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QB Joe Flacco, IND (4 Viewers)

Peyton Marino said:
Doctor Detroit said:
FreeBaGeL said:
Doctor Detroit said:
FreeBaGeL said:
The road playoff stat is pretty misleading for as much as it's been brought up. Since Flacco entered the league in 2008...

Flacco is 6-0 in road playoff games when his defense gives up 17 points or less

Other QBs are 12-0 in road playoff games when their defense gives up 17 points or less

Flacco meanwhile is 2-4 in road playoff games where the defense gives up more than 17 points. The impressive stat here is that the Ravens' defense has held opponents to 17 points or less half as often as THE ENTIRE REST OF THE NFL, not that Flacco has won those games. Literally EVERY QB has won those games, Flacco's defense just has given him more of them.

Since Flacco entered the league, his W/L in road playoff games is right on par with, or slightly below the average playoff QB when the defense is factored in. 100% when allowing 17 points or less (equal to the NFL average), and 33% when allowing 18+ points (below the NFL average). Again, the only difference is that the defense has allotted far more games in the first category than any other team for Flacco.
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So I guess 13 Tds and 0 INTs is misleading to? 166 consecutive passes without a TD is misleading?

You also conveniently omitted Flacco winning 38-35 as a huge dog in Denver where his defense was awful, and the Super Bowl 34-31. 331/3/0 and 289/3/0 in those two games.

Below are two AFC QB numbers in the playoffs. I know which guy I would take. Do you?

QBR Yards Comp% TDs INT GP88 2931 56 21 8 1484 3150 60 20 17 15
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I didn't "conveniently" leave anything out. I was very explicit that I was talking about the road playoff W/L record specifically in that post.

Flacco played great in those two games you mentioned, and if you want to say that he's a great QB on the merits of two great games during a 7 year career than that's your prerogative. My qualm is with people throwing around this playoff road win stat as if it's some huge point in his favor. It's not. It's literally the same thing that every other QB has done over the same span, he's just had more opportunities.

Mark Sanchez is 3-0 in road playoff games where his defense allows 17 or fewer points and followed one of those wins up with a 200/3/0 performance on the road against New England in a 28-21 win. That doesn't make him a great quarterback.

In fact, Flacco and Sanchez have identical road playoff W/L percentages in the two buckets we're talking about here.

When defense allows 17 points or less

Flacco: 6-0 (1.00)

Sanchez: 3-0 (1.00)

When defense allows 18+ points

Flacco: 2-4 (.33)

Sanchez: 1-2 (.33)

Sanchez's road playoff W/L percentages are literally identical to Flacco's. The fact that Joe Flacco and Mark Sanchez are the "best" at winning road playoff games since they entered the league is a sign of how useless a metric it is when you don't account for the defense, not a sign of how great Flacco and Sanchez are.
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Terry Bradshaw was 2-5 in the post-season when the opposing team scored 17 or more points.

His 4 Super Bowl titles, Super Bowl MVP, and Hall of Fame induction are all "misleading" because of it. Right? Here are some overall records of some great QBs when their teams allowed 17 or more points in a playoff game, and I won't even cherry-pick it by using "road games," because it would look worse than this (Montana was 1-5 for example).

Joe Montana was 6-6

Dan Marino was 5-10

Peyton Manning 6-12

Roger Staubach 2-6

Joe Flacco 3-4

Bradshaw 2-5

Of the HOF or soon to be HOF QBs I looked up, only Brady (10-8), Elway (10-7) and Roethlisberger (8-5) had winning records over their careers when the opposing team scored 17 or more. Not sure why you used 17 as if it was a gold standard metric, or you just cut and pasted from somewhere.

oops

:own3d:
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For me his numbers speak volumes. You mentioned his numbers and FreeBaseGel wanted to toss out one year because it was really good but that seems kind of stupid to me. The dude is pretty good in the playoffs, even more impressive is that he's done it the majority of time on the road and in some pretty tough places to play. I don't like attributing W/L's wholly to QBs but for me the numbers speak for themself.
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I'm not even saying I think Flacco is great, I just don't understand the hate for the guy based on what we've seen him do in clutch spots. I think people in here dislike because he's not a good fantasy football QB, but that's generally not how the discussion follows. It's about one bad season or he's considered good because his team's defense was good. Doesn't make sense, most successful QBs have good defenses if they are gonna win it all.

 
Doctor Detroit said:
Of the HOF or soon to be HOF QBs I looked up, only Brady (10-8), Elway (10-7) and Roethlisberger (8-5) had winning records over their careers when the opposing team scored 17 or more. Not sure why you used 17 as if it was a gold standard metric, or you just cut and pasted from somewhere.

oops

:own3d:
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I can address the 17 points because I am the who has used it throughout the argument. AGIAN I AM NOT SAYING FLACCO IS BAD!

The 17 point argument is based in the fact that when a defense allows less than that since 2008 (Flacco's rookie year) you are pretty much ALWAYS going to win. Thus this is a baseline to eliminate games where ANY competent QB would have likely won the game 90%+ of the time. Its not to take full credit away from the QB for still being good in those games. It is however meant to takeaway the analysis of:

X player is 9-1 on the road (9 games of 17 points or less) - is better because of a better W/L

Y payer is 5-5 on the road (5 games of 17 points or less)

 
Doctor Detroit said:
I'm not even saying I think Flacco is great, I just don't understand the hate for the guy based on what we've seen him do in clutch spots. I think people in here dislike because he's not a good fantasy football QB, but that's generally not how the discussion follows. It's about one bad season or he's considered good because his team's defense was good. Doesn't make sense, most successful QBs have good defenses if they are gonna win it all.
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Yea, I definitely wouldn't say he's great. But he's done what's asked of him and at times he has been asked to do a lot, and he's done a lot.

 
Run It Up said:
Ghost Rider said:
I think Run It Up is still bitter about Flacco outplaying Brady two years ago at Foxboro in the playoffs.
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He has an opportunity to do it again, but his defense isn't gonna bail him out and Gronk is actually gonna be on the field. Crow is prepared.
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What crow? For Brady to finally outplay Flacco in a playoff game in their fourth one? Both were terrible in the game following the '09 season, and Flacco outplayed Brady in both AFCCG's.

 
Raider Nation said:
FreeBaGeL said:
:lmao:

Because 17 points scored in the 70's/80's is the same as 17 points scored in the modern NFL. They don't make a big enough eyeroll icon for that statement.
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It was your argument. :shrug:
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Actually my argument (although even that was someone else's argument that I was just expounding on) was since Flacco entered the league, which was stated numerous times. Makes sense to compare them in the same context, but if we're going to start comparing 1970's offenses to 2008+ offenses than we're going to need to kick a lot of people out of the hall of fame to make room for, well just about everyone that's played in the last few years.

 
FreeBaGeL said:
Raider Nation said:
FreeBaGeL said:
:lmao:

Because 17 points scored in the 70's/80's is the same as 17 points scored in the modern NFL. They don't make a big enough eyeroll icon for that statement.
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It was your argument. :shrug:
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Actually my argument (although even that was someone else's argument that I was just expounding on) was since Flacco entered the league, which was stated numerous times. Makes sense to compare them in the same context, but if we're going to start comparing 1970's offenses to 2008+ offenses than we're going to need to kick a lot of people out of the hall of fame to make room for, well just about everyone that's played in the last few years.
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So there's hope for Andy Dalton? ;)

 
Doctor Detroit said:
FreeBaGeL said:
Raider Nation said:
FreeBaGeL said:
:lmao:

Because 17 points scored in the 70's/80's is the same as 17 points scored in the modern NFL. They don't make a big enough eyeroll icon for that statement.
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It was your argument. :shrug:
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Actually my argument (although even that was someone else's argument that I was just expounding on) was since Flacco entered the league, which was stated numerous times. Makes sense to compare them in the same context, but if we're going to start comparing 1970's offenses to 2008+ offenses than we're going to need to kick a lot of people out of the hall of fame to make room for, well just about everyone that's played in the last few years.
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So there's hope for Andy Dalton? ;)
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He's a lock. May as well start the thread now.

 
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James Daulton said:
So 3 of the 4 home teams won, except for....the team Joe Flacco played.

Of course, the D won the game.
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The Ravens D had four takeaways and five sacks, its a good thing Flacco only fell down five times or he might have accidentally completed 20 passes.

 
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Clearly not going to argue you guys into acceptance, don't care.

The Ravens go on the road and win in the playoffs (unlike every other team). I'm happy to have Joe.

 
Is Flacco an elite QB? No. Is he a decent starting NFL QB who plays his best games when they mean the most? Yes. That has to be worth something.

 
And Flacco led Ravens score 30 to overwhelm the statistical "standard" of 17 established here. Ridiculous. If he outplays Brady (again) there will be some other reason for his good fortune.

 
James Daulton said:
Clearly not going to argue you guys into acceptance, don't care.

The Ravens go on the road and win in the playoffs (unlike every other team). I'm happy to have Joe.
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Perhaps you can at least admit that the truly interesting stat here is that, in the scenario you describe (on the road in the playoffs) the Ravens' defense has held opponents to 17 points or less during that span SEVEN times while only one other team has done it more than ONCE in that same span. That is truly remarkable. The only other team to do it more than once was the Jets, who did it 3 times and are 3-0 with the venerable Mark Sanchez leading the way in those games.

Look, there's no doubt that Flacco has played well in the playoffs, and has definitely played much better than he has in the regular season. Likewise, it's not like those wins where the defense held their opponents to 17 points or less don't count. But they shouldn't be swaying people's opinions as much as they do. In the modern NFL it's very very very very easy to win when your defense holds your opponent to 17 points or less. If it wasn't than we wouldn't be in a situation where, over that same span, literally every single QB who's had the same opportunity has been successful in winning every single time. Flacco is undefeated in those games, but so is the ENTIRE REST OF THE NFL. The fact of the matter is that Baltimore was probably going to win those games whether their QB was Joe Flacco or Aaron Rodgers or Mark Sanchez or TJ Yates, all of whom are undefeated in that scenario.

Granted, there is more to Flacco's playoff performances than just those games. My almost singular point in here however, has been that this constant spouting of "look at his road playoff record!" is only very mildly relevant. There are very few QBs that wouldn't have won 8 road games in the same scenario that Flacco did.

 
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FreeBaGeL said:
James Daulton said:
Clearly not going to argue you guys into acceptance, don't care.

The Ravens go on the road and win in the playoffs (unlike every other team). I'm happy to have Joe.
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Perhaps you can at least admit that the truly interesting stat here is that, in the scenario you describe (on the road in the playoffs) the Ravens' defense has held opponents to 17 points or less during that span SEVEN times while only one other team has done it more than ONCE in that same span. That is truly remarkable. The only other team to do it more than once was the Jets, who did it 3 times and are 3-0 with the venerable Mark Sanchez leading the way in those games.

Look, there's no doubt that Flacco has played well in the playoffs, and has definitely played much better than he has in the regular season. Likewise, it's not like those wins where the defense held their opponents to 17 points or less don't count. But they shouldn't be swaying people's opinions as much as they do. In the modern NFL it's very very very very easy to win when your defense holds your opponent to 17 points or less. If it wasn't than we wouldn't be in a situation where, over that same span, literally every single QB who's had the same opportunity has been successful in winning every single time. Flacco is undefeated in those games, but so is the ENTIRE REST OF THE NFL. The fact of the matter is that Baltimore was probably going to win those games whether their QB was Joe Flacco or Aaron Rodgers or Mark Sanchez or TJ Yates, all of whom are undefeated in that scenario.

Granted, there is more to Flacco's playoff performances than just those games. My almost singular point in here however, has been that this constant spouting of "look at his road playoff record!" is only very mildly relevant. There are very few QBs that wouldn't have won those 8 road games in the same scenario that Flacco did.
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+1 for a great post

To James: Who would you take over Flacco? I think this is an important question as well.

 
To those arguing in favour of the defense, something else to keep in mind is that it is a lot easier to hold the opposing team to less than 17 points when the offense isn't turning the ball over, giving the other team short fields, etc., and when the offense is sustaining drives and keeping the defense (and opposing offense) off the field.

No one should confuse Flacco with Brady, but give the guy his due.

 
TDorBust said:
Who would you take over Flacco? I think this is an important question as well.
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There aren't ten QBs, I can tell you that. For the purpose of this thread and for all the people who think Flacco stink, I'd like to see your list right now. Guaranteed the lot of you are reaching for guys who have never, nor will never have Flacco's success.

 
Doctor Detroit said:
TDorBust said:
Who would you take over Flacco? I think this is an important question as well.
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There aren't ten QBs, I can tell you that. For the purpose of this thread and for all the people who think Flacco stink, I'd like to see your list right now. Guaranteed the lot of you are reaching for guys who have never, nor will never have Flacco's success.
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Guys I know I would take before flacco (real nfl not ff)Manning, P

Brees

Brady

Rodgers

Luck

Wilson

Probably Romo and Ben

After that no one sticks out.

 
The above list including Romo and Ben, add Ryan, Rivers, Stafford.

Pretty much where everyone has ranked him in the previous two threads discussing Flacco's career, 12th a middling QB in a league where the bottom half of the position shouldn't even be playing.

 
Run It Up said:
The above list including Romo and Ben, add Ryan, Rivers, Stafford.

Pretty much where everyone has ranked him in the previous two threads discussing Flacco's career, 12th a middling QB in a league where the bottom half of the position shouldn't even be playing.
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Maybe Rivers. Stafford and Ryan not clear.
 
bucsbaby said:
To those arguing in favour of the defense, something else to keep in mind is that it is a lot easier to hold the opposing team to less than 17 points when the offense isn't turning the ball over, giving the other team short fields, etc., and when the offense is sustaining drives and keeping the defense (and opposing offense) off the field.

No one should confuse Flacco with Brady, but give the guy his due.
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FreeBaGeL said:
James Daulton said:
Clearly not going to argue you guys into acceptance, don't care.

The Ravens go on the road and win in the playoffs (unlike every other team). I'm happy to have Joe.
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Perhaps you can at least admit that the truly interesting stat here is that, in the scenario you describe (on the road in the playoffs) the Ravens' defense has held opponents to 17 points or less during that span SEVEN times while only one other team has done it more than ONCE in that same span. That is truly remarkable. The only other team to do it more than once was the Jets, who did it 3 times and are 3-0 with the venerable Mark Sanchez leading the way in those games.

Look, there's no doubt that Flacco has played well in the playoffs, and has definitely played much better than he has in the regular season. Likewise, it's not like those wins where the defense held their opponents to 17 points or less don't count. But they shouldn't be swaying people's opinions as much as they do. In the modern NFL it's very very very very easy to win when your defense holds your opponent to 17 points or less. If it wasn't than we wouldn't be in a situation where, over that same span, literally every single QB who's had the same opportunity has been successful in winning every single time. Flacco is undefeated in those games, but so is the ENTIRE REST OF THE NFL. The fact of the matter is that Baltimore was probably going to win those games whether their QB was Joe Flacco or Aaron Rodgers or Mark Sanchez or TJ Yates, all of whom are undefeated in that scenario.

Granted, there is more to Flacco's playoff performances than just those games. My almost singular point in here however, has been that this constant spouting of "look at his road playoff record!" is only very mildly relevant. There are very few QBs that wouldn't have won 8 road games in the same scenario that Flacco did.
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I think the problem with this argument is its penalizing Joe for having so many opportunities even though he has come through each time. Over that span, the Ravens weren't good enough to get home field advantage. What would Sanchez have done with 4 more opportunities on the road? we don't know, but we DO know what Joe has done. Not fair to assume and extrapolate. To me its a straw argument made because no other QB has been put in that position and succeeded like Joe.

 
Doctor Detroit said:
Doctor Detroit said:
Guaranteed the lot of you are reaching for guys who have never, nor will never have Flacco's success.
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:goodposting:
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Why do you good posting YOUR own statement? Also the point of ranking is to not just look at W/L. If all you do is look at "Flacco's" sucess that just means your looking at the team or do you argue Flacco singlehanded has won all the games since arriving in Baltimore?

He has more Playoff wins so he is better than Rodgers in your mind right? I mean Rodgers hasn't accomplished winning so many road games and likely never will.

 
JIslander said:
FreeBaGeL said:
James Daulton said:
Clearly not going to argue you guys into acceptance, don't care.

The Ravens go on the road and win in the playoffs (unlike every other team). I'm happy to have Joe.
Click to expand...
Perhaps you can at least admit that the truly interesting stat here is that, in the scenario you describe (on the road in the playoffs) the Ravens' defense has held opponents to 17 points or less during that span SEVEN times while only one other team has done it more than ONCE in that same span. That is truly remarkable. The only other team to do it more than once was the Jets, who did it 3 times and are 3-0 with the venerable Mark Sanchez leading the way in those games.

Look, there's no doubt that Flacco has played well in the playoffs, and has definitely played much better than he has in the regular season. Likewise, it's not like those wins where the defense held their opponents to 17 points or less don't count. But they shouldn't be swaying people's opinions as much as they do. In the modern NFL it's very very very very easy to win when your defense holds your opponent to 17 points or less. If it wasn't than we wouldn't be in a situation where, over that same span, literally every single QB who's had the same opportunity has been successful in winning every single time. Flacco is undefeated in those games, but so is the ENTIRE REST OF THE NFL. The fact of the matter is that Baltimore was probably going to win those games whether their QB was Joe Flacco or Aaron Rodgers or Mark Sanchez or TJ Yates, all of whom are undefeated in that scenario.

Granted, there is more to Flacco's playoff performances than just those games. My almost singular point in here however, has been that this constant spouting of "look at his road playoff record!" is only very mildly relevant. There are very few QBs that wouldn't have won 8 road games in the same scenario that Flacco did.
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I think the problem with this argument is its penalizing Joe for having so many opportunities even though he has come through each time. Over that span, the Ravens weren't good enough to get home field advantage. What would Sanchez have done with 4 more opportunities on the road? we don't know, but we DO know what Joe has done. Not fair to assume and extrapolate. To me its a straw argument made because no other QB has been put in that position and succeeded like Joe.
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I think I could guarantee Broadway Joe Style that give him 17 points or less and he wins 2-3 at least of those. Again of all playoff teams were 18-0 on the road 40-3 overall when the defense allows less than 17 points.I can look today to see what playoff teams in general are all season when this happens as well to see if it's just a playoff think or has to do with new high scoring offenses.

By the way someone else brought up Sanchez who is worse than Flacco but was brought up that even Sanchez was winning behind a great defense. This shouldn't take away from Flacco but make you realize you can't just point to road wins and say now he is great.

 
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Doctor Detroit said:
TDorBust said:
Who would you take over Flacco? I think this is an important question as well.
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There aren't ten QBs, I can tell you that. For the purpose of this thread and for all the people who think Flacco stink, I'd like to see your list right now. Guaranteed the lot of you are reaching for guys who have never, nor will never have Flacco's success.
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Guys I know I would take before flacco (real nfl not ff)

Manning, P

Brees

Brady

Rodgers

Luck

Wilson

Probably Romo and Ben

After that no one sticks out.

Run It Up said:
The above list including Romo and Ben, add Ryan, Rivers, Stafford.

Pretty much where everyone has ranked him in the previous two threads discussing Flacco's career, 12th a middling QB in a league where the bottom half of the position shouldn't even be playing.
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This is the most interesting question here. I think the Ravens' answer would be very different from the average fan's answer, because I think the Ravens drafted Flacco with their franchise's path to Super Bowl championships in mind.

To win the Super Bowl coming out of the AFC North, you have to have a QB with tremendous arm strength so he can throw outdoors in terrible weather in December and January. And you have to have a QB who is tremendously durable to stand up to the pounding he will absorb playing the hard-nosed defenses of the division twice a year. Quite honestly, I think the Ravens saw what the Steelers were doing with Big Ben and said, "We have got to get us one of those!"

Now is Joe ever going to be as good as Ben? No way - I think Ben is a truly unique talent and first ballot HOFer. But has he already won a Super Bowl and showed his ability to play the toughest defenses in the winter elements? Yes. Compare him to the annual playoff debacle that Dalton turns in - do you think Dalton would have done any better Saturday night in Pittsburgh than he did Sunday in a dome? Dalton belongs in the NFC South or AFC West.

Along those same lines, look how Matt Ryan fared vs. the AFC North this year. 0-4, with 6 TDs and 5 INTs (Flacco, BTW, was 4-0 vs. the NFC South with 11 TDs and 2 INTs). So of course the first ballot HOFers currently in the NFL are better than Flacco:

Manning, P

Brees

Brady

Rodgers

Ben

And Luck and Wilson are both amazing. But after that, I don't think there's a single QB in the NFL the Ravens would take over Flacco. Not saying that Rivers or Romo might not be better under totally neutral conditions, but when it comes to what the Ravens franchise values and needs to do to win Super Bowls, Flacco is the guy. And it's worked. As I've said before, at age 29 he's already in the Top 50 all-time for regular season wins and now the Top 10 for playoff wins, and they've been in three AFC Championship games in his first 6 years, despite playing in an era dominated by legendary QBs Manning and Brady.

 
dude is a so-so to slightly above average regular season qb, but he can flat out play in the playoffs, proof is in the pudding.

we will see again this weekend, if we can call him a truly "elite" playoff qb, but right now, the dude is rock freakin solid in crunch time

 
TDorBust said:
FreeBaGeL said:
James Daulton said:
Clearly not going to argue you guys into acceptance, don't care.

The Ravens go on the road and win in the playoffs (unlike every other team). I'm happy to have Joe.
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Perhaps you can at least admit that the truly interesting stat here is that, in the scenario you describe (on the road in the playoffs) the Ravens' defense has held opponents to 17 points or less during that span SEVEN times while only one other team has done it more than ONCE in that same span. That is truly remarkable. The only other team to do it more than once was the Jets, who did it 3 times and are 3-0 with the venerable Mark Sanchez leading the way in those games.

Look, there's no doubt that Flacco has played well in the playoffs, and has definitely played much better than he has in the regular season. Likewise, it's not like those wins where the defense held their opponents to 17 points or less don't count. But they shouldn't be swaying people's opinions as much as they do. In the modern NFL it's very very very very easy to win when your defense holds your opponent to 17 points or less. If it wasn't than we wouldn't be in a situation where, over that same span, literally every single QB who's had the same opportunity has been successful in winning every single time. Flacco is undefeated in those games, but so is the ENTIRE REST OF THE NFL. The fact of the matter is that Baltimore was probably going to win those games whether their QB was Joe Flacco or Aaron Rodgers or Mark Sanchez or TJ Yates, all of whom are undefeated in that scenario.

Granted, there is more to Flacco's playoff performances than just those games. My almost singular point in here however, has been that this constant spouting of "look at his road playoff record!" is only very mildly relevant. There are very few QBs that wouldn't have won those 8 road games in the same scenario that Flacco did.
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+1 for a great post

To James: Who would you take over Flacco? I think this is an important question as well.
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For this year, the only QBs I'd take over Flacco are:

Manning

Brees

Rodgers

Brady

Luck

Wilson

Ben

For the next three years, you can drop Manning from that list.

Another note on the Ravens. They are now tied with Green Bay for the most road playoff wins in the history of the NFL. The Ravens have been a franchise for 18 years. Most of those wins came with Flacco at the helm. Now I know you'll talk about the defense being responsible, but are you telling me that no other team that's been around since the first Super Bowl has had a good enough defense during these times to win road playoff games. The first superbowl was played in 1967, that's a 30 year headstart most teams have on the Ravens.

 
bucsbaby said:
To those arguing in favour of the defense, something else to keep in mind is that it is a lot easier to hold the opposing team to less than 17 points when the offense isn't turning the ball over, giving the other team short fields, etc., and when the offense is sustaining drives and keeping the defense (and opposing offense) off the field.

No one should confuse Flacco with Brady, but give the guy his due.
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someone gets it

 
The_Man said:
Ravens' 41 rushing yards Saturday was 3rd lowest total for a winning playoff team since 2000
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Good for them, Flacco is a good QB (as I keep saying) with a good/great defense but he is not the best playoff QB in history as the media seems to want to portray him and that has been my argument this whole time.

 
TDorBust said:
The_Man said:
Ravens' 41 rushing yards Saturday was 3rd lowest total for a winning playoff team since 2000
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Good for them, Flacco is a good QB (as I keep saying) with a good/great defense but he is not the best playoff QB in history as the media seems to want to portray him and that has been my argument this whole time.
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TDorBust said:
The_Man said:
Ravens' 41 rushing yards Saturday was 3rd lowest total for a winning playoff team since 2000
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Good for them, Flacco is a good QB (as I keep saying) with a good/great defense but he is not the best playoff QB in history as the media seems to want to portray him and that has been my argument this whole time.
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You seemed to have changed your "argument". Why don't you worry more about your boy Rodgers vs. Seattle than picking on Flacco ;) ?

 
JIslander said:
You seemed to have changed your "argument". Why don't you worry more about your boy Rodgers vs. Seattle than picking on Flacco ;) ?

The_Man said:
Ravens' 41 rushing yards Saturday was 3rd lowest total for a winning playoff team since 2000
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Good for them, Flacco is a good QB (as I keep saying) with a good/great defense but he is not the best playoff QB in history as the media seems to want to portray him and that has been my argument this whole time.
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No I haven't.... WHERE DID I CHANGE? From the start: (Teams with Average or Better QBs likely will stay put with their QBs over trading for Flacco / Flacco IS GOOD / Flacco is not the best Playoff QB in history / The Ravens Defense has had some great post season games)

1st Post - Teams usually like their own QBs unless they suck http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=451722&p=17648165

2nd Post - Reiterated THOSE teams would take their QB and "Flacco is a good QB" http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=451722&p=17648199

3rd Post - Stated I was not trying to prove who was better or worse + Flacco is at the top of the 3rd tier of QBs http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=451722&page=9

4th Post - Stated again he was not mediocre + top 10 for the season passing wise + showed FootballOutsiders had him 6th on the year http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=451722&page=9

5th Post - Stating I did not blame Flacco for 2013 + stating Flacco has a top defense every year (wish packers had that) http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=451722&p=17648564

6th Post - Stated I thought he was good again + agreed he was not elite http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=451722&p=17648601

7th Post - Pushing back on Romo being considered failure if he were to lose yesterday http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=451722&p=17648656

8th Post - Stating its a fact that Flacco has had a defense a lot of games that would allow almost any PLAYOFF QB to win http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=451722&p=17649027

9th Post - "Again I am not saying Flacco stinks or is below average. I have said he is a good QB" + more talking about defense http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=451722&p=17649379

10th Post - Brady's record in playoffs >17 + <17 allowed by defense http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=451722&p=17649527

11th Post - Agree Flacco was great Super Bowl year http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=451722&p=17649568

12th Post - More about defense http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=451722&p=17649770

13th Post - Again stating Flacco is NOT BAD + more about how I really was talking about how good the defense is (Defense Good =/= Flacco Bad) http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=451722&p=17649904

14th Post - Who would you take over Flacco if anyone? http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=451722&p=17652000

15th Post - W/L does not mean who is better, you have to rank players (Flacco better record than Rodgers) http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=451722&p=17652593

16th Post - Stating Sanchez could win 2-3 of 4 games when defense allows 17 or less points (he was already 3-0 historically) http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=451722&p=17652599

17th Post - Flacco not the best playoff QB in history + Flacco is Good http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=451722&p=17655260

So can you tell me where I flip flopped how I felt? Flacco is not some GOD in the playoffs like the media wants to talk about and he gets too much credit when the defense needs to get some of the love. You would think Ravens fans would be proud that they have a really good defense and a good/really good QB as well. Just because your defense plays well doesn't mean your QB has to stink.

Look at Russell Wilson, he is going to have the same issue as Flacco in another 4-5 years if he keeps growing and gets to level of play Flacco is at in his 6th year in the league because he is blessed with a good defense. For like the 4th time I wish the Packers defense was close to as good as the Ravens has been over the last 6 years with Flacco.

 
Has it been mentioned yet that in his last 9 playoff games (going back to 2010), Flacco has 20 TDs to 2 Ints. Only 4 of these games can in the magical 2012 playoffs and most have come on the road.

Of course, he's just slightly above average and it's all the defense.

 
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Has it been mentioned that he threw 34 INT after the super bowl before last week's wild card game?

Of course, he doesn't care about regular season games or getting byes, and he just tries if and when his team squeezes into the playoffs.

 
James Daulton said:
Has it been mentioned yet that in his last 9 playoff games (going back to 2010), Flacco has 20 TDs to 2 Ints. Only 4 of these games can in the magical 2012 playoffs and most have come on the road.

Of course, he's just slightly above average and it's all the defense.
Click to expand...
Peton Manning's last 9 playoff games - 16 TDs, 7 Ints 1 away game, 2 neutral fields, the rest home

Tom Brady's last 9 playoff games - 17 TDs, 10 Ints 1 awaygame, 1 neutral field, the rest home

Flacco - 2 at home, 1 neutral field, the rest away

So other than his first 2 years in the league, Flacco has been awesome in the playoffs, almost exclusively on the road. Two of the best QBs in history have been very average in the playoffs, mostly at home.

But it's all because of Baltimore's great D.

 
James Daulton said:
James Daulton said:
Has it been mentioned yet that in his last 9 playoff games (going back to 2010), Flacco has 20 TDs to 2 Ints. Only 4 of these games can in the magical 2012 playoffs and most have come on the road.

Of course, he's just slightly above average and it's all the defense.
Click to expand...
Peton Manning's last 9 playoff games - 16 TDs, 7 Ints 1 away game, 2 neutral fields, the rest home

Tom Brady's last 9 playoff games - 17 TDs, 10 Ints 1 awaygame, 1 neutral field, the rest home

Flacco - 2 at home, 1 neutral field, the rest away

So other than his first 2 years in the league, Flacco has been awesome in the playoffs, almost exclusively on the road. Two of the best QBs in history have been very average in the playoffs, mostly at home.

But it's all because of Baltimore's great D.
Click to expand...
Mark Sanchez's stats and win/loss record are better than Peyton/Brady's as well, even though ALL of Sanchez's games were on the road and he was a rookie for 3 of them. It's not hard to protect the football and win games when your opponents aren't scoring 17+ points as often as the Ravens/Jets opponents weren't.

So here's the question. Are you willing to apply your argument to players beyond Flacco and claim that Mark Sanchez is a great QB, or are you going to choose only to apply it when you're talking about the player you like?

You can't have it both ways. So pick one. Either Mark Sanchez is an elite quarterback or performance in a small collection of playoff games behind a good defense is not a huge indication of how good a QB is.

W/L percentage in the playoffs

Flacco: 72%

Sanchez: 66%

QB Rating in the playoffs

Flacco: 88.2

Sanchez: 94.3

TD/INT ratio in the playoffs

Flacco: 2.625:1

Sanchez: 3:1

YPA in the playoffs

Flacco: 7.29

Sanchez: 7.36

By your own argument, Sanchez is an elite quarterback. So either your argument is flawed, or Sanchez is an elite QB. Which is it?

 
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FreeBaGeL said:
W/L percentage in the playoffs

Flacco: 72%

Sanchez: 66%

QB Rating in the playoffs

Flacco: 88.2

Sanchez: 94.3

TD/INT ratio in the playoffs

Flacco: 2.625:1

Sanchez: 3:1

YPA in the playoffs

Flacco: 7.29

Sanchez: 7.36
Click to expand...
All they do is win games, unless its the regular season.

 
FreeBaGeL said:
James Daulton said:
James Daulton said:
Has it been mentioned yet that in his last 9 playoff games (going back to 2010), Flacco has 20 TDs to 2 Ints. Only 4 of these games can in the magical 2012 playoffs and most have come on the road.

Of course, he's just slightly above average and it's all the defense.
Click to expand...
Peton Manning's last 9 playoff games - 16 TDs, 7 Ints 1 away game, 2 neutral fields, the rest home

Tom Brady's last 9 playoff games - 17 TDs, 10 Ints 1 awaygame, 1 neutral field, the rest home

Flacco - 2 at home, 1 neutral field, the rest away

So other than his first 2 years in the league, Flacco has been awesome in the playoffs, almost exclusively on the road. Two of the best QBs in history have been very average in the playoffs, mostly at home.

But it's all because of Baltimore's great D.
Click to expand...
Mark Sanchez's stats and win/loss record are better than Peyton/Brady's as well, even though ALL of Sanchez's games were on the road and he was a rookie for 3 of them. It's not hard to protect the football and win games when your opponents aren't scoring 17+ points as often as the Ravens/Jets opponents weren't.

So here's the question. Are you willing to apply your argument to players beyond Flacco and claim that Mark Sanchez is a great QB, or are you going to choose only to apply it when you're talking about the player you like?

You can't have it both ways. So pick one. Either Mark Sanchez is an elite quarterback or performance in a small collection of playoff games behind a good defense is not a huge indication of how good a QB is.

W/L percentage in the playoffs

Flacco: 72%

Sanchez: 66%

QB Rating in the playoffs

Flacco: 88.2

Sanchez: 94.3

TD/INT ratio in the playoffs

Flacco: 2.625:1

Sanchez: 3:1

YPA in the playoffs

Flacco: 7.29

Sanchez: 7.36

By your own argument, Sanchez is an elite quarterback. So either your argument is flawed, or Sanchez is an elite QB. Which is it?
Click to expand...
I specifically noted Flacco's last 9 games (acknowledging that in his first two seasons his numbers were really bad). Sanchez went 2 years, Flacco is on his 6th. Flacco's sample size is much larger, recent, and extended over multiple years. I held the same parameters for the two all time greats noted above.

Are you really arguing that since 2010 Flacco has been an elite playoff qb? 20TDs vs 2 Ints over 9 games is terrific, no matter how you want to spin it. The fact that Brady and Manning aren't close to those numbers should cement that for you.

Why are you trying to so hard minimize Flacco's impact on the games?

 
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