been buying since mid last yr; he was doing quite well when Duece went down and before his injury

Reggie was quoted as to saying that his PCL Injury was during Week 9; I believe...

From Week 5 too 9 when he was the full time starter

Reggie had 84 Att for 354 for a 4.21 YPC

He also had over 110 total yds in 4 of those 5 games

After Week 9, you can see where he had some issues... his attempts dropped, his YPC took a serious hit; overall, you can tell he was injuried and he gutted out 4 more games.

also, see here

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...50&start=50
This is a :pics: Reggie Bush is not a guy you can just look at the final #'s and say he failed miserably. There are very legit explanations for what he put up. Weeks 1-3, the ENTIRE Saint's offense was off-track and the reason for all their trouble during those first 3 weeks (and even some into week 4) was the O-line. It simply was out of sync and not playing well at all. Brees had no time and there were no running lanes open at all. Everyone was down on Brees after those first 4 weeks until the O-line dramatically turned it around and gave him some time to throw. Not coincidentally, as KH points out above, Bush's #'s improved during his first stint as being the main ball carrier. While 4.2 ypc isn't earth-shattering, he also had 34 receptions for 207 yds and 2 TDs during those 5 weeks.

Then, the injury occurred and his #'s plummeted. While he tried to play on it, you could tell by watching him things weren't the same. There are more than enough reasons to explain his poor cumulative 2007 performance. It's very easy to look at a final stat-line and draw a conclusion. It's another thing to look a little closer, paying particular attention to gamelogs and understand the timing for what took place. This is not to say that other RB's have it rosy and that they don't have obstacles to overcome. That's not it at all. 2008 is essentially Bush's "judgment" year and he needs to finally get it done. However, the reason one should reserve shutting the book on him is what he's shown he's capable of. Look back to the 2nd half of 2006 and you can see how potent he can be.
Guys, I'll buy that to some degree, and maybe you are right. However, all five of those games were against mediocre to bad rush defenses, and as you point out, even in that five game stretch, it's not like he's TOTALLY lighting it up. The only game where he was downright impressive was against the 9ers.Do you see where that just sounds like a bunch of excuses after a while? First 3 games were the O-lines fault and the fact that Deuce was still around, last couple of games were because of injury etc. If you were allowed to cherry pick games like for any of the OTHER starters in the NFL, they'd look a lot better too. There are almost ALWAYS "legit explanations" for poor numbers.

It's just very difficult to justify Bush's overall performance based on the extreme threat he represents, when that threat hasn't really materialized in two years, even in his good games. 86 players (71 RBs) had runs longer than Reggie Bush this year, and obviously that includes that games where the stars were aligned and no excuses can be found. 68 backs had longer runs in his rookie year. That's like every starting back in the NFL plus every back-up in the NFL, plus a few more guys produced a longer run than Bush in both years he's been in the league. And this is supposedly Reggie's STRENGTH.

Still, I get where you are coming from, and if I still had Bush on my roster I'd look at that stretch as a sign of hope. He certainly looked a little better in that stretch than the rest of the year.

 
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