Results of All-Pro voting (1 Viewer)

NEW YORK (AP) -Results of The Associated Press 2009 NFL All-Pro balloting selected by a national panel of media members:

OFFENSE

Quarterback

Peyton Manning, Indianapolis, 36 1/2; Drew Brees, New Orleans, 12 1/2; Philip Rivers, San Diego, 1.

x-Running Backs

Chris Johnson, Tennessee, 50; Adrian Peterson, Minnesota, 17; Ray Rice, Baltimore, 12; Steven Jackson, St. Louis, 9; Maurice Jones-Drew, Jacksonville, 6; Thomas Jones, NY Jets, 3; DeAngelo Williams, Carolina, 1.

Fullback

Leonard Weaver, Philadelphia, 24; Le'Ron McClain, Baltimore, 14; Lousaka Polite, Miami, 9; Lawrence Vickers, Cleveland, 1; Tony Richardson, NY Jets, 1.

Tight End

Dallas Clark, Indianapolis, 25 1/2; Antonio Gates, San Diego, 10 1/2; Vernon Davis, San Francisco, 9; Jason Witten, Dallas, 4; Heath Miller, Pittsburgh, 1.

Wide Receivers

Andre Johnson, Houston, 44; Wes Welker, New England, 20; Reggie Wayne, Indianapolis, 12; Larry Fitzgerald, Arizona, 8; DeSean Jackson, Philadelphia, 6; Miles Austin, Dallas, 6; Vincent Jackson, San Diego, 2; Brandon Marshall, Denver, 2.

Tackles

Ryan Clady, Denver, 30; Joe Thomas, Cleveland, 18; Michael Roos, Tennessee, 12; Jake Long, Miami, 12; Jason Peters, Philadelphia, 5; Jon Stinchcomb, New Orleans, 5; Bryant McKinnie, Minnesota, 4; Michael Oher, Baltimore, 4; David Stewart, Tennessee, 3; Vernon Carey, Miami, 2; Andrew Whitworth, Cincinnati, 2; D'Brickashaw Ferguson, NY Jets, 2; Marcus McNeill, San Diego, 1; Willie Colon, Pittsburgh, 1.

Guards

Steve Hutchinson, Minnesota, 31; Jahri Evans, New Orleans, 28; Logan Mankins, New England, 12; Kris Dielman, San Diego, 9; Alan Faneca, NY Jets, 7; Chris Snee, NY Giants, 5; Leonard Davis, Dallas, 4; Carl Nicks, New Orleans, 3. Brandon Moore, NY Jets, 1.

Center

Nick Mangold, NY Jets, 31; Andre Gurode, Dallas, 9; Jeff Saturday, Indianapolis, 8; Shaun O'Hara, NY Giants, 2.

Placekicker

Nate Kaeding, San Diego, 27; David Akers, Philadelphia, 11; Sebastian Janikowski, Oakland, 8; Rob Bironas, Tennessee, 1; Stephen Gostkowski, New England, 1; Jeff Reed, Pittsburgh, 1; Olindo Mare, Seattle, 1.

Kick Returner

Joshua Cribbs, Cleveland, 45 1/2; DeSean Jackson, Philadelphia, 3 1/2; Percy Harvin, Minnesota, 1.

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DEFENSE

Ends

Jared Allen, Minnesota, 45; Dwight Freeney, Indianapolis, 36; Trent Cole, Philadelphia, 9; Julius Peppers, Carolina, 6; Robert Mathis, Indianapolis, 1; Andre Carter, Washington, 1; Randy Starks, Miami, 1; Will Smith, New Orleans, 1.

Tackles

Jay Ratliff, Dallas, 29; Kevin Williams, Minnesota, 24; Darnell Dockett, Arizona, 23; Haloti Ngata, Baltimore, 14; Vince Wilfork, New England, 6; Pat Williams, Minnesota, 1; Casey Hampton, Pittsburgh, 1; Tony Brown, Tennessee, 1; Cullen Jenkins, Green Bay, 1.

Outside Linebackers

Elvis Dumervil, Denver, 46; DaMarcus Ware, Dallas, 37; Brian Cushing, Houston, 5; LaMarr Woodley, Pittsburgh, 4; James Harrison, Pittsburgh, 3; Lance Briggs, Chicago, 3; Anthony Spencer, Dallas, 1; Shaun Phillips, San Diego, 1.

y-Inside Linebacker

Patrick Willis, San Francisco, 49; Ray Lewis, Baltimore, 13; David Harris, NY Jets, 10; Jon Beason, Carolina, 9; Jonathan Vilma, New Orleans, 7; DeMeco Ryans, Houston, 4; London Fletcher, Washington, 2; Curtis Lofton, Atlanta, 2; D.J. Williams, Denver, 1; Jerod Mayo, New England, 1; Gary Brackett, Indianapolis, 1.

Cornerbacks

Charles Woodson, Green Bay, 48; Darelle Revis, NY Jets, 48; Nnamdi Asomugha, Oakland, 2; Leon Hall, Cincinnati, 1; Asante Samuel, Philadelphia, 1.

Safeties

Darren Sharper, New Orleans, 46; Minnesota, Adrian Wilson, Arizona, 29; Brian Dawkins, Philadelphia, 10; Ed Reed, Baltimore, 4; Nick Collins, Green Bay, 4; Jairus Byrd, Buffalo, 3; Bernard Pollard, Houston, 1; Antoine Bethea, Indianapolis, 1; Brandon Meriweather, New England, 1; Tyvon Branch, Oakland, 1.

Punter

Shane Lechler, Oakland, 48; Donnie Jones, Rams, 1; Andy Lee, San Francisco, 1.

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x-two voters selected only one running back.

y-one voter selected only one inside linebacker.

Kind of amazing that the Packers had the #3 offense in the league and scored 461 points, yet didn't get a single vote for an offensive player.

Kitrick Taylor said:

Kind of amazing that the Packers had the #3 offense in the league and scored 461 points, yet didn't get a single vote for an offensive player.

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I could see Rodgers being on the list, but who else was good enough to bump someone off that list?

Kitrick Taylor said:

Kind of amazing that the Packers had the #3 offense in the league and scored 461 points, yet didn't get a single vote for an offensive player.

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Do you think someone deserved a vote who didn't get one?

Wasn't Jason Peters hurt most of the year?

Just Win Baby said:

Kitrick Taylor said:

Kind of amazing that the Packers had the #3 offense in the league and scored 461 points, yet didn't get a single vote for an offensive player.

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Do you think someone deserved a vote who didn't get one?

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No. Good offense.....no standouts. Rodgers good but you can't complain against Manning, Brees, and Rivers.

scrumptrulescent said:

Rodgers good but you can't complain against Manning, Brees, and Rivers.

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Rodgers had a damn good season, but he wasn't as great as any of those three guys. I am sure some will think he should have gotten at least one or two token votes, but nope. If anything, Rivers only getting one vote, while not surprising, was a bit of a head-scratcher.

Ghost Rider said:

Tackles

Jake Long, Miami,

Guards

Steve Hutchinson, Minnesota,

Outside Linebackers

LaMarr Woodley, Pittsburgh

y-Inside Linebacker

David Harris, NY Jets,

Cornerbacks

Charles Woodson, Green Bay,

Leon Hall, Cincinnati,

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Proud U of M fan! Go Blue!

Oh, and Welker as the number 2 WR for the year over Austin, Wayne or a few others? No way. All of those catches are nice, but the best WRs score touchdowns, and Welker only scored four.

Kitrick Taylor said:

Kind of amazing that the Packers had the #3 offense in the league and scored 461 points, yet didn't get a single vote for an offensive player.

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Balance

Tough to vote for Mathis when Freeney is right there I guess, sucks for him.

Interesting list. Thanks for posting.

It's kinda funny that Dawkins is listed as playing with Philly........

Well one Jag made the list at least. I think you could argue for MJD as a 2nd teamer, but as a Jags fan you learn fast to take whatever you can get with these post season awards.

Anthony Borbely said:

Kitrick Taylor said:

Kind of amazing that the Packers had the #3 offense in the league and scored 461 points, yet didn't get a single vote for an offensive player.

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I could see Rodgers being on the list, but who else was good enough to bump someone off that list?

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No problem with a Packer not being named. I just did find it amazing that they were the #3 offense and didn't receive a single vote. 65 different players got votes on offense/special teams.

Ghost Rider said:

Tight End

Dallas Clark, Indianapolis, 25 1/2; Antonio Gates, San Diego, 10 1/2; Vernon Davis, San Francisco, 9; Jason Witten, Dallas, 4; Heath Miller, Pittsburgh, 1.

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I'm surprised to see Clark run away with this. His numbers aren't that much better than Gates' or Davis', and he's basically just a receiver.

Ghost Rider said:

scrumptrulescent said:

Rodgers good but you can't complain against Manning, Brees, and Rivers.

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Rodgers had a damn good season, but he wasn't as great as any of those three guys. I am sure some will think he should have gotten at least one or two token votes, but nope. If anything, Rivers only getting one vote, while not surprising, was a bit of a head-scratcher.

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I think there are 3 things that affect this and other (e.g., MVP) voting:1. The fact that Manning won shows that voters tend to favor compiled statistics over rate statistics. The Chargers were #23 in pass attempts, and Manning had nearly 20% more attempts. So even though Rivers was arguably considerably better than Manning per attempt, voters tend to focus on the fact that Manning had more passing yards and TDs and for whatever reason ignore that he also had nearly twice as many interceptions.2. Voters tend to put an emphasis on winning, at least for QBs. Manning's team only had one more win, but some voters probably considered Manning to be 14-0, since he got pulled early from the losses.3. Reputation is a factor. Manning is viewed as the best QB, and probably the best player, in the NFL. As a multiple past 1st team All Pro and MVP winner, if he performs well enough to be very close to a couple other candidates in the end, I think it's pretty easy for voters to give him the nod rather than buck the past by choosing a new candidate. And with regard to Rivers, it probably doesn't help that he plays on the west coast for a team that doesn't play a lot of national games. Manning's games are nationally televised a lot more often.

Ghost Rider said:

Oh, and Welker as the number 2 WR for the year over Austin, Wayne or a few others? No way. All of those catches are nice, but the best WRs score touchdowns, and Welker only scored four.

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That was the most surprising selection I noticed.

Just Win Baby said:

Ghost Rider said:

scrumptrulescent said:

Rodgers good but you can't complain against Manning, Brees, and Rivers.

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Rodgers had a damn good season, but he wasn't as great as any of those three guys. I am sure some will think he should have gotten at least one or two token votes, but nope. If anything, Rivers only getting one vote, while not surprising, was a bit of a head-scratcher.

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I think there are 3 things that affect this and other (e.g., MVP) voting:1. The fact that Manning won shows that voters tend to favor compiled statistics over rate statistics. The Chargers were #23 in pass attempts, and Manning had nearly 20% more attempts. So even though Rivers was arguably better than Manning per attempt, voters tend to focus on the fact that Manning had more passing yards and TDs and for whatever reason ignore that he also had nearly twice as many interceptions.2. Voters tend to put an emphasis on winning, at least for QBs. Manning's team only had one more win, but some voters probably considered Manning to be 14-0, since he got pulled from the losses.3. Reputation is a factor. Manning is viewed as the best QB, and probably the best player, in the NFL. As a multiple past 1st team All Pro and MVP winner, if he performs well enough to be very close to a couple other candidates in the end, I think it's pretty easy for voters to give him the nod rather than buck the past by choosing a new candidate. And with regard to Rivers, it probably doesn't help that he plays on the west coast for a team that doesn't play a lot of national games. Manning's games are nationally televised a lot more often.

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Agree with all of these, along with your implications that they're not wise.

I think Schuab's season of first in passing yards 4,770 (which was 270 yards difference over 2nd), 4th in completion percentage ( 67.9% even though most attempts on the season), 4th in passing average (8.2), 5th in td's, and 7th in QB rating (at 98.6 vs Manning's 99.9), deserves an honorable mention.

JWB, those are some very fair points, especially point number 3. Manning was awesome this year, and I probably would have given him the nod, but for him to have won by such a large margin probably wasn't an indication of how close it was between him and the others.

Getting back to Welker, it just shows again how much some overrated the receptions stat. I think that TDs and YPC are much more important when it comes to WRs, and Welker comes up way short in those areas. Okay, he was second in the NFL in receiving yards, but his lack of TDs is glaring. Some like to point to his yards after catch being so high, but he catches a million passes at or around the line of scrimmage. Catching a ball two yards behind the line of scrimmage and then getting seven yards after the catch is still only a five yard catch.

Ghost Rider said:

JWB, those are some very fair points, especially point number 3. Manning was awesome this year, and I probably would have given him the nod, but for him to have won by such a large margin probably wasn't an indication of how close it was between him and the others.

Getting back to Welker, it just shows again how much some overrated the receptions stat. I think that TDs and YPC are much more important when it comes to WRs, and Welker comes up way short in those areas. Okay, he was second in the NFL in receiving yards, but his lack of TDs is glaring. Some like to point to his yards after catch being so high, but he catches a million passes at or around the line of scrimmage. Catching a ball two yards behind the line of scrimmage and then getting seven yards after the catch is still only a five yard catch.

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Well, that's not exactly what he was doing. He ranked second in the league in first down receptions.

I know, but it seems like a lot of his catches are of that variety.

And if he had more first downs than Welker, then Wayne definitely should have been ahead of him, especially since Wayne had 2 1/2 times as many TDs as him.

Carter_Can_Fly said:

I think Schuab's season of first in passing yards 4,770 (which was 270 yards difference over 2nd), 4th in completion percentage ( 67.9% even though most attempts on the season), 4th in passing average (8.2), 5th in td's, and 7th in QB rating (at 98.6 vs Manning's 99.9), deserves an honorable mention.

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Agreed! I would put both Schaub and Rodgers ahead of Rivers.

Efficiency is one thing as Rivers high average and team total points indicates... But unless you break down games, to see where Manning's passing attempts of 35.7 vs Rivers 30.4 should be seen as a negative I am not going to say Rivers season was better just because he had a higher average.

Rivers, being deadly accurate as well as super efficient in leading an offense was one thing, but is it more impressive than Manning's offensive scheming, taking what defenses give you etc. I think if you are just looking at stats then perhaps you can make a case that Rivers season was statistically as good as Manning's or perhaps even better, but if you look beyond the numbers in esablishing who is the better "all pro" than it is Manning and he rightfully recieved the most votes.

Carter_Can_Fly said:

Rivers, being deadly accurate as well as super efficient in leading an offense was one thing, but is it more impressive than Manning's offensive scheming, taking what defenses give you etc. I think if you are just looking at stats then perhaps you can make a case that Rivers season was statistically as good as Manning's or perhaps even better, but if you look beyond the numbers in esablishing who is the better "all pro" than it is Manning and he rightfully recieved the most votes.

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I agree, but you are gonna get the Rivers crew in here now pointing out every statistic where Rivers is superior to Manning, and ignoring the intangibles like Manning being like an OC on the field, his ability to affect the defense on literally every player by constantly changing the plays or whatnot, etc. But those things cannot be measured in statistics, and are only our opinions, so they don't matter.

Wadsworth said:

Well one Jag made the list at least. I think you could argue for MJD as a 2nd teamer, but as a Jags fan you learn fast to take whatever you can get with these post season awards.

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I went and looked it up just for kicks:S.Jackson - 324 car - 1,416 yards - 4.4 avg - 4 TD, 51 rec - 322 yards - 0 tdMJD - 312 car - 1391 yards - 4.5 avg - 15 TD, 53 rec - 374 yards - 1 td SJ has 25 more yards on 12 more carries and MJD has a couple more catches and 52 more receiving yards; so all that is basically a wash. Then MJD has 12 more TDs. Not that the 2nd team All Pro matters that much, but I think about such things whenever people start listing such accomplishments for HoF consideration.

Chase Stuart said:

Ghost Rider said:

JWB, those are some very fair points, especially point number 3. Manning was awesome this year, and I probably would have given him the nod, but for him to have won by such a large margin probably wasn't an indication of how close it was between him and the others.

Getting back to Welker, it just shows again how much some overrated the receptions stat. I think that TDs and YPC are much more important when it comes to WRs, and Welker comes up way short in those areas. Okay, he was second in the NFL in receiving yards, but his lack of TDs is glaring. Some like to point to his yards after catch being so high, but he catches a million passes at or around the line of scrimmage. Catching a ball two yards behind the line of scrimmage and then getting seven yards after the catch is still only a five yard catch.

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Well, that's not exactly what he was doing. He ranked second in the league in first down receptions.

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Catches for firsts downs is a stat that doesn't get enough respect. I'm not sure that's enough to vault Welker over Wayne and others, but I'm not sure catches for first isn't as meaningful as receiving TDs on some levels. To give you an idea of how undervalued the stats is, in 2008 Matt Jones finished 20th in catches for first downs and if you project out his stats to cover missed games he would have finished tied for 5th. And he was of course out of football in 2009. [/jaguaragenda]

Ghost Rider said:

Carter_Can_Fly said:

Rivers, being deadly accurate as well as super efficient in leading an offense was one thing, but is it more impressive than Manning's offensive scheming, taking what defenses give you etc. I think if you are just looking at stats then perhaps you can make a case that Rivers season was statistically as good as Manning's or perhaps even better, but if you look beyond the numbers in esablishing who is the better "all pro" than it is Manning and he rightfully recieved the most votes.

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I agree, but you are gonna get the Rivers crew in here now pointing out every statistic where Rivers is superior to Manning, and ignoring the intangibles like Manning being like an OC on the field, his ability to affect the defense on literally every player by constantly changing the plays or whatnot, etc. But those things cannot be measured in statistics, and are only our opinions, so they don't matter.

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Aren't those things reflected in his awesome passing stats? I'm pretty sure he would throw more INTs, take more sacks and have fewer yards and TDs if he wasn't an OC on the field and if he didn't constantly change the play, etc. Unless you think his whatnot is also reflected in his team's 32nd ranked rushing offense.

Carter_Can_Fly said:

Efficiency is one thing as Rivers high average and team total points indicates... But unless you break down games, to see where Manning's passing attempts of 35.7 vs Rivers 30.4 should be seen as a negative I am not going to say Rivers season was better just because he had a higher average.

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First off, let's fairly compare their passing attempts. IMO the best way to do that is to ignore Manning's last 2 games and Rivers' last game, since they were pulled early in those games. That leaves us with the following:Manning - 532 attempts in 14 games = 38.0 attempts per gameRivers - 471 attempts in 15 games = 31.4 attempts per gameSo Manning attempted 21% more passes in those games. No one has said that is a negative. 14-0 proves that. But if the point is to compare Manning to Rivers, it certainly matters. Rivers would have had to average 9.3 yards per attempt to match Manning in passing yards this season, rather than merely his league leading 8.75 ypa.And while Manning had 5 more TDs, their TD percentage was virtually the same. And Manning had 7 more interceptions... that is certainly a negative.

Carter_Can_Fly said:

Rivers, being deadly accurate as well as super efficient in leading an offense was one thing, but is it more impressive than Manning's offensive scheming, taking what defenses give you etc. I think if you are just looking at stats then perhaps you can make a case that Rivers season was statistically as good as Manning's or perhaps even better, but if you look beyond the numbers in esablishing who is the better "all pro" than it is Manning and he rightfully recieved the most votes.

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You seem to be saying let's give Manning credit for his numbers and then give him extra credit on top of that for his offensive scheming, taking what the defenses give, etc... but his numbers already reflect giving him credit for those things, since that's how he achieved the numbers. I guess I'm not following you here.

Chase Stuart said:

Ghost Rider said:

Tight End

Dallas Clark, Indianapolis, 25 1/2; Antonio Gates, San Diego, 10 1/2; Vernon Davis, San Francisco, 9; Jason Witten, Dallas, 4; Heath Miller, Pittsburgh, 1.

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I'm surprised to see Clark run away with this. His numbers aren't that much better than Gates' or Davis', and he's basically just a receiver.

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100/1100/10 TDs...how many TEs have ever hit those numbers in the same season? This is almost like the Triple Crown in Baseball...he caught a lot of balls, over 11 ypc for a TE is pretty strong, and double digit TDs for TEs might not be rare but not a lot of TEs have ever hit it. Gates had 1100 yds, but 8 TDs, and only 79 receptions which is good but it doesn't hold a candle to what Clark did. And I bet if we broke it down week by week in terms of FF which this is not really about, but in the world of FF Clark on a weekly basis was a gigantic advantage, and the first 2 weeks of the playoffs he almost single handedly won games for people, incredible.

Edited to add: Gonzo is the best ever IMO and he never was able to catch 100 balls, go over 1,000 yds and score 10 TDs in the same season. Gonzo is a 5 time All Pro and he only hit 10 TDs 3 separate times over his career. Clark was pretty special this year.

Ministry of Pain said:

Chase Stuart said:

Ghost Rider said:

Tight End

Dallas Clark, Indianapolis, 25 1/2; Antonio Gates, San Diego, 10 1/2; Vernon Davis, San Francisco, 9; Jason Witten, Dallas, 4; Heath Miller, Pittsburgh, 1.

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I'm surprised to see Clark run away with this. His numbers aren't that much better than Gates' or Davis', and he's basically just a receiver.

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100/1100/10 TDs...how many TEs have ever hit those numbers in the same season? This is almost like the Triple Crown in Baseball...he caught a lot of balls, over 11 ypc for a TE is pretty strong, and double digit TDs for TEs might not be rare but not a lot of TEs have ever hit it. Gates had 1100 yds, but 8 TDs, and only 79 receptions which is good but it doesn't hold a candle to what Clark did. And I bet if we broke it down week by week in terms of FF which this is not really about, but in the world of FF Clark on a weekly basis was a gigantic advantage, and the first 2 weeks of the playoffs he almost single handedly won games for people, incredible.

Edited to add: Gonzo is the best ever IMO and he never was able to catch 100 balls, go over 1,000 yds and score 10 TDs in the same season. Gonzo is a 5 time All Pro and he only hit 10 TDs 3 separate times over his career. Clark was pretty special this year.

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What makes him a TE?

Some of these make you scratch your head.

Welker is way too high. Vernon Davis not getting enough respect. The outside linebacker category is shifted way too in favour of those LB's playing in the 3-4. Jairus Byrd shouldn't have any votes, yet somehow he got 3. Overall too much emphasis on the 'big-play' for defensive players excluding MLB's.

awesomeness said:

The outside linebacker category is shifted way too in favour of those LB's playing in the 3-4.

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Interesting that the top vote getter at 4-3 OLB was Cushing, with Briggs #2. Both Steelers OLBs got more votes than Briggs. I think combining 4-3 ends and 3-4 OLBs (and naming 3 or 4 of them), 4-3 tackles and 3-4 ends (and naming 3), DT/NT (and naming 1 or 2) might be a better way to divide up the front seven (or eight, as the All-Pro goes).

Chase Stuart said:

Ghost Rider said:

Carter_Can_Fly said:

Rivers, being deadly accurate as well as super efficient in leading an offense was one thing, but is it more impressive than Manning's offensive scheming, taking what defenses give you etc. I think if you are just looking at stats then perhaps you can make a case that Rivers season was statistically as good as Manning's or perhaps even better, but if you look beyond the numbers in esablishing who is the better "all pro" than it is Manning and he rightfully recieved the most votes.

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I agree, but you are gonna get the Rivers crew in here now pointing out every statistic where Rivers is superior to Manning, and ignoring the intangibles like Manning being like an OC on the field, his ability to affect the defense on literally every player by constantly changing the plays or whatnot, etc. But those things cannot be measured in statistics, and are only our opinions, so they don't matter.

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Aren't those things reflected in his awesome passing stats? I'm pretty sure he would throw more INTs, take more sacks and have fewer yards and TDs if he wasn't an OC on the field and if he didn't constantly change the play, etc. Unless you think his whatnot is also reflected in his team's 32nd ranked rushing offense.

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I guess I am saying, that unless you break down game film, see what these guys were doing against defenses, were their audilbes right, what was Manning's reason for having more passing attempts than Rivers, is one offense more vertical than the other, how were the yards after catch in effecting the stat, etc etc... Statistics do not always tell the whole story and in an all pro vote I don't think it should/is based totally on statistics.

Carter_Can_Fly said:

I guess I am saying, that unless you break down game film, see what these guys were doing against defenses, were their audilbes right, what was Manning's reason for having more passing attempts than Rivers, is one offense more vertical than the other, how were the yards after catch in effecting the stat, etc etc... Statistics do not always tell the whole story and in an all pro vote I don't think it should/is based totally on statistics.

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Okay. What should it be based on? Do you think the majority of writers and voters did what you were saying, or saw Peyton Manning's name and gaudy totals?

Chase Stuart said:

Carter_Can_Fly said:

I guess I am saying, that unless you break down game film, see what these guys were doing against defenses, were their audilbes right, what was Manning's reason for having more passing attempts than Rivers, is one offense more vertical than the other, how were the yards after catch in effecting the stat, etc etc... Statistics do not always tell the whole story and in an all pro vote I don't think it should/is based totally on statistics.

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Okay. What should it be based on? Do you think the majority of writers and voters did what you were saying, or saw Peyton Manning's name and gaudy totals?

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No, I don't think a lot of them did. If you are going to make an all pro award it should be based on plenty of things.... stats, game film, situations, team success, team records, talked to other teams, players, coaches, team history, other players on your team. But that is just me.

Carter_Can_Fly said:

If you are going to make an all pro award it should be based on plenty of things.... stats, game film, situations, team success, team records, talked to other teams, players, coaches, team history, other players on your team. But that is just me.

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So did YOU do all these things?If not, what is your justification for determining that "it is Manning and he rightfully recieved the most votes"?

Yippee. craxie is now here, which means this thread will turn into a

Chase Stuart said:

Ministry of Pain said:

Chase Stuart said:

Ghost Rider said:

Tight End

Dallas Clark, Indianapolis, 25 1/2; Antonio Gates, San Diego, 10 1/2; Vernon Davis, San Francisco, 9; Jason Witten, Dallas, 4; Heath Miller, Pittsburgh, 1.

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I'm surprised to see Clark run away with this. His numbers aren't that much better than Gates' or Davis', and he's basically just a receiver.

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100/1100/10 TDs...how many TEs have ever hit those numbers in the same season? This is almost like the Triple Crown in Baseball...he caught a lot of balls, over 11 ypc for a TE is pretty strong, and double digit TDs for TEs might not be rare but not a lot of TEs have ever hit it. Gates had 1100 yds, but 8 TDs, and only 79 receptions which is good but it doesn't hold a candle to what Clark did. And I bet if we broke it down week by week in terms of FF which this is not really about, but in the world of FF Clark on a weekly basis was a gigantic advantage, and the first 2 weeks of the playoffs he almost single handedly won games for people, incredible.

Edited to add: Gonzo is the best ever IMO and he never was able to catch 100 balls, go over 1,000 yds and score 10 TDs in the same season. Gonzo is a 5 time All Pro and he only hit 10 TDs 3 separate times over his career. Clark was pretty special this year.

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What makes him a TE?

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You do this a lot. You do some research on something and reach a particular conclusion and write a blog post about it and then are "surprised" that everyone else doesn't immediately see it as you do. For the record, I've enjoyed what you've written on these topics in regards to Monk and Sharpe. But, in no way should that lead you to be surprised that, for example, AP voters don't take this into account.

dgreen said:

Chase Stuart said:

Ministry of Pain said:

Chase Stuart said:

Ghost Rider said:

Tight End

Dallas Clark, Indianapolis, 25 1/2; Antonio Gates, San Diego, 10 1/2; Vernon Davis, San Francisco, 9; Jason Witten, Dallas, 4; Heath Miller, Pittsburgh, 1.

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I'm surprised to see Clark run away with this. His numbers aren't that much better than Gates' or Davis', and he's basically just a receiver.

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100/1100/10 TDs...how many TEs have ever hit those numbers in the same season? This is almost like the Triple Crown in Baseball...he caught a lot of balls, over 11 ypc for a TE is pretty strong, and double digit TDs for TEs might not be rare but not a lot of TEs have ever hit it. Gates had 1100 yds, but 8 TDs, and only 79 receptions which is good but it doesn't hold a candle to what Clark did. And I bet if we broke it down week by week in terms of FF which this is not really about, but in the world of FF Clark on a weekly basis was a gigantic advantage, and the first 2 weeks of the playoffs he almost single handedly won games for people, incredible.

Edited to add: Gonzo is the best ever IMO and he never was able to catch 100 balls, go over 1,000 yds and score 10 TDs in the same season. Gonzo is a 5 time All Pro and he only hit 10 TDs 3 separate times over his career. Clark was pretty special this year.

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What makes him a TE?

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You do this a lot. You do some research on something and reach a particular conclusion and write a blog post about it and then are "surprised" that everyone else doesn't immediately see it as you do. For the record, I've enjoyed what you've written on these topics in regards to Monk and Sharpe. But, in no way should that lead you to be surprised that, for example, AP voters don't take this into account.

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Maybe you're right. I'm glad you've enjoyed those articles.Judy Batista wrote something similar today.

But I was responding to MoP's point, which didn't respond to my point. I think it's valid to wonder how much Clark should be penalized for being a much worse (and much less frequently utilized) blocker than someone like Davis. Gates is in between those guys as a blocker, IMO. I think it's worth asking how much more productive Davis was as a blocker than Clark when determining who should be the first-team All-Pro.

Ghost Rider said:

Oh, and Welker as the number 2 WR for the year over Austin, Wayne or a few others? No way. All of those catches are nice, but the best WRs score touchdowns, and Welker only scored four.

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Are you kidding? Welker was WITHOUT QUESTION the second best WR... on the New England Patriots.

Chase Stuart said:

I'm surprised to see Clark run away with this. His numbers aren't that much better than Gates' or Davis', and he's basically just a receiver.

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Agreed. Gates had 50 more yards on 19 fewer targets. Vernon had the TDs, but he had the lowest yards, catch%, and ypt of the trio. I would have rated them Gates/Clark/Vernon.

Ghost Rider said:

JWB, those are some very fair points, especially point number 3. Manning was awesome this year, and I probably would have given him the nod, but for him to have won by such a large margin probably wasn't an indication of how close it was between him and the others. Getting back to Welker, it just shows again how much some overrated the receptions stat. I think that TDs and YPC are much more important when it comes to WRs, and Welker comes up way short in those areas. Okay, he was second in the NFL in receiving yards, but his lack of TDs is glaring. Some like to point to his yards after catch being so high, but he catches a million passes at or around the line of scrimmage. Catching a ball two yards behind the line of scrimmage and then getting seven yards after the catch is still only a five yard catch.

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Something can be close and still a landslide. If one receiver has 90 catches for 1300 yards and 12 scores, and another has 88 catches for 1250 yards and 10 scores, and everything else is exactly equal (i.e. they had just as many highlights, played in an identical offense, faced identical coverages, etc), then the first receiver would get 100% of the votes. Doesn't change the fact that it was very, very, very close.If 100% of the voters were 51% sold on Manning and 49% sold on Rivers, then Manning would win in a landslide, but it still would have been unbelievably close.Personally, I don't hate on Welker as much as you do. The dude amassed ridiculous numbers, and you have to remember that he only played 14 games. He averaged almost 100 yards per game receiving. I think that TDs are an overrated stat (just look at San Diego, where Tomlinson scored a bazillion TDs and neither VJax nor Gates hit double digits... but who do you think was more responsible for those scores in the first place?). I'd rate mostly on yards, first downs, yards per target, and first downs per target. Welker scored unbelievably in the first two stats, but was only above average in the second two. As for receptions... I actually think that receptions are a NEGATIVE stat, because they represent the loss of a down. Tell me- if one receiver had 5 receptions for 100 yards, and another had 50 receptions for 100 yards, which receiver had the better day? Personally, I'd guarantee you that the second receiver was on the losing team, because his team burned AT LEAST FIFTY OFFENSIVE SNAPS trying to get the ball to him, and they only had 100 yards to show for it. That's pathetic. All else being equal (all else being yards and first downs), then the guy with the fewer receptions had the better day.Of course, that's just another reason to pick Gates over Clark.

Totally disagree with those of you saying Wes Welker shouldnt be on this list. He may not have scored the TD himself but the guy moves the chains consistently and put the Pats in a position to score a lot. All of those receptions do mean something in my book. He is the poster child for All Pro.

Chase Stuart said:

Maybe you're right. I'm glad you've enjoyed those articles.

Judy Batista wrote something similar today.

But I was responding to MoP's point, which didn't respond to my point. I think it's valid to wonder how much Clark should be penalized for being a much worse (and much less frequently utilized) blocker than someone like Davis. Gates is in between those guys as a blocker, IMO. I think it's worth asking how much more productive Davis was as a blocker than Clark when determining who should be the first-team All-Pro.

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Let me explain why...1. I don't want to get into a pissing contest wih you, too much respect even though I adamently disagree with many points you make, still I respect your POV.

2. If you don't acknowledge Dallas Clark as a TE than I don't know what to say. What if I said Mark Sanchez isn't really a QB, what makes him a QB? Dallas Clark is a TE, he was drafted as a TE, he plays the position of TE, yes he runs a lot of patterns but this year they had to rely on him more in the slot working the middle of the field. A lot of TEs are pass catching TEs...I don't view any TE that catches North of say 50 balls to be a guy that is going to be known as a punishing run blocking TE...those guys in the modern era don't catch a lot of balls.

We weren't creating a mold for Canton or anything but 2009 was the year of Dallas Clark at TE in the National Football League.

Ministry of Pain said:

Chase Stuart said:

Maybe you're right. I'm glad you've enjoyed those articles.

Judy Batista wrote something similar today.

But I was responding to MoP's point, which didn't respond to my point. I think it's valid to wonder how much Clark should be penalized for being a much worse (and much less frequently utilized) blocker than someone like Davis. Gates is in between those guys as a blocker, IMO. I think it's worth asking how much more productive Davis was as a blocker than Clark when determining who should be the first-team All-Pro.

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Let me explain why...1. I don't want to get into a pissing contest wih you, too much respect even though I adamently disagree with many points you make, still I respect your POV.

2. If you don't acknowledge Dallas Clark as a TE than I don't know what to say. What if I said Mark Sanchez isn't really a QB, what makes him a QB? Dallas Clark is a TE, he was drafted as a TE, he plays the position of TE, yes he runs a lot of patterns but this year they had to rely on him more in the slot working the middle of the field. A lot of TEs are pass catching TEs...I don't view any TE that catches North of say 50 balls to be a guy that is going to be known as a punishing run blocking TE...those guys in the modern era don't catch a lot of balls.

We weren't creating a mold for Canton or anything but 2009 was the year of Dallas Clark at TE in the National Football League.

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I don't think it would be a pissing contest. We can acknowledge Clark as a TE, but my complaint isn't that he "runs a lot of patterns" but that he doesn't block. Dallas Clark almost never blocks (is it because he can't? I dunno) and put up 100/1100/10. Personally, receptions numbers don't hold a lot of weight with me. Vernon Davis blocks often and blocks well, and put up 78/965/13. Clark's Colts rank last in rushing, despite having Peyton Manning at QB to keep defenses honest and two first round running backs. The 49ers have Alex Smith as QB, and while they only rank 25th in rushing they're 12th in YPC; I think Davis is at least partially responsible for SF's success on the ground.

To me, Clark's got 150 yards advantage is offset by:

1) three fewer TDs

2) significantly weaker blocking

3) significantly better QBing

Considering his team and his skillset, Clark would need to blow Davis away in the stats department, IMO, to get the nod over him.

Just my

Ghost Rider said:

Oh, and Welker as the number 2 WR for the year over Austin, Wayne or a few others? No way. All of those catches are nice, but the best WRs score touchdowns, and Welker only scored four.

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Then shouldnt Randy Moss have been All Pro? He led all WR in the league in TD's with 13 but he didnt get a single vote.

Chase Stuart said:

Ministry of Pain said:

Chase Stuart said:

Maybe you're right. I'm glad you've enjoyed those articles.

Judy Batista wrote something similar today.

But I was responding to MoP's point, which didn't respond to my point. I think it's valid to wonder how much Clark should be penalized for being a much worse (and much less frequently utilized) blocker than someone like Davis. Gates is in between those guys as a blocker, IMO. I think it's worth asking how much more productive Davis was as a blocker than Clark when determining who should be the first-team All-Pro.

Click to expand...

Let me explain why...1. I don't want to get into a pissing contest wih you, too much respect even though I adamently disagree with many points you make, still I respect your POV.

2. If you don't acknowledge Dallas Clark as a TE than I don't know what to say. What if I said Mark Sanchez isn't really a QB, what makes him a QB? Dallas Clark is a TE, he was drafted as a TE, he plays the position of TE, yes he runs a lot of patterns but this year they had to rely on him more in the slot working the middle of the field. A lot of TEs are pass catching TEs...I don't view any TE that catches North of say 50 balls to be a guy that is going to be known as a punishing run blocking TE...those guys in the modern era don't catch a lot of balls.

We weren't creating a mold for Canton or anything but 2009 was the year of Dallas Clark at TE in the National Football League.

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I don't think it would be a pissing contest. We can acknowledge Clark as a TE, but my complaint isn't that he "runs a lot of patterns" but that he doesn't block. Dallas Clark almost never blocks (is it because he can't? I dunno) and put up 100/1100/10. Personally, receptions numbers don't hold a lot of weight with me. Vernon Davis blocks often and blocks well, and put up 78/965/13. Clark's Colts rank last in rushing, despite having Peyton Manning at QB to keep defenses honest and two first round running backs. The 49ers have Alex Smith as QB, and while they only rank 25th in rushing they're 12th in YPC; I think Davis is at least partially responsible for SF's success on the ground.

To me, Clark's got 150 yards advantage is offset by:

1) three fewer TDs

2) significantly weaker blocking

3) significantly better QBing

Considering his team and his skillset, Clark would need to blow Davis away in the stats department, IMO, to get the nod over him.

Just my

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If you are deciding whether a guy is a TE or not, how often did Clark line up shoulder to shoulder with the tackle? If he lined up in the Slot the majority of the time then he is a WR not a TE.

SSOG said:

Ghost Rider said:

Oh, and Welker as the number 2 WR for the year over Austin, Wayne or a few others? No way. All of those catches are nice, but the best WRs score touchdowns, and Welker only scored four.

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Are you kidding? Welker was WITHOUT QUESTION the second best WR... on the New England Patriots.

Chase Stuart said:

I'm surprised to see Clark run away with this. His numbers aren't that much better than Gates' or Davis', and he's basically just a receiver.

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Agreed. Gates had 50 more yards on 19 fewer targets. Vernon had the TDs, but he had the lowest yards, catch%, and ypt of the trio. I would have rated them Gates/Clark/Vernon.

Ghost Rider said:

JWB, those are some very fair points, especially point number 3. Manning was awesome this year, and I probably would have given him the nod, but for him to have won by such a large margin probably wasn't an indication of how close it was between him and the others. Getting back to Welker, it just shows again how much some overrated the receptions stat. I think that TDs and YPC are much more important when it comes to WRs, and Welker comes up way short in those areas. Okay, he was second in the NFL in receiving yards, but his lack of TDs is glaring. Some like to point to his yards after catch being so high, but he catches a million passes at or around the line of scrimmage. Catching a ball two yards behind the line of scrimmage and then getting seven yards after the catch is still only a five yard catch.

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Something can be close and still a landslide. If one receiver has 90 catches for 1300 yards and 12 scores, and another has 88 catches for 1250 yards and 10 scores, and everything else is exactly equal (i.e. they had just as many highlights, played in an identical offense, faced identical coverages, etc), then the first receiver would get 100% of the votes. Doesn't change the fact that it was very, very, very close.If 100% of the voters were 51% sold on Manning and 49% sold on Rivers, then Manning would win in a landslide, but it still would have been unbelievably close.Personally, I don't hate on Welker as much as you do. The dude amassed ridiculous numbers, and you have to remember that he only played 14 games. He averaged almost 100 yards per game receiving. I think that TDs are an overrated stat (just look at San Diego, where Tomlinson scored a bazillion TDs and neither VJax nor Gates hit double digits... but who do you think was more responsible for those scores in the first place?). I'd rate mostly on yards, first downs, yards per target, and first downs per target. Welker scored unbelievably in the first two stats, but was only above average in the second two. As for receptions... I actually think that receptions are a NEGATIVE stat, because they represent the loss of a down. Tell me- if one receiver had 5 receptions for 100 yards, and another had 50 receptions for 100 yards, which receiver had the better day? Personally, I'd guarantee you that the second receiver was on the losing team, because his team burned AT LEAST FIFTY OFFENSIVE SNAPS trying to get the ball to him, and they only had 100 yards to show for it. That's pathetic. All else being equal (all else being yards and first downs), then the guy with the fewer receptions had the better day.Of course, that's just another reason to pick Gates over Clark.

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I'll just say that not all yards are created equal.

Chase Stuart said:

Ministry of Pain said:

Chase Stuart said:

Maybe you're right. I'm glad you've enjoyed those articles.

Judy Batista wrote something similar today.

But I was responding to MoP's point, which didn't respond to my point. I think it's valid to wonder how much Clark should be penalized for being a much worse (and much less frequently utilized) blocker than someone like Davis. Gates is in between those guys as a blocker, IMO. I think it's worth asking how much more productive Davis was as a blocker than Clark when determining who should be the first-team All-Pro.

Click to expand...

Let me explain why...1. I don't want to get into a pissing contest wih you, too much respect even though I adamently disagree with many points you make, still I respect your POV.

2. If you don't acknowledge Dallas Clark as a TE than I don't know what to say. What if I said Mark Sanchez isn't really a QB, what makes him a QB? Dallas Clark is a TE, he was drafted as a TE, he plays the position of TE, yes he runs a lot of patterns but this year they had to rely on him more in the slot working the middle of the field. A lot of TEs are pass catching TEs...I don't view any TE that catches North of say 50 balls to be a guy that is going to be known as a punishing run blocking TE...those guys in the modern era don't catch a lot of balls.

We weren't creating a mold for Canton or anything but 2009 was the year of Dallas Clark at TE in the National Football League.

Click to expand...

I don't think it would be a pissing contest. We can acknowledge Clark as a TE, but my complaint isn't that he "runs a lot of patterns" but that he doesn't block. Dallas Clark almost never blocks (is it because he can't? I dunno) and put up 100/1100/10. Personally, receptions numbers don't hold a lot of weight with me. Vernon Davis blocks often and blocks well, and put up 78/965/13. Clark's Colts rank last in rushing, despite having Peyton Manning at QB to keep defenses honest and two first round running backs. The 49ers have Alex Smith as QB, and while they only rank 25th in rushing they're 12th in YPC; I think Davis is at least partially responsible for SF's success on the ground.

To me, Clark's got 150 yards advantage is offset by:

1) three fewer TDs

2) significantly weaker blocking

3) significantly better QBing

Considering his team and his skillset, Clark would need to blow Davis away in the stats department, IMO, to get the nod over him.

Just my

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I will state up front I didn't own any 49ers this year and so didn't try to watch many games, and I am too lazy to look up all the stats. But wouldn't you also have to consider that Clark has to share receptions with Wayne, Garcon, etc., while Davis may not have that issue?

Texasmouth said:

Totally disagree with those of you saying Wes Welker shouldnt be on this list. He may not have scored the TD himself but the guy moves the chains consistently and put the Pats in a position to score a lot. All of those receptions do mean something in my book. He is the poster child for All Pro.

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Reggie Wayne had 2 more first downs on 13 fewer targets (and 23 fewer receptions). He also added 6 more TDs for good measure, so not only did he do a better job moving the chains consistently and putting the Colts in a position to score a lot, but he also did a better job of scoring a lot, to boot.

Ministry of Pain said:

2. If you don't acknowledge Dallas Clark as a TE than I don't know what to say. What if I said Mark Sanchez isn't really a QB, what makes him a QB? Dallas Clark is a TE, he was drafted as a TE, he plays the position of TE, yes he runs a lot of patterns but this year they had to rely on him more in the slot working the middle of the field. A lot of TEs are pass catching TEs...I don't view any TE that catches North of say 50 balls to be a guy that is going to be known as a punishing run blocking TE...those guys in the modern era don't catch a lot of balls.

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Mark Sanchez lines up at QB on 100% of his snaps, so he's a QB. I don't know the figures from this year, but there have been seasons in the past where Clark has taken more than 50% of his snaps lined up at WR... which would make him a WR, not a TE.

Andrew74 said:

I will state up front I didn't own any 49ers this year and so didn't try to watch many games, and I am too lazy to look up all the stats. But wouldn't you also have to consider that Clark has to share receptions with Wayne, Garcon, etc., while Davis may not have that issue?

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So, Clark was sharing reps with Reggie Wayne, an UFA rookie, and a 2nd year 6th rounder? Doesn't seem like anywhere near enough to offset the Peyton Manning advantage.