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#1 Ignoratio Elenchi

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:37 AM

So in my internet travels I came across this:

http://en.wikipedia....ers#ROBO-PUNTER

ROBO-PUNTER is a term used to describe a theoretical robot (or possibly cyborg) punter whose punts -- through a combination of power, precision, and exaggerated hangtime - are downed at the opposing team's one-yard line every time.

The term came to prominence at Football Outsiders where it had its genesis during an off-season draft-related discussion. It was proposed that no punter, not even one as skilled as the one described above, could ever be worth the first pick in the draft or the multi-million-dollar salary such a pick would command.

(I did a search here and didn't find anything about this.)

I say ROBO-PUNTER is definitely worth the #1 overall pick. My buddy says it would be a horrible move that would cripple a franchise for years. Please help us settle this debate.



#2 Chase Stuart

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:39 AM

ROBO-Punter definitely wouldn't cripple a franchise for years. How many years do you get him for? I.e., does he age?
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#3 Raider Nation

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:39 AM

Is there anything higher than the first overall pick? Because that's where he'd go.

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#4 dgreen

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:40 AM

If I'm guaranteed my opponent gets it at the 1 every time I punt, I think it's a worthy pick. Unless, of course, the RoboPunter can be duplicated. If every team could have one, then it's not worth the top pick. I would need to assured that I'd have the only one.

#5 fissure man

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:44 AM

Is there anything higher than the first overall pick? Because that's where he'd go.

:shrug:


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#6 Ignoratio Elenchi

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:45 AM

For the sake of discuession, let's say that ROBO-PUNTER is actually just a human with a cool nickname. He has the incredible ability to down punts at the one yard line every time - a punting savant, if you will - but he is otherwise just like any other human. So he will age, and he will want more money, and he cannot be duplicated, and he could potentially get injured, etc.

I still think he's easily worth the #1 overall pick.

#7 Righetti

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:45 AM

if for no other reason than the fact you are getting a 'sure thing' with the 1.01 this might be worth it.

There have been so many busts, with Robo-Punter you at least know what you are getting

#8 TLEF316

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:46 AM

i was thinking about a similar topic after the jets game on saturday. (watching Jay Feely punt due to injury to weatherford).

How high would a player be drafted if he the best kicker AND best punter in the league?
What if he was only top 5 at each position?
What if he was only average?

How much is one extra roster spot (or maybe 2 for the teams that carry a KO specialist) worth?
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one show that we all love is hard knock training with jets. uncle klompit like it so much that he want to be a coach now. it turn out that pop warners league in our town need a coach and uncle klompit decide to start there. he wanted to be just like that coach of jets so first practice he sit them kids down and start sayin #### this and #### them and ####. i guess that is a big no-no because they fire him like 10 minute later and some lady is now the coach. uncle klompit say if he get another chance to be a coach that instead of actually sayin "####s" he just gonna hold up middle finger. kipper say it may work because coachin is about adjustments.


#9 TLEF316

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:47 AM

and i would take RP at 1.1 provided he didnt want to paid like a franchise QB, LT or pass rusher.
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one show that we all love is hard knock training with jets. uncle klompit like it so much that he want to be a coach now. it turn out that pop warners league in our town need a coach and uncle klompit decide to start there. he wanted to be just like that coach of jets so first practice he sit them kids down and start sayin #### this and #### them and ####. i guess that is a big no-no because they fire him like 10 minute later and some lady is now the coach. uncle klompit say if he get another chance to be a coach that instead of actually sayin "####s" he just gonna hold up middle finger. kipper say it may work because coachin is about adjustments.


#10 gonzobill5

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:47 AM

If I'm guaranteed my opponent gets it at the 1 every time I punt, I think it's a worthy pick. Unless, of course, the RoboPunter can be duplicated. If every team could have one, then it's not worth the top pick. I would need to assured that I'd have the only one.

If my opponent gets the ball at the 1 every time, I think I'd load up on D-Lineman, punt on 1st down, and win many a game 4-0 on a couple safeties.

#11 Ignoratio Elenchi

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:48 AM

and i would take RP at 1.1 provided he didnt want to paid like a franchise QB, LT or pass rusher.

He's going to want to get paid like the #1 overall pick. So if he was available this year, he'd want Stafford money and then some.

#12 TLEF316

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:49 AM


and i would take RP at 1.1 provided he didnt want to paid like a franchise QB, LT or pass rusher.

He's going to want to get paid like the #1 overall pick. So if he was available this year, he'd want Stafford money and then some.

ugh. No thanks then.You can't invest that much money in a player that you will only use if you FAIL to score points.
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one show that we all love is hard knock training with jets. uncle klompit like it so much that he want to be a coach now. it turn out that pop warners league in our town need a coach and uncle klompit decide to start there. he wanted to be just like that coach of jets so first practice he sit them kids down and start sayin #### this and #### them and ####. i guess that is a big no-no because they fire him like 10 minute later and some lady is now the coach. uncle klompit say if he get another chance to be a coach that instead of actually sayin "####s" he just gonna hold up middle finger. kipper say it may work because coachin is about adjustments.


#13 gonzobill5

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:50 AM

i was thinking about a similar topic after the jets game on saturday. (watching Jay Feely punt due to injury to weatherford).How high would a player be drafted if he the best kicker AND best punter in the league?What if he was only top 5 at each position?What if he was only average?How much is one extra roster spot (or maybe 2 for the teams that carry a KO specialist) worth?

I've always wished I can go back to when I was 5 years old & practice FGs and punts so much that I could play both positions. Never understood why kickers can't be punters and vice versa. I also don't get why pitchers can't hit and hitters can't pitch.

#14 Raider Nation

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:52 AM

For the sake of discuession, let's say that ROBO-PUNTER is actually just a human with a cool nickname. He has the incredible ability to down punts at the one yard line every time - a punting savant, if you will - but he is otherwise just like any other human. So he will age, and he will want more money, and he cannot be duplicated, and he could potentially get injured, etc.

If he doesn't agree to terms, you franchise tag him every year. He'll never punt for anyone else.

Another thing. Once you get RoboPunter, you can focus ALL your attention on the defensive side of the ball. Your top two or three draft picks every year are defensive players, you get a defensive-minded head coach, you sign big defensive free agents. With a defense like that and opponents starting every drive at their own 1, you could have an offense like the 2006 Raiders and you'd still win 95% of your games.

But if your defense stinks, the opposing offense will get out of the hole most times.

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#15 bigmiiiiike

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:52 AM


and i would take RP at 1.1 provided he didnt want to paid like a franchise QB, LT or pass rusher.

He's going to want to get paid like the #1 overall pick. So if he was available this year, he'd want Stafford money and then some.

That depends if his agent is Rosenhaus or Boras. Otherwise, he might be able to be talked into taking O-line or DT money for the #1 spot. Still huge $$$, but not $75M.

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#16 dgreen

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:53 AM


and i would take RP at 1.1 provided he didnt want to paid like a franchise QB, LT or pass rusher.

He's going to want to get paid like the #1 overall pick. So if he was available this year, he'd want Stafford money and then some.

#1s are paid differently based on position. A #1 QB gets more than a #1WR. A #1 P would not get Stafford money.

#17 Drew RosenhausFan

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:54 AM



and i would take RP at 1.1 provided he didnt want to paid like a franchise QB, LT or pass rusher.

He's going to want to get paid like the #1 overall pick. So if he was available this year, he'd want Stafford money and then some.

That depends if his agent is Rosenhaus or Boras. Otherwise, he might be able to be talked into taking O-line or DT money for the #1 spot. Still huge $$$, but not $75M.

QB money or Robo Punter walks.
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#18 fissure man

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:54 AM



and i would take RP at 1.1 provided he didnt want to paid like a franchise QB, LT or pass rusher.

He's going to want to get paid like the #1 overall pick. So if he was available this year, he'd want Stafford money and then some.

ugh. No thanks then.

You can't invest that much money in a player that you will only use if you FAIL to score points.

Yea right!?!?!?!?!


RP would provide:

Amazing chances at getting safety, points, and the ball back with great field position.
Limit the opponents playbook right off the bat.
Exceptional field position on virtually every offensive series.

He would be the most dominating player the NFL has ever seen.
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#19 dgreen

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:54 AM


For the sake of discuession, let's say that ROBO-PUNTER is actually just a human with a cool nickname. He has the incredible ability to down punts at the one yard line every time - a punting savant, if you will - but he is otherwise just like any other human. So he will age, and he will want more money, and he cannot be duplicated, and he could potentially get injured, etc.

If he doesn't agree to terms, you franchise tag him every year. He'll never punt for anyone else.

Another thing. Once you get RoboPunter, you can focus ALL your attention on the defensive side of the ball. Your top two or three draft picks every year are defensive players, you get a defensive-minded head coach, you sign big defensive free agents. With a defense like that and opponents starting every drive at their own 1, you could have an offense like the 2006 Raiders and you'd still win 95% of your games.

But if your defense stinks, the opposing offense will get out of the hole most times.

I'd also be sure to have a good PR and K.

#20 MDSkinner

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:55 AM

So in my internet travels I came across this:

http://en.wikipedia....ers#ROBO-PUNTER


ROBO-PUNTER is a term used to describe a theoretical robot (or possibly cyborg) punter whose punts -- through a combination of power, precision, and exaggerated hangtime - are downed at the opposing team's one-yard line every time.

The term came to prominence at Football Outsiders where it had its genesis during an off-season draft-related discussion. It was proposed that no punter, not even one as skilled as the one described above, could ever be worth the first pick in the draft or the multi-million-dollar salary such a pick would command.

(I did a search here and didn't find anything about this.)

I say ROBO-PUNTER is definitely worth the #1 overall pick. My buddy says it would be a horrible move that would cripple a franchise for years. Please help us settle this debate.

No chance it would cripple a franchise. Any defense that gets to start at 1 yard line every single time has to have a massive advantage even if they are not that great of a defense. Consider also that if the team with RP was downed at the one yard line, you would not even worry about trying to dig yourself out of a hole, because you know that RP could punt the ball 100 yards perfectly and put the opponent at the 1. That would be an obscene advantage. The only time that special teams would be a concern would be on kickoffs. The team with RP would almost undeniably set records for the most safeties in a season.

Yeah, I am thinking that the year RP came out in the draft it would be worth forfeiting a good 4 years of number ones to be sure you got that pick.

#21 Ignoratio Elenchi

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:56 AM



and i would take RP at 1.1 provided he didnt want to paid like a franchise QB, LT or pass rusher.

He's going to want to get paid like the #1 overall pick. So if he was available this year, he'd want Stafford money and then some.

#1s are paid differently based on position. A #1 QB gets more than a #1WR. A #1 P would not get Stafford money.

ROBO-PUNTER would demand Stafford money.Since it's a fanciful argument to begin with, just assume you're going to have to pay him like a #1 overall QB. Would you take him at #1 if you knew you'd have to give him Stafford's contract +5%?

#22 TLEF316

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:56 AM




and i would take RP at 1.1 provided he didnt want to paid like a franchise QB, LT or pass rusher.

He's going to want to get paid like the #1 overall pick. So if he was available this year, he'd want Stafford money and then some.

ugh. No thanks then.

You can't invest that much money in a player that you will only use if you FAIL to score points.

Yea right!?!?!?!?!


RP would provide:

Amazing chances at getting safety, points, and the ball back with great field position.
Limit the opponents playbook right off the bat.
Exceptional field position on virtually every offensive series.

He would be the most dominating player the NFL has ever seen.

I guess. But by paying a punter all that money, you limit your self really badly at the other big money positions.

teams that are forced to spend $$ on a # 1 QB have a hard time building around it. I can't imagine how dificult it would be build a great team if you're paying your punter 20X what everybody else is.
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one show that we all love is hard knock training with jets. uncle klompit like it so much that he want to be a coach now. it turn out that pop warners league in our town need a coach and uncle klompit decide to start there. he wanted to be just like that coach of jets so first practice he sit them kids down and start sayin #### this and #### them and ####. i guess that is a big no-no because they fire him like 10 minute later and some lady is now the coach. uncle klompit say if he get another chance to be a coach that instead of actually sayin "####s" he just gonna hold up middle finger. kipper say it may work because coachin is about adjustments.


#23 dgreen

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:57 AM

Yeah, I am thinking that the year RP came out in the draft it would be worth forfeiting a good 4 years of number ones to be sure you got that pick.

:no: Rather than asking if you'd use 1.01 on him, a better question would be: How much would you give up to get him?

#24 fissure man

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:58 AM





and i would take RP at 1.1 provided he didnt want to paid like a franchise QB, LT or pass rusher.

He's going to want to get paid like the #1 overall pick. So if he was available this year, he'd want Stafford money and then some.

ugh. No thanks then.

You can't invest that much money in a player that you will only use if you FAIL to score points.

Yea right!?!?!?!?!


RP would provide:

Amazing chances at getting safety, points, and the ball back with great field position.
Limit the opponents playbook right off the bat.
Exceptional field position on virtually every offensive series.

He would be the most dominating player the NFL has ever seen.

I guess. But by paying a punter all that money, you limit your self really badly at the other big money positions.

teams that are forced to spend $$ on a # 1 QB have a hard time building around it. I can't imagine how dificult it would be build a great team if you're paying your punter 20X what everybody else is.

You wouldn't even need a great team.

Your defense would be better then the 2000 Ravens.
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#25 dgreen

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:59 AM

Hmm, thinking about this some more. If I'm punting from my own 20, I know RP can get it to the opposing team's 1. But, they can also return it. (Or can he also directionally punt it out of bounds at the one every time?) I'll need good coverage units because they'll field the punt with plenty of room to run. Opponents can pretty much set up a kickoff return on those punts. Or, if I'm punting from midfield, I'll need a great punt protection unit because my opponents will go all out to block the punt. And I wouldn't put it past them to try and rough up the punter...a lot. Injury could be a serious concern.

#26 Sammy Traveller

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:00 PM

in before this gets moved to the FFA.

i'm sick of Sidd Finch-like stories.
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#27 MDSkinner

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:00 PM




and i would take RP at 1.1 provided he didnt want to paid like a franchise QB, LT or pass rusher.

He's going to want to get paid like the #1 overall pick. So if he was available this year, he'd want Stafford money and then some.

#1s are paid differently based on position. A #1 QB gets more than a #1WR. A #1 P would not get Stafford money.

ROBO-PUNTER would demand Stafford money.Since it's a fanciful argument to begin with, just assume you're going to have to pay him like a #1 overall QB. Would you take him at #1 if you knew you'd have to give him Stafford's contract +5%?

Absolutely. And I would sign someone John Kitna or Joey Harrington to be my QB.Making the opposing team start at the 1 yard line on every series that did not start with a kickoff or turnover, who needs a great QB (IMO). Forcing them to start on the 1 so often, you have a very real chance of having an average starting field position yourself near your opponents 40. Almost FG range as an average starting field position. A team would have to go 99 yards on all but one or two series a game (unless you are a turnover machine...and with Robo Punter, why would be be a risk offensive calling team?).

#28 mattsam

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:03 PM

Can he kick the ball to the one from any where on the field?

Is there no chance that the ball would be a touch back? Obviously no one would field these punts?

If the stars align then of course you would and you would pay him Stafford +5%

He would be the best def/st player in the history of football.

#29 shader

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:04 PM

I'll take it a step further and say that any team in the NFL right now, no matter who they are, would instantly make the playoffs with Robo punter, and possibly win the super bowl.

Whichver playoff team you put him on right now would automatically be a super bowl lock.

That kind of field position would be impossible to defeat...unless you had an absolutely HORRIBLE defense and a terrible coaching staff.

#30 TLEF316

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:05 PM

would RP get the kind of girls that QB1's get or would he have to settle for punter groupies?

This is important for marketing purposes
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one show that we all love is hard knock training with jets. uncle klompit like it so much that he want to be a coach now. it turn out that pop warners league in our town need a coach and uncle klompit decide to start there. he wanted to be just like that coach of jets so first practice he sit them kids down and start sayin #### this and #### them and ####. i guess that is a big no-no because they fire him like 10 minute later and some lady is now the coach. uncle klompit say if he get another chance to be a coach that instead of actually sayin "####s" he just gonna hold up middle finger. kipper say it may work because coachin is about adjustments.


#31 MDSkinner

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:05 PM

Can he kick the ball to the one from any where on the field?Is there no chance that the ball would be a touch back? Obviously no one would field these punts?If the stars align then of course you would and you would pay him Stafford +5%He would be the best def/st player in the history of football.

If we are basing this strictly on the article then yes, it is downed at the 1 every time.

.....are downed at the opposing team's one-yard line every time.

This is a no brainer to me. No QB in the league is worth as much as this would be worth IMO.

#32 Disc Shark

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:06 PM

The Saints made the brilliant decision to draft Russell Erxleben, a punter/place kicker, with pick #11 in Round 1 of the 1979 draft. That didn't work out too well ... http://www.pro-footb.../erxlerus01.htm

#33 ATC1

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:07 PM

There would not be one QB/WR on my team to demand top salary. Instead I would run the wildcat or veer option. Punt and spend the rest of my $$$ on a top defense to score most of my points.

#34 Ditkaless Wonders

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:08 PM

He would eliminate the the fear of Hester, Cribbs, Jackson, and Harvin. He would force teams to need an average of five or more additional successful plays per scoring drive. He would limit offenses and expose them to greater danger of defensive scores. He would keep your special teamers far more healthy. Robo Punter would be the MVP every year he could continue to produce.

He would also have to watch out for jerry Jones who would take a contract out on him for damaging the "Jonesotron".

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#35 Limp Ditka

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:13 PM

The Draft Robot probably overloaded a circuit trying to properly assess this scenario.
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#36 MDSkinner

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:13 PM

If RP were ever a possibility the biggest worry would be when would he become a free agent. Because after the first year that he/she/it played and the team was incredibly dominant with the fewewst offensive yards in the history of football, the bidding war for his/her/its services would be unreal.

#37 Leroy Hoard

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:13 PM




and i would take RP at 1.1 provided he didnt want to paid like a franchise QB, LT or pass rusher.

He's going to want to get paid like the #1 overall pick. So if he was available this year, he'd want Stafford money and then some.

That depends if his agent is Rosenhaus or Boras. Otherwise, he might be able to be talked into taking O-line or DT money for the #1 spot. Still huge $$$, but not $75M.

QB money or Robo Punter walks.

Does he even know how to walk? You might have to carry him out there like a rockem-sockem robot with one moveable leg.
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#38 Demian

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:15 PM


i was thinking about a similar topic after the jets game on saturday. (watching Jay Feely punt due to injury to weatherford).How high would a player be drafted if he the best kicker AND best punter in the league?What if he was only top 5 at each position?What if he was only average?How much is one extra roster spot (or maybe 2 for the teams that carry a KO specialist) worth?

I've always wished I can go back to when I was 5 years old & practice FGs and punts so much that I could play both positions. Never understood why kickers can't be punters and vice versa. I also don't get why pitchers can't hit and hitters can't pitch.

Have you ever heard of the 10,000 hour rule? There is a theory floating around that it takes 10,000 hours of practice to become great at something. By the time you became great at two positions you'd be too old to really utilize those skills.
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#39 Raider Nation

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:23 PM

Some coach in-division would definitely put a bounty out on him.

One of your special teams scrubs getting a late hit/personal foul/ejection/fine/suspension trumps facing RP twice a year.

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#40 Chase Stuart

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:23 PM

Yeah, he'd definitely be worth a bit more than the #1 overall pick, even with the high salary.
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#41 Chase Stuart

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:24 PM

Some coach in-division would definitely put a bounty out on him.One of your special teams scrubs getting a late hit/personal foul/ejection/fine/suspension trumps facing RP twice a year.

Hasn't happened to Peyton Manning yet.
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#42 Black

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:25 PM

For the sake of discuession, let's say that ROBO-PUNTER is actually just a human with a cool nickname. He has the incredible ability to down punts at the one yard line every time - a punting savant, if you will - but he is otherwise just like any other human. So he will age, and he will want more money, and he cannot be duplicated, and he could potentially get injured, etc. I still think he's easily worth the #1 overall pick.

He and Ray Guy.

#43 Raider Nation

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:25 PM



Some coach in-division would definitely put a bounty out on him.One of your special teams scrubs getting a late hit/personal foul/ejection/fine/suspension trumps facing RP twice a year.

Hasn't happened to Peyton Manning yet.

You can't hurt Peyton Maninng. :lmao:

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#44 Chicago Hooligan

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:29 PM

This is essentially paying for a rule change (you can put the ball on their 1 anytime you want) rather than a player: obviously it is a bigger advantage than any (human) player you could draft.

#45 Neil Beaufort Zod

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:29 PM

If it's guaranteed at the 1 every time with no chance of a return, he's worth whatever you can pay him. He's the league MVP by far and a HOF for sure. That's incredibly valuable.

The problem is that fans would hate it and not want to go to the games, so the backlash would cause the NFL to ban it/him from competition.
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#46 Ignoratio Elenchi

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:31 PM



Some coach in-division would definitely put a bounty out on him.One of your special teams scrubs getting a late hit/personal foul/ejection/fine/suspension trumps facing RP twice a year.

Hasn't happened to Peyton Manning yet.

You can't hurt Peyton Maninng. :lmao:

Would you trade Peyton Manning for ROBO-PUNTER straight up?

#47 Raider Nation

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:32 PM




Some coach in-division would definitely put a bounty out on him.One of your special teams scrubs getting a late hit/personal foul/ejection/fine/suspension trumps facing RP twice a year.

Hasn't happened to Peyton Manning yet.

You can't hurt Peyton Maninng. :lmao:

Would you trade Peyton Manning for ROBO-PUNTER straight up?

Yes, as long as Curtis Painter isn't his replacement.

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Mike knows him as "Alberto Jose Alburquerque"


#48 MDSkinner

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:33 PM

Would you trade Peyton Manning for ROBO-PUNTER straight up?

Without hesitation.

This is essentially paying for a rule change (you can put the ball on their 1 anytime you want) rather than a player: obviously it is a bigger advantage than any (human) player you could draft.

For this reason.

#49 shader

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:35 PM




Some coach in-division would definitely put a bounty out on him.One of your special teams scrubs getting a late hit/personal foul/ejection/fine/suspension trumps facing RP twice a year.

Hasn't happened to Peyton Manning yet.

You can't hurt Peyton Maninng. :popcorn:

Would you trade Peyton Manning for ROBO-PUNTER straight up?

If I'm the Colts, I'd trade Peyton and Reggie for him straight up.The only thing you need on offense is a running game and a field goal kicker.Jeff Fisher would win ten straight super bowls with ROBO-PUNTER.

#50 CalBear

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:36 PM

According to Romer's paper, having the opponent pinned at their 1 yard line has an expected value of +1.6 points. That means that if you have RP, you should punt on first down any time you have the ball inside your own 40. With the ball on your own 20, a punt is about equivalent in change in expected value to a 20-yard run or pass.

A typical fourth down will have a negative point expectation, which RP will convert into a +1.6 point expectation, even better than the 20-yard play.

If you could guarantee the equivalent of a 20-yard play on offense on every first down at your own 20, you'd pay a lot for that. I think RP is worth it.




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