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QB Joe Flacco, IND (2 Viewers)

fred_1_15301 said:
TDorBust said:
fred_1_15301 said:
After the first drive I thought Flacco was in for a rough game but he played great. The guy saves his best for the biggest stage. Can't think of too many teams who wouldn't want a QB like this at the helm.
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Packers, Broncos, Patriots, Seahawks, Steelers, Giants, Colts, Lions, Saints, Falcons, Cowboys, Chargers, Bengals

All those teams or about over 40% of the teams would rather have their QB than Flacco in my mind. So not sure who you would take off my list? Possibly Lions? Bengals because they have had issues in the playoffs? Giants because Eli can be touchy at time? Cowboys because they haven't gotten to the playoffs?

I should add you don't get to bring the defense with Flacco he is the only piece these teams would get...
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You can add whatever you want. I'll give you Packers, Broncos (although I think Manning is close to done), Pats, Seahawks, Steelers, Saints and Cowboys. You would really take Eli, Stafford, Ryan, Rivers or Dalton (GASP!!!) over Flacco?
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I am saying those teams would yes if it were me I would take Eli and Dalton. Eli because he has shown he can win the big game 2x and Dalton because he is 2 years younger. The rest are really a push and you could flip a coin between them and Flacco for the most part.

Flacco is a middle of the road QB who seems to have the opposite luck of most QBs in that he gets all the credit in the world even when coming up short in the post season.

Just take a look back at his playoff appearances:

2009: 2-1 with 1 TD over 3 games wins with 9+10 points given up / loss 23 points given up and scored 14 (3 INT)

2010: 1-1 with 0 TD over 2 games win was with 14 points given up / loss 20 points given up and scored 3 (2 INT)

2011: 1-1 with 3 TDs over 2 games and win was with 7 points given up / loss 31 points given up and scored 24 (1 INT)

2012: 1-1 with 4 TDs over 2 games and win was with 13 points given up / loss 23 points given up and scored 21 (1 INT)

2013: 4-0 with 11 TDs over 4 games and wins with 9, 35(DEN), 13, 31(SB vs SF) given up

2014: No Playoffs

2015: 1-0 with 2 TDs with 17 points given up

Flacco is a good QB and Baltimore is forced to "overpay" because the flip side is you could end up like Arizona and nothing at QB in the playoffs. He has won a total of 3 games where he had to lead his team to more than 2 TDs to win while 7 of his wins have come when his defense basically dominates the game.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FlacJo00/gamelog/post/

 
TDorBust said:
fred_1_15301 said:
TDorBust said:
fred_1_15301 said:
After the first drive I thought Flacco was in for a rough game but he played great. The guy saves his best for the biggest stage. Can't think of too many teams who wouldn't want a QB like this at the helm.
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Packers, Broncos, Patriots, Seahawks, Steelers, Giants, Colts, Lions, Saints, Falcons, Cowboys, Chargers, Bengals

All those teams or about over 40% of the teams would rather have their QB than Flacco in my mind. So not sure who you would take off my list? Possibly Lions? Bengals because they have had issues in the playoffs? Giants because Eli can be touchy at time? Cowboys because they haven't gotten to the playoffs?

I should add you don't get to bring the defense with Flacco he is the only piece these teams would get...
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You can add whatever you want. I'll give you Packers, Broncos (although I think Manning is close to done), Pats, Seahawks, Steelers, Saints and Cowboys. You would really take Eli, Stafford, Ryan, Rivers or Dalton (GASP!!!) over Flacco?
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I am saying those teams would yes if it were me I would take Eli and Dalton. Eli because he has shown he can win the big game 2x and Dalton because he is 2 years younger. The rest are really a push and you could flip a coin between them and Flacco for the most part.

Flacco is a middle of the road QB who seems to have the opposite luck of most QBs in that he gets all the credit in the world even when coming up short in the post season.

Just take a look back at his playoff appearances:

2009: 2-1 with 1 TD over 3 games wins with 9+10 points given up / loss 23 points given up and scored 14 (3 INT)

2010: 1-1 with 0 TD over 2 games win was with 14 points given up / loss 20 points given up and scored 3 (2 INT)

2011: 1-1 with 3 TDs over 2 games and win was with 7 points given up / loss 31 points given up and scored 24 (1 INT)

2012: 1-1 with 4 TDs over 2 games and win was with 13 points given up / loss 23 points given up and scored 21 (1 INT)

2013: 4-0 with 11 TDs over 4 games and wins with 9, 35(DEN), 13, 31(SB vs SF) given up

2014: No Playoffs

2015: 1-0 with 2 TDs with 17 points given up

Flacco is a good QB and Baltimore is forced to "overpay" because the flip side is you could end up like Arizona and nothing at QB in the playoffs. He has won a total of 3 games where he had to lead his team to more than 2 TDs to win while 7 of his wins have come when his defense basically dominates the game.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FlacJo00/gamelog/post/
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:goodposting:

 
TDorBust said:
fred_1_15301 said:
TDorBust said:
fred_1_15301 said:
After the first drive I thought Flacco was in for a rough game but he played great. The guy saves his best for the biggest stage. Can't think of too many teams who wouldn't want a QB like this at the helm.
Click to expand...
Packers, Broncos, Patriots, Seahawks, Steelers, Giants, Colts, Lions, Saints, Falcons, Cowboys, Chargers, Bengals

All those teams or about over 40% of the teams would rather have their QB than Flacco in my mind. So not sure who you would take off my list? Possibly Lions? Bengals because they have had issues in the playoffs? Giants because Eli can be touchy at time? Cowboys because they haven't gotten to the playoffs?

I should add you don't get to bring the defense with Flacco he is the only piece these teams would get...
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You can add whatever you want. I'll give you Packers, Broncos (although I think Manning is close to done), Pats, Seahawks, Steelers, Saints and Cowboys. You would really take Eli, Stafford, Ryan, Rivers or Dalton (GASP!!!) over Flacco?
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I am saying those teams would yes if it were me I would take Eli and Dalton. Eli because he has shown he can win the big game 2x and Dalton because he is 2 years younger. The rest are really a push and you could flip a coin between them and Flacco for the most part.

Flacco is a middle of the road QB who seems to have the opposite luck of most QBs in that he gets all the credit in the world even when coming up short in the post season.

Just take a look back at his playoff appearances:

2009: 2-1 with 1 TD over 3 games wins with 9+10 points given up / loss 23 points given up and scored 14 (3 INT)

2010: 1-1 with 0 TD over 2 games win was with 14 points given up / loss 20 points given up and scored 3 (2 INT)

2011: 1-1 with 3 TDs over 2 games and win was with 7 points given up / loss 31 points given up and scored 24 (1 INT)

2012: 1-1 with 4 TDs over 2 games and win was with 13 points given up / loss 23 points given up and scored 21 (1 INT)

2013: 4-0 with 11 TDs over 4 games and wins with 9, 35(DEN), 13, 31(SB vs SF) given up

2014: No Playoffs

2015: 1-0 with 2 TDs with 17 points given up

Flacco is a good QB and Baltimore is forced to "overpay" because the flip side is you could end up like Arizona and nothing at QB in the playoffs. He has won a total of 3 games where he had to lead his team to more than 2 TDs to win while 7 of his wins have come when his defense basically dominates the game.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FlacJo00/gamelog/post/
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Crazysauce. Eli's +1 SB win gets him a nod over Flacco, but Flacco's +1 SB win (oh, and 9 playoff wins to 0) doesn't get him a nod over Andy friggin' Dalton cause he's 2 years (LOL) younger.

Flacco was drafted in 2008 and made the playoffs his first two years, and struggled from a personal standpoint there.... 1 TD, 6 INTs, zero games over 200 yards passing. Only one game above 50% completion percentage. His last three playoff appearances, not including this year, he's 18 TDs, 2 INTs. His team has scored 30, 24, 20, 20, 24, 38, 28, 34 in those eight games, for an average of 27.25 PPG. For reference, there were only six teams this year to average more than 27.25 PPG, and that includes a full schedule including some mediocre teams, not 8 playoff level teams.

Andy Dalton? Just stop.

 
jonboltz said:
TDorBust said:
fred_1_15301 said:
TDorBust said:
fred_1_15301 said:
After the first drive I thought Flacco was in for a rough game but he played great. The guy saves his best for the biggest stage. Can't think of too many teams who wouldn't want a QB like this at the helm.
Click to expand...
Packers, Broncos, Patriots, Seahawks, Steelers, Giants, Colts, Lions, Saints, Falcons, Cowboys, Chargers, Bengals

All those teams or about over 40% of the teams would rather have their QB than Flacco in my mind. So not sure who you would take off my list? Possibly Lions? Bengals because they have had issues in the playoffs? Giants because Eli can be touchy at time? Cowboys because they haven't gotten to the playoffs?

I should add you don't get to bring the defense with Flacco he is the only piece these teams would get...
Click to expand...
You can add whatever you want. I'll give you Packers, Broncos (although I think Manning is close to done), Pats, Seahawks, Steelers, Saints and Cowboys. You would really take Eli, Stafford, Ryan, Rivers or Dalton (GASP!!!) over Flacco?
Click to expand...
I am saying those teams would yes if it were me I would take Eli and Dalton. Eli because he has shown he can win the big game 2x and Dalton because he is 2 years younger. The rest are really a push and you could flip a coin between them and Flacco for the most part.

Flacco is a middle of the road QB who seems to have the opposite luck of most QBs in that he gets all the credit in the world even when coming up short in the post season.

Just take a look back at his playoff appearances:

2009: 2-1 with 1 TD over 3 games wins with 9+10 points given up / loss 23 points given up and scored 14 (3 INT)

2010: 1-1 with 0 TD over 2 games win was with 14 points given up / loss 20 points given up and scored 3 (2 INT)

2011: 1-1 with 3 TDs over 2 games and win was with 7 points given up / loss 31 points given up and scored 24 (1 INT)

2012: 1-1 with 4 TDs over 2 games and win was with 13 points given up / loss 23 points given up and scored 21 (1 INT)

2013: 4-0 with 11 TDs over 4 games and wins with 9, 35(DEN), 13, 31(SB vs SF) given up

2014: No Playoffs

2015: 1-0 with 2 TDs with 17 points given up

Flacco is a good QB and Baltimore is forced to "overpay" because the flip side is you could end up like Arizona and nothing at QB in the playoffs. He has won a total of 3 games where he had to lead his team to more than 2 TDs to win while 7 of his wins have come when his defense basically dominates the game.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FlacJo00/gamelog/post/
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Crazysauce. Eli's +1 SB win gets him a nod over Flacco, but Flacco's +1 SB win (oh, and 9 playoff wins to 0) doesn't get him a nod over Andy friggin' Dalton cause he's 2 years (LOL) younger.

Flacco was drafted in 2008 and made the playoffs his first two years, and struggled from a personal standpoint there.... 1 TD, 6 INTs, zero games over 200 yards passing. Only one game above 50% completion percentage. His last three playoff appearances, not including this year, he's 18 TDs, 2 INTs. His team has scored 30, 24, 20, 20, 24, 38, 28, 34 in those eight games, for an average of 27.25 PPG. For reference, there were only six teams this year to average more than 27.25 PPG, and that includes a full schedule including some mediocre teams, not 8 playoff level teams.

Andy Dalton? Just stop.
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I think you forget this is just Dalton's 4th year and Flacco made his SB run in year 5 when he made a jump to be an above average playoff QB. Flacco then went on to completely miss the playoffs last year. I stand by Dalton because of the fact that #1 the Bengals have not won a playoff game since like 1990 and #2 Dalton looks very similar to Flacco at this point in his career historically.

Also I am not trying to get down to the nitty gritty of which QB I truly would want between Flacco and Eli or Flacco and Dalton because they are really all about equal in my mind with different strengths/weaknesses I just had pulled these two out as the reasons that made me think I would take them over Flacco. In the end all three of them are not elite and are in the weird 3rd tier of QBs who all can get hot and win a Super Bowl Flacco happens to be at the top or towards the top of that list because he has been able to get hot at the right time 2 years ago.

I am not taking anything away from what he did to win a Super Bowl but his team completely missed the playoffs last year. My original point was really to show Flacco while he did have success 1 post season has not really lit it up any other time. He seems to be getting a free pass by the media because when they look back at his last postseason appearance it ends with a Super Bowl so he doesn't get any of the negative press of losing in the post season last year would have brought on him. He also gets the benefit of a lot of wins in the post season that he realistically did not have to perform at an extremely high level.

 
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Flacco isn't good at anything except launching balls into orbit after handing the ball off a couple of times.

He's Cutler on a better team, with a better coach and gm. They've never had to rely on him to do anything more than manage games and have built their team accordingly.

 
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Flacco is a solid game manager who tends to hold up quite well under pressure and throws a decent deep ball. Overall, not a world-beating QB, but above average for the NFL standards.

More important practically is that having Flacco at QB is perfectly sufficient to get you to the playoffs (and beyond) if you have a team built around other strengths. Just don't expect him to win by himself more than the random game here and there.

 
Yea, it's really just luck and great defense that have made him the winningest playoff road qb of all time.

Stop thinking of football in terms of fantasy and try watching the games. A qb that can go into another stadium, especially during the playoffs, and win is huge, that's why it doesn't happen all that much. If you don't count Joe's first two seasons, he's been really good in the playoffs with few real offensive weapons.

Anyone who would prefer to have Stafford, Romo, Dalton, or Ryan qb their team during a playoff game rather than Joe needs to have their head examined.

 
James Daulton said:
Yea, it's really just luck and great defense that have made him the winningest playoff road qb of all time.
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Exactly.I mean it can't be a coincidence that he's literally the definition of mediocrity in every regular season game. Sample size not big enough for you?

 
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Run It Up said:
James Daulton said:
Yea, it's really just luck and great defense that have made him the winningest playoff road qb of all time.
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Exactly.I mean it can't be a coincidence that he's literally the definition of mediocrity in every regular season game. Sample size not big enough for you?
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He has twice as many playoff wins as any other qb in the league since he entered. 8 on the road. I just don't know what it takes to satisfy people. Romo puts up gaudy stats during the regular season and ####s the bed during the postseason. Flacco does the opposite. Which would you rather have on your team?

 
Run It Up said:
I mean it can't be a coincidence that he's literally the definition of mediocrity in every regular season game. Sample size not big enough for you?
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I'd love to know how a guy who is mediocre in every regular season game ended up with 27 touchdowns and 12 interceptions this past season.

 
This conversation cracks me up. So spygate aside, defense and Vinatieri just made Tom Brady mediocre. And his regular seasons...wow!

 
Flacco is on a historically dominant string of post-season play right now, dating back to 2010 when he was just 26. Here are his full playoff stats during that string:

2010
@KC 25 of 34, 265 yards, 2 TDs, 0 INTs, 115.4 rating (W)
@PIT 16 of 30, 125, 1-1, 61.1 (L)

2011
Hou 14 of 27, 176, 2-0, 97.1 (W)
@NE 22 of 36, 306, 2-1, 95.4 (L)

2012
IND 12 of 23, 282, 2-0, 125.6 (W)
@DEN 18 of 34, 331, 3-0, 116.2 (W)
@NE 21 of 36, 240, 3-0, 106.2 (W)
SF 22 of 33, 287, 3-0, 124.2 (W)

2013
@PIT 18 of 29, 259, 2-0, 114.0 (W)

That’s a 7-2 string over four postseasons, a 20-2 TD to INT ratio, and a 104.5 QB rating. He single-handedly carried them to their Super Bowl title, as the Ravens pass D was next to last in the NFL in 2012, and gave up 35 points to Denver and 31 to SF in the post-season.

He’s now played 5 straight post-season games with a QB rating over 100, and has only 1 game below a 95 QB rating in 9 post-season games since 2010 (despite playing only 2 of those games at home).

He’s in the Top 50 of all-time regular season wins by a QB, and now in the Top 10 of post-season wins. He’s also coming off the best regular season of his career and still isn’t 30.

 
The_Man said:
Flacco is on a historically dominant string of post-season play right now, dating back to 2010 when he was just 26. Here are his full playoff stats during that string:

2010

@KC 25 of 34, 265 yards, 2 TDs, 0 INTs, 115.4 rating (W)

@PIT 16 of 30, 125, 1-1, 61.1 (L)

2011

Hou 14 of 27, 176, 2-0, 97.1 (W)

@NE 22 of 36, 306, 2-1, 95.4 (L)

2012

IND 12 of 23, 282, 2-0, 125.6 (W)

@DEN 18 of 34, 331, 3-0, 116.2 (W)

@NE 21 of 36, 240, 3-0, 106.2 (W)

SF 22 of 33, 287, 3-0, 124.2 (W)

2013

@PIT 18 of 29, 259, 2-0, 114.0 (W)

That’s a 7-2 string over four postseasons, a 20-2 TD to INT ratio, and a 104.5 QB rating. He single-handedly carried them to their Super Bowl title, as the Ravens pass D was next to last in the NFL in 2012, and gave up 35 points to Denver and 31 to SF in the post-season.

He’s now played 5 straight post-season games with a QB rating over 100, and has only 1 game below a 95 QB rating in 9 post-season games since 2010 (despite playing only 2 of those games at home).

He’s in the Top 50 of all-time regular season wins by a QB, and now in the Top 10 of post-season wins. He’s also coming off the best regular season of his career and still isn’t 30.
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:goodposting: I was going to post something similar but wouldn't have outlined it nearly as well as you did.

Flacco seems to really elevate his game in the playoffs. Guys has been money the last few seasons.

 
I always think of Flacco as a guy who stares down his primary read and if its not there, he just dumps it off. But on the 11 yard TD pass to Torrey Smith, he stared at his primary read, then turned quickly to look at the other side of the field where Smith was and hit him for the score. If he's is doing that consistently now, the Ravens are gonna be really dangerous.

 
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That's a mostly good post, The_Man, but Flacco single-handedly carried them to their Super Bowl win? Uh, no. I am pretty sure the defense, which shut out Tom Brady in the 2nd half at Foxboro of the AFCCG, had a little something to do with it. Flacco was fantastic in those playoffs, but saying a QB single-handedly did anything just buys into the whole nonsense of giving a QB all of the credit when a team wins and all of the blame when they lose.

 
People still talk about Flacco as a guy who throws up a bunch of 50-yard prayers, but that's not the case, especially with Kubiak as OC.

I think they did that one time last night - the play that drew the 15-yard flag on Jacoby. Flacco made plays last night like the in cut to Torrey Smith on 3rd and 12 from their own 14 that went for a huge first down, the long 3rd down conversion to Daniels on a crossing route, the rollout TD pass to Gilmore, the scramble TD to Torrey, and the 3rd and 1 rainbow to Torrey at the back of the endzone that would have been a thing of beauty if the WR just dragged his toe.

He played an outstanding game last night - don't know why that's hard to see or acknowledge.

I just hope Kubiak doesn't get a head coaching job, because Flacco could be really, really good with another year working with Kubiak.

 
Ghost Rider said:
That's a mostly good post, The_Man, but Flacco single-handedly carried them to their Super Bowl win? Uh, no. I am pretty sure the defense, which shut out Tom Brady in the 2nd half at Foxboro of the AFCCG, had a little something to do with it. Flacco was fantastic in those playoffs, but saying a QB single-handedly did anything just buys into the whole nonsense of giving a QB all of the credit when a team wins and all of the blame when they lose.
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Fair enough, and the D scored a TD vs. Denver, and special teams has a TD in the Super Bowl. But people tend to forget how mediocre Baltimore's D was in 2012, because of the perception of how dominant they are historically.

 
JIslander said:
Lest we forget the Lee Evans dropped TD pass from Flacco in 2011 AFC championship game in Foxboro --
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Yeah, but then again, let's not forget the 70-yard pass to Jacoby in Denver which was pretty much an epic fluke as well. The two kind of cancel each other out in my mind.

 
The_Man said:
JIslander said:
Lest we forget the Lee Evans dropped TD pass from Flacco in 2011 AFC championship game in Foxboro --
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Yeah, but then again, let's not forget the 70-yard pass to Jacoby in Denver which was pretty much an epic fluke as well. The two kind of cancel each other out in my mind.
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true. But a cannon arm makes that play possible. And the NE game was sending sucky Flacco to Superbowl.

 
mr roboto said:
JIslander said:
Lest we forget the Lee Evans dropped TD pass from Flacco in 2011 AFC championship game in Foxboro --
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That was brutal.
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My heart still hurts from that one!

Great post The_Man. I just don't get why people don't give Joe his due. He's never had anything more than a mediocre receiving core the O line is typically not great, and he's had real conservative play callers. Joe is up and down during the regular season, we know that, but he steps it up during the playoffs and his ability to perform on the road (hard enough during the regular season let alone the playoffs) is a huge positive.

 
Boldin, Torrey Smith and Pitta, with Rice catching tons of balls out of the backfield, back in 2012, was hardly mediocre.

Hell, even this year, the two Smiths was a pretty damn solid 1-2.

 
Ghost Rider said:
Boldin, Torrey Smith and Pitta, with Rice catching tons of balls out of the backfield, back in 2012, was hardly mediocre.

Hell, even this year, the two Smiths was a pretty damn solid 1-2.
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You have got to be kidding me. Mediocre is a compliment to the Ravens receiving core.

 
Personally I never said Flacco sucks.... I also don't think any of the anti-elite Flacco posters never said he sucks (unless you go back to 2009 in this thread).

Ghost Rider said:
Run It Up said:
I mean it can't be a coincidence that he's literally the definition of mediocrity in every regular season game. Sample size not big enough for you?
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I'd love to know how a guy who is mediocre in every regular season game ended up with 27 touchdowns and 12 interceptions this past season.
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Mediocre =/= Average and I think most people are thinking of him as average and nothing much more.

Hmm well lets look (Flacco 2.2 INT% all QBs below are 2.2% or better and had a better QB Rating than Flacco):

Luck 40-16 (2.6% INT Rate)

Manning 39-15 (2.5% INT Rate)

Rodgers 38-5

Romo 34-9

Brady 33-9

Roethlisburger - 32-9

Manning - 30-14 (2.3% INT Rate)

Ryan - 28-14

Tannehill - 27-12

Flacco - 27-13

Left off (but had better QB Rating):

Brees 33-17 (2.6%)

Rivers 31-18 (3.2%)

Football Outsiders does say he does run the 6th best pass offense though based on their analysis. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamoff

The_Man said:
Flacco is on a historically dominant string of post-season play right now, dating back to 2010 when he was just 26. Here are his full playoff stats during that string:

2010
@KC 25 of 34, 265 yards, 2 TDs, 0 INTs, 115.4 rating (W)
@PIT 16 of 30, 125, 1-1, 61.1 (L)

2011
Hou 14 of 27, 176, 2-0, 97.1 (W)
@NE 22 of 36, 306, 2-1, 95.4 (L)

2012
IND 12 of 23, 282, 2-0, 125.6 (W)
@DEN 18 of 34, 331, 3-0, 116.2 (W)
@NE 21 of 36, 240, 3-0, 106.2 (W)
SF 22 of 33, 287, 3-0, 124.2 (W)

2013
@PIT 18 of 29, 259, 2-0, 114.0 (W)

That’s a 7-2 string over four postseasons, a 20-2 TD to INT ratio, and a 104.5 QB rating. He single-handedly carried them to their Super Bowl title, as the Ravens pass D was next to last in the NFL in 2012, and gave up 35 points to Denver and 31 to SF in the post-season.

He’s now played 5 straight post-season games with a QB rating over 100, and has only 1 game below a 95 QB rating in 9 post-season games since 2010 (despite playing only 2 of those games at home).

He’s in the Top 50 of all-time regular season wins by a QB, and now in the Top 10 of post-season wins. He’s also coming off the best regular season of his career and still isn’t 30.

Ghost Rider said:
That's a mostly good post, The_Man, but Flacco single-handedly carried them to their Super Bowl win? Uh, no. I am pretty sure the defense, which shut out Tom Brady in the 2nd half at Foxboro of the AFCCG, had a little something to do with it. Flacco was fantastic in those playoffs, but saying a QB single-handedly did anything just buys into the whole nonsense of giving a QB all of the credit when a team wins and all of the blame when they lose.
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I think you forgot where in the Broncos game probably the worst play in playoff history happened with his long TD pass to win the game happened. I can't remember a more bone-headed play in recent memory in the playoffs, BUT he DID make the play so this is a huge positive for him at the same time as it was the most important play of the Super Bowl run. (This falls into that luck category at least partly)

I still point to the defense giving up 7/13/9/13/17 points in 5 of the 7 wins (both wins of giving up 18+ points came in Super Bowl run). Since 2008 teams are 40-3{18-0 on the road} when allowing 17 or less points the 3 losses (TEN vs BAL, NYJ, NYJ), since 1990 teams are 170-29{50-16 on the road} when allowing 17 or less points.

I also think you have to factor in 0 playoff games last year when looking at his current roll as he missed his chance to carry his team in the playoffs to show what he really has instead of primarily relying on the defense in every game except for the Super Bowl run. For kicks I looked at his QBR during the last 3 years of playoffs he has been in:

2011- #10/#18 of 22 games

2012- #14/#22 of 22 games

2013- #3/#6/#8/#9 of 22 games (great Super Bowl run)

2014 - missed playoffs

2015 - Likely a top 7 game last night of 22 games

PS - Did I mention teams are 40-3 and 18-0 on the road when allowing 17 or less points in the playoffs!

 
TDorBust said:
Personally I never said Flacco sucks.... I also don't think any of the anti-elite Flacco posters never said he sucks (unless you go back to 2009 in this thread).

Ghost Rider said:
Run It Up said:
I mean it can't be a coincidence that he's literally the definition of mediocrity in every regular season game. Sample size not big enough for you?
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I'd love to know how a guy who is mediocre in every regular season game ended up with 27 touchdowns and 12 interceptions this past season.
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Mediocre =/= Average and I think most people are thinking of him as average and nothing much more.

Hmm well lets look (Flacco 2.2 INT% all QBs below are 2.2% or better and had a better QB Rating than Flacco):

Luck 40-16 (2.6% INT Rate)

Manning 39-15 (2.5% INT Rate)

Rodgers 38-5

Romo 34-9

Brady 33-9

Roethlisburger - 32-9

Manning - 30-14 (2.3% INT Rate)

Ryan - 28-14

Tannehill - 27-12

Flacco - 27-13

Left off (but had better QB Rating):

Brees 33-17 (2.6%)

Rivers 31-18 (3.2%)

Football Outsiders does say he does run the 6th best pass offense though based on their analysis. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamoff

The_Man said:
Flacco is on a historically dominant string of post-season play right now, dating back to 2010 when he was just 26. Here are his full playoff stats during that string:

2010

@KC 25 of 34, 265 yards, 2 TDs, 0 INTs, 115.4 rating (W)

@PIT 16 of 30, 125, 1-1, 61.1 (L)

2011

Hou 14 of 27, 176, 2-0, 97.1 (W)

@NE 22 of 36, 306, 2-1, 95.4 (L)

2012

IND 12 of 23, 282, 2-0, 125.6 (W)

@DEN 18 of 34, 331, 3-0, 116.2 (W)

@NE 21 of 36, 240, 3-0, 106.2 (W)

SF 22 of 33, 287, 3-0, 124.2 (W)

2013

@PIT 18 of 29, 259, 2-0, 114.0 (W)

That’s a 7-2 string over four postseasons, a 20-2 TD to INT ratio, and a 104.5 QB rating. He single-handedly carried them to their Super Bowl title, as the Ravens pass D was next to last in the NFL in 2012, and gave up 35 points to Denver and 31 to SF in the post-season.

He’s now played 5 straight post-season games with a QB rating over 100, and has only 1 game below a 95 QB rating in 9 post-season games since 2010 (despite playing only 2 of those games at home).

He’s in the Top 50 of all-time regular season wins by a QB, and now in the Top 10 of post-season wins. He’s also coming off the best regular season of his career and still isn’t 30.

Ghost Rider said:
That's a mostly good post, The_Man, but Flacco single-handedly carried them to their Super Bowl win? Uh, no. I am pretty sure the defense, which shut out Tom Brady in the 2nd half at Foxboro of the AFCCG, had a little something to do with it. Flacco was fantastic in those playoffs, but saying a QB single-handedly did anything just buys into the whole nonsense of giving a QB all of the credit when a team wins and all of the blame when they lose.
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I think you forgot where in the Broncos game probably the worst play in playoff history happened with his long TD pass to win the game happened. I can't remember a more bone-headed play in recent memory in the playoffs, BUT he DID make the play so this is a huge positive for him at the same time as it was the most important play of the Super Bowl run. (This falls into that luck category at least partly)

I still point to the defense giving up 7/13/9/13/17 points in 5 of the 7 wins (both wins of giving up 18+ points came in Super Bowl run). Since 2008 teams are 40-3{18-0 on the road} when allowing 17 or less points the 3 losses (TEN vs BAL, NYJ, NYJ), since 1990 teams are 170-29{50-16 on the road} when allowing 17 or less points.

I also think you have to factor in 0 playoff games last year when looking at his current roll as he missed his chance to carry his team in the playoffs to show what he really has instead of primarily relying on the defense in every game except for the Super Bowl run. For kicks I looked at his QBR during the last 3 years of playoffs he has been in:

2011- #10/#18 of 22 games

2012- #14/#22 of 22 games

2013- #3/#6/#8/#9 of 22 games (great Super Bowl run)

2014 - missed playoffs

2015 - Likely a top 7 game last night of 22 games

PS - Did I mention teams are 40-3 and 18-0 on the road when allowing 17 or less points in the playoffs!
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And the best part of your post is how you note how good the Ravens D was, but you forgot to mention how the Ravens O basically faced cupcakes each and every game.

Flacco is clearly the luckiest qb in the history of football since he's the only one who's ever had a godly D while facing peewee D's himself.

 
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TDorBust said:
Personally I never said Flacco sucks.... I also don't think any of the anti-elite Flacco posters never said he sucks (unless you go back to 2009 in this thread).

Ghost Rider said:
Run It Up said:
I mean it can't be a coincidence that he's literally the definition of mediocrity in every regular season game. Sample size not big enough for you?
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I'd love to know how a guy who is mediocre in every regular season game ended up with 27 touchdowns and 12 interceptions this past season.
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Mediocre =/= Average and I think most people are thinking of him as average and nothing much more.

Hmm well lets look (Flacco 2.2 INT% all QBs below are 2.2% or better and had a better QB Rating than Flacco):

Luck 40-16 (2.6% INT Rate)

Manning 39-15 (2.5% INT Rate)

Rodgers 38-5

Romo 34-9

Brady 33-9

Roethlisburger - 32-9

Manning - 30-14 (2.3% INT Rate)

Ryan - 28-14

Tannehill - 27-12

Flacco - 27-13

Left off (but had better QB Rating):

Brees 33-17 (2.6%)

Rivers 31-18 (3.2%)

Football Outsiders does say he does run the 6th best pass offense though based on their analysis. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamoff

The_Man said:
Flacco is on a historically dominant string of post-season play right now, dating back to 2010 when he was just 26. Here are his full playoff stats during that string:

2010

@KC 25 of 34, 265 yards, 2 TDs, 0 INTs, 115.4 rating (W)

@PIT 16 of 30, 125, 1-1, 61.1 (L)

2011

Hou 14 of 27, 176, 2-0, 97.1 (W)

@NE 22 of 36, 306, 2-1, 95.4 (L)

2012

IND 12 of 23, 282, 2-0, 125.6 (W)

@DEN 18 of 34, 331, 3-0, 116.2 (W)

@NE 21 of 36, 240, 3-0, 106.2 (W)

SF 22 of 33, 287, 3-0, 124.2 (W)

2013

@PIT 18 of 29, 259, 2-0, 114.0 (W)

That’s a 7-2 string over four postseasons, a 20-2 TD to INT ratio, and a 104.5 QB rating. He single-handedly carried them to their Super Bowl title, as the Ravens pass D was next to last in the NFL in 2012, and gave up 35 points to Denver and 31 to SF in the post-season.

He’s now played 5 straight post-season games with a QB rating over 100, and has only 1 game below a 95 QB rating in 9 post-season games since 2010 (despite playing only 2 of those games at home).

He’s in the Top 50 of all-time regular season wins by a QB, and now in the Top 10 of post-season wins. He’s also coming off the best regular season of his career and still isn’t 30.

Ghost Rider said:
That's a mostly good post, The_Man, but Flacco single-handedly carried them to their Super Bowl win? Uh, no. I am pretty sure the defense, which shut out Tom Brady in the 2nd half at Foxboro of the AFCCG, had a little something to do with it. Flacco was fantastic in those playoffs, but saying a QB single-handedly did anything just buys into the whole nonsense of giving a QB all of the credit when a team wins and all of the blame when they lose.
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I think you forgot where in the Broncos game probably the worst play in playoff history happened with his long TD pass to win the game happened. I can't remember a more bone-headed play in recent memory in the playoffs, BUT he DID make the play so this is a huge positive for him at the same time as it was the most important play of the Super Bowl run. (This falls into that luck category at least partly)

I still point to the defense giving up 7/13/9/13/17 points in 5 of the 7 wins (both wins of giving up 18+ points came in Super Bowl run). Since 2008 teams are 40-3{18-0 on the road} when allowing 17 or less points the 3 losses (TEN vs BAL, NYJ, NYJ), since 1990 teams are 170-29{50-16 on the road} when allowing 17 or less points.

I also think you have to factor in 0 playoff games last year when looking at his current roll as he missed his chance to carry his team in the playoffs to show what he really has instead of primarily relying on the defense in every game except for the Super Bowl run. For kicks I looked at his QBR during the last 3 years of playoffs he has been in:

2011- #10/#18 of 22 games

2012- #14/#22 of 22 games

2013- #3/#6/#8/#9 of 22 games (great Super Bowl run)

2014 - missed playoffs

2015 - Likely a top 7 game last night of 22 games

PS - Did I mention teams are 40-3 and 18-0 on the road when allowing 17 or less points in the playoffs!
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LOL --sure is a lot of effort here. And you do know the Raven's purged nearly the entire team after the Superbowl win? But its Joe's fault they didnt get back to playoffs.

 
MaxThreshold said:
John Harbaugh calls Flacco THE BEST QB IN FOOTBALL.

I mean, I know he's Flacco's head coach, but I can't believe he really believes that. This was just a confidence booster with his fingers crossed behind his back, right?

Discuss.
Click to expand...
Crazy talk. Everyone knows Rodgers is the best regular season QB in the game, and he got his one ring so it's legit. If he plays long enough to compile Farvesque numbers, he'll be the greatest regular season QB of all-time.

 
JIslander said:
LOL --sure is a lot of effort here. And you do know the Raven's purged nearly the entire team after the Superbowl win? But its Joe's fault they didn't get back to playoffs.
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Its nice that they purged his whole team but where did I blame Joe completely for that? Also if you look back the Ravens were still right around the 10th best defense in 2013 as well after the "purge". My consistent theme with my arguments around Flacco is he gets all the credit and none of the downside that should have people questioning him. Also to clarify I am not saying he had to make it to the playoffs in 2013 just that other great/elite QBs potentially might have and had one of those down games because all the weight was on their shoulders to win (ala Rodgers vs 49ers last year).

Most quarterbacks don't have the benefit of a defense like the Ravens have year after year. I wish the Packers had the Ravens defense I could only imagine how many more titles we would have.

The following wraps up Joe Flacco with a little comedy:

"I don't always win playoff games but when I do its the defense usually doing most of the heavy lifting."

 
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That's not exactly fair, though. No QB is gonna consistently win in the playoffs without some help from the defense. Look at Aaron Rodgers, who has a bunch of playoff losses where he played well, but the defense gave up a million points.

Flacco, to me, is still in that range of 9-12 when ranking the starting quarterbacks. He's above average, but still below the ones I would call elite.

 
Ghost Rider said:
That's not exactly fair, though. No QB is gonna consistently win in the playoffs without some help from the defense. Look at Aaron Rodgers, who has a bunch of playoff losses where he played well, but the defense gave up a million points.

Flacco, to me, is still in that range of 9-12 when ranking the starting quarterbacks. He's above average, but still below the ones I would call elite.
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:goodposting:

Edit - Just wanted to say we are exactly the same page Flacco is a good NFL QB.

 
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Ghost Rider said:
That's not exactly fair, though. No QB is gonna consistently win in the playoffs without some help from the defense. Look at Aaron Rodgers, who has a bunch of playoff losses where he played well, but the defense gave up a million points.

Flacco, to me, is still in that range of 9-12 when ranking the starting quarterbacks. He's above average, but still below the ones I would call elite.
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I don't think anyone here suggests that he's a top 5 or whatever qb. Just that when the bright lights come on, Joe is usually clutch and gives his team a great chance to win. There's certainly not 8 other qb's I'd take over him once the playoffs start.

 
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Wow. I thought I hated Joe Flacco until I read the last two pages of this thread.

Dalton? Haha

Tony Romo's perceived ability in big games is so fragile. If they lose today and he doesn't have a great game, there shouldn't be a cowboy fan that wouldn't rather have Flacco.

When both teams had must win games last week, rivers had 0 tds and 2 ints. Flacco had 2 tds and 0 ints. I don't think you'll find many Ravens fans who would trade Joe for Rivers, Stafford, Ryan, Eli, Romo or Dalton. And I don't blame them one bit.

 
James Daulton said:
Ghost Rider said:
That's not exactly fair, though. No QB is gonna consistently win in the playoffs without some help from the defense. Look at Aaron Rodgers, who has a bunch of playoff losses where he played well, but the defense gave up a million points.

Flacco, to me, is still in that range of 9-12 when ranking the starting quarterbacks. He's above average, but still below the ones I would call elite.
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I don't think anyone here suggests that he's a top 5 or whatever qb. Just that when the bright lights come on, Joe is usually clutch and gives his team a great chance to win. There's certainly not 8 other qb's I'd take over him once the playoffs start.
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Okay, but like I said in another thread, the bright lights just don't magically come on in the playoffs. Plenty of regular season games count as "big games" too. With all things being equal, I think 9-12 sounds about right for Flacco when ranking the starting quarterbacks.

 
avoiding injuries said:
Wow. I thought I hated Joe Flacco until I read the last two pages of this thread.

Dalton? Haha

Tony Romo's perceived ability in big games is so fragile. If they lose today and he doesn't have a great game, there shouldn't be a cowboy fan that wouldn't rather have Flacco.

When both teams had must win games last week, rivers had 0 tds and 2 ints. Flacco had 2 tds and 0 ints. I don't think you'll find many Ravens fans who would trade Joe for Rivers, Stafford, Ryan, Eli, Romo or Dalton. And I don't blame them one bit.
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Cowboys will take their chances if they give up 17 or less points.... Again everyone acts like Flacco is clutch in the playoffs when in reality he has only won 2 games total in the playoffs where the odds weren't basically 90% in his favor because of the defense!2-4 when defense gives up 17+ points and 2 of 10 wins have comes when Flacco was set up for the win by the defense. The defense wins games and Flacco normally comes along for the ride.

I also like how you avoided to mention Flacco against the tanking Browns and Rivers against a team in the chiefs who beat New England and Seattle at home the two #1 seeds....

 
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TDorBust said:
avoiding injuries said:
Wow. I thought I hated Joe Flacco until I read the last two pages of this thread.

Dalton? Haha

Tony Romo's perceived ability in big games is so fragile. If they lose today and he doesn't have a great game, there shouldn't be a cowboy fan that wouldn't rather have Flacco.

When both teams had must win games last week, rivers had 0 tds and 2 ints. Flacco had 2 tds and 0 ints. I don't think you'll find many Ravens fans who would trade Joe for Rivers, Stafford, Ryan, Eli, Romo or Dalton. And I don't blame them one bit.
Click to expand...
Cowboys will take their chances if they give up 17 or less points.... Again everyone acts like Flacco is clutch in the playoffs when in reality he has only won 2 games total in the playoffs where the odds weren't basically 90% in his favor because of the defense!2-4 when defense gives up 17+ points and 2 of 10 wins have comes when Flacco was set up for the win by the defense. The defense wins games and Flacco normally comes along for the ride.

I also like how you avoided to mention Flacco against the tanking Browns and Rivers against a team in the chiefs who beat New England and Seattle at home the two #1 seeds....
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I'm afraid Flacco's success and real statistics in the playoffs holds more water than your subjective conclusions.

 
The idea that people would take Tannehill or Dalton over Flacco is crazy to me.

Even if you hope they step up their game in their 3rd or 4th years (or 5th like when Brady went from game manager to superstar), you're basically hoping you get the production that Flacco is giving the Raven's right now. And what if you miss? you waste a year with Ponder, or maybe 4 years with Cutler?

Stafford also rode a strong defense to the playoffs this year, so hes a great comparison.

Flacco 554 att 62% 3986 yds 27tds 12ints 91.0 rating

Stafford 602 att 60.3% 4257 yds 22tds 12ints 85.7 rating

Are you going to tell me Stafford was definitively better this year?

 
In his favor:

He has had several good playoff games.

Casual fans sort by win%.

He probably deserved the Super Bowl MVP.

Against:

He followed up the magical 2012 playoff run (which wouldn't have been possible without Rahim Moore's stupidity) with a 22 INT horrific 2013.

The Ravens defense has been amazing virtually the entire 7 years of his career.

 
JIslander said:
TDorBust said:
avoiding injuries said:
Wow. I thought I hated Joe Flacco until I read the last two pages of this thread.

Dalton? Haha

Tony Romo's perceived ability in big games is so fragile. If they lose today and he doesn't have a great game, there shouldn't be a cowboy fan that wouldn't rather have Flacco.

When both teams had must win games last week, rivers had 0 tds and 2 ints. Flacco had 2 tds and 0 ints. I don't think you'll find many Ravens fans who would trade Joe for Rivers, Stafford, Ryan, Eli, Romo or Dalton. And I don't blame them one bit.
Click to expand...
Cowboys will take their chances if they give up 17 or less points.... Again everyone acts like Flacco is clutch in the playoffs when in reality he has only won 2 games total in the playoffs where the odds weren't basically 90% in his favor because of the defense!2-4 when defense gives up 17+ points and 2 of 10 wins have comes when Flacco was set up for the win by the defense. The defense wins games and Flacco normally comes along for the ride.

I also like how you avoided to mention Flacco against the tanking Browns and Rivers against a team in the chiefs who beat New England and Seattle at home the two #1 seeds....
Click to expand...
I'm afraid Flacco's success and real statistics in the playoffs holds more water than your subjective conclusions.
Click to expand...
Its not subjective its a fact.

Did you not read above where I went over the history of all teams in the playoffs:

Since 2008 teams are 40-3{18-0 on the road} when allowing 17 or less points the 3 losses (TEN vs BAL, NYJ, NYJ), since 1990 teams are 170-29{50-16 on the road} when allowing 17 or less points.

So since Joe Flacco came into the league teams have a 93% win percentage when allowing 17 points or less. That means in his 10 wins 8 of them he had a 93% chance of getting a win based on what his defense had allowed compared to every playoff game.

 
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TDorBust said:
JIslander said:
TDorBust said:
avoiding injuries said:
Wow. I thought I hated Joe Flacco until I read the last two pages of this thread.

Dalton? Haha

Tony Romo's perceived ability in big games is so fragile. If they lose today and he doesn't have a great game, there shouldn't be a cowboy fan that wouldn't rather have Flacco.

When both teams had must win games last week, rivers had 0 tds and 2 ints. Flacco had 2 tds and 0 ints. I don't think you'll find many Ravens fans who would trade Joe for Rivers, Stafford, Ryan, Eli, Romo or Dalton. And I don't blame them one bit.
Click to expand...
Cowboys will take their chances if they give up 17 or less points.... Again everyone acts like Flacco is clutch in the playoffs when in reality he has only won 2 games total in the playoffs where the odds weren't basically 90% in his favor because of the defense!2-4 when defense gives up 17+ points and 2 of 10 wins have comes when Flacco was set up for the win by the defense. The defense wins games and Flacco normally comes along for the ride.

I also like how you avoided to mention Flacco against the tanking Browns and Rivers against a team in the chiefs who beat New England and Seattle at home the two #1 seeds....
Click to expand...
I'm afraid Flacco's success and real statistics in the playoffs holds more water than your subjective conclusions.
Click to expand...
Its not subjective its a fact.

Did you not read above where I went over the history of all teams in the playoffs:

Since 2008 teams are 40-3{18-0 on the road} when allowing 17 or less points the 3 losses (TEN vs BAL, NYJ, NYJ), since 1990 teams are 170-29{50-16 on the road} when allowing 17 or less points.

So since Joe Flacco came into the league teams have a 93% win percentage when allowing 17 points or less. That means in his 10 wins 8 of them he had a 93% chance of getting a win based on what his defense had allowed compared to every playoff game.
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You're cherry picking and creating a strawman --lets look at Joe's SB winning year --the Ravens defense was rated #17 in league and IN the playoffs, the defense allowed an average or 22 points.

 
IHEARTFF said:
In his favor:

He has had several good playoff games.

Casual fans sort by win%.

He probably deserved the Super Bowl MVP.

Against:

He followed up the magical 2012 playoff run (which wouldn't have been possible without Rahim Moore's stupidity) with a 22 INT horrific 2013.

The Ravens defense has been amazing virtually the entire 7 years of his career.
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Run games been no joke either, the way Ravens manage games certainly helps the run game but Mcclain, Rice and now Forsett have been no slouches.

 
I think TDorBust is bringing up a really good point with the odds of winning when your defense holds the other team to 17 points or less here. I also think it's interesting that Flacco's "historic playoff run" amounts to basically a half of season worth of games.

I find both of these interesting because we've had this exact conversation before, 5 years ago, with these exact same points brought up. At the time Kyle Orton was putting together a pretty nice half season worth of games behind a defense that only allowed 17+ points once or twice and people were warming up to the idea that he was a really good QB. In fact, I think I remember Rivers being one of the QBs he was compared to and someone bringing up that very similar 17 points stat, whereby Rivers' had won something like 96% of his career games when the D allowed 17 points or less, but his defense just didn't hold teams to that few points as often.

Eventually Orton's defense fell off and his W/L fell more in line with the quality of QB we'd seen him as throughout the majority of his career, rather than that tiny sample size of games where his defense was holding teams to under 17 points the majority of the time.

 
Ravens only gave up 17 points last night. So does that mean Flacco wasn't excellent? A big part of the reason they only gave up 17 was that the Ravens got ahead by 11 points midway through the 3rd quarter (thanks in very large part to Flacco's play) so the Steelers had to abandon the run, which made the Ravens' pass rush much more effective and helped them hold Pittsburgh to 17.

 
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