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Meachem TD scored as offense or defense play?


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#1 X42

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 11:40 AM

Meachem stripped the defender after an INT and scored. I'm thinking this is a defensive score. Otherwise rushing TD? How is NFL scoring this?

Edited by X42, 06 December 2009 - 12:43 PM.




#2 Riffraff

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 11:42 AM

He became a defender the moment the INT occurred. He could have gotten a tackle, but stripped the ball instead. Still a defensive play.
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#3 mozzy84

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 11:44 AM

defensive

#4 pinequick

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 11:46 AM

I always hate these situations.

In my mind, there are two teams that step onto the field at the beginning of the play, and that's how it stays throughout the play (no matter what happens). For example, had the Washington defender returned that INT for a TD, should those points have counted against the NO team defense (since, after the INT, the NO offense sort of "turned into" the NO defense)? I say no.

In my league, give Meachem the yardage from the point where he recovered it, and the TD.
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#5 bill bates hits hard

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 11:47 AM

wondering the same thing. d didnt get any points and meachem didnt either.

#6 fasteddie_21

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 11:48 AM

As soon as change of possession occurs, the "offense" becomes the "defense" so it obviously should be credited as a D/ST TD for the Saints. The specific player, just because he is an "offensive player" doesn't matter.

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#7 Mr. Retukes

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 11:49 AM

This is neither a defensive TD nor a rushing TD. It is technically a "fumble recovery TD". Check the official box score and you will see that Meachem does not get credit for any rushing yards or rushing TDs.

Now, how will this be scored? Well, most fantasy leagues will score it as an "Offensive Fumble Recovery TD", which means that you have to specifically check the "OFRTD" box when you set up your scoring.

A few leagues will count it as a Defensive TD. A few others will count it as a rushing TD. Some may give credit to both Meachem and the Defense. But the best way to score it is to give Meachem 6 points.

Edited by Mr. Retukes, 06 December 2009 - 11:52 AM.


#8 Mr. Retukes

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 11:51 AM

As soon as change of possession occurs, the "offense" becomes the "defense" so it obviously should be credited as a D/ST TD for the Saints. The specific player, just because he is an "offensive player" doesn't matter.

By this logic, the "defense" became the "offense" again when Meachem recovered the defense's fumble.

#9 Sarnoff

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 11:52 AM


As soon as change of possession occurs, the "offense" becomes the "defense" so it obviously should be credited as a D/ST TD for the Saints. The specific player, just because he is an "offensive player" doesn't matter.

By this logic, the "defense" became the "offense" again when Meachem recovered the defense's fumble.

Well, then the Defense would never score except for safeties if you're going by possession of the ball.

#10 fasteddie_21

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 11:52 AM



As soon as change of possession occurs, the "offense" becomes the "defense" so it obviously should be credited as a D/ST TD for the Saints. The specific player, just because he is an "offensive player" doesn't matter.

By this logic, the "defense" became the "offense" again when Meachem recovered the defense's fumble.

Well, then the Defense would never score except for safeties if you're going by possession of the ball.

Bingo.

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#11 Sarnoff

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 11:54 AM

Generally, each league has its own rules for this situation. It's not unique.

#12 Mr. Retukes

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 11:54 AM




As soon as change of possession occurs, the "offense" becomes the "defense" so it obviously should be credited as a D/ST TD for the Saints. The specific player, just because he is an "offensive player" doesn't matter.

By this logic, the "defense" became the "offense" again when Meachem recovered the defense's fumble.

Well, then the Defense would never score except for safeties if you're going by possession of the ball.

Bingo.

You just torpedoed your own argument, by the way.

#13 CaptainHook

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 11:56 AM

This is neither a defensive TD nor a rushing TD. It is technically a "fumble recovery TD". Check the official box score and you will see that Meachem does not get credit for any rushing yards or rushing TDs.

Now, how will this be scored? Well, most fantasy leagues will score it as an "Offensive Fumble Recovery TD", which means that you have to specifically check the "OFRTD" box when you set up your scoring.

A few leagues will count it as a Defensive TD. A few others will count it as a rushing TD. Some may give credit to both Meachem and the Defense. But the best way to score it is to give Meachem 6 points.

Nah this is the scoring that is used when the offense recovers its own fumble.
This is definitely a defensive fumble recovery returned for a TD

Edited by CaptainHook, 06 December 2009 - 11:58 AM.


#14 Mr. Retukes

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:00 PM


This is neither a defensive TD nor a rushing TD. It is technically a "fumble recovery TD". Check the official box score and you will see that Meachem does not get credit for any rushing yards or rushing TDs.

Now, how will this be scored? Well, most fantasy leagues will score it as an "Offensive Fumble Recovery TD", which means that you have to specifically check the "OFRTD" box when you set up your scoring.

A few leagues will count it as a Defensive TD. A few others will count it as a rushing TD. Some may give credit to both Meachem and the Defense. But the best way to score it is to give Meachem 6 points.

Nah this is the scoring that is used when the offense recovers its own fumble.

From MFL:

Offensive Fumble Recovery TD Following A Turnover.

* Scenario: Team A has the ball and passes or rushes with it.
o In a pass scenario, Team A throws an interception to Player B1 on Team B. Player B1 subsequently fumbles the ball. The recovery is made by Player A2 on Team A who runs it in for a TD.
o In a rush scenario, Player A1 on Team A fumbles the ball to Player B1 on Team B. Player B1 subsequently fumbles the ball and the resulting recovery is made by a Player A2 on Team A who runs it in for a TD.

* Result: Player A2 is awarded an ‘Offensive Fumble Recovery TD’ from the distance from the recovery to the end zone. This is not considered a Defensive Team TD because the Team A defense was not on the field.

More arguments in favor of this ruling: Footballguys article

#15 Koya

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:00 PM

For people who want to make their own set of rules and give Meachem a TD as an offensive player, a simple question:

How did Meachem get the TD? Pass reception? Run?

No - it was a fumble by the opposing player. This is cut and dry - not an offensive TD.

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#16 jm192

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:01 PM

As soon as change of possession occurs, the "offense" becomes the "defense" so it obviously should be credited as a D/ST TD for the Saints. The specific player, just because he is an "offensive player" doesn't matter.

I have Meacham as my 3rd WR in an IDP league. Does he get credited with Fumble Recovery/TD?

#17 Sarnoff

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:02 PM


As soon as change of possession occurs, the "offense" becomes the "defense" so it obviously should be credited as a D/ST TD for the Saints. The specific player, just because he is an "offensive player" doesn't matter.

I have Meacham as my 3rd WR in an IDP league. Does he get credited with Fumble Recovery/TD?

In IDP he should most definitely get credit.

#18 Mr. Retukes

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:03 PM

For people who want to make their own set of rules and give Meachem a TD as an offensive player, a simple question:How did Meachem get the TD? Pass reception? Run?No - it was a fumble by the opposing player. This is cut and dry - not an offensive TD.

Okay then, how would you score this scenario:1. Brees throws pass to Colston.2. Colston fumbles.3. Meachem recovers fumble and returns it for touchdown.

#19 Buzzbait

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:04 PM

It's a defensive TD and I'd be willing to be anyone who says otherwise that's the way it will eventually be scored on CBS Sports (note: not that they are the be all end all for right/wrong). This is the 20th year for our league and we have in our rules that this is a defensive TD. As soon as Wash intercepted the ball NO becomes the defense and the resulting strip and TD goes to any team owning the NO defensive/special teams unit.

#20 Buzzbait

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:06 PM


For people who want to make their own set of rules and give Meachem a TD as an offensive player, a simple question:How did Meachem get the TD? Pass reception? Run?No - it was a fumble by the opposing player. This is cut and dry - not an offensive TD.

Okay then, how would you score this scenario:1. Brees throws pass to Colston.2. Colston fumbles.3. Meachem recovers fumble and returns it for touchdown.

There was never a change of posession. No TD for NO defense. Meachem gets a TD with the only guestion being does Brees get points. That all depends on how the NFL scorer rules the play.

#21 Koya

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:07 PM


For people who want to make their own set of rules and give Meachem a TD as an offensive player, a simple question:How did Meachem get the TD? Pass reception? Run?No - it was a fumble by the opposing player. This is cut and dry - not an offensive TD.

Okay then, how would you score this scenario:1. Brees throws pass to Colston.2. Colston fumbles.3. Meachem recovers fumble and returns it for touchdown.

I believe that is a(n) (offensive) fumble return for TD. A lateral gets interesting as well - dont know if it counts as a run, but maybe its rushing yards? I dont think Brees would get a TD if he passed to Colston and Colston then lateralled to another player who scored.

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#22 Mr. Retukes

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:07 PM

It's a defensive TD and I'd be willing to bet anyone who says otherwise that's the way it will eventually be scored on CBS Sports

All that proves is that CBS is ignorant.

#23 fasteddie_21

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:09 PM

Mr. Retukes. The key is the change of possession.

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#24 X42

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:09 PM


For people who want to make their own set of rules and give Meachem a TD as an offensive player, a simple question:How did Meachem get the TD? Pass reception? Run?No - it was a fumble by the opposing player. This is cut and dry - not an offensive TD.

Okay then, how would you score this scenario:1. Brees throws pass to Colston.2. Colston fumbles.3. Meachem recovers fumble and returns it for touchdown.

Brees gets passing yds up to the fumble spot.Colston gets receiving yds up to the fumble spot.Meachem get rushing TD yds from fumble spot.This scenario does not have a turnover.Although I think if fumbled forward. No other offensive player can recover and move forward.

#25 Mr. Retukes

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:10 PM



For people who want to make their own set of rules and give Meachem a TD as an offensive player, a simple question:How did Meachem get the TD? Pass reception? Run?No - it was a fumble by the opposing player. This is cut and dry - not an offensive TD.

Okay then, how would you score this scenario:1. Brees throws pass to Colston.2. Colston fumbles.3. Meachem recovers fumble and returns it for touchdown.

I believe that is a(n) (offensive) fumble return for TD. A lateral gets interesting as well - dont know if it counts as a run, but maybe its rushing yards? I dont think Brees would get a TD if he passed to Colston and Colston then lateralled to another player who scored.

My point was that it doesn't have to be a "rush" or a "pass reception" for an offensive player to get a TD. They can also score TDs on fumble recoveries, which is exactly what happened with Meachem. It doesn't really matter if there were multiple changes of possession before Meachem scored. All that matters is that he was on offense.If you're going to give Meachem a TD for the scenario I described above, then you must also give him a TD for what happened today.

#26 Mr. Retukes

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:11 PM



For people who want to make their own set of rules and give Meachem a TD as an offensive player, a simple question:How did Meachem get the TD? Pass reception? Run?No - it was a fumble by the opposing player. This is cut and dry - not an offensive TD.

Okay then, how would you score this scenario:1. Brees throws pass to Colston.2. Colston fumbles.3. Meachem recovers fumble and returns it for touchdown.

Brees gets passing yds up to the fumble spot.Colston gets receiving yds up to the fumble spot.Meachem get rushing TD yds from fumble spot.This scenario does not have a turnover.

Meachem would not get a rushing TD in that scenario.

#27 MCguidance

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:13 PM

Defense.

#28 Mr. Retukes

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:13 PM

Mr. Retukes. The key is the change of possession.

fasteddie, the key is two changes of possession.

#29 CaptainHook

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:14 PM




For people who want to make their own set of rules and give Meachem a TD as an offensive player, a simple question:How did Meachem get the TD? Pass reception? Run?No - it was a fumble by the opposing player. This is cut and dry - not an offensive TD.

Okay then, how would you score this scenario:1. Brees throws pass to Colston.2. Colston fumbles.3. Meachem recovers fumble and returns it for touchdown.

I believe that is a(n) (offensive) fumble return for TD. A lateral gets interesting as well - dont know if it counts as a run, but maybe its rushing yards? I dont think Brees would get a TD if he passed to Colston and Colston then lateralled to another player who scored.

My point was that it doesn't have to be a "rush" or a "pass reception" for an offensive player to get a TD. They can also score TDs on fumble recoveries, which is exactly what happened with Meachem. It doesn't really matter if there were multiple changes of possession before Meachem scored. All that matters is that he was on offense.If you're going to give Meachem a TD for the scenario I described above, then you must also give him a TD for what happened today.

but he wasn't on offense... he was on defense

#30 az_prof

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:17 PM

If Meachem were a defensive player and he returned a fumble for a TD he would get points for the TD. Why is it any different if he is a wide receiver normally?
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#31 fsufan

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:22 PM

my leagues have the following rule for situations like this


ONLY rushing, passing and receiving TD will be credit for 6 PTs. Other type of TDs(punt returns, kickoff return, fumble recovery, ect.) will not be credited with 6 PTs.

Edited by fsufan, 06 December 2009 - 12:23 PM.


#32 todisco1

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:23 PM

Defense/ST in all my leagues.

#33 Mr. Retukes

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:23 PM


If you're going to give Meachem a TD for the scenario I described above, then you must also give him a TD for what happened today.

but he wasn't on offense... he was on defense

Meachem was on offense in both scenarios. If you're going to say that Meachem somehow "switched" from offense to defense, then you must also say that he "switched back" from defense to offense as soon as he recovered the fumble.

#34 Mr. Retukes

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:24 PM

Defense/ST in all my leagues.

What services do you use?

#35 CaptainHook

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:25 PM



If you're going to give Meachem a TD for the scenario I described above, then you must also give him a TD for what happened today.

but he wasn't on offense... he was on defense

Meachem was on offense in both scenarios. If you're going to say that Meachem somehow "switched" from offense to defense, then you must also say that he "switched back" from defense to offense as soon as he recovered the fumble.

So...you're saying there's no such thing as a defensive touchdown.. ever?

#36 Young 8

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:27 PM

Meachem was on offense in both scenarios. If you're going to say that Meachem somehow "switched" from offense to defense, then you must also say that he "switched back" from defense to offense as soon as he recovered the fumble.

what the hell are you talking ?you can't switch back

#37 Mr. Retukes

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:30 PM




If you're going to give Meachem a TD for the scenario I described above, then you must also give him a TD for what happened today.

but he wasn't on offense... he was on defense

Meachem was on offense in both scenarios. If you're going to say that Meachem somehow "switched" from offense to defense, then you must also say that he "switched back" from defense to offense as soon as he recovered the fumble.

So...you're saying there's no such thing as a defensive touchdown.. ever?

Actually, that's what your argument suggests. You're claiming that Meachem was on defense BEFORE recovering the fumble, right? Therefore, you must believe that Washington was somehow on offense at that point. And if Washington was on offense, how could they score a D/ST touchdown?

.....unless you believe that there were two defenses on the field at the same time? (Something that is impossible by NFL rules.)

#38 fasteddie_21

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:30 PM




If you're going to give Meachem a TD for the scenario I described above, then you must also give him a TD for what happened today.

but he wasn't on offense... he was on defense

Meachem was on offense in both scenarios. If you're going to say that Meachem somehow "switched" from offense to defense, then you must also say that he "switched back" from defense to offense as soon as he recovered the fumble.

So...you're saying there's no such thing as a defensive touchdown.. ever?

:D

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#39 Mr. Retukes

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:34 PM


Meachem was on offense in both scenarios. If you're going to say that Meachem somehow "switched" from offense to defense, then you must also say that he "switched back" from defense to offense as soon as he recovered the fumble.


what the hell are you talking ?

you can't switch back

Well, I would argue that you can't switch, period.

But if someone wants to make the argument that Meachem switches from offense to defense, then you must also agree that he could switch back. You can't have it both ways.

Otherwise, you must concede that Meachem remained on offense for the entire play.

Either way, Meachem gets an Offensive touchdown.

#40 Sarnoff

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:36 PM



Meachem was on offense in both scenarios. If you're going to say that Meachem somehow "switched" from offense to defense, then you must also say that he "switched back" from defense to offense as soon as he recovered the fumble.


what the hell are you talking ?

you can't switch back

Well, I would argue that you can't switch, period.

But if someone wants to make the argument that Meachem switches from offense to defense, then you must also agree that he could switch back. You can't have it both ways.

Otherwise, you must concede that Meachem remained on offense for the entire play.

Either way, Meachem gets an Offensive touchdown.

I'll argue at the time of the INT, he switched from Offense to Special Teams, and stayed there for the remainder of the play.

Washington stayed on Defense for the entirety of the play.

Edited by Sarnoff, 06 December 2009 - 12:38 PM.


#41 Buzzbait

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:39 PM


It's a defensive TD and I'd be willing to bet anyone who says otherwise that's the way it will eventually be scored on CBS Sports

All that proves is that CBS is ignorant.

I didn't mean to say that CBS would be the only one. Just using them as one example. You can deny all you want. I've seen this more than one time in the past and those that own the NO defense will get a TD from this.

#42 Mr. Retukes

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:40 PM

I'll argue at the time of the INT, he switched from Offense to Special Teams, and stayed there for the remainder of the play.

Also impossible by NFL rules. A play can only become a Special Teams play when a ball is kicked.

(Granted, you're free to re-write your fantasy rules to include these types of plays as "Special Teams" plays, but there are no league management sites that offer that setting as an option.)

#43 az_prof

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:40 PM

Meachem is "playing" defense when he scores. I would say he gets a TD, same as a defensive player would, but not "rushing" yards. It wasn't a running play, per se. It was a fumble return for a TD. Treat it like that.
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#44 az_prof

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:41 PM


I'll argue at the time of the INT, he switched from Offense to Special Teams, and stayed there for the remainder of the play.

Also impossible by NFL rules. A play can only become a Special Teams play when a ball is kicked.

(Granted, you're free to re-write your fantasy rules to include these types of plays as "Special Teams" plays, but there are no league management sites that offer that setting as an option.)

So if the kicking team fakes it and scores a TD the TD is not credited to the defense but to the individual players as "offensive" players and not ST players?
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#45 J R

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:42 PM



Meachem was on offense in both scenarios. If you're going to say that Meachem somehow "switched" from offense to defense, then you must also say that he "switched back" from defense to offense as soon as he recovered the fumble.


what the hell are you talking ?

you can't switch back

Well, I would argue that you can't switch, period.

But if someone wants to make the argument that Meachem switches from offense to defense, then you must also agree that he could switch back. You can't have it both ways.

Otherwise, you must concede that Meachem remained on offense for the entire play.

Either way, Meachem gets an Offensive touchdown.

:goodposting:

It takes some really poor reasoning to make this into a defensive TD.

#46 Crash Davis

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:43 PM

This exact situation happened twice a few years back, once with Randy McMichael and once with Keenan McCardell. I remember this because I wrote a rule about it in our league constitution called the McMichael/McCardell rule. The way we handle it is that the offensive player gets credit for the TD, but not the yards. Also we chose NOT to give the points to the Defense/ST because in our view technically neither the Defensive unit nor the Special teams unit was on the field. The technicality that the offense became the defense once there is change of possession was ignored. The fact that we also award points to the individual on kick and punt return TDs made it a more streamlined rule choice. Leagues that have been around for more than a year or two should have dealt with this fairly recently and have provisions for it.

#47 Mr. Retukes

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:44 PM



It's a defensive TD and I'd be willing to bet anyone who says otherwise that's the way it will eventually be scored on CBS Sports

All that proves is that CBS is ignorant.

I didn't mean to say that CBS would be the only one. Just using them as one example. You can deny all you want. I've seen this more than one time in the past and those that own the NO defense will get a TD from this.

I'm not "denying" anything. I know that MFL will count this as an Offensive Fumble Recovery TD. MFL will not give a TD to the D/ST. Footballguys will also count it as an offensive TD. Most league management sites will rule similarly. When this happened in 2003, Sportsline was the only site that gave the TD to the defense by default. I would not be surprised if they did it again this year.

#48 az_prof

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:45 PM

This exact situation happened twice a few years back, once with Randy McMichael and once with Keenan McCardell. I remember this because I wrote a rule about it in our league constitution called the McMichael/McCardell rule. The way we handle it is that the offensive player gets credit for the TD, but not the yards. Also we chose NOT to give the points to the Defense/ST because in our view technically neither the Defensive unit nor the Special teams unit was on the field. The technicality that the offense became the defense once there is change of possession was ignored. The fact that we also award points to the individual on kick and punt return TDs made it a more streamlined rule choice. Leagues that have been around for more than a year or two should have dealt with this fairly recently and have provisions for it.

Good reasoning and very fair rule. Well done Crash Davis.
Two time Dynasty champion in Dynasty4Ever3.

#49 Buzzbait

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:47 PM




It's a defensive TD and I'd be willing to bet anyone who says otherwise that's the way it will eventually be scored on CBS Sports

All that proves is that CBS is ignorant.

I didn't mean to say that CBS would be the only one. Just using them as one example. You can deny all you want. I've seen this more than one time in the past and those that own the NO defense will get a TD from this.

I'm not "denying" anything. I know that MFL will count this as an Offensive Fumble Recovery TD. MFL will not give a TD to the D/ST. Footballguys will also count it as an offensive TD. Most league management sites will rule similarly. When this happened in 2003, Sportsline was the only site that gave the TD to the defense by default. I would not be surprised if they did it again this year.

I've played in other leagues (i.e. not CBS) where it was ruled a defensive TD. Again...I only used them as one example. Unless your league specifically called out this type of play and decided NOT to award it to the defense I'd be willing to bet that your scoring site will give NO defense a TD. It might not be showing now but I think most will adjust and make that ruling.

#50 Mr. Retukes

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 12:48 PM



I'll argue at the time of the INT, he switched from Offense to Special Teams, and stayed there for the remainder of the play.

Also impossible by NFL rules. A play can only become a Special Teams play when a ball is kicked.

(Granted, you're free to re-write your fantasy rules to include these types of plays as "Special Teams" plays, but there are no league management sites that offer that setting as an option.)

So if the kicking team fakes it and scores a TD the TD is not credited to the defense but to the individual players as "offensive" players and not ST players?

Technically, that would be an offensive TD only. I don't think there are any league management sites that would give that TD to the D/ST by default.

Check out Hunter Smith's fake punt TD in Week 1. How many leagues gave 6 points to the Washington D/ST that week?




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