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Crabtree vs. Dez (1 Viewer)

Multiple Scores

Multiple Scores

Footballguy
This has been bugging me everytime I see someone say Dez has the higher "Upside" over Crabtree, the comment itself just doesn't pass the sniff test.

Stats:

Michael Crabtree

2007 - 134/1962/22 Freshman

2008 - 97/1165/19 Sophmore

2009 - 48/625/2 49ers rookie year (11 games)

Dez Bryant

2007 - 43/622/6 Freshman

2008 - 87/1480/19 Sophmore

2009 - 17/323/4 (3 games - suspended)

2007 Crabtree - Biletnikoff Award

2008 Crabtree - Biletnikoff Award

I am not sure where the common phrase that Dez Bryant has more upside comes from, why it exists is beyond me. 2007 was the first year that Michael Crabtree ever played Wide Receiver, he was a Quarterback.

High School - Crabtree attended David W. Carter High School in Dallas and played quarterback for the football team. As a senior, he passed for 870 yards and eleven touchdowns on 45 completions out of 100 attempts. He also ran for 646 yards and nine touchdowns on 100 carries.

I don't see how this guy doesn't have unlimited "Upside". Crabtree won College WR of the year both of his first two seasons playing the position, misses all of training camp and holds out the first 5 games of the year and comes in and catches everything thrown his way.

We can talk body types and style of play, Bryant is the more physical WR, that is unquestioned by me. Does this body type/style automatically make Bryant the better upside player, I really don't think so. If people are going to compare Dez Bryant to ubers studs such as Terrell Owens and Calvin Johnson then Crabtree should be compared to Jerry Rice and Larry Fitzgerald. I don't believe either should be compared to any of these players, let them prove themselves before sending either to the HOF. I keep hearing how Dez is catching everything in OTA's, Crabtree catches everything in NFL games, the guy doesn't drop any passes. I think Crabtree is still learning how to play the position of WR and is only going to get better every year.

 
I don't necessarily disagree with you but college stats are meaningless especially when they come from Texas Tech.

 
How long has it been since a SF WR has put up decent fantasy points? Dez is way ahead of Crabs in that aspect.

 
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FWIW, Daniel Jeremiah, former scout for Cleveland and Baltimore (@MoveTheSticks on Twitter) has mentioned a couple of times that he didn't know a single scout who would take Crabtree over Bryant.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but I do think it's pretty telling if that's the consensus amongst NFL scouts.

 
Mike Hass won more Biletnikoff awards than Dez. Does Hass have more upside? Does Golden Tate? Josh Reed? Troy Walters? Danario Alexander had 113/1781/14. Does he have more upside than Dez? College stats don't determine NFL upside. And even if they did... it's not like Crabs stats are all that different from Dez's. Crabtree had ridiculous freshman stats that won't be matched for a long time... but in 2008, Dez Bryant flat out outperformed Crabtree straight up, despite Crabtree playing in the most pass-heavy offense in major college football.

 
SSOG said:
Mike Hass won more Biletnikoff awards than Dez. Does Hass have more upside? Does Golden Tate? Josh Reed? Troy Walters? Danario Alexander had 113/1781/14. Does he have more upside than Dez? College stats don't determine NFL upside. And even if they did... it's not like Crabs stats are all that different from Dez's. Crabtree had ridiculous freshman stats that won't be matched for a long time... but in 2008, Dez Bryant flat out outperformed Crabtree straight up, despite Crabtree playing in the most pass-heavy offense in major college football.
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3127/41 vs. 2102/25 is pretty different to me. You're saying a WR going for 1560/20 in a year isn't much different than 1050/12? Those numbers look a lot different to me. Randy Moss, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald all won the award too so it's not like it's totally meaningless as you make it out to be. Nobody thought Josh Reed or Mike Hass had great NFL futures, the same can't be said about Michael Crabtree.
 
beto said:
How long has it been since a SF WR has put up decent fantasy points? Dez is way ahead of Crabs in that aspect.
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Jerry Rice, Terrell Owens were the last good ones we had, it's been a while. I don't expect Alex Smith to be Crabtrees quarterback for too long, I am not an Alex Smith fan at all. Romo will put up way better numbers, 1000 more yards in a year. Miles Austin will likely get 1000 more yards than the other 49ers WR Josh Morgan, I think it evens out some. I'm a huge fan of Miles Austin and he's their #1 WR right now and if he plays like he did last year that won't change anytime soon.
 
Judge Ito said:
FWIW, Daniel Jeremiah, former scout for Cleveland and Baltimore (@MoveTheSticks on Twitter) has mentioned a couple of times that he didn't know a single scout who would take Crabtree over Bryant. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but I do think it's pretty telling if that's the consensus amongst NFL scouts.
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I have a real hard time believing this. If you believe this then that's your prerogative, I'm not even going here. You really think if Crabtree was in this draft that Dallas would have had the option of taking him at 25? I don't, when the 49ers took Crabtree the 49ers/Raiders draft party I was at went bonkers and Raider fans sulked in shame......, your prerogative if you choose to believe Daniel Jeremiah.
 
You also have to figure in the QB thats throwing to them. Talented WR or not, it comes down to the guy throwing the ball.

Romo>>>>>>>>>>>any QB on the 49'ers roster

Unless we're talking pure talent, or more than just the next couple years :D

 
Multiple Scores said:
SSOG said:
Mike Hass won more Biletnikoff awards than Dez. Does Hass have more upside? Does Golden Tate? Josh Reed? Troy Walters? Danario Alexander had 113/1781/14. Does he have more upside than Dez? College stats don't determine NFL upside. And even if they did... it's not like Crabs stats are all that different from Dez's. Crabtree had ridiculous freshman stats that won't be matched for a long time... but in 2008, Dez Bryant flat out outperformed Crabtree straight up, despite Crabtree playing in the most pass-heavy offense in major college football.
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3127/41 vs. 2102/25 is pretty different to me. You're saying a WR going for 1560/20 in a year isn't much different than 1050/12? Those numbers look a lot different to me. Randy Moss, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald all won the award too so it's not like it's totally meaningless as you make it out to be. Nobody thought Josh Reed or Mike Hass had great NFL futures, the same can't be said about Michael Crabtree.
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As did Charles Rogers and Troy Edwards, who people did expect a lot from. The winners of the award aren't all studs. Most have been decent but not spectacular.Year Winner School1994 Bobby Engram Penn State1995 Terry Glenn Ohio State1996 Marcus Harris Wyoming1997 Randy Moss Marshall1998 Troy Edwards Louisiana Tech1999 Troy Walters Stanford2000 Antonio Bryant Pittsburgh2001 Josh Reed LSU2002 Charles Rogers Michigan State2003 Larry Fitzgerald Pittsburgh2004 Braylon Edwards Michigan2005 Mike Hass Oregon State2006 Calvin Johnson Georgia Tech2007 Michael Crabtree Texas Tech2008 Michael Crabtree Texas Tech2009 Golden Tate Notre Dame
 
Smells of some big time homerism in here...

Anyway, Dez is bigger (one inch and 10 lbs I believe). Dez is as fast (both ran a 4.50 40). Dez jumps higher. And there has been more hype from the people in the NFL about him (or so it has seemed to me). Dez is in a better offense. Dez has a better QB. Dez has bigger hands (half an inch). Dez has...

Dez hasn't held out and people are raving about his work ethic. Don't think that's quite how it went down in SFO...

 
FUBAR said:
Multiple Scores said:
SSOG said:
Mike Hass won more Biletnikoff awards than Dez. Does Hass have more upside? Does Golden Tate? Josh Reed? Troy Walters? Danario Alexander had 113/1781/14. Does he have more upside than Dez? College stats don't determine NFL upside. And even if they did... it's not like Crabs stats are all that different from Dez's. Crabtree had ridiculous freshman stats that won't be matched for a long time... but in 2008, Dez Bryant flat out outperformed Crabtree straight up, despite Crabtree playing in the most pass-heavy offense in major college football.
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3127/41 vs. 2102/25 is pretty different to me. You're saying a WR going for 1560/20 in a year isn't much different than 1050/12? Those numbers look a lot different to me. Randy Moss, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald all won the award too so it's not like it's totally meaningless as you make it out to be. Nobody thought Josh Reed or Mike Hass had great NFL futures, the same can't be said about Michael Crabtree.
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As did Charles Rogers and Troy Edwards, who people did expect a lot from. The winners of the award aren't all studs. Most have been decent but not spectacular.Year Winner School1994 Bobby Engram Penn State1995 Terry Glenn Ohio State1996 Marcus Harris Wyoming1997 Randy Moss Marshall1998 Troy Edwards Louisiana Tech1999 Troy Walters Stanford2000 Antonio Bryant Pittsburgh2001 Josh Reed LSU2002 Charles Rogers Michigan State2003 Larry Fitzgerald Pittsburgh2004 Braylon Edwards Michigan2005 Mike Hass Oregon State2006 Calvin Johnson Georgia Tech2007 Michael Crabtree Texas Tech2008 Michael Crabtree Texas Tech2009 Golden Tate Notre Dame
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What about players that have won the award twice?
 
Instinctive said:
Smells of some big time homerism in here...Anyway, Dez is bigger (one inch and 10 lbs I believe). Dez is as fast (both ran a 4.50 40). Dez jumps higher. And there has been more hype from the people in the NFL about him (or so it has seemed to me). Dez is in a better offense. Dez has a better QB. Dez has bigger hands (half an inch). Dez has...Dez hasn't held out and people are raving about his work ethic. Don't think that's quite how it went down in SFO...
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Altho Dez was suspended by his college teamDez also quit on basic drills during his pro day
 
Instinctive said:
Smells of some big time homerism in here...Anyway, Dez is bigger (one inch and 10 lbs I believe). Dez is as fast (both ran a 4.50 40). Dez jumps higher. And there has been more hype from the people in the NFL about him (or so it has seemed to me). Dez is in a better offense. Dez has a better QB. Dez has bigger hands (half an inch). Dez has...Dez hasn't held out and people are raving about his work ethic. Don't think that's quite how it went down in SFO...
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Doesn't Crabtree have an entourage? Also had one of his homeboys as his agent for crying out loud.
 
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I really dont think Dez will be all that .I do feel Crabtree will be a very good Wr.Im not putting Romo up on a huge pedastool thinking he will make Dez into a gret Wr. Dont get me wrong the kid has some talent but he also is a head case. Before I make any case for Dez lets see him play some downs in the nfl. We already seen Tree and he can play ball.

 
Instinctive said:
Smells of some big time homerism in here...

Anyway, Dez is bigger (one inch and 10 lbs I believe). Dez is as fast (both ran a 4.50 40). Dez jumps higher. And there has been more hype from the people in the NFL about him (or so it has seemed to me). Dez is in a better offense. Dez has a better QB. Dez has bigger hands (half an inch). Dez has...

Dez hasn't held out and people are raving about his work ethic. Don't think that's quite how it went down in SFO...
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Dez is probably faster than Crabtree. I can't argue that Crabtree has a better QB because he does not, I can't argue the 49ers offense is better than Dallas cause it is not. I disagree that Dez jumps higher, I'd put Crabtree right up there with anybody. I also believe Crabtrees arm length goes towards the argument of high jumping. Crabtree has awesome hands, He catches everything. He has a "my ball" mentality unlike anybody I've ever seen. Crabtree is still learning the WR position, going into year 4 playing WR. When did Dez start playing WR, 4th grade??? Dez is taller and bigger, Crabtree has freakish arm length though which is a huge advantage and helps make up for that 1" difference in height. Here is an interesting article.

 
Moonlight_Graham said:
Instinctive said:
Smells of some big time homerism in here...Anyway, Dez is bigger (one inch and 10 lbs I believe). Dez is as fast (both ran a 4.50 40). Dez jumps higher. And there has been more hype from the people in the NFL about him (or so it has seemed to me). Dez is in a better offense. Dez has a better QB. Dez has bigger hands (half an inch). Dez has...Dez hasn't held out and people are raving about his work ethic. Don't think that's quite how it went down in SFO...
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Doesn't Crabtree have an entourage? Also had one of his homeboys as his agent for crying out loud.
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Crabtrees agent was Eugene Parker, do you know who Dez Bryants agent is? Same guy.
 
Moonlight_Graham said:
Instinctive said:
Smells of some big time homerism in here...Anyway, Dez is bigger (one inch and 10 lbs I believe). Dez is as fast (both ran a 4.50 40). Dez jumps higher. And there has been more hype from the people in the NFL about him (or so it has seemed to me). Dez is in a better offense. Dez has a better QB. Dez has bigger hands (half an inch). Dez has...Dez hasn't held out and people are raving about his work ethic. Don't think that's quite how it went down in SFO...
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Doesn't Crabtree have an entourage? Also had one of his homeboys as his agent for crying out loud.
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Very funny post about the homeboy agent since Parker is also Dez agent. Why do people try and bring character into the argument as a Pro-Dez/Anti-Crab thing? Someone got suspended for the season, someone quit on his drills at his pro-day, someone is known as showing up late to practices and games, someones mother has been arrested more than once for selling crack. Why exactly do I have to defend Crabtree when I didn't even bring up Dez background? Let's just leave character out of this because this is a better discussion if we leave it about talent.
 
Anyone who thinks Dez has more upside than Crabtree is nuts. I'll bet anyone straight up that Crabtree puts up better numbers than Dez does this year.

 
the reason why Dez is perceived to have higher "upside" is purely physical, and you've already hinted at it. I'm not saying there's much logic to it, but that's the reason. Consider Marvin Harrison and Torry Holt. Both guys made their living running great routes and catching everything their way. But the league is littered with past and present busts who have more *strictly physical* "upside. Tyrone Calico. DHB. Charles Rogers. It doesn't take long to realize that physicality isn't everything at the WR position. But that's the logic. Most people assume that Dez has slightly more physical upside than Crabtree. Just talking about the body, not hands our routes or whatever.

If you start looking at the situation, whatever advantage Dez has in being in Dallas (better situation) is made moot by the fact that he's 1 of 2 quality WRs along with an elite TE and a stable of great RBs. Crabtree OTOH is in a worse situation, but is basically the only talented skill player outside of Davis and Gore on SF. However Romo is in the prime of his career and has always been a great stat producing QB and that should tip the scale in favor of Dez slightly. No WR in Singleterry's offense will be able to produce the stats that are possible in Dallas... of course that's fairly short term.

Also I think there's a bit of skepticism about any Texas Tech WR (or QB for that matter) because of the system. Obviously Crabtree has the talent to have been a good WR anywhere in the country, but he probably wouldn't have won the Biletnikoff awards on a typical offense because he wouldn't have had gaudy stats. In fact, he probably wouldn't have had the chance to play much early in his career at places like Texas and USC because as you mentioned he was just learning to play WR.

You're a Crabtree fan and feel that your boy has been slighted. No problem with that. With that being said, it's a bit hard to take your opinion as un-biased bc: 1.) you dismissed the opinion of a scout who was PAID by multiple NFL teams to give his professional opinion because it doesn't agree with you and 2.) you say crabtree has a "my ball" mentality unlike anyone you've ever seen. never seen steve smith? Not really a big deal, but it illustrates your fanboyism.

ETA - btw i hope i'm not coming across as a crabtree hater. that's not the case. the texas-texas tech game was probably the best college football game i've seen since vince young ran over USC in the rose bowl. i hope to see them both become studs.

 
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I think the upside comment is because Crabtree is going to be considered a possession receiver while Bryant is going to be looked at as a big play receiver. I think that's the extent of what "more upside" means.

 
Instinctive said:
Smells of some big time homerism in here...Anyway, Dez is bigger (one inch and 10 lbs I believe). Dez is as fast (both ran a 4.50 40). Dez jumps higher. And there has been more hype from the people in the NFL about him (or so it has seemed to me). Dez is in a better offense. Dez has a better QB. Dez has bigger hands (half an inch). Dez has...Dez hasn't held out and people are raving about his work ethic. Don't think that's quite how it went down in SFO...
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Find me one quote or link where Crab's work ethic is questioned. Everything I havce read has been positive about his desire and work ethic. You seem to be implying that a holdout is akin to poor work ethic, but that is apples and oranges. I am sure that you will mention his pizza eating while injured, but that is a poor parallel. He was able to walk on the field 2 weeks after signing his contract and produce. All that being said, until Dezshows me one thing in an NFL game, there is no point in th comparison.
 
two_dollars said:
Anyone who thinks Dez has more upside than Crabtree is nuts. I'll bet anyone straight up that Crabtree puts up better numbers than Dez does this year.
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So you're willing to take a second year WR who is really the only WR option on his team over a rookie WR who will likely be the third WR option for the better part of the year? Bold move. Way to stand out on a ledge there.
 
Dez is definitely the superior physical specimen. That doesn't necessarily mean he has more upside, though it could. Success at the WR position is a mixture of physical traits and football skills. Larry Fitzgerald is a relatively ordinary athlete on paper, but an excellent overall talent because his football intangibles (hand-eye coordination, instincts, body control, confidence, hands, consistency) are off the charts. That's sort of how I see Crabtree. Modest athlete. Phenomenal football player.

Dez is more of a freak athlete. That much is sure. Whether or not he'll become a better pro will depend on his ability to do the little things.

 
JamesT said:
two_dollars said:
Anyone who thinks Dez has more upside than Crabtree is nuts. I'll bet anyone straight up that Crabtree puts up better numbers than Dez does this year.
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So you're willing to take a second year WR who is really the only WR option on his team over a rookie WR who will likely be the third WR option for the better part of the year? Bold move. Way to stand out on a ledge there.
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If we aren't talking about this season's stats, what are we talking about? I'll talk about next year's upside next year. This year upside for Dez is "unrealized potential." I don't think anyone ever specified the bounds of this argument?
 
two_dollars said:
JamesT said:
two_dollars said:
Anyone who thinks Dez has more upside than Crabtree is nuts. I'll bet anyone straight up that Crabtree puts up better numbers than Dez does this year.
Click to expand...
So you're willing to take a second year WR who is really the only WR option on his team over a rookie WR who will likely be the third WR option for the better part of the year? Bold move. Way to stand out on a ledge there.
Click to expand...
If we aren't talking about this season's stats, what are we talking about? I'll talk about next year's upside next year. This year upside for Dez is "unrealized potential." I don't think anyone ever specified the bounds of this argument?
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Regardless of the bounds of the argument, I'm just saying that saying you taking Crabtree to be a better fantasy option this year isn't exactly a risk. Straight up bet or not...Now if you wanna go out on a limb then bet on what player has the better rookie year stats or 2nd year stats. Compare apples to apples...
 
Multiple Scores said:
Instinctive said:
Smells of some big time homerism in here...

Anyway, Dez is bigger (one inch and 10 lbs I believe). Dez is as fast (both ran a 4.50 40). Dez jumps higher. And there has been more hype from the people in the NFL about him (or so it has seemed to me). Dez is in a better offense. Dez has a better QB. Dez has bigger hands (half an inch). Dez has...

Dez hasn't held out and people are raving about his work ethic. Don't think that's quite how it went down in SFO...
Click to expand...
Dez is probably faster than Crabtree. I can't argue that Crabtree has a better QB because he does not, I can't argue the 49ers offense is better than Dallas cause it is not. I disagree that Dez jumps higher, I'd put Crabtree right up there with anybody. I also believe Crabtrees arm length goes towards the argument of high jumping. Crabtree has awesome hands, He catches everything. He has a "my ball" mentality unlike anybody I've ever seen. Crabtree is still learning the WR position, going into year 4 playing WR. When did Dez start playing WR, 4th grade??? Dez is taller and bigger, Crabtree has freakish arm length though which is a huge advantage and helps make up for that 1" difference in height. Here is an interesting article.
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Dez and Crabtree both measure out with 34 inch length arms. Dez has larger hands also, and Crabtree's vertical was reported at 34 inches, while Dez's vertical was reported at 38. So no, Crabtree ha sno freakish arm advantage OVER DEZ to make up for it.Point being, Dez is physically more outstanding than Crabtree in every measurable category, and evidence thus far would indicate that he puts in more work and isn't focused on the money.

 
two_dollars said:
JamesT said:
two_dollars said:
Anyone who thinks Dez has more upside than Crabtree is nuts. I'll bet anyone straight up that Crabtree puts up better numbers than Dez does this year.
Click to expand...
So you're willing to take a second year WR who is really the only WR option on his team over a rookie WR who will likely be the third WR option for the better part of the year? Bold move. Way to stand out on a ledge there.
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If we aren't talking about this season's stats, what are we talking about? I'll talk about next year's upside next year. This year upside for Dez is "unrealized potential." I don't think anyone ever specified the bounds of this argument?
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I thought the obvious interpretation was for a career...but I suppose there's the off chance that I was wrong?
 
Instinctive said:
two_dollars said:
JamesT said:
two_dollars said:
Anyone who thinks Dez has more upside than Crabtree is nuts. I'll bet anyone straight up that Crabtree puts up better numbers than Dez does this year.
Click to expand...
So you're willing to take a second year WR who is really the only WR option on his team over a rookie WR who will likely be the third WR option for the better part of the year? Bold move. Way to stand out on a ledge there.
Click to expand...
If we aren't talking about this season's stats, what are we talking about? I'll talk about next year's upside next year. This year upside for Dez is "unrealized potential." I don't think anyone ever specified the bounds of this argument?
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I thought the obvious interpretation was for a career...but I suppose there's the off chance that I was wrong?
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That was my interpretation too.
 
Instinctive said:
Multiple Scores said:
Instinctive said:
Smells of some big time homerism in here...

Anyway, Dez is bigger (one inch and 10 lbs I believe). Dez is as fast (both ran a 4.50 40). Dez jumps higher. And there has been more hype from the people in the NFL about him (or so it has seemed to me). Dez is in a better offense. Dez has a better QB. Dez has bigger hands (half an inch). Dez has...

Dez hasn't held out and people are raving about his work ethic. Don't think that's quite how it went down in SFO...
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Dez is probably faster than Crabtree. I can't argue that Crabtree has a better QB because he does not, I can't argue the 49ers offense is better than Dallas cause it is not. I disagree that Dez jumps higher, I'd put Crabtree right up there with anybody. I also believe Crabtrees arm length goes towards the argument of high jumping. Crabtree has awesome hands, He catches everything. He has a "my ball" mentality unlike anybody I've ever seen. Crabtree is still learning the WR position, going into year 4 playing WR. When did Dez start playing WR, 4th grade??? Dez is taller and bigger, Crabtree has freakish arm length though which is a huge advantage and helps make up for that 1" difference in height. Here is an interesting article.
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Dez and Crabtree both measure out with 34 inch length arms. Dez has larger hands also, and Crabtree's vertical was reported at 34 inches, while Dez's vertical was reported at 38. So no, Crabtree ha sno freakish arm advantage OVER DEZ to make up for it.Point being, Dez is physically more outstanding than Crabtree in every measurable category, and evidence thus far would indicate that he puts in more work and isn't focused on the money.
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Dez 34"Crabtree 34 1/4"

As far as Dez having larger hands I'm not sure what that helps with since Crabtree never drops passes, Crabtree has better hands as far as catching the football goes, I don't think it's debatable.

As far as Dez putting in the work, well he wasn't able to finish the three-cone drill and short shuttle, which perhaps indicates a lack of work preparing for the pro day. I never heard any reports of Crabtree dry heaving after each route he ran either, perhaps Crabtree has more stamina.

We'll have to wait and see what happens with Dez when it's time to sign a contract, don't be shocked if Eugene Parker pulls some more stunts, this time with Dez, he might think Dez deserves more than the 25th slotted money. Money hasn't come up yet, but it will so stay tuned on that.

 
Multiple Scores said:
SSOG said:
Mike Hass won more Biletnikoff awards than Dez. Does Hass have more upside? Does Golden Tate? Josh Reed? Troy Walters? Danario Alexander had 113/1781/14. Does he have more upside than Dez? College stats don't determine NFL upside. And even if they did... it's not like Crabs stats are all that different from Dez's. Crabtree had ridiculous freshman stats that won't be matched for a long time... but in 2008, Dez Bryant flat out outperformed Crabtree straight up, despite Crabtree playing in the most pass-heavy offense in major college football.
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3127/41 vs. 2102/25 is pretty different to me. You're saying a WR going for 1560/20 in a year isn't much different than 1050/12? Those numbers look a lot different to me. Randy Moss, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald all won the award too so it's not like it's totally meaningless as you make it out to be. Nobody thought Josh Reed or Mike Hass had great NFL futures, the same can't be said about Michael Crabtree.
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Let's break it down. Both Dez and Crabtree were in college for 3 years. In their first years, Bryant had 43 catches for 622 yards and 6 TDs. Crabtree had 0 catches for 0 yards and 0 TDs because he was redshirting, meaning his coach didn't think he was good enough to get on the field. After their pedestrian first season, both Crabtree and Bryant exploded on the scene. Comparing total stats over their remaining 2 years is patently unfair thanks to Bryant's suspension, but we can compare per-game averages over their two "prime seasons". In his two prime years, Crabtree had 3127 yards and 41 TDs in 26 games, good for 120.3 yards and 1.58 TDs per game. Bryant had 1803 yards and 23 TDs in 15 games, good for 120.2 yards and 1.53 TDs per game. Crabtree averaged a tenth of a yard and a twentieth of a TD more per game in his prime years compared to Bryant. Personally, I think that's the epitome of "very little difference", but hey, maybe you disagree.Second off, the fact that Moss/Johnson/Fitz won the award and had bright pro prospects while Reed and Hass won the award and had dim pro prospects should be pretty damning evidence that the Bilitnekoff award doesn't make the slightest bit of difference on a college WR's pro prospects.Long story short, your homerism is showing. We get it, you like Michael Crabtree. The fact that he's your avatar was a teensy little hint. You think that he's being disrespected, that's absolutely fine... but if you're going to provide some evidence to support that claim, do better than a college award that has no impact on professional prospects and college stats that were essentially identical. Especially because Crabtree's second Bilitnekoff was a total joke, since Bryant had the same number of TDs and 300 more receiving yards that year. Crabtree won that on the strength of a single catch (the TD vs. Texas). Had the voters given that award to Bryant like they should have in the first place, your argument would be even more ludicrous.
 
SSOG said:
Multiple Scores said:
SSOG said:
Mike Hass won more Biletnikoff awards than Dez. Does Hass have more upside? Does Golden Tate? Josh Reed? Troy Walters? Danario Alexander had 113/1781/14. Does he have more upside than Dez? College stats don't determine NFL upside. And even if they did... it's not like Crabs stats are all that different from Dez's. Crabtree had ridiculous freshman stats that won't be matched for a long time... but in 2008, Dez Bryant flat out outperformed Crabtree straight up, despite Crabtree playing in the most pass-heavy offense in major college football.
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3127/41 vs. 2102/25 is pretty different to me. You're saying a WR going for 1560/20 in a year isn't much different than 1050/12? Those numbers look a lot different to me. Randy Moss, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald all won the award too so it's not like it's totally meaningless as you make it out to be. Nobody thought Josh Reed or Mike Hass had great NFL futures, the same can't be said about Michael Crabtree.
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Let's break it down. Both Dez and Crabtree were in college for 3 years. In their first years, Bryant had 43 catches for 622 yards and 6 TDs. Crabtree had 0 catches for 0 yards and 0 TDs because he was redshirting, meaning his coach didn't think he was good enough to get on the field. After their pedestrian first season, both Crabtree and Bryant exploded on the scene. Comparing total stats over their remaining 2 years is patently unfair thanks to Bryant's suspension, but we can compare per-game averages over their two "prime seasons". In his two prime years, Crabtree had 3127 yards and 41 TDs in 26 games, good for 120.3 yards and 1.58 TDs per game. Bryant had 1803 yards and 23 TDs in 15 games, good for 120.2 yards and 1.53 TDs per game. Crabtree averaged a tenth of a yard and a twentieth of a TD more per game in his prime years compared to Bryant. Personally, I think that's the epitome of "very little difference", but hey, maybe you disagree.
Click to expand...
I disagree based on the totally bogus way you manipulated the numbers. 3127/41 vs. 2102/25 is pretty different to me. Somehow you turned 3127/41 and 2102/25 into equal numbers. 120.3 vs. 120.2 and 1.58 vs. 1.53 is what you got from 3127/41 vs. 2102/25, if I ever need help cheating my taxes and don't care about a long prison term I will give you a jingle. I am going off hard numbers, I am not going off numbers which give you the best argument to make a case, which I read, comprehended and which I disagree vehemently with. I have no desire to continue down this road with the way you distorted their college careers.
 
SSOG said:
Crabtree had 0 catches for 0 yards and 0 TDs because he was redshirting, meaning his coach didn't think he was good enough to get on the field.
Click to expand...
Michael Crabtree redshirted his freshman season of 2006 due to a transcript glitch and a position change from QB to WR.In 2007, Crabtree started his redshirt-freshman season against SMU. The Red Raiders won 49–9, and Crabtree stood out with 106 yards receiving on twelve receptions for three touchdowns. The next week, in a 45–31 win over UTEP, Crabtree continued his performance with 15 receptions, 188 yards, and two touchdowns. Against the Rice Owls, Crabtree put up 244 yards on eleven receptions for three touchdowns. In Tech's first loss of the season, against Oklahoma State, he had 14 receptions for 237 yards and three touchdowns. In a 75–7 win over Northwestern State, Crabtree had 145 yards on eight receptions for three touchdowns in only two and a half quarters of playing time. In the contest against Iowa State, Crabtree had 10 receptions for 154 yards and three touchdowns.
 
Multiple Scores said:
SSOG said:
Multiple Scores said:
SSOG said:
Mike Hass won more Biletnikoff awards than Dez. Does Hass have more upside? Does Golden Tate? Josh Reed? Troy Walters? Danario Alexander had 113/1781/14. Does he have more upside than Dez? College stats don't determine NFL upside. And even if they did... it's not like Crabs stats are all that different from Dez's. Crabtree had ridiculous freshman stats that won't be matched for a long time... but in 2008, Dez Bryant flat out outperformed Crabtree straight up, despite Crabtree playing in the most pass-heavy offense in major college football.
Click to expand...
3127/41 vs. 2102/25 is pretty different to me. You're saying a WR going for 1560/20 in a year isn't much different than 1050/12? Those numbers look a lot different to me. Randy Moss, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald all won the award too so it's not like it's totally meaningless as you make it out to be. Nobody thought Josh Reed or Mike Hass had great NFL futures, the same can't be said about Michael Crabtree.
Click to expand...
Let's break it down. Both Dez and Crabtree were in college for 3 years. In their first years, Bryant had 43 catches for 622 yards and 6 TDs. Crabtree had 0 catches for 0 yards and 0 TDs because he was redshirting, meaning his coach didn't think he was good enough to get on the field. After their pedestrian first season, both Crabtree and Bryant exploded on the scene. Comparing total stats over their remaining 2 years is patently unfair thanks to Bryant's suspension, but we can compare per-game averages over their two "prime seasons". In his two prime years, Crabtree had 3127 yards and 41 TDs in 26 games, good for 120.3 yards and 1.58 TDs per game. Bryant had 1803 yards and 23 TDs in 15 games, good for 120.2 yards and 1.53 TDs per game. Crabtree averaged a tenth of a yard and a twentieth of a TD more per game in his prime years compared to Bryant. Personally, I think that's the epitome of "very little difference", but hey, maybe you disagree.
Click to expand...
I disagree based on the totally bogus way you manipulated the numbers. 3127/41 vs. 2102/25 is pretty different to me. Somehow you turned 3127/41 and 2102/25 into equal numbers. 120.3 vs. 120.2 and 1.58 vs. 1.53 is what you got from 3127/41 vs. 2102/25, if I ever need help cheating my taxes and don't care about a long prison term I will give you a jingle. I am going off hard numbers, I am not going off numbers which give you the best argument to make a case, which I read, comprehended and which I disagree vehemently with. I have no desire to continue down this road with the way you distorted their college careers.
Click to expand...
:pickle:
 
Multiple Scores said:
Michael Crabtree redshirted his freshman season of 2006 due to a transcript glitch and a position change from QB to WR.In 2007, Crabtree started his redshirt-freshman season against SMU. The Red Raiders won 49–9, and Crabtree stood out with 106 yards receiving on twelve receptions for three touchdowns. The next week, in a 45–31 win over UTEP, Crabtree continued his performance with 15 receptions, 188 yards, and two touchdowns. Against the Rice Owls, Crabtree put up 244 yards on eleven receptions for three touchdowns. In Tech's first loss of the season, against Oklahoma State, he had 14 receptions for 237 yards and three touchdowns. In a 75–7 win over Northwestern State, Crabtree had 145 yards on eight receptions for three touchdowns in only two and a half quarters of playing time. In the contest against Iowa State, Crabtree had 10 receptions for 154 yards and three touchdowns.
Click to expand...
SMU? UTEP? Rice? Oklahoma State? Northwestern State? Iowa State? Well, I guess that settles it, then.Look, I already posted that Crabtree's per-game numbers in his second and third season are identical to Bryant's per-game numbers in his second and third season. Citing games that Crabtree put up in his second season (in the most pass-heavy offense in the nation playing against doormat pass defenses) doesn't really introduce any new information into the discussion. The transcript glitch is new information, and I appreciate that, but the larger point remains. Neither WR did anything worthwhile in his first season. Both WRs performed identically in their second and third season. Crabtree has 2 Biletnikoffs to Bryant's 0, but Crabtree's 2008 Biletnikoff was something of a joke and should have gone to Bryant (same TDs, 300 more yards, 1 fewer game played), which would have tied them at 1 apiece... and which still wouldn't have mattered, because the Biletnikoff award isn't the least bit relevant to a player's professional career, any more than the Heisman, the Outland, the Rimington, the Johnny Unitas Golden Arm, the Walter Camp, the Maxwell, the Archie Griffin, the Bronco Nagurski, the Chuck Bednarik, the Davey O'Brien, the Butkus, the Doak Walker, the Jack Lambert, the Jack Tatum, the Jim Brown, the Jim Parker, the Jim Thorpe, the John Mackey, the Lombardi, the Lott, the Groza, the Manning, the Paul Warfield, the Ray Guy, the Sammy Baugh, the Ted Hendricks, the William Campbell, or the Wuerffel.
 
Multiple Scores said:
I disagree based on the totally bogus way you manipulated the numbers. 3127/41 vs. 2102/25 is pretty different to me. Somehow you turned 3127/41 and 2102/25 into equal numbers. 120.3 vs. 120.2 and 1.58 vs. 1.53 is what you got from 3127/41 vs. 2102/25, if I ever need help cheating my taxes and don't care about a long prison term I will give you a jingle. I am going off hard numbers, I am not going off numbers which give you the best argument to make a case, which I read, comprehended and which I disagree vehemently with. I have no desire to continue down this road with the way you distorted their college careers.
Click to expand...
"Adjusting for the fact that one player put up his numbers in 26 games while the other only played 15" is not a bogus way to manipulate numbers. You know what is a bogus way to manipulate numbers, though? Comparing the total stats posted by guys who played 26 games in his prime with the stats by a guy who played 15 games in his prime. I mean, I could use your exact same logic and say that Austin Collie must be better than Michael Crabtree because he posted 50 more yards last year (in 4 more games).
 
Before we put Dez's work ethic on a pedastal and talk about he's clearly 'not in it for the money' let's see what happens when the contract talks start. Crabs/Dez has the same agent. The result may be similiar (though Dez, being further back in the 1st, may have less feeling that he has to hold out to get what he deserves) or totally different.

But regardless, it hasn't even started yet so you have no idea.

I will say this - watched Crabtree alot last season, read alot of stuff from the SF camp - his work ethic is outstanding. From the moment he showed up, he busted his tail to catch up and the stats speak for themselves.

So let's put that statement to rest as well.

I think both could be outstanding WRs - both had some attitude questions coming into the Draft. Both may be playing with a chip to prove the doubters wrong.

I'd love to have them both on any fantasy team.

 
While the key word to the topic of this thread is "upside," as indicated by the quotations, a lot of these posts are reaching back to the past. I don't know about others, but I understand "upside" as "from here on out." From now moving forward. Years past, whether it be stats, awards, or who did what when is irrelavent. The etch-a-sketch has been shaken.

Baggage, if there is any for either player, is checked at the door before they hit the field. In the end, these players will be measured by their performance and production on the field. So let's look at that.

In order to achieve their greatest potential, a player first needs opportunity. The greater the opportunity, the greater the chance to achieve their full potential. The higher upside. For the sake of discussion, let's consider the two as equal components prior to taking the field.

Component #15- playing with a franchise that is in a rebuilding mode to some degree with an unclear if not unsettled QB situation. Offense still searching for it's identity. A clear starter yet limited by a mediocre offense.

Component #88- playing with a franchise that is now peeking as a perennial powerhouse offense led by an elite QB who is just now entering his prime years. A clear starter a year from now if not sooner. Key offensive players in place for years to come.

My money is on #88.

 
Crabtree played in a 100% different offense than Dez.

I think upside has a few other factors: How good is your QB? How good is the rest of your team?

Since Dez would win these both hands down, Id rather bet on Dez.

 
I haven't been in a redraft in a while and don't own either one so I'm glad I don't have to make that choice but if I did I think I would give a slight edge to Crabtree and really the only worry I have with him is the Qb play. If Smith isn't the answer and I don't think he is the to mean SF will either have to add a average vet somewhere or start grooming another young player which will take time. Some think Davis is that guy and really I have no idea but again it's the only worry I have about Crabtree. As for Dez I think he will also have a very good career and even though I think Austin is also a stud and will take plays away from him I think both could put up nice numbers

 
Andy Herron said:
While the key word to the topic of this thread is "upside," as indicated by the quotations, a lot of these posts are reaching back to the past. I don't know about others, but I understand "upside" as "from here on out." From now moving forward. Years past, whether it be stats, awards, or who did what when is irrelavent. The etch-a-sketch has been shaken.
Click to expand...
We define "upside" and "irrelevant" differently. Upside IMO is simply the ceiling of a player's ability without worrying about the risk. Dez IMO clearly has more risk than Crabtree but he's more likely to be "the next Randy Moss" while Crabtree is still capable of being a top 5 WR. The past is relevant to show us their potential and whether they're likely to work hard, elevate their playing in key moments or snap under stress, do drugs, commit other crimes, impregnate the greater Buffalo area, etc. I don't see either as having huge character flaws and just see a lot of TO (moreso than Moss) in Dez. Hopefully he's able to be a better teammate for a longer time.
 
Those writing off the Biletnikoff Award as not being a good predictor of NFL success aren't being very smart about it. Leaving off Crabtree and Golden Tate who we can't tell much about career wise at present, there have been 13 winners. Of those, five ended up as virtual NFL nobodies (Harris, T.Edwards, Walters, Rogers, Hass), five had/are having solid NFL careers to varying degrees (Engram, Glenn, Bryant, Reed, B.Edwards) and three ended up being NFL stars (Moss, Fitzgerald, Johnson). That may not seem like great odds on the face of it, but it does mean that the Biletnikoff Award is probably a better indicator of NFL success on its own than any other individual measurement (college stats, combine performance etc.). If you filter it further just to Biletnikoff winners drafted in the first round (so excluding those NFL scouts weren't sure would translate to the pros) you have just 2 busts out of 7, which is damn good odds in the draft.

Doesn't mean Crabtree will be a great player or that he will be better than Dez. I just wanted to point out that writing off the Biletnikoff Award because Mike Hass won it is disingenuous. The same goes for writing off the Heismann because Eric Crouch won it.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
SSOG said:
Multiple Scores said:
Michael Crabtree redshirted his freshman season of 2006 due to a transcript glitch and a position change from QB to WR.

In 2007, Crabtree started his redshirt-freshman season against SMU. The Red Raiders won 49–9, and Crabtree stood out with 106 yards receiving on twelve receptions for three touchdowns. The next week, in a 45–31 win over UTEP, Crabtree continued his performance with 15 receptions, 188 yards, and two touchdowns. Against the Rice Owls, Crabtree put up 244 yards on eleven receptions for three touchdowns. In Tech's first loss of the season, against Oklahoma State, he had 14 receptions for 237 yards and three touchdowns. In a 75–7 win over Northwestern State, Crabtree had 145 yards on eight receptions for three touchdowns in only two and a half quarters of playing time. In the contest against Iowa State, Crabtree had 10 receptions for 154 yards and three touchdowns.
Click to expand...
SMU? UTEP? Rice? Oklahoma State? Northwestern State? Iowa State? Well, I guess that settles it, then.Look, I already posted that Crabtree's per-game numbers in his second and third season are identical to Bryant's per-game numbers in his second and third season. Citing games that Crabtree put up in his second season (in the most pass-heavy offense in the nation playing against doormat pass defenses) doesn't really introduce any new information into the discussion. The transcript glitch is new information, and I appreciate that, but the larger point remains. Neither WR did anything worthwhile in his first season. Both WRs performed identically in their second and third season. Crabtree has 2 Biletnikoffs to Bryant's 0, but Crabtree's 2008 Biletnikoff was something of a joke and should have gone to Bryant (same TDs, 300 more yards, 1 fewer game played), which would have tied them at 1 apiece... and which still wouldn't have mattered, because the Biletnikoff award isn't the least bit relevant to a player's professional career, any more than the Heisman, the Outland, the Rimington, the Johnny Unitas Golden Arm, the Walter Camp, the Maxwell, the Archie Griffin, the Bronco Nagurski, the Chuck Bednarik, the Davey O'Brien, the Butkus, the Doak Walker, the Jack Lambert, the Jack Tatum, the Jim Brown, the Jim Parker, the Jim Thorpe, the John Mackey, the Lombardi, the Lott, the Groza, the Manning, the Paul Warfield, the Ray Guy, the Sammy Baugh, the Ted Hendricks, the William Campbell, or the Wuerffel.
Click to expand...
I posted those stats because you claimed that Texas Tech thought Crabtree sucked too much to play, those stats were his first stats EVER at playing WR, those stats don't indicate that he sucked and wasn't ready when he goes bonkers in his first ever games playing a new position.
 
SSOG said:
Multiple Scores said:
I disagree based on the totally bogus way you manipulated the numbers. 3127/41 vs. 2102/25 is pretty different to me. Somehow you turned 3127/41 and 2102/25 into equal numbers. 120.3 vs. 120.2 and 1.58 vs. 1.53 is what you got from 3127/41 vs. 2102/25, if I ever need help cheating my taxes and don't care about a long prison term I will give you a jingle. I am going off hard numbers, I am not going off numbers which give you the best argument to make a case, which I read, comprehended and which I disagree vehemently with. I have no desire to continue down this road with the way you distorted their college careers.
Click to expand...
"Adjusting for the fact that one player put up his numbers in 26 games while the other only played 15" is not a bogus way to manipulate numbers. You know what is a bogus way to manipulate numbers, though? Comparing the total stats posted by guys who played 26 games in his prime with the stats by a guy who played 15 games in his prime. I mean, I could use your exact same logic and say that Austin Collie must be better than Michael Crabtree because he posted 50 more yards last year (in 4 more games).
Click to expand...
I don't understand what was confusing for you, I didn't include Dez stats from his Junior season here because it was only 3 games and didn't want to give anyone ammunition saying that Dez got just certain stats in 3 years. I put up Crabtree & Dez Freshman and Sophmore seasons. Dez played 26 games in 2007/2008. Crabtree played 26 games in 2007/2008. You say Crabtree first season was nothing, it was his redshirt season due to a transcript glitch or because he stunk too much as you would like people to believe. Whatever the case may be there, the first time he set foot on a football field and played the WR position and where it is listed everywhere he was a Freshman he put up 34/1962/22, that's what it says, it doesn't say Freshman 0/0/0. Crabtree/Dez = both 26 games in 2007/2008 and both are listed as Freshman and Sophmore seasons. 3127/41 vs. 2102. Pop in another 17/323/4 for 2009 for Bryant if you like. I am not going to rewrite history for you and pretend that Crabtree put up his numbers as a Sophmore and Junior and that he put up a 0/0/0 for his freshman year. Everybody knows Crabtree declared for the draft as a "Redshirt" Sophmore.
 
Andy Herron said:
While the key word to the topic of this thread is "upside," as indicated by the quotations, a lot of these posts are reaching back to the past. I don't know about others, but I understand "upside" as "from here on out." From now moving forward. Years past, whether it be stats, awards, or who did what when is irrelavent. The etch-a-sketch has been shaken.Baggage, if there is any for either player, is checked at the door before they hit the field. In the end, these players will be measured by their performance and production on the field. So let's look at that.In order to achieve their greatest potential, a player first needs opportunity. The greater the opportunity, the greater the chance to achieve their full potential. The higher upside. For the sake of discussion, let's consider the two as equal components prior to taking the field. Component #15- playing with a franchise that is in a rebuilding mode to some degree with an unclear if not unsettled QB situation. Offense still searching for it's identity. A clear starter yet limited by a mediocre offense.Component #88- playing with a franchise that is now peeking as a perennial powerhouse offense led by an elite QB who is just now entering his prime years. A clear starter a year from now if not sooner. Key offensive players in place for years to come.My money is on #88.
Click to expand...
I don't have a problem with anything you said here. I think it needs to be noted that Crabtree is still learning mentally how to become a better WR, this is just his 4th year playing the position.
 
Better WR prospects than Bryant have flamed out.

Crabtree appeared to do everything wrong since he was drafted, holdout, all the diva talk, then came in and showed he is probably gonna be a stud. I'll take the guy that has shown he can probably be a stud WR, on a team that needs one, vs. the guy that has proven nothing, and is gonna have to fight for his targets. Normally I'd bump Crabtree down for the diva stuff, but Dez has his own issues, and aside from Fitz, they are pretty much all divas.

The QB thing is a big one to overcome, and makes me think, but Smith looks like he's good enough for Crabs and VD to get theirs.

Bryant's ceiling might be higher, but really, how much higher? And his floor is a LOT lower. He is NOT Megatron, he is not can't-miss.

 
Andy Herron said:
While the key word to the topic of this thread is "upside," as indicated by the quotations, a lot of these posts are reaching back to the past. I don't know about others, but I understand "upside" as "from here on out." From now moving forward. Years past, whether it be stats, awards, or who did what when is irrelavent. The etch-a-sketch has been shaken.Baggage, if there is any for either player, is checked at the door before they hit the field. In the end, these players will be measured by their performance and production on the field. So let's look at that.In order to achieve their greatest potential, a player first needs opportunity. The greater the opportunity, the greater the chance to achieve their full potential. The higher upside. For the sake of discussion, let's consider the two as equal components prior to taking the field. Component #15- playing with a franchise that is in a rebuilding mode to some degree with an unclear if not unsettled QB situation. Offense still searching for it's identity. A clear starter yet limited by a mediocre offense.Component #88- playing with a franchise that is now peeking as a perennial powerhouse offense led by an elite QB who is just now entering his prime years. A clear starter a year from now if not sooner. Key offensive players in place for years to come.My money is on #88.
Click to expand...
How are the 49er's in rebuilding mode? They improved their record each of the last two seasons and were 8-8 last year. Many people have them as the favorites to win their division this year with Warner's retirement. That's not rebuilding at all to me. I disagree about the QB situation as well- last year, everyone was going back and forth, who should start, etc. This year, it's very clear, Smith is the starter. It may not be as clear long term, that will depend on how Smith does this year, but there's no uncertaintly about the QB situation right now. Either Smith performs, which would be good for Crabtree, or they get another QB next offseason, which would also be good for Crabtree.Which is better, being the #1 WR on a mediocre offense, or being the #2 (maybe even #3) on a powerhouse? I'd say their opportunity is pretty equal, as well as their long term prospects.
 
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