Who Will Be In the Next 10 HOF Classes? (1 Viewer)

I decided to start this topic based on some discussion in the recent Torry Holt HOF thread. There is some good related discussion from a couple years ago here: Future HOF Candidates.

From the Pro Football HOF site:

There is no set number of new enshrinees, but the Committee’s current ground rules do stipulate that between four and seven new members will be selected each year. Every candidate is carefully scrutinized and must receive at least 80 percent approval of the Committee at the annual meeting before he can be elected.

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The only restriction is that a player and coach must have last played or coached at least five seasons before he can be considered. There is no mandatory retirement period for a contributor before he may be considered.

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To assure that older players will be considered along with the Modern Era players, a Seniors Committee, made up of nine veteran members of the overall Selection Committee, has been established to consider nominees whose active career has been completed by at least 25 years.

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In advance of the Hall of Fame Selection Meeting in February, the selectors are provided detailed biographies on each of the 17 finalist candidates. At the annual meeting, each of the nominees is thoroughly discussed by the committee before a series of reduction votes are taken. First, the two senior candidates are discussed and voted on for election. They must receive the same 80 percent affirmative vote as the modern-era candidates. Next, the there is a vote that reduces the modern-era finalists list from 15 to 10. Following that, a vote is taken to reduce the list from 10 to 5 names. The five remaining candidates for Hall of Fame election are then voted on individually (yes or no) for membership.

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So currently, the NFL HOF inducts up to 7 people in every class. Each class can include players, coaches, and other contributors (e.g., owners and commissioners). Each class can include up to 2 senior/old timer nominated candidates and up to 5 candidates who are within normal eligibility.I would like to try to determine who the non senior/old timer HOFers will be in the next 10 classes. Per the current guidelines, that means 40-50 HOFers.

Obviously, to be eligible to make the next 10 classes, any active player would have to retire before the 2013 season. So most of the people that will be in this group are likely already retired. Let's start with finalists from the last few classes that are not yet in:

Cris Carter - 1 time finalist (2008); eligible for 1 year through 2008 class

Richard Dent - 4 time finalist (2004, 2005, 2007, 2008); eligible for 6 years through 2008 class

Randy Gradishar - 2 time finalist (2003, 2008); eligible for 20 years through 2008 class

L.C. Greenwood - 6 time finalist (1991, 1995, 1996, 2002, 2005, 2006); eligible for 22 years through 2008 class

Russ Grimm - 4 time finalist (2005-2008); eligible for 12 years through 2008 class

Ray Guy - 7 time finalist (1992, 1995, 1997, 1999, 2002, 2007, 2008); eligible for 17 years through 2008 class

Claude Humphrey - 3 time finalist (2003, 2005, 2006); eligible for 22 years through 2008 class

Bob Kuechenberg - 7 time finalist (2002-2008); eligible for 20 years through 2008 class

Randall McDaniel - 1 time finalist (2008); eligible for 2 years through 2008 class

Andre Reed - 2 time finalist (2007, 2008); eligibile for 3 years through 2008 class

Paul Tagliabue - 2 time finalist (2007, 2008); eligible for 2 years through 2008 class

Derrick Thomas - 4 time finalist (2005-2008); eligible for 4 years through 2008 class

Interesting how some guys pop in and out as finalists (e.g., L.C. Greenwood and Ray Guy). My guess is that Gradishar and Greenwood will make it as senior nominations at some point down the line. Looks like Dent, Grimm, Kuechenberg, and Thomas have built some momentum and will likely make it within our window. I think Carter and Tagliabue are locks.

Reed is a bit more questionable... Carter is likely to go in this year, and Rice and Brown will be eligible the year after that, so I suspect Reed will be delayed for a few more years... and then guys like Bruce, Harrison, et al will be on the horizon. Reed could get squeezed.

I think these guys are very likely to be HOFers in the next 10 classes:

QB - Favre

Assuming Peyton and Brady do not retire by 2013. Warner is an interesting candidate based on what he is doing this year to add to his past accomplishments... but I have to at least see the rest of this year (does he keep it up the rest of the season? do they make the postseason, and if so, how do they do, and how does Warner do? does he have a shot at MVP? what about beyond this season?). Certainly the lack of other QB candidates should only help Warner.

RB - Emmitt, Faulk, Martin, Bettis, Tomlinson

Assuming LT retires by 2013. Not sure if Alexander should make this list.

WR - Rice, Brown, Carter, Harrison, Bruce

Assuming Harrison, Owens, and Bruce retire by 2013 and Moss and Holt do not. Also assuming Owens is not in within first ballot or two due to character, and thus misses the cut. Not sure if Reed should make this list.

TE - Sharpe, Gonzalez

OL - Grimm, Kuechenberg, McDaniel, Allen, Pace, Ogden, Walter Jones, Shields, Roaf

Not sure all of these guys will make it within the 10 year window. Assuming those active will retire by 2013.

DL - Bruce Smith, Strahan, Sapp, Dent

Not sure if Jason Taylor should make the list.

LB - Brooks, Lewis, Seau, Derrick Thomas

Assuming Brooks and Lewis retire by 2013.

DB - Deion, Rod Woodson, Aeneas Williams

Not sure about full-time safeties. I don't think Lynch will make it. I think Harrison should but not sure voters will agree. I think Dawkins should, but I'm not sure he'll get in within the 10 year window.

Specialists - None

I don't think any are worthy. However, as a 7 time finalist Guy would appear to have a chance. That said, he's been eligible for 17 years, so it is not a given he'll make it. I think one of the problems he faces in any given year is that he'd have to be chosen over players at other positions that made greater impact for their teams - like everyone else mentioned in this post.

Coaches - Parcells

Assuming Parcells is really done. And assuming Belicheck does not retire in time. Parcells was already a 2 time finalist from previous retirement, but he returned to coaching and now has to wait to regain his eligibility. I suspect he didn't get in the first time in part because voters suspected he wasn't done.

Contributors - Tagliabue

Surprised he isn't already in.

That's 35. So there is room for 15 more guys I didn't include... like Warner, Alexander, Reed, Owens on an early ballot, Jason Taylor, Rodney Harrison, and several others.

Who do you think will make it? Note that will make it and should make it are different, though we can talk about both.

The HOF defines its modern era as "a majority of a members' career that occurred after 1946." These are the number of HOF members by position in the modern era:

QB - 23

RB (HBs and FBs) - 25

WR - 19

TE - 7

OL - 33

DL - 26

LB - 17

DB - 19

Specialists - 1

I'm sure some will argue QBs and RBs are overrepresented, but it is also true that they handle the ball much more often than other positions, and are arguably more responsible for their teams' success than other positions.

Offense as a whole is much better represented (117 to 62). And in my previous post, I listed 21 offensive players to only 11 defensive players in my list of likely HOFers in the next 10 classes. While I'm sure I may have missed a few defenders, I don't think I missed a lot... and I did not include some offensive players that have a chance, like Alexander, Owens, Bruce, and Reed.

As an example, I think Gradishar, Greenwood, Leroy Butler, Rodney Harrison, and Steve Atwater should be in... but I'm not sure if or when the voters will agree.

Some tangent questions that don't really have to do with projecting the next 10 classes:

Why is this? Do defenders have a harder time proving worthiness by virtue of it being harder to measure yards/points prevented by an individual defender, whereas we can measure yards/points gained for offensive players (other than OL)?

Is it easier to play defense, thus precluding players from standing out as often among their peers? Or does that happen for other reasons?

Is it more rare for defenders to sustain excellence for a long time?

Is it media driven? I would ask if it is fantasy football driven, but I'm sure the HOF voters aren't generally into fantasy football.

Extremely hard to believe only one QB will get in over the next 10 years. Not saying I can list a whole bunch of great candidates, just saying only one QB would be hard to believe.

dgreen said:

Extremely hard to believe only one QB will get in over the next 10 years. Not saying I can list a whole bunch of great candidates, just saying only one QB would be hard to believe.

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I agree that would be unusual based on past voting patterns, but the only one I can think of with a chance that has not yet retired is Warner (again, assuming Brady and Peyton don't become eligible within the 10 year window). Perhaps this helps Warner's chances.And perhaps this improves the chances of someone else who has been retired for a while, but the only QB I am aware of who has been a finalist that has not already gotten in is Stabler; he was a 3 time finalist, most recently in 2003, and has been eligible for 19 years.I think this is a good reason to look at it like this rather than just through the typical question about whether a particular player will get in. This gives a feel for the kind of competition players will face over the next 10 years and perhaps reveals some things that aren't already obvious, like the lack of worthy QB candidates over the next decade.

Just Win Baby said:

dgreen said:

Extremely hard to believe only one QB will get in over the next 10 years. Not saying I can list a whole bunch of great candidates, just saying only one QB would be hard to believe.

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I agree that would be unusual based on past voting patterns, but the only one I can think of with a chance that has not yet retired is Warner (again, assuming Brady and Peyton don't become eligible within the 10 year window). Perhaps this helps Warner's chances. And perhaps this improves the chances of someone else who has been retired for a while, but no QBs have been finalists that have not already gotten in.I think this is a good reason to look at it like this rather than just through the typical question about whether a particular player will get in. This gives a feel for the kind of competition players will face over the next 10 years and perhaps reveals some things that aren't already obvious, like the lack of worthy QB candidates over the next decade.

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Yeah, like I said, can't really think of any.I just keep thinking of Ken Anderson, Randall Cunningham, Boomer Esiason, and Steve McNair; all guys who just don't quite have enough on their resume.

Nice topic man. Something I dont understand - of the 32 players you listed, 31 of them began playing after 1980 (dont know why you listed Kuch but noone else from Pre 1980). Other players I would add to the list:

1) Brian Dawkins - Arguably the best safety since Ronnie Lott. He is a perfect example of someone who was possibly the best at his position but may have to wait until the #5 RB or #5 WR gets enshrined.

2) Brady - Im guessing he will retire within 5 yrs and is a lock

3) Manning - Same as Brady

4) Zach Thomas - Dr Z said that he would vote for him flat out. Not saying hell get in, but he should be in the disucssion.

Now I also believe that we will see many more older candidates getting their due before some of the current guys.

Ken Riley

Lemar Parrish

Bob Hayes

Bob Kuchenberg

Tommy Nobis

LC Greenwood

Jake Scott

Harold Carmichael

Guys maybe at the backend of the 10 year deal:

-Tom Brady- don't know where his heart is, lives in NYC, rehabbing in SoCal, and I could see him hanging it up within 5 years

-Ed Reed- 30 right now, will probably play past 5 more years, but he'll go in

-Chris McCalister- a year older, see Reed

-Adam Viniteri - might have to wait a ballot or two, but he'll go in

-Mike Holmgren- if he stays retired. Potentially borderline but 8 division titles in 16 years, a Bowl win, I"d put him in

-Morten Anderson- if you're going to put kickers in, he goes in.

Those are a few off the top of my head.

Just Win Baby said:

RB - Emmitt, Faulk, Martin, Bettis, Tomlinson

Assuming LT retires within the next 5 years. Not sure if Alexander should make this list.

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I could see Portis retiring in the next 5 years. He'll surpass 9,000 yards (maybe pushing 9,500 yards) and have about 80 TDs by the end of this year. If he puts together another 3 strong years, he'll probably be over 13,000 yards and 100 TDs.

Just Win Baby said:

dgreen said:

Extremely hard to believe only one QB will get in over the next 10 years. Not saying I can list a whole bunch of great candidates, just saying only one QB would be hard to believe.

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I agree that would be unusual based on past voting patterns, but the only one I can think of with a chance that has not yet retired is Warner (again, assuming Brady and Peyton don't become eligible within the 10 year window). Perhaps this helps Warner's chances.And perhaps this improves the chances of someone else who has been retired for a while, but the only QB I am aware of who has been a finalist that has not already gotten in is Stabler; he was a 3 time finalist, most recently in 2003, and has been eligible for 19 years.I think this is a good reason to look at it like this rather than just through the typical question about whether a particular player will get in. This gives a feel for the kind of competition players will face over the next 10 years and perhaps reveals some things that aren't already obvious, like the lack of worthy QB candidates over the next decade.

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Phil Simms, given his sterling announcing work, is a marginal QB candidate who I think might find his way in over the next 10 seasons. I'm a homer, he's a HOFer to me. If he didn't get hurt in 1990 when they won, he'd be a shoe-in.

interesting posts JWB

I would think Dermontti Dawson makes it.

NY/NJMFDIVER said:

Just Win Baby said:

dgreen said:

Extremely hard to believe only one QB will get in over the next 10 years. Not saying I can list a whole bunch of great candidates, just saying only one QB would be hard to believe.

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I agree that would be unusual based on past voting patterns, but the only one I can think of with a chance that has not yet retired is Warner (again, assuming Brady and Peyton don't become eligible within the 10 year window). Perhaps this helps Warner's chances.And perhaps this improves the chances of someone else who has been retired for a while, but the only QB I am aware of who has been a finalist that has not already gotten in is Stabler; he was a 3 time finalist, most recently in 2003, and has been eligible for 19 years.I think this is a good reason to look at it like this rather than just through the typical question about whether a particular player will get in. This gives a feel for the kind of competition players will face over the next 10 years and perhaps reveals some things that aren't already obvious, like the lack of worthy QB candidates over the next decade.

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Phil Simms, given his sterling announcing work, is a marginal QB candidate who I think might find his way in over the next 10 seasons. I'm a homer, he's a HOFer to me. If he didn't get hurt in 1990 when they won, he'd be a shoe-in.

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Hall of fame talent (Simms), hall of fame leader. Everything you'd want in a QB.Except he just didnt have the numbers because of the system, and getting cut short a couple more years which, in his case, was needed.And I LOVE the guy. Better than a number of QBs in the hall, but that doesnt make him deserving.

Lorenzo Neal

Kevin Mawae

Charles Haley should get consideration too.

Native said:

Nice topic man. Something I dont understand - of the 32 players you listed, 31 of them began playing after 1980 (dont know why you listed Kuch but noone else from Pre 1980). Other players I would add to the list:1) Brian Dawkins - Arguably the best safety since Ronnie Lott. He is a perfect example of someone who was possibly the best at his position but may have to wait until the #5 RB or #5 WR gets enshrined. 2) Brady - Im guessing he will retire within 5 yrs and is a lock3) Manning - Same as Brady4) Zach Thomas - Dr Z said that he would vote for him flat out. Not saying hell get in, but he should be in the disucssion.Now I also believe that we will see many more older candidates getting their due before some of the current guys.Ken RileyLemar ParrishBob HayesBob KuchenbergTommy NobisLC GreenwoodJake ScottHarold Carmichael

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I listed all those who have been HOF finalists in the past 3 years but have not yet gotten in. Other than that, I mainly considered players who have not yet become eligible but will become eligible within the 10 year window.Note that any player whose career ended prior to 1979 doesn't fit my criteria, since they will almost certainly get in via the senior/old timer committee.I agree Dawkins should and will get in. I mentioned above that I think he should get in. I just don't know if he'll retire soon enough to get in within the 10 year window. He is 35. Let's say he plays 2 more seasons after this one. (I have no idea, I'm just assuming he isn't ready to retire yet.) He would then have to get in within his first 3 years of eligibility to make it within 10 years. It definitely could happen, I just wasn't sure what to assume about when he will retire.Manning is 32 and Brady is 31. I really don't think they will retire within 5 years, unless they retire due to some serious injury. (Other than Brady's current injury.)Thomas is an interesting candidate. I don't know enough about his accomplishments to comment yet. I do respect Dr. Z's opinion on this subject.I indicated that I think Kuechenberg and Greenwood will get in. I think Kuech probably gets in within the next 5 years and Greenwood gets in later via the senior committee.I don't know much about Riley and Parrish. But neither has ever been a HOF finalist. I don't see it happening now if it hasn't happened in their first 20-21 years of eligibility... they could get recognition from the senior committee in another several years if they are worthy. Both were first team All Pro only once, though.Hayes, Nobis, and Scott have been eligible for more than 25 years. While that doesn't preclude them from being nominated through the normal process (as I understand it), I think it is very likely that none of them will get in unless via senior committee. And I was trying to avoid the senior committee candidates over the next 10 years and focus on the regular candidates. Hayes was a finalist once; Nobis and Scott were never finalists. I assume that means none of them are likely to make it.[Edit: Obviously, Hayes got in, but he was a senior candidate. As I said in the OP, I was seeking to identify the non-senior candidates that will be inducted over the 10 HOF classes beginning in 2009.]Problems for Carmichael:1. He was never 1st team All Pro. He did make the 1970s All Decade team and 4 Pro Bowls.2. He is currently #53, #42, and #19 in receptions, receiving yards, and receiving TDs, respectively. I know it's not fair to compare generations, but it's hard to see where his numbers are going to help him. Combining this with the previous point, what is his case for being one of the best WRs of his era? 3. Other HOF WRs whose careers overlapped with his: Largent, Joiner, Stallworth, Swann, Biletnikoff, Lofton, Monk, Charley Taylor, and Warfield. All but Monk overlapped at least 7 years with Carmichael, who had a 14 year career. (Monk overlapped 5 years with him.) That's a lot of his peers already in.4. Lots of competition at WR in the next 10 years from Rice, Brown, Carter, Bruce, Reed, Harrison, Owens, Moss, and Holt. What is his case for being more deserving than those guys?[Edited for readability due to quote restrictions.]

NY/NJMFDIVER said:

Guys maybe at the backend of the 10 year deal:-Tom Brady- don't know where his heart is, lives in NYC, rehabbing in SoCal, and I could see him hanging it up within 5 years

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I just can't see Brady playing for only 4 more seasons or fewer. Especially knowing he won't be 100% next year due to his knee injury.

NY/NJMFDIVER said:

-Ed Reed- 30 right now, will probably play past 5 more years, but he'll go in.

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It's definitely premature for Reed. He's played 98 games. If he retires soon enough to be eligible to get in within the next 10 years, I don't think his resume will be compelling enough for him to make it.

NY/NJMFDIVER said:

-Chris McCalister- a year older, see Reed

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Even less compelling than Reed. He's played more games (134), but he's been 1st team All Pro only once. What could possibly be his HOF argument? We haven't talked about Ronde Barber, but he'd get in before McAlister.

NY/NJMFDIVER said:

-Mike Holmgren- if he stays retired. Potentially borderline but 8 division titles in 16 years, a Bowl win, I"d put him in.

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I thought about Holmgren, but there are only 14 or 15 modern era coaches in the HOF (Halas bridges modern and pre-modern era). Those coaches are George Allen, Paul Brown, Weeb Ewbank, Joe Gibbs, Sid Gillman, Bud Grant, George Halas, Tom Landry, Marv Levy, Vince Lombardi, John Madden, Chuck Noll, Don Shula, Hank Stram, and Bill Walsh. And Parcells and Belicheck are current peers that I think are more deserving. I just don't see Holmgren meriting inclusion in that group.

NY/NJMFDIVER said:

-Adam Viniteri - might have to wait a ballot or two, but he'll go in-Morten Anderson- if you're going to put kickers in, he goes in.

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Here is an exchange from last year that involves Vinatieri, Morten Andersen, and Elam. I don't know how much the numbers have changed since then, but I think it's clear Vinatieri has a lot of work to do to merit real consideration - he's over 1000 points behind Morten Andersen and Gary Anderson and he's already 36. Elam is 2 years older, but is more than 400 points ahead of Vinatieri. And on top of that, who knows if and when any more specialists will get in, anyway?

SSOG said:

Just Win Baby said:

Vinatieri is not the best kicker ever, and his clutch ability is overrated. He is not a HOF player. IMO Morten Andersen has a chance to make it. Old post on this:

Just Win Baby said:

I've had the Vinatieri conversation before. In general, the argument for him boils down to him having made a few clutch kicks in the postseason. Meanwhile, guys like Gary Anderson and Morten Andersen have more than twice as many points.I did a brief search, and from what I could find, I'd vote for Morten Andersen, if any place kicker:- 2nd all time in points (2358) & FGs (520) to Gary Anderson- 1st all time in games played (354)- Most consecutive games scoring (332), with Elam a distant second with 188 through 2004- All time leader in made 50+ yard FGs in career (40), season (8), and game (3)- Entering 2004, had 31 game deciding kicks... can't find where that ranks- Kicked the 3rd longest FG in history (60 yards)- Most Pro Bowls ever for a kicker (7)- Most Pro Bowl points, FGs, FGAs, XPsHow much of that is made up by a few clutch postseason kicks?

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The biggest thing going against Morten Anderson is going to be Jason Elam. Elam is further along in everyone one of those categories than Morten Anderson was at this point in his career, and when he retires, Elam's going to have 5 years to narrow the gap. Morton Anderson's career high is 122 points in a season (in 24 seasons)- Elam has beaten that 5 times in 13 years. Elam's never had fewer than 103 points in a season, while Anderson has failed to hit 100 points 10 times in his career. At Elam's pace, he'll pass Anderson in scoring midway through his 21st season, and Anderson won't be Hall Eligible until after Elam's 20th season.To further the comparison, Morton Anderson has 40 FGs of 50+ yards... on 84 attempts (47.7%). Elam has 36 on 59 (61.0%), so not only will he own the record after 4 more kicks (and so far there's never been a single year where he hasn't kicked a 50+ yarder), he also will have done it on far fewer attempts. Elam also owns the record (well, shares it) for longest kick (Morton's only 4th now, since Matt Bryant made a 62 yarder last year).If Anderson would be HoF eligible immediately, he might stand a chance, but since he has to wait 5 years, there's no way he makes it unless Elam suffers a major career-ending injury or retires unexpectedly. His only argument for induction are his phenominal career numbers, and by the time he's eligible, there might be a still-active kicker who has already surpassed them.Elam's also got a better FG%, and owns the NFL record for XP% and most consecutive XPs, as well as the record for most consecutive 100-point seasons.

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dgreen said:

Just Win Baby said:

RB - Emmitt, Faulk, Martin, Bettis, Tomlinson

Assuming LT retires within the next 5 years. Not sure if Alexander should make this list.

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I could see Portis retiring in the next 5 years. He'll surpass 9,000 yards (maybe pushing 9,500 yards) and have about 80 TDs by the end of this year. If he puts together another 3 strong years, he'll probably be over 13,000 yards and 100 TDs.

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I agree, it's possible. Still has plenty of work to do, though. I don't think we can count him as likely at this point.

NY/NJMFDIVER said:

Just Win Baby said:

dgreen said:

Extremely hard to believe only one QB will get in over the next 10 years. Not saying I can list a whole bunch of great candidates, just saying only one QB would be hard to believe.

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I agree that would be unusual based on past voting patterns, but the only one I can think of with a chance that has not yet retired is Warner (again, assuming Brady and Peyton don't become eligible within the 10 year window). Perhaps this helps Warner's chances.And perhaps this improves the chances of someone else who has been retired for a while, but the only QB I am aware of who has been a finalist that has not already gotten in is Stabler; he was a 3 time finalist, most recently in 2003, and has been eligible for 19 years.I think this is a good reason to look at it like this rather than just through the typical question about whether a particular player will get in. This gives a feel for the kind of competition players will face over the next 10 years and perhaps reveals some things that aren't already obvious, like the lack of worthy QB candidates over the next decade.

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Phil Simms, given his sterling announcing work, is a marginal QB candidate who I think might find his way in over the next 10 seasons. I'm a homer, he's a HOFer to me. If he didn't get hurt in 1990 when they won, he'd be a shoe-in.

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Problems for Simms:1. He's been eligible for 10 seasons and has never been a finalist.2. He played at the same time as Montana, Marino, Elway, Moon, and Kelly, all HOFers.3. The highest he ranks on any all-time lists is #4 in times sacked and #17 in fumbles... #20 in passing yards is the highest positive category.4. He's a marginal candidate, as you yourself stated, and many feel QBs are overrepresented in the HOF.I liked him as a player, I just don't think he has enough.

Drunken Cowboy said:

I would think Dermontti Dawson makes it.

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Within the 10 year window? He has been eligible for 3 years and has not been a finalist. I agree he merits consideration, but there are a lot of really good OL that will become eligible over the next 10 years.

perry147 said:

Lorenzo Neal

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Old post on Neal below. I can't see him making it.

Just Win Baby said:

IMO Neal has no chance. Here are the FBs in the HOF:Jim Brown - 1957-1965 - arguably best RB of all timeLarry Csonka - 1968-1979 - Dolphins legend; Super Bowl MVP; almost 9000 combined net yards and 68 TDsJohn Henry Johnson - 1954-1966 - ranked #4 on career rushing list when he retiredMarion Motley - 1946-1953, 1955 - AAFC all time leading rusher; led NFL in rushing in 1950; on NFL 75th anniversary teamJoe Perry - 1948-1963 - 12532 combined net yards, more than 60 TDsJim Taylor - 1958-1967 - Packers legend; 10,532 combined net yards; NFL POY in 1962All of these FBs were offensive forces on their teams, not just blockers. You may also notice none have been elected who played after 1979, and Csonka was the only one who played after 1967. This is because of the changes to NFL offenses over the years that have moved towards using the FB as a blocker and only occasional receiver, not a primary ball carrier. Neal would be the first fullback to be elected solely for blocking ability. It won't happen.

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perry147 said:

Kevin Mawae

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Mawae is still active, so he will have 5 years or less of our 10 year window to make it. I'd say that's unlikely for a couple of reasons:1. There is a lot of OL competition that will be eligible ahead of him.2. He only made first team All Pro twice. Compare that to Dermontti Dawson, who made it 6 times, yet has not been a finalist in his first 3 years of eligibility.

NY/NJMFDIVER said:

Charles Haley should get consideration too.

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I'm interested in more opinions on him. He was first team All Pro 2 times. He ranks #22 on the official sack list, though there are more guys ahead of him, since sacks were not always officially recorded. I know he played on 5 Super Bowl champions, but to me there is a "right place, right time" element to that.Jason Taylor seems more worthy to me, but I wasn't sure if Taylor should be on the list.

Just Win Baby said:

perry147 said:

Kevin Mawae

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Mawae is still active, so he will have 5 years or less of our 10 year window to make it. I'd say that's unlikely for a couple of reasons:1. There is a lot of OL competition that will be eligible ahead of him.2. He only made first team All Pro twice. Compare that to Dermontti Dawson, who made it 6 times, yet has not been a finalist in his first 3 years of eligibility.

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there's something to that though IIRC the Steelers completely owned the C position on the all-pro list year after year. Him getting it over some HOF Cs or HOF caliber is quite good. Peers exceptional in this regard

Just Win Baby said:

perry147 said:

Lorenzo Neal

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Old post on Neal below. I can't see him making it.

Just Win Baby said:

IMO Neal has no chance. Here are the FBs in the HOF:Jim Brown - 1957-1965 - arguably best RB of all timeLarry Csonka - 1968-1979 - Dolphins legend; Super Bowl MVP; almost 9000 combined net yards and 68 TDsJohn Henry Johnson - 1954-1966 - ranked #4 on career rushing list when he retiredMarion Motley - 1946-1953, 1955 - AAFC all time leading rusher; led NFL in rushing in 1950; on NFL 75th anniversary teamJoe Perry - 1948-1963 - 12532 combined net yards, more than 60 TDsJim Taylor - 1958-1967 - Packers legend; 10,532 combined net yards; NFL POY in 1962All of these FBs were offensive forces on their teams, not just blockers. You may also notice none have been elected who played after 1979, and Csonka was the only one who played after 1967. This is because of the changes to NFL offenses over the years that have moved towards using the FB as a blocker and only occasional receiver, not a primary ball carrier. Neal would be the first fullback to be elected solely for blocking ability. It won't happen.

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I like Carthon and Gash better too and they're not even a mention hereETA in a current FB discussion, not amongst those greats

Ty Law may get a look. He certainly deserves at least some consideration.

NY/NJMFDIVER said:

Guys maybe at the backend of the 10 year deal:-Ed Reed- 30 right now, will probably play past 5 more years, but he'll go in-Chris McCalister- a year older, see Reed-Mike Holmgren- if he stays retired. Potentially borderline but 8 division titles in 16 years, a Bowl win, I"d put him in

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Reed and McAllister are more Bruschi-Steve McNair like. Team HOF or circle of honor most likely, NFL HOF, no way.I'm not a walrus fan but I will concede there are plenty out there. He'll be a close one.Bill Cowher, BB, BP, and Fisher are better than him IMO. Maybe Shanny, would have been definite years ago but it's fading for me.

I would put Bruce in over Carter or Brown.

Young Bruce had 200 yard games which ...you had to have seen it to be able to understand the sheer domination. When's the last time you saw a WR get 200? For me, that added to his totals is pretty great.

I think Aeneas should get in but it's a complex debate. Ya can't just say he shut down opposing #1 WRs. The opposing CB was often awful so team's didn't bother. It's just that I'd argue he shut down more #1s than anyone during his time. Catch 22. I don't think he'll get in but....rrrrrrrreally hated that guy for FF and I mean that to be complimentary.

I think you forgot Curtis Martin in your RB list. He's a lock.

Any doubt you have about his stats being a smidge low are overcome by having exceptional character that everyone just adored and respected. I think it was BP (Herm?)that said, someone is going to feel like they let him down if they don't vote for him. If ya dwell on that quote a bit, it really puts in perspective how he affected everyone-press, coaches, and teammates.

Ray Lewis will get in. Those charges might make Goodell's skin crawl when he does but...he's going in.

If Tony Dungy retires, I believe he will make it in as well. He took a job in Tampa, and took a team over that no one wanted, and turned them into Champions...he didn't win the SB with them but he turned the franchise around and I got caught up in the Bucs because of Dungy. he is a man that does unbelieveable work in the community, he is loved within the NFL, and he did go on and win a ton of games in Indy and did get his ring.

131-69 as a coach, 9-9 in the playoffs including a SB win, and IIRC 3 or 4 other Confernece CHampionship trips.

77-27 as the Indy coach...that's pretty good.

If we are talking about coaches, I think Dan Reeves more than merits consideration. In fact, I think he'll make it soon.

190 regular season wins

4 Conference Championships

11 play-off wins

Bri said:

Just Win Baby said:

perry147 said:

Kevin Mawae

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Mawae is still active, so he will have 5 years or less of our 10 year window to make it. I'd say that's unlikely for a couple of reasons:1. There is a lot of OL competition that will be eligible ahead of him.2. He only made first team All Pro twice. Compare that to Dermontti Dawson, who made it 6 times, yet has not been a finalist in his first 3 years of eligibility.

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there's something to that though IIRC the Steelers completely owned the C position on the all-pro list year after year. Him getting it over some HOF Cs or HOF caliber is quite good. Peers exceptional in this regard

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Here are the 1st team All Pro centers during Mawae's career:1994 - Dermontti Dawson1995 - Dermontti Dawson1996 - Dermontti Dawson1997 - Dermontti Dawson1998 - Dermontti Dawson1999 - Mawae2000 - Tom Nalen2001 - Mawae2002 - Barrett Robbins2003 - Tom Nalen2004 - Jeff Hartings2005 - Jeff Saturday2006 - Olin Kreutz2007 - Jeff Saturday2008 - TBDI'm not sure Mawae stands out here... since Dawson's run ended, 6-7 players have been selected 1st team All Pro in 9 seasons. The opportunity was there to dominate the selections if he was significantly better than his peers. For example, what makes him more worthy than Nalen and/or Saturday?

I don't think Dungy nor Reeves make it as a coach. Reeves is almost laughable, without any championships. Belichick, to me, is the only current head coach who would make it.

Bill Cowher might, if he comes back and has a good run. In fact, I'd probably take him over Dungy, even right now.

Borat said:

Ty Law may get a look. He certainly deserves at least some consideration.

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I tend to agree that Law and Ronde Barber will get some consideration. Kind of in line with some of the questions about defense in post #2, what is it that we think voters will use to decide about cornerbacks? Interceptions are fairly obvious... what else?Let's look at some numbers for them and Aeneas Williams, who is on my list but some may be unsure of:

Barber (from STATS, except for TDs, from pro-football-reference.com):

170 games

853 tackles

22 sacks

33 interceptions

158 passes defensed

12 forced fumbles

9 fumble recoveries

11 TDs (including 1 punt return TD)

4 Pro Bowls

3 1st Team All Pro selections

1 of 9 players and the only CB in the 20/20 club (20+ sacks and 20+ interceptions)

Team 5-6 in postseason play, including 1-0 in Super Bowls

Law (no STATS page, so from pro-football-reference.com except for passes defensed, which are from Wikipedia):

189 games

815 tackles

5 sacks

52 interceptions

161 passes defensed

6 forced fumbles

5 fumble recoveries

7 TDs

5 Pro Bowls

2 1st Team All Pro selections

Teams 12-4 in postseason play, including 3-1 in Super Bowls

Now compare them to Aeneas Williams:

211 games

794 tackles

3 sacks

55 interceptions

168 passes defensed

12 forced fumbles

23 fumble recoveries

13 TDs (including 9 interception returns, tied for #2 all-time)

8 Pro Bowls

3 1st Team All Pro selections

1990s All Decade Team

Played in 183 consecutive games, including 180 consecutive starts

Teams 3-3 in postseason play, including 0-1 in Super Bowls

I'm still not sure. I think Williams should be in for sure. And I think Barber will make it, but I'm not sure if it will be within the 10 year window. I'm less certain about Law, though I think he will merit consideration.

Bri said:

Bill Cowher, BB, BP, and Fisher are better than him IMO. Maybe Shanny, would have been definite years ago but it's fading for me.

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I think it takes multiple titles, major innovation in the game, and/or an amazing win/loss record for a coach to be worthy. Look at the list of modern era coaches I listed earlier in the thread - giants of NFL coaching and major innovators.I don't see Cowher or Fisher making it without accomplishing a lot more. I think Shanahan was in good position after the two championships but agree he has faded since, and I think he has to rebound and accomplish more at this point before he could make it. Dungy needs another title or a longer run of sustained success; given he is expected to retire, he falls short IMO. As someone else has said, I don't see Reeves as being close.Parcells and Belicheck are locks IMO.

Bri said:

I would put Bruce in over Carter or Brown.Young Bruce had 200 yard games which ...you had to have seen it to be able to understand the sheer domination. When's the last time you saw a WR get 200? For me, that added to his totals is pretty great.

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Just on sheer numbers:Bruce - 965 receptions (#5 all time), 14508 receiving yards (#3), 88 receiving TDs (tied for #9)Brown - 1094 receptions (#3 all time), 14934 receiving yards (#2), 100 receiving TDs (tied for #6)Carter - 1101 receptions (#2 all time), 13899 receiving yards (#6), 130 receiving TDs (#3)Looks like a small edge in accumulated numbers for Carter and Brown over Bruce to me... for now. However, Bruce has played 204 games, compared to 234 for Carter and 255 for Brown. Pretty close to a wash here.Carter was 1st team All Pro 2 times. Surprisingly, Bruce never was. Brown never was either, as a WR (he made it once as a kick returner).Bruce made only 4 Pro Bowls, compared to 8 for Carter and 9 for Brown. This is not a great measure, but it may show that Carter and Brown stood out more among their peers than Bruce did.Brown and Carter were on the 1990s All Decade team. Could Bruce make the 2000s All Decade team? I seriously doubt it, since 4 WRs make it, and Moss, Owens, Harrison, and Holt should all be ahead of him.Brown did not have a peak nearly as good as Bruce, but he was amazingly consistent - 9 straight seasons with 1000 yards or more. He also was more versatile than the others - he is #4 all time in punt returns and #5 all time in punt return yards, and he had 1 rushing TD, 3 PR TDs, and 1 KR TD in addition to his 100 receiving TDs.To me, I'd rank them in this order: Carter, Brown, Bruce. Personally, I think Bruce is not a given to make it, while the other two are locks.

Bri said:

I think you forgot Curtis Martin in your RB list. He's a lock. Any doubt you have about his stats being a smidge low are overcome by having exceptional character that everyone just adored and respected. I think it was BP (Herm?)that said, someone is going to feel like they let him down if they don't vote for him. If ya dwell on that quote a bit, it really puts in perspective how he affected everyone-press, coaches, and teammates. Ray Lewis will get in. Those charges might make Goodell's skin crawl when he does but...he's going in.

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Martin and Lewis were both already on my list. I agree both will make it.

Just Win Baby said:

Bri said:

Bill Cowher, BB, BP, and Fisher are better than him IMO. Maybe Shanny, would have been definite years ago but it's fading for me.

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I think it takes multiple titles, major innovation in the game, and/or an amazing win/loss record for a coach to be worthy. Look at the list of modern era coaches I listed earlier in the thread - giants of NFL coaching and major innovators.I don't see Cowher or Fisher making it without accomplishing a lot more. I think Shanahan was in good position after the two championships but agree he has faded since, and I think he has to rebound and accomplish more at this point before he could make it. Dungy needs another title or a longer run of sustained success; given he is expected to retire, he falls short IMO. As someone else has said, I don't see Reeves as being close.Parcells and Belicheck are locks IMO.

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Cowher will return IMO so he'll be out of this race before he's in it. I just can't imagine he stays retired. I think he's a real good barometer though. Probably is better than Cowher=in, not better than Cowher=out.Fisher is up there IMO. I can see how you'd disagree with his W-L record and rings and all. It's just I genuinely feel that if you polled all sorts of NFL people asking who the best coach is, you'd find he is on par with BP and BB. The respect for him around the league is real real high. He's not the GM and alot of people miss that fact. If you think of it as playing with the hand he's dealt, he's been exceptional. I think this current Titans team(which has a ton of young key players) will get him into the HOF and squash any doubts. This looks like a start for them not a one time thing then Mawae and Kerry etc retire and they stink. I think they'll be very good for a while.Oh and Dungy is one of the more popular coaches ever. That'll be worth something when votes are polled.

Bri said:

Fisher is up there IMO. I can see how you'd disagree with his W-L record and rings and all. It's just I genuinely feel that if you polled all sorts of NFL people asking who the best coach is, you'd find he is on par with BP and BB. The respect for him around the league is real real high. He's not the GM and alot of people miss that fact. If you think of it as playing with the hand he's dealt, he's been exceptional. I think this current Titans team(which has a ton of young key players) will get him into the HOF and squash any doubts. This looks like a start for them not a one time thing then Mawae and Kerry etc retire and they stink. I think they'll be very good for a while.Oh and Dungy is one of the more popular coaches ever. That'll be worth something when votes are polled.

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I agree Fisher is one of the best coaches in the league today and is well liked and respected. But that's not enough. Frankly it's not close.It's closer for Dungy, who is also well liked and respected. He has a title. He has a good record. And, let's face it, being black helps him in this situation. If he doesn't retire soon, I expect he'll eventually make it. If he does, it will be interesting to see.ETA: Again, these guys are being compared to these modern era coaches: George Allen, Paul Brown, Weeb Ewbank, Joe Gibbs, Sid Gillman, Bud Grant, George Halas, Tom Landry, Marv Levy, Vince Lombardi, John Madden, Chuck Noll, Don Shula, Hank Stram, and Bill Walsh. And Parcells and Belicheck are current peers that I think are more deserving.

Just Win Baby said:

Bri said:

I would put Bruce in over Carter or Brown.Young Bruce had 200 yard games which ...you had to have seen it to be able to understand the sheer domination. When's the last time you saw a WR get 200? For me, that added to his totals is pretty great.

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Just on sheer numbers:Bruce - 965 receptions (#5 all time), 14508 receiving yards (#3), 88 receiving TDs (tied for #9)Brown - 1094 receptions (#3 all time), 14934 receiving yards (#2), 100 receiving TDs (tied for #6)Carter - 1101 receptions (#2 all time), 13899 receiving yards (#6), 130 receiving TDs (#3)Looks like a small edge in accumulated numbers for Carter and Brown over Bruce to me... for now. However, Bruce has played 204 games, compared to 234 for Carter and 255 for Brown. Pretty close to a wash here.Carter was 1st team All Pro 2 times. Surprisingly, Bruce never was. Brown never was either, as a WR (he made it once as a kick returner).Bruce made only 4 Pro Bowls, compared to 8 for Carter and 9 for Brown. This is not a great measure, but it may show that Carter and Brown stood out more among their peers than Bruce did.Brown and Carter were on the 1990s All Decade team. Could Bruce make the 2000s All Decade team? I seriously doubt it, since 4 WRs make it, and Moss, Owens, Harrison, and Holt should all be ahead of him.Brown did not have a peak nearly as good as Bruce, but he was amazingly consistent - 9 straight seasons with 1000 yards or more. He also was more versatile than the others - he is #4 all time in punt returns and #5 all time in punt return yards, and he had 1 rushing TD, 3 PR TDs, and 1 KR TD in addition to his 100 receiving TDs.To me, I'd rank them in this order: Carter, Brown, Bruce. Personally, I think Bruce is not a given to make it, while the other two are locks.

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I could see the "always second fiddle" argument with Bruce, definitely. One thing that exemplifies how I think ya gotta almost feel bad for him is that 17 or 1800 yard year. He was not all pro and had that many receiving yards. Do you believe that? How thrilled would you be if your WR had that many yards? How many times has it been done since? And yet, then, it wasn't good enough. To reiterate:119 catches for 1781 yards and 13 TDs wasn't good enough for All Pro or even Pro Bowl(rec yards)The second best single season in NFL history isn't? It's just mind boggling really. 1995 was an incredible year though and Herman and Irvin had 1600+ yards. Robert Brooks and Perriman had roughly 1500 and my oh my what a year for WRs. In history talk, that year is glossed over for Bruce and I just don't think it's fair at all.

Bri said:

Just Win Baby said:

Bri said:

I would put Bruce in over Carter or Brown.Young Bruce had 200 yard games which ...you had to have seen it to be able to understand the sheer domination. When's the last time you saw a WR get 200? For me, that added to his totals is pretty great.

Click to expand...

Just on sheer numbers:Bruce - 965 receptions (#5 all time), 14508 receiving yards (#3), 88 receiving TDs (tied for #9)Brown - 1094 receptions (#3 all time), 14934 receiving yards (#2), 100 receiving TDs (tied for #6)Carter - 1101 receptions (#2 all time), 13899 receiving yards (#6), 130 receiving TDs (#3)Looks like a small edge in accumulated numbers for Carter and Brown over Bruce to me... for now. However, Bruce has played 204 games, compared to 234 for Carter and 255 for Brown. Pretty close to a wash here.Carter was 1st team All Pro 2 times. Surprisingly, Bruce never was. Brown never was either, as a WR (he made it once as a kick returner).Bruce made only 4 Pro Bowls, compared to 8 for Carter and 9 for Brown. This is not a great measure, but it may show that Carter and Brown stood out more among their peers than Bruce did.Brown and Carter were on the 1990s All Decade team. Could Bruce make the 2000s All Decade team? I seriously doubt it, since 4 WRs make it, and Moss, Owens, Harrison, and Holt should all be ahead of him.Brown did not have a peak nearly as good as Bruce, but he was amazingly consistent - 9 straight seasons with 1000 yards or more. He also was more versatile than the others - he is #4 all time in punt returns and #5 all time in punt return yards, and he had 1 rushing TD, 3 PR TDs, and 1 KR TD in addition to his 100 receiving TDs.To me, I'd rank them in this order: Carter, Brown, Bruce. Personally, I think Bruce is not a given to make it, while the other two are locks.

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I could see the "always second fiddle" argument with Bruce, definitely. One thing that exemplifies how I think ya gotta almost feel bad for him is that 17 or 1800 yard year. He was not all pro and had that many receiving yards. Do you believe that? How thrilled would you be if your WR had that many yards? How many times has it been done since? And yet, then, it wasn't good enough. To reiterate:119 catches for 1781 yards and 13 TDs wasn't good enough for All Pro or even Pro Bowl(rec yards)The second best single season in NFL history isn't? It's just mind boggling really. 1995 was an incredible year though and Herman and Irvin had 1600+ yards. Robert Brooks and Perriman had roughly 1500 and my oh my what a year for WRs. In history talk, that year is glossed over for Bruce and I just don't think it's fair at all.

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I agree it is surprising that a year that good was not rewarded with a 1st team All Pro selection. But it's not like he got completely screwed:Rice had 122/1848/15 receiving... and added 5/36/1 rushing... for a playoff teamMoore had 123/1686/14 receiving... for a playoff teamBruce had 119/1781/13 receiving... for a 7-9 non-playoff teamRice and Moore were AP 1st Team All Pro. Rice was clearly better. It was close between Moore and Bruce... close enough that playoffs may have made the difference.As for Bruce's overall career accomplishments, even if he was 1st team All Pro that year, it would still be only one selection, which would leave him lacking in comparison to many of his peers.

Just Win Baby said:

Borat said:

Ty Law may get a look. He certainly deserves at least some consideration.

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I tend to agree that Law and Ronde Barber will get some consideration. Kind of in line with some of the questions about defense in post #2, what is it that we think voters will use to decide about cornerbacks? Interceptions are fairly obvious... what else?Let's look at some numbers for them and Aeneas Williams, who is on my list but some may be unsure of:

Barber (from STATS, except for TDs, from pro-football-reference.com):

170 games

853 tackles

22 sacks

33 interceptions

158 passes defensed

12 forced fumbles

9 fumble recoveries

11 TDs (including 1 punt return TD)

4 Pro Bowls

3 1st Team All Pro selections

1 of 9 players and the only CB in the 20/20 club (20+ sacks and 20+ interceptions)

Team 5-6 in postseason play, including 1-0 in Super Bowls

Law (no STATS page, so from pro-football-reference.com except for passes defensed, which are from Wikipedia):

189 games

815 tackles

5 sacks

52 interceptions

161 passes defensed

6 forced fumbles

5 fumble recoveries

7 TDs

5 Pro Bowls

2 1st Team All Pro selections

Teams 12-4 in postseason play, including 3-1 in Super Bowls

Now compare them to Aeneas Williams:

211 games

794 tackles

3 sacks

55 interceptions

168 passes defensed

12 forced fumbles

23 fumble recoveries

13 TDs (including 9 interception returns, tied for #2 all-time)

8 Pro Bowls

3 1st Team All Pro selections

1990s All Decade Team

Played in 183 consecutive games, including 180 consecutive starts

Teams 3-3 in postseason play, including 0-1 in Super Bowls

I'm still not sure. I think Williams should be in for sure. And I think Barber will make it, but I'm not sure if it will be within the 10 year window. I'm less certain about Law, though I think he will merit consideration.

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Definatley agree on Williams, he's in for me.

Just Win Baby said:

Bri said:

Just Win Baby said:

Bri said:

I would put Bruce in over Carter or Brown.Young Bruce had 200 yard games which ...you had to have seen it to be able to understand the sheer domination. When's the last time you saw a WR get 200? For me, that added to his totals is pretty great.

Click to expand...

Just on sheer numbers:Bruce - 965 receptions (#5 all time), 14508 receiving yards (#3), 88 receiving TDs (tied for #9)Brown - 1094 receptions (#3 all time), 14934 receiving yards (#2), 100 receiving TDs (tied for #6)Carter - 1101 receptions (#2 all time), 13899 receiving yards (#6), 130 receiving TDs (#3)Looks like a small edge in accumulated numbers for Carter and Brown over Bruce to me... for now. However, Bruce has played 204 games, compared to 234 for Carter and 255 for Brown. Pretty close to a wash here.Carter was 1st team All Pro 2 times. Surprisingly, Bruce never was. Brown never was either, as a WR (he made it once as a kick returner).Bruce made only 4 Pro Bowls, compared to 8 for Carter and 9 for Brown. This is not a great measure, but it may show that Carter and Brown stood out more among their peers than Bruce did.Brown and Carter were on the 1990s All Decade team. Could Bruce make the 2000s All Decade team? I seriously doubt it, since 4 WRs make it, and Moss, Owens, Harrison, and Holt should all be ahead of him.Brown did not have a peak nearly as good as Bruce, but he was amazingly consistent - 9 straight seasons with 1000 yards or more. He also was more versatile than the others - he is #4 all time in punt returns and #5 all time in punt return yards, and he had 1 rushing TD, 3 PR TDs, and 1 KR TD in addition to his 100 receiving TDs.To me, I'd rank them in this order: Carter, Brown, Bruce. Personally, I think Bruce is not a given to make it, while the other two are locks.

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I could see the "always second fiddle" argument with Bruce, definitely. One thing that exemplifies how I think ya gotta almost feel bad for him is that 17 or 1800 yard year. He was not all pro and had that many receiving yards. Do you believe that? How thrilled would you be if your WR had that many yards? How many times has it been done since? And yet, then, it wasn't good enough. To reiterate:119 catches for 1781 yards and 13 TDs wasn't good enough for All Pro or even Pro Bowl(rec yards)The second best single season in NFL history isn't? It's just mind boggling really. 1995 was an incredible year though and Herman and Irvin had 1600+ yards. Robert Brooks and Perriman had roughly 1500 and my oh my what a year for WRs. In history talk, that year is glossed over for Bruce and I just don't think it's fair at all.

Click to expand...

I agree it is surprising that a year that good was not rewarded with a 1st team All Pro selection. But it's not like he got completely screwed:Rice had 122/1848/15 receiving... and added 5/36/1 rushing... for a playoff teamMoore had 123/1686/14 receiving... for a playoff teamBruce had 119/1781/13 receiving... for a 7-9 non-playoff teamRice and Moore were AP 1st Team All Pro. Rice was clearly better. It was close between Moore and Bruce... close enough that playoffs may have made the difference.As for Bruce's overall career accomplishments, even if he was 1st team All Pro that year, it would still be only one selection, which would leave him lacking in comparison to many of his peers.

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He also followed that up by leading the NFL in receiving yards the next season and still didn't get All-Pro.For some odd reason, he didn't get respect from voters back then. It's clearly not for lack of accomplishment.I'm not saying there's some conspiracy theory. I am saying that will never happen again.No way someone gets almost 1800 yards receiving one year, leads the league in receiving the next, and doesn't get All Pro in either.Ya got two snubs or would have earned any other times or whatever we call em', 4 pro bowls, a 3rd in the league in receiving which wasn't such a big deal because...the other WR on his team led the league, a year with 1100 and 12 TDs.....there's plenty of meat there.Career accomplishments- will be 2nd most receiving yards for his career. If Rice is the greatest ever, that no one will ever match. Then there should be some merit to finishing 2nd.

Just Win Baby said:

Bri said:

Fisher is up there IMO. I can see how you'd disagree with his W-L record and rings and all. It's just I genuinely feel that if you polled all sorts of NFL people asking who the best coach is, you'd find he is on par with BP and BB. The respect for him around the league is real real high. He's not the GM and alot of people miss that fact. If you think of it as playing with the hand he's dealt, he's been exceptional. I think this current Titans team(which has a ton of young key players) will get him into the HOF and squash any doubts. This looks like a start for them not a one time thing then Mawae and Kerry etc retire and they stink. I think they'll be very good for a while.

Oh and Dungy is one of the more popular coaches ever. That'll be worth something when votes are polled.

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I agree Fisher is one of the best coaches in the league today and is well liked and respected. But that's not enough. Frankly it's not close.It's closer for Dungy, who is also well liked and respected. He has a title. He has a good record. And, let's face it, being black helps him in this situation. If he doesn't retire soon, I expect he'll eventually make it. If he does, it will be interesting to see.

ETA: Again, these guys are being compared to these modern era coaches: George Allen, Paul Brown, Weeb Ewbank, Joe Gibbs, Sid Gillman, Bud Grant, George Halas, Tom Landry, Marv Levy, Vince Lombardi, John Madden, Chuck Noll, Don Shula, Hank Stram, and Bill Walsh. And Parcells and Belicheck are current peers that I think are more deserving.

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Just to clarify something, I think this Titans team is special and will put him over the top with a number of good years. I believe you're thinking of right now. I'm not so sure about the last part. In the free agency era, winning with 2 or 3 rebuilt teams will be quite different than many of those mentioned. He has lost some awesome team players that will likely go in that ring of honor. 3 were inducted recently. Probably 2-3 more linemen soon. Some real solid LBers. Lost Kearse for a while which was big back then. The turnover he has endured is very high.

And now, he's got a tremendous offensive line. He benched Young. Tough to name another franchise that benches a top pick these days for an old codger like Collins. Pacman sent walking. CJ pick was ridiculed but, look how he's used him.

Who he has to work with, he coaches well and gets results. I believe that'll hold alot of merit soon enough, if not already. IMO It's not building dynasties like in the old days so there's gotta be an adjustment in how we think of a coach-especially one that's not GM.

Bri said:

Just Win Baby said:

Bri said:

Fisher is up there IMO. I can see how you'd disagree with his W-L record and rings and all. It's just I genuinely feel that if you polled all sorts of NFL people asking who the best coach is, you'd find he is on par with BP and BB. The respect for him around the league is real real high. He's not the GM and alot of people miss that fact. If you think of it as playing with the hand he's dealt, he's been exceptional. I think this current Titans team(which has a ton of young key players) will get him into the HOF and squash any doubts. This looks like a start for them not a one time thing then Mawae and Kerry etc retire and they stink. I think they'll be very good for a while.

Oh and Dungy is one of the more popular coaches ever. That'll be worth something when votes are polled.

Click to expand...

I agree Fisher is one of the best coaches in the league today and is well liked and respected. But that's not enough. Frankly it's not close.It's closer for Dungy, who is also well liked and respected. He has a title. He has a good record. And, let's face it, being black helps him in this situation. If he doesn't retire soon, I expect he'll eventually make it. If he does, it will be interesting to see.

ETA: Again, these guys are being compared to these modern era coaches: George Allen, Paul Brown, Weeb Ewbank, Joe Gibbs, Sid Gillman, Bud Grant, George Halas, Tom Landry, Marv Levy, Vince Lombardi, John Madden, Chuck Noll, Don Shula, Hank Stram, and Bill Walsh. And Parcells and Belicheck are current peers that I think are more deserving.

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Just to clarify something, I think this Titans team is special and will put him over the top with a number of good years. I believe you're thinking of right now. I'm not so sure about the last part. In the free agency era, winning with 2 or 3 rebuilt teams will be quite different than many of those mentioned. He has lost some awesome team players that will likely go in that ring of honor. 3 were inducted recently. Probably 2-3 more linemen soon. Some real solid LBers. Lost Kearse for a while which was big back then. The turnover he has endured is very high.

And now, he's got a tremendous offensive line. He benched Young. Tough to name another franchise that benches a top pick these days for an old codger like Collins. Pacman sent walking. CJ pick was ridiculed but, look how he's used him.

Who he has to work with, he coaches well and gets results. I believe that'll hold alot of merit soon enough, if not already. IMO It's not building dynasties like in the old days so there's gotta be an adjustment in how we think of a coach-especially one that's not GM.

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Bri, I think Fisher is a great coach.But why don't you be specific. Which of the 17 other modern era coaches I named would you rank below Fisher today? For that matter, why do you think Fisher is more worthy than Holmgren and/or Dungy? I can't see even considering ranking Fisher above any of them right now or anytime in the near future.

If you're talking about many years from now, then we'll have to wait to see what happens, although he still has much more to accomplish than any of Parcells, Belicheck, Dungy, and Holmgren to merit strong consideration.

Bri said:

Just Win Baby said:

Bri said:

Just Win Baby said:

Bri said:

I would put Bruce in over Carter or Brown.Young Bruce had 200 yard games which ...you had to have seen it to be able to understand the sheer domination. When's the last time you saw a WR get 200? For me, that added to his totals is pretty great.

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Just on sheer numbers:Bruce - 965 receptions (#5 all time), 14508 receiving yards (#3), 88 receiving TDs (tied for #9)Brown - 1094 receptions (#3 all time), 14934 receiving yards (#2), 100 receiving TDs (tied for #6)Carter - 1101 receptions (#2 all time), 13899 receiving yards (#6), 130 receiving TDs (#3)Looks like a small edge in accumulated numbers for Carter and Brown over Bruce to me... for now. However, Bruce has played 204 games, compared to 234 for Carter and 255 for Brown. Pretty close to a wash here.Carter was 1st team All Pro 2 times. Surprisingly, Bruce never was. Brown never was either, as a WR (he made it once as a kick returner).Bruce made only 4 Pro Bowls, compared to 8 for Carter and 9 for Brown. This is not a great measure, but it may show that Carter and Brown stood out more among their peers than Bruce did.Brown and Carter were on the 1990s All Decade team. Could Bruce make the 2000s All Decade team? I seriously doubt it, since 4 WRs make it, and Moss, Owens, Harrison, and Holt should all be ahead of him.Brown did not have a peak nearly as good as Bruce, but he was amazingly consistent - 9 straight seasons with 1000 yards or more. He also was more versatile than the others - he is #4 all time in punt returns and #5 all time in punt return yards, and he had 1 rushing TD, 3 PR TDs, and 1 KR TD in addition to his 100 receiving TDs.To me, I'd rank them in this order: Carter, Brown, Bruce. Personally, I think Bruce is not a given to make it, while the other two are locks.

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I could see the "always second fiddle" argument with Bruce, definitely. One thing that exemplifies how I think ya gotta almost feel bad for him is that 17 or 1800 yard year. He was not all pro and had that many receiving yards. Do you believe that? How thrilled would you be if your WR had that many yards? How many times has it been done since? And yet, then, it wasn't good enough. To reiterate:119 catches for 1781 yards and 13 TDs wasn't good enough for All Pro or even Pro Bowl(rec yards)The second best single season in NFL history isn't? It's just mind boggling really. 1995 was an incredible year though and Herman and Irvin had 1600+ yards. Robert Brooks and Perriman had roughly 1500 and my oh my what a year for WRs. In history talk, that year is glossed over for Bruce and I just don't think it's fair at all.

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I agree it is surprising that a year that good was not rewarded with a 1st team All Pro selection. But it's not like he got completely screwed:Rice had 122/1848/15 receiving... and added 5/36/1 rushing... for a playoff teamMoore had 123/1686/14 receiving... for a playoff teamBruce had 119/1781/13 receiving... for a 7-9 non-playoff teamRice and Moore were AP 1st Team All Pro. Rice was clearly better. It was close between Moore and Bruce... close enough that playoffs may have made the difference.As for Bruce's overall career accomplishments, even if he was 1st team All Pro that year, it would still be only one selection, which would leave him lacking in comparison to many of his peers.

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He also followed that up by leading the NFL in receiving yards the next season and still didn't get All-Pro.For some odd reason, he didn't get respect from voters back then. It's clearly not for lack of accomplishment.I'm not saying there's some conspiracy theory. I am saying that will never happen again.No way someone gets almost 1800 yards receiving one year, leads the league in receiving the next, and doesn't get All Pro in either.Ya got two snubs or would have earned any other times or whatever we call em', 4 pro bowls, a 3rd in the league in receiving which wasn't such a big deal because...the other WR on his team led the league, a year with 1100 and 12 TDs.....there's plenty of meat there.Career accomplishments- will be 2nd most receiving yards for his career. If Rice is the greatest ever, that no one will ever match. Then there should be some merit to finishing 2nd.

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You are overstating the no respect card here IMO. I already showed that he wasn't snubbed in 1995. In 1996, compare these seasons:Bruce 84/1338/7 receivingRice 108/1254/8 receiving and 11/77/1 rushingMoore 106/1296/9 receivingTony Martin 85/1171/14 receivingPickens 100/1180/12 receivingRice and Moore were AP 1st team All Pro. Martin and Pickens were AP 2nd team All Pro. I don't see a snub there. It was very competitive. Rice had 7 fewer total yards but 2 more TDs and 24 more catches. Moore had 42 fewer yards, but 2 more TDs and 22 more catches. Martin and Pickens had ~160 fewer yards, but Martin had 7 more TDs (double) and Pickens had 5 more TDs and 16 more catches. 1995 and 1996 were just very competitive years for strong WR performances.Agree there is merit to finishing second in receiving yards. I think Bruce should get in. I said above I wasn't sure, but I'm going to add him to my list. However, your same logic applies to Tim Brown as well. He is currently #2 in receiving yards to Jerry Rice, and he has been for years. And there should be no question about Carter, given he is also top 6 in the big 3 receiving categories. Bruce is the only one of the 3 that is not top 6 in all 3 categories, so I stand by my ranking of the other two above Bruce.

Just Win Baby said:

I agree Fisher is one of the best coaches in the league today and is well liked and respected. But that's not enough. Frankly it's not close.

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Just Win Baby said:

Drunken Cowboy said:

I would think Dermontti Dawson makes it.

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Within the 10 year window? He has been eligible for 3 years and has not been a finalist. I agree he merits consideration, but there are a lot of really good OL that will become eligible over the next 10 years.

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I would think the best center of all time would easily get in at some point soon.

Borat said:

I don't think Dungy nor Reeves make it as a coach. Reeves is almost laughable, without any championships. Belichick, to me, is the only current head coach who would make it.Bill Cowher might, if he comes back and has a good run. In fact, I'd probably take him over Dungy, even right now.

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Marv Levy? Reeves is 8th in all-time coaching victories (regular season). Names above him are ones like Shula, Landy, Halas, Lambeau, Brown, Noll. Schotty is also on that list Point being, Reeves was a heck of a coach. Took two franchises to the SB. Coached in 4 SB's...

by_the_sea_wannabe said:

Just Win Baby said:

Drunken Cowboy said:

I would think Dermontti Dawson makes it.

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Within the 10 year window? He has been eligible for 3 years and has not been a finalist. I agree he merits consideration, but there are a lot of really good OL that will become eligible over the next 10 years.

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I would think the best center of all time would easily get in at some point soon.

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Since you appear to be saying Dawson is the best ever, please make a case for that stance. I'd love to understand his case for being better than Mel Hein, Jim Otto, Mike Webster, Jim Ringo, Jim Langer, and Dwight Stephenson. Not that he has to be better than them to merit HOF induction - that's a high standard - but that's what you appear to be claiming here.