Former Scout Says Alex Smith should not be the starter (1 Viewer)

Matt Maiocco, from CSNBayArea.com, reports ex-NFL Scout Dave Razzano is not - and has never been - a believer in QB Alex Smith. "I had him rated as a non-starting player," Razzano said of Smith, whom the 49ers selected with the top overall pick in the 2005 draft. However, he believes that second-year QB Nate Davis can be very successful in this league. "When I evaluated him, I thought he was the same guy as Mark Sanchez," Razzano said. "I thought they were very similar. But you have to put a guy on the field and let him play. There's a reason Ball State was, like, 12-1 or 13-1 for the first time ever. And now they're back to winning two games. That guy was a heck of a quarterback."

Davis was a player I was raving about last year leading up to the draft because I thought it was nuts his value was plummeting. Clearly another scout felt the same way despite the learning disability. This also highlights what I have been saying about the disconnect between some scouting departments and upper management. The former scout claims (and I believe him) he was asked to change his grade on Alex Smith to conform with other scouts on the team he was with.

Link

Matt Maiocco

CSNBayArea.com

The late Tony Razzano was the head of the 49ers scouting department and deserves as much -- if not, more -- historical accolades as Bill Walsh for the franchise's drafts that largely stocked the roster with players that won five Super Bowls.

His son, Dave, 50, spent his first season out of the game last year after more than two decades when the Arizona Cardinals let him go as a regional scout following the franchise's first Super Bowl.

Dave Razzano, who worked for the 49ers from 1988 to '92, has been with five teams that went to Super Bowls. Two of those Super Bowl teams had Joe Montana. Kurt Warner was the quarterback of the other three. Razzano has some strong opinions about the 49ers' current quarterback position.

He got fired after more than a decade as a Rams scout four years ago in large part because of his defense of a critical pre-draft evaluation of quarterback Alex Smith, Razzano told Comcast SportsNet.

"I had him rated as a non-starting player," Razzano said of Smith, whom the 49ers selected with the top overall pick in the 2005 draft.

Even as Smith enters his sixth professional season, 49ers followers are divided on Smith's ability to be a successful NFL quarterback. Smith has said he realizes he will not be able to win over all of his naysayers. And when it comes to those critics, Razzano is at the front of the line.

"I thought he was way over-drafted and way overrated," Razzano said. "I don't think I've been proven wrong. The guy hasn't done it, and he'll get another opportunity. He's getting a little better with the touchdown throws to Vernon Davis. But, boy, the guy I saw at Utah, I was shocked people had him rated that high."

Razzano said then-Rams general manager Charlie Armey asked him to change his grade on Smith to conform with the higher grades others in the Rams' draft room had assigned Smith. The scene escalated into an ugly shouting match. Razzano said he refused to alter his evaluation of Smith. It was the beginning of the end with the Rams for Razzano, he said. He was fired after the 2006 draft (Armey did not immediately respond to CSNBayArea.com's call.)

Razzano quickly landed with the Cardinals. Shortly after the Cardinals' appearance in the Super Bowl, Razzano's contract was not renewed after cuts to the team's scouting department, he said.

Having worked in the scouting departments for three NFC West franchises, Razzano pays close attention to the happenings within the division. He lives in Sacramento and remains intrigued by the 49ers' quarterback situation. He said he is a firm believer the 49ers are starting the wrong quarterback.

Smith got back on the field last season after missing most of 2007 and all of 2008 with shoulder injuries. He showed enough to head coach Mike Singletary and offensive coordinator Jimmy Raye to nail down the starting job. Smith completed 60.5 percent of his passes with 18 touchdowns and 12 interceptions. His 81.5 passer rating ranked 19th in the league. The 49ers were 5-5 in games Smith started.

Over the past several months, Smith drew lavish praise from his teammates and 49ers coaches for his offseason practice sessions and his leadership off the field. But Razzano remains skeptical. He said he does not believe the 49ers can win with Smith at quarterback.

"I think he's exactly what I thought he'd be -- maybe a little worse," Razzano said. "I thought he'd be a decent backup. But I watch him now, he just doesn't have the winning mentality. But he's a good kid and a smart kid and he probably looks good in practice. He misses simple 7-yard outs. He's just not accurate and he doesn't have the moxie."

One quarterback on the 49ers' roster Razzano said he believes can be a highly successful NFL player is Nate Davis, who entered the NFL draft following his junior season at Ball State. Razzano said he had Davis rated higher than Smith as an NFL prospect.

"When I evaluated him, I thought he was the same guy as Mark Sanchez," Razzano said. "I thought they were very similar. But you have to put a guy on the field and let him play. There's a reason Ball State was, like, 12-1 or 13-1 for the first time ever. And now they're back to winning two games. That guy was a heck of a quarterback.

"They might say, 'He doesn't learn this or that.' If they just handed him the keys, that's their answer. He'll make mistakes, but he won't make the same mistake twice. This kid made every throw imaginable. It wasn't a short-passing game (at Ball State). There would be guys in his face and he'd roll out, man, he hit guys on a 30-yard freakin' strike between defenders. The kid was unbelievable. I knew he'd fall (in the draft) because in the spring all that garbage comes in."

Davis tumbled down draft boards after he played his final game at Ball State, presumably because of a learning disability. The 49ers selected Davis late in the fifth round. He might get an opportunity this summer to compete with David Carr for the team's backup position, but he poses no immediate threat to Smith's status as the starter.

The Cardinals have won two consecutive NFC West titles. The 49ers, coming off an 8-8 record, are expected to seriously contend for the division title. In a survey of five preseason magazines, the 49ers were picked in each to win the division. But Razzano gives the slight nod to Arizona, he said.

"It's a two-horse race," Razzano said. "You just throw out Seattle and St. Louis. They are so far away, personnel-wise.

"It's really only two teams. Losing Warner, there are a lot of question marks for the Cardinals. You can pick one or the other, Cardinals or 49ers. (Cardinals quarterback Matt) Leinart is a big question mark. I know those coaches don't care for him. I was there. I know that for a fact. He just doesn't prepare.

"But Leinart, I feel, is better than Smith. In terms of that division, I still give the edge to the Cardinals. It'll be a dogfight. The 49ers will be what they are, 8-8, maybe 9-7 this year because of the division. But I don't see them being a legitimate playoff team because of Alex Smith."

Read more: Maiocco: Ex-NFL Scout Believes 49ers are Starting Wrong QB

Tune to SportsNet Central at 6, 10:30 and midnight on Comcast SportsNet Bay Area for more on this story

Hmmmm

(Cardinals quarterback Matt) Leinart is a big question mark. I know those coaches don't care for him. I was there. I know that for a fact. He just doesn't prepare.

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And he doesn't get half the criticism that Russell got.

One man's opinion.

I love this kid's talent but how's he doing preparing for games? Even in the pre-season it's not going to be whether he makes a nice pass or even has decent stats that will matter with Davis IMO, it's how well he understands the playbook and prepares for the opposing D. IIRC he's not the sharpest tool in the shed - and while he doesn't have to be Craig Krenzel, he needs to show field/football intelligence.

FUBAR said:

I love this kid's talent but how's he doing preparing for games? Even in the pre-season it's not going to be whether he makes a nice pass or even has decent stats that will matter with Davis IMO, it's how well he understands the playbook and prepares for the opposing D. IIRC he's not the sharpest tool in the shed - and while he doesn't have to be Craig Krenzel, he needs to show field/football intelligence.

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Alex Smith has always been thought of as extremely intelligent, so he actually probably is one of the sharpest tools in the NFL's shed.

FUBAR said:

I love this kid's talent but how's he doing preparing for games? Even in the pre-season it's not going to be whether he makes a nice pass or even has decent stats that will matter with Davis IMO, it's how well he understands the playbook and prepares for the opposing D. IIRC he's not the sharpest tool in the shed - and while he doesn't have to be Craig Krenzel, he needs to show field/football intelligence.

Click to expand...

This is where I believe most people miss the point. People with learning disabilities are frequently very gifted intellectually, but they just have difficulties learning in a prescribed way that our society has deemed most efficient to train little industrialists. The point the scout was making that I suggest looking at again is that this kid just needs to get on the field. He's a quick learner and he's better at learning by doing rather than doing stuff on a white board. Brett Favre is not the sharpest tool in the shed when it came to learning the playbook. He wasn't a student in the film room for quite some time. He was a learner by doing...His talent isn't just his physical skills - that's the point. It's how he handles himself in the huddle, in the pocket, and how he executes. Understandably, the question is whether he can learn from mistakes through practice reps so that he doesn't make the team suffer through a horrible season due to his mistakes in games. I believe, like Razzano said, that he won't make the same mistake twice - which should tell you that he's smart enough. Alex Smith is the example of being book smart and athletic, but so far he hasn't been football smart nor has he been able to execute football skills at his position at the highest level consistently. Davis isn't book-smart in terms of learning the traditional way. Thomas Edison, Alexander Graham Bell, Robin Williams, Beethoven, and Mozart were all purported to have learning disorders. Edison was kicked out of school at age 12 because he was "too dumb."

Maybe he's completely wrong about Smith and the S.F. QB lights it up this year and leads the league in both yards and passing TDs. Or maybe he's right about Smith and the guy never developes into even a mediocre starting QB. Either way, he evaluated the kid's performance and stats on his own and made his own call without being influenced by "group think". I respect his approach and would suggest that others who feel the same way may want to think about that before paying any website for fantasy advice and draft rankings. Just my

Smith may be a smart guy, but some of the decisions he made last year were really mind boggling. I was actually thinking the same exact thing when he made the throws ("Isn't he a real bright guy?")

I'm hopeful he can be a good caretaker (and there's very little doubt he is much much much more comfortable out of the gun), but I wouldn't be surprised in the QB of future is drafted early next year either. He looked remarkable in that comeback attempt (vs. Houston I believe)....all out of the gun.

I think we'll decisively see this year whether he is a starter in the league or not. He's on the hot seat there (IMO he's got to take that team to the playoffs this year w/o question). In his favor, he's got the same cast back for the first time & is fully healthy.

Matt Waldman said:

FUBAR said:

I love this kid's talent but how's he doing preparing for games? Even in the pre-season it's not going to be whether he makes a nice pass or even has decent stats that will matter with Davis IMO, it's how well he understands the playbook and prepares for the opposing D. IIRC he's not the sharpest tool in the shed - and while he doesn't have to be Craig Krenzel, he needs to show field/football intelligence.

Click to expand...

This is where I believe most people miss the point. People with learning disabilities are frequently very gifted intellectually, but they just have difficulties learning in a prescribed way that our society has deemed most efficient to train little industrialists. The point the scout was making that I suggest looking at again is that this kid just needs to get on the field. He's a quick learner and he's better at learning by doing rather than doing stuff on a white board.

Brett Favre is not the sharpest tool in the shed when it came to learning the playbook. He wasn't a student in the film room for quite some time. He was a learner by doing...

His talent isn't just his physical skills - that's the point. It's how he handles himself in the huddle, in the pocket, and how he executes.

Understandably, the question is whether he can learn from mistakes through practice reps so that he doesn't make the team suffer through a horrible season due to his mistakes in games. I believe, like Razzano said, that he won't make the same mistake twice - which should tell you that he's smart enough.

Alex Smith is the example of being book smart and athletic, but so far he hasn't been football smart nor has he been able to execute football skills at his position at the highest level consistently. Davis isn't book-smart in terms of learning the traditional way.

Thomas Edison, Alexander Graham Bell, Robin Williams, Beethoven, and Mozart were all purported to have learning disorders. Edison was kicked out of school at age 12 because he was "too dumb."

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I agree with the thoughts about learning disabilities. I read an article once on, Daniel Tammet, where he described the #37 as the 'ideal lumpy number. It's like porridge." This is the same guy that set the record for how many digits of Pi that he could recite. I often feel that the term learning disability is the best way to describe societies disability to teach and educate those who do not view the world that most individuals do.

Matt Waldman said:

FUBAR said:

I love this kid's talent but how's he doing preparing for games? Even in the pre-season it's not going to be whether he makes a nice pass or even has decent stats that will matter with Davis IMO, it's how well he understands the playbook and prepares for the opposing D. IIRC he's not the sharpest tool in the shed - and while he doesn't have to be Craig Krenzel, he needs to show field/football intelligence.

Click to expand...

This is where I believe most people miss the point. People with learning disabilities are frequently very gifted intellectually, but they just have difficulties learning in a prescribed way that our society has deemed most efficient to train little industrialists. The point the scout was making that I suggest looking at again is that this kid just needs to get on the field. He's a quick learner and he's better at learning by doing rather than doing stuff on a white board.

Brett Favre is not the sharpest tool in the shed when it came to learning the playbook. He wasn't a student in the film room for quite some time. He was a learner by doing...

His talent isn't just his physical skills - that's the point. It's how he handles himself in the huddle, in the pocket, and how he executes.

Understandably, the question is whether he can learn from mistakes through practice reps so that he doesn't make the team suffer through a horrible season due to his mistakes in games. I believe, like Razzano said, that he won't make the same mistake twice - which should tell you that he's smart enough.

Alex Smith is the example of being book smart and athletic, but so far he hasn't been football smart nor has he been able to execute football skills at his position at the highest level consistently. Davis isn't book-smart in terms of learning the traditional way.

Thomas Edison, Alexander Graham Bell, Robin Williams, Beethoven, and Mozart were all purported to have learning disorders. Edison was kicked out of school at age 12 because he was "too dumb."

Click to expand...

Fair point on Favre, although at least later in his career he seems to have understood the playbook (although his strength is ad-libbing) but my last comment indicates we don't completely disagree here. Your comment about handling himself in the huddle, in the pocket and executing means about the same as I do when I say field intelligence. Maybe poise is the better word, but you surely can't deny that a QB has to make good decisions on the field no matter his physical skill set. That's field intelligence. Take VY - while at Texas the guy seemed to make the right decision very often, in Nashville it's been less so and he's struggled because of it. But when he does make good decisions, the guy is virtually unstoppable (see Arizona game). I don't know if Davis will ever be that good, but time will tell. My comment about being sharp may be incorrect, I've forgotten the details just that he has a hard time in college, if that's just a learning disability I don't mean to insult the young man, just my faulty memory.

Matt Waldman said:

Matt Maiocco, from CSNBayArea.com, reports ex-NFL Scout Dave Razzano is not - and has never been - a believer in QB Alex Smith. "I had him rated as a non-starting player," Razzano said of Smith, whom the 49ers selected with the top overall pick in the 2005 draft. However, he believes that second-year QB Nate Davis can be very successful in this league. "When I evaluated him, I thought he was the same guy as Mark Sanchez," Razzano said. "I thought they were very similar. But you have to put a guy on the field and let him play. There's a reason Ball State was, like, 12-1 or 13-1 for the first time ever. And now they're back to winning two games. That guy was a heck of a quarterback."

Davis was a player I was raving about last year leading up to the draft because I thought it was nuts his value was plummeting. Clearly another scout felt the same way despite the learning disability. This also highlights what I have been saying about the disconnect between some scouting departments and upper management. The former scout claims (and I believe him) he was asked to change his grade on Alex Smith to conform with other scouts on the team he was with.

Link

Matt Maiocco

CSNBayArea.com

The late Tony Razzano was the head of the 49ers scouting department and deserves as much -- if not, more -- historical accolades as Bill Walsh for the franchise's drafts that largely stocked the roster with players that won five Super Bowls.

His son, Dave, 50, spent his first season out of the game last year after more than two decades when the Arizona Cardinals let him go as a regional scout following the franchise's first Super Bowl.

Dave Razzano, who worked for the 49ers from 1988 to '92, has been with five teams that went to Super Bowls. Two of those Super Bowl teams had Joe Montana. Kurt Warner was the quarterback of the other three. Razzano has some strong opinions about the 49ers' current quarterback position.

He got fired after more than a decade as a Rams scout four years ago in large part because of his defense of a critical pre-draft evaluation of quarterback Alex Smith, Razzano told Comcast SportsNet.

"I had him rated as a non-starting player," Razzano said of Smith, whom the 49ers selected with the top overall pick in the 2005 draft.

Even as Smith enters his sixth professional season, 49ers followers are divided on Smith's ability to be a successful NFL quarterback. Smith has said he realizes he will not be able to win over all of his naysayers. And when it comes to those critics, Razzano is at the front of the line.

"I thought he was way over-drafted and way overrated," Razzano said. "I don't think I've been proven wrong. The guy hasn't done it, and he'll get another opportunity. He's getting a little better with the touchdown throws to Vernon Davis. But, boy, the guy I saw at Utah, I was shocked people had him rated that high."

Razzano said then-Rams general manager Charlie Armey asked him to change his grade on Smith to conform with the higher grades others in the Rams' draft room had assigned Smith. The scene escalated into an ugly shouting match. Razzano said he refused to alter his evaluation of Smith. It was the beginning of the end with the Rams for Razzano, he said. He was fired after the 2006 draft (Armey did not immediately respond to CSNBayArea.com's call.)

Razzano quickly landed with the Cardinals. Shortly after the Cardinals' appearance in the Super Bowl, Razzano's contract was not renewed after cuts to the team's scouting department, he said.

Having worked in the scouting departments for three NFC West franchises, Razzano pays close attention to the happenings within the division. He lives in Sacramento and remains intrigued by the 49ers' quarterback situation. He said he is a firm believer the 49ers are starting the wrong quarterback.

Smith got back on the field last season after missing most of 2007 and all of 2008 with shoulder injuries. He showed enough to head coach Mike Singletary and offensive coordinator Jimmy Raye to nail down the starting job. Smith completed 60.5 percent of his passes with 18 touchdowns and 12 interceptions. His 81.5 passer rating ranked 19th in the league. The 49ers were 5-5 in games Smith started.

Over the past several months, Smith drew lavish praise from his teammates and 49ers coaches for his offseason practice sessions and his leadership off the field. But Razzano remains skeptical. He said he does not believe the 49ers can win with Smith at quarterback.

"I think he's exactly what I thought he'd be -- maybe a little worse," Razzano said. "I thought he'd be a decent backup. But I watch him now, he just doesn't have the winning mentality. But he's a good kid and a smart kid and he probably looks good in practice. He misses simple 7-yard outs. He's just not accurate and he doesn't have the moxie."

One quarterback on the 49ers' roster Razzano said he believes can be a highly successful NFL player is Nate Davis, who entered the NFL draft following his junior season at Ball State. Razzano said he had Davis rated higher than Smith as an NFL prospect.

"When I evaluated him, I thought he was the same guy as Mark Sanchez," Razzano said. "I thought they were very similar. But you have to put a guy on the field and let him play. There's a reason Ball State was, like, 12-1 or 13-1 for the first time ever. And now they're back to winning two games. That guy was a heck of a quarterback.

"They might say, 'He doesn't learn this or that.' If they just handed him the keys, that's their answer. He'll make mistakes, but he won't make the same mistake twice. This kid made every throw imaginable. It wasn't a short-passing game (at Ball State). There would be guys in his face and he'd roll out, man, he hit guys on a 30-yard freakin' strike between defenders. The kid was unbelievable. I knew he'd fall (in the draft) because in the spring all that garbage comes in."

Davis tumbled down draft boards after he played his final game at Ball State, presumably because of a learning disability. The 49ers selected Davis late in the fifth round. He might get an opportunity this summer to compete with David Carr for the team's backup position, but he poses no immediate threat to Smith's status as the starter.

The Cardinals have won two consecutive NFC West titles. The 49ers, coming off an 8-8 record, are expected to seriously contend for the division title. In a survey of five preseason magazines, the 49ers were picked in each to win the division. But Razzano gives the slight nod to Arizona, he said.

"It's a two-horse race," Razzano said. "You just throw out Seattle and St. Louis. They are so far away, personnel-wise.

"It's really only two teams. Losing Warner, there are a lot of question marks for the Cardinals. You can pick one or the other, Cardinals or 49ers. (Cardinals quarterback Matt) Leinart is a big question mark. I know those coaches don't care for him. I was there. I know that for a fact. He just doesn't prepare.

"But Leinart, I feel, is better than Smith. In terms of that division, I still give the edge to the Cardinals. It'll be a dogfight. The 49ers will be what they are, 8-8, maybe 9-7 this year because of the division. But I don't see them being a legitimate playoff team because of Alex Smith."

Read more: Maiocco: Ex-NFL Scout Believes 49ers are Starting Wrong QB

Tune to SportsNet Central at 6, 10:30 and midnight on Comcast SportsNet Bay Area for more on this story

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Another scout implies a first scout had this opinion. I only see one scout. Writing for a website that caters to people who enjoy magic football does not make you a scout.

HTH.

I've liked Nate Davis as well. I'd say if Smith falters and the 49ers come out of the gate like 2-5, Nate might get his shot. But that team is built on running and playing defense and that could really disguise a lot of Smith's shortcomings.

What about being a magic football scout? That sounds even more awesome!

FUBAR said:

Matt Waldman said:

FUBAR said:

I love this kid's talent but how's he doing preparing for games? Even in the pre-season it's not going to be whether he makes a nice pass or even has decent stats that will matter with Davis IMO, it's how well he understands the playbook and prepares for the opposing D. IIRC he's not the sharpest tool in the shed - and while he doesn't have to be Craig Krenzel, he needs to show field/football intelligence.

Click to expand...

This is where I believe most people miss the point. People with learning disabilities are frequently very gifted intellectually, but they just have difficulties learning in a prescribed way that our society has deemed most efficient to train little industrialists. The point the scout was making that I suggest looking at again is that this kid just needs to get on the field. He's a quick learner and he's better at learning by doing rather than doing stuff on a white board.

Brett Favre is not the sharpest tool in the shed when it came to learning the playbook. He wasn't a student in the film room for quite some time. He was a learner by doing...

His talent isn't just his physical skills - that's the point. It's how he handles himself in the huddle, in the pocket, and how he executes.

Understandably, the question is whether he can learn from mistakes through practice reps so that he doesn't make the team suffer through a horrible season due to his mistakes in games. I believe, like Razzano said, that he won't make the same mistake twice - which should tell you that he's smart enough.

Alex Smith is the example of being book smart and athletic, but so far he hasn't been football smart nor has he been able to execute football skills at his position at the highest level consistently. Davis isn't book-smart in terms of learning the traditional way.

Thomas Edison, Alexander Graham Bell, Robin Williams, Beethoven, and Mozart were all purported to have learning disorders. Edison was kicked out of school at age 12 because he was "too dumb."

Click to expand...

Fair point on Favre, although at least later in his career he seems to have understood the playbook (although his strength is ad-libbing) but my last comment indicates we don't completely disagree here. Your comment about handling himself in the huddle, in the pocket and executing means about the same as I do when I say field intelligence. Maybe poise is the better word, but you surely can't deny that a QB has to make good decisions on the field no matter his physical skill set. That's field intelligence. Take VY - while at Texas the guy seemed to make the right decision very often, in Nashville it's been less so and he's struggled because of it. But when he does make good decisions, the guy is virtually unstoppable (see Arizona game). I don't know if Davis will ever be that good, but time will tell. My comment about being sharp may be incorrect, I've forgotten the details just that he has a hard time in college, if that's just a learning disability I don't mean to insult the young man, just my faulty memory.

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I don't think you did. I think it's just a common perception people have. And it's very possible that the way the coaches will try to develop Davis might not work for the young man or the team and it could turn out that no team will be willing to alter it's approach for just one guy - especially if that approach is extremely different than the norm. It just seems to me that this scout is pointing out that this won't be the case.

FUBAR said:

I love this kid's talent but how's he doing preparing for games? Even in the pre-season it's not going to be whether he makes a nice pass or even has decent stats that will matter with Davis IMO, it's how well he understands the playbook and prepares for the opposing D. IIRC he's not the sharpest tool in the shed - and while he doesn't have to be Craig Krenzel, he needs to show field/football intelligence.

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Sounds like a great Dynasty pickup for you...

FORMER scout.

BroncoFreak_2K3 said:

FUBAR said:

I love this kid's talent but how's he doing preparing for games? Even in the pre-season it's not going to be whether he makes a nice pass or even has decent stats that will matter with Davis IMO, it's how well he understands the playbook and prepares for the opposing D. IIRC he's not the sharpest tool in the shed - and while he doesn't have to be Craig Krenzel, he needs to show field/football intelligence.

Click to expand...

Sounds like a great Dynasty pickup for you...

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perhaps I have him in 2 leagues already, feel free to bid him up.

T-shirt Ninja said:

Matt Waldman said:

Matt Maiocco, from CSNBayArea.com, reports ex-NFL Scout Dave Razzano is not - and has never been - a believer in QB Alex Smith. "I had him rated as a non-starting player," Razzano said of Smith, whom the 49ers selected with the top overall pick in the 2005 draft. However, he believes that second-year QB Nate Davis can be very successful in this league. "When I evaluated him, I thought he was the same guy as Mark Sanchez," Razzano said. "I thought they were very similar. But you have to put a guy on the field and let him play. There's a reason Ball State was, like, 12-1 or 13-1 for the first time ever. And now they're back to winning two games. That guy was a heck of a quarterback."

Davis was a player I was raving about last year leading up to the draft because I thought it was nuts his value was plummeting. Clearly another scout felt the same way despite the learning disability. This also highlights what I have been saying about the disconnect between some scouting departments and upper management. The former scout claims (and I believe him) he was asked to change his grade on Alex Smith to conform with other scouts on the team he was with.

Link

Click to expand...

Another scout implies a first scout had this opinion. I only see one scout. Writing for a website that caters to people who enjoy magic football does not make you a scout.

HTH.

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Yes, very helpful

Dave Razzano, who worked for the 49ers from 1988 to '92, has been with five teams that went to Super Bowls. Two of those Super Bowl teams had Joe Montana. Kurt Warner was the quarterback of the other three. Razzano has some strong opinions about the 49ers' current quarterback position.

He got fired after more than a decade as a Rams scout four years ago in large part because of his defense of a critical pre-draft evaluation of quarterback Alex Smith, Razzano told Comcast SportsNet.

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This guy says Dave Razzano has an axe to grind when it comes to Alex Smith.Dave Razzano thinks the Redskins will challenge for the NFC East title this year.

I don't know about Alex Smith, but I think it's nuts to say the Redskins have a chance of winning the NFC East this year.

Mr. Retukes said:

FORMER scout.

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right....what's your point? Daniel Jeremiah was a former scout until a few months ago.

Link

Russ Lande another former scout, who gave high pre-draft grades to Marc Bulger and Tom Brady, feels the same about Davis.

If you read even a little bit about the nature of the NFL, you would learn that "former scout" doesn't mean "bad scout."

fatness said:

Dave Razzano, who worked for the 49ers from 1988 to '92, has been with five teams that went to Super Bowls. Two of those Super Bowl teams had Joe Montana. Kurt Warner was the quarterback of the other three. Razzano has some strong opinions about the 49ers' current quarterback position.

He got fired after more than a decade as a Rams scout four years ago in large part because of his defense of a critical pre-draft evaluation of quarterback Alex Smith, Razzano told Comcast SportsNet.

Click to expand...

This guy says Dave Razzano has an axe to grind when it comes to Alex Smith.Dave Razzano thinks the Redskins will challenge for the NFC East title this year.

I don't know about Alex Smith, but I think it's nuts to say the Redskins have a chance of winning the NFC East this year.

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After reading that author's article, I think that writer has a problem with Razzano picking on Smith. The only evidence offered that Razzano had an axe to grind was in his own admission nitpicking in quality. He did nothing to prove that Razzano has an agenda here. The things this writer stated in his support of Smith were things Razzano was quoted as saying positive about the QB.

Matt Waldman said:

Link

Russ Lande another former scout, who gave high pre-draft grades to Marc Bulger and Tom Brady, feels the same about Davis.

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Davis may be talented but he's nowhere near being ready to start an NFL game, much less for a team that is otherwise (on paper at least) playoff ready. Maiocco himself has said that Davis is a long term project.

thecatch said:

Matt Waldman said:

Link

Russ Lande another former scout, who gave high pre-draft grades to Marc Bulger and Tom Brady, feels the same about Davis.

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Davis may be talented but he's nowhere near being ready to start an NFL game, much less for a team that is otherwise (on paper at least) playoff ready. Maiocco himself has said that Davis is a long term project.

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The point is about talent and how a team manages it. Maiocco is a writer I respect, but he's more of a journalist than an analyst. Maiocco is frequently echoing the thoughts of what the Niners say. He's also watching a player that gets limited reps because he's the No.3 guy. When you're not the No.1 QB, your time and opportunity to practically apply your skills in organized practices against a defense are limited. The point Razzano makes is also about the learning process.

You can go to music school and learn about theory, technique, and history without ever becoming a good musician. You can spend that same amount of time practicing and performing learn little about history and the written side of theory and become a great musician. You can go to school and learn about accounting, economics, finance, and management but not know a thing about conducting business successfully. At the same time you can be a high school drop out and go straight to work and become far more useful.

Our society makes the point that having the piece of paper is a sign of fundamental proficiency in a subject, but this status doesn't guarantee excellence.

I believe Razzano's contention is that if Davis had more reps against a defense his game would accelerate at a faster rate than what Smith has or will do with his reps despite the fact that Davis might be slow to learn things on paper.

Matt Waldman said:

I believe Razzano's contention is that if Davis had more reps against a defense his game would accelerate at a faster rate than what Smith has or will do with his reps despite the fact that Davis might be slow to learn things on paper.

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That may or may not be true, but his contention that SF should just throw Davis out there right now in the starting lineup is not so reasonable. Davis had more practice reps as a DB than QB last year. No NFL franchise is going to start a late round pick at QB who has shown nothing in practice, particularly one with playoff aspirations.Maiocco may be echoing what the organization says, but the organization has had a much closer look at Davis than any scout has at this point. And the organization's sentiments are in-line with what the beat writers observed in the mini-camps, in which Davis was far from impressive.

Matt Waldman said:

I believe Razzano's contention is that if Davis had more reps against a defense his game would accelerate at a faster rate than what Smith has or will do with his reps despite the fact that Davis might be slow to learn things on paper.

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I don't doubt this, but the 49ers are not in a position to let Davis learn on the job. Whether or not they are actually are, the organization has to believe they are in a championship window. I think the signing of David Carr blocks Davis even if Smith falls flat on his face, and I would expect a Smith crash-and-burn would trigger another veteran caretaker QB signing to try to let the defense/running game to carry them in 2011. Davis may end up being one of the best QBs of his class, but I dont think we'll know for at least 2-3 years.

Sigmund Bloom said:

Matt Waldman said:

I believe Razzano's contention is that if Davis had more reps against a defense his game would accelerate at a faster rate than what Smith has or will do with his reps despite the fact that Davis might be slow to learn things on paper.

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I don't doubt this, but the 49ers are not in a position to let Davis learn on the job. Whether or not they are actually are, the organization has to believe they are in a championship window. I think the signing of David Carr blocks Davis even if Smith falls flat on his face, and I would expect a Smith crash-and-burn would trigger another veteran caretaker QB signing to try to let the defense/running game to carry them in 2011. Davis may end up being one of the best QBs of his class, but I dont think we'll know for at least 2-3 years.

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And I definitely agree. Please don't take my commentary as Davis should play right now in today's NFL. The 49ers have invested so much time in Smith that they have to see it through because the team has improved around him enough for them to challenge in the division. I just think Davis dropped in the draft for the wrong reasons and he represents some of the flaws of the system.

thecatch said:

Matt Waldman said:

I believe Razzano's contention is that if Davis had more reps against a defense his game would accelerate at a faster rate than what Smith has or will do with his reps despite the fact that Davis might be slow to learn things on paper.

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That may or may not be true, but his contention that SF should just throw Davis out there right now in the starting lineup is not so reasonable. Davis had more practice reps as a DB than QB last year. No NFL franchise is going to start a late round pick at QB who has shown nothing in practice, particularly one with playoff aspirations.Maiocco may be echoing what the organization says, but the organization has had a much closer look at Davis than any scout has at this point. And the organization's sentiments are in-line with what the beat writers observed in the mini-camps, in which Davis was far from impressive.

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And I agree with you. However, if Smith and Davis were both 2nd year players, I would say it's worth throwing Davis out there and giving him a chance to learn on the job. The whole story presents a dilemma I think is worth pointing out. If you have a player with excellent athletic and natural passing skills that learns very well on the job but he is slow in the classroom and a player that is good in class but slow to assimilate on the field, which do you choose? I would prefer the player that has better skills on the field that might learn on the job.My concern for the 49ers is that they invest way too much time in the wrong player and not enough in the right one to the detriment of both players and the team because they were too rigid in their thinking and process. This becomes a broader question about how the league develops quarterbacks because they could be missing out on special players due a worn-out method of teaching. And let's be real. The 49ers could win the division, but it's a weak division. If this is their championship window, then that window is open about two inches and it won't budge due to a ton of dried paint. The 49ers are like the Titans of the NFC. They are a tough team to play, but they need more than the few special players they have to elevate this squad beyond a first-round playoff win. Quarterback needs to be one of them and I while I understand why the team feels Smith deserves another year to see what he can do with his weapons, I think if they keep him as their starter for the next 3-4 seasons, they are wasting a better opportunity with Davis. Smith better elevate his game quickly because David Carr has proven that when the real hitting begins that he's a different player than he was in practice. I just find it an intriguing story because I watched enough of Davis to know that as a pure passer, he was on par with the three top prospects in his draft class and at times better. As an improviser he might have been the best.

Has Davis been working on technique? Does he still throw the ball without using the laces? Early reports last year were that he wouldn't listen to or take instruction from the coaches, thus slowing his progress. He may be an on the field doer, but if he's not doing what the coaches are telling him to do in practice, then he'll never get a shot. Some may be a learning disability, other parts may be a hard headedness that only hurts his own chances. Not many bosses endorse the worker that doesn't do as they are shown.

Riffraff said:

Has Davis been working on technique? Does he still throw the ball without using the laces? Early reports last year were that he wouldn't listen to or take instruction from the coaches, thus slowing his progress. He may be an on the field doer, but if he's not doing what the coaches are telling him to do in practice, then he'll never get a shot. Some may be a learning disability, other parts may be a hard headedness that only hurts his own chances. Not many bosses endorse the worker that doesn't do as they are shown.

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While I agree with your overall point about listening to your bosses when they ask you to do something, there are exceptions where the issue may be more of a request than a demand. I think how Davis holds the ball is probably one of them, because the team is still telling the media that they would like him to become the No.2 QB over Carr. This tells you that despite the fact that they would like his progress to be faster than it has been when it comes to what they have seen from him in practice, he still shows them enough to warrant this expectation (at least from what I have read). Davis has always thrown the ball extremely well in the manner that he holds it. This was something former NFL QB and NFL QB coach Steve DeBerg, who worked with Davis prior to the draft, didn't change with Davis.

This is another interesting story on Davis from a year ago. There's a point made in it about straight-A students having difficulty picking up pro offenses. So at this point, I think the learning disability is probably overblown. The kid's in his second year and he's still slow in grasping the offense. I think there have been a fair share of quality starters in this league that experienced the same issue. I wouldn't doubt it if some of them had learning disabilities, but it wasn't made as public.

Link

BTW-I just enjoy the exercise of debating this stuff. It helps me learn more about the player in question. So thanks all for the solid points...

Niners are playing to win the division this year anything less is a failure. Alex Smith is the man from game one and will be all year long. No way they throw in anyone with any less experience. If you can grab Smith as your QB2 there is a huge upside in my opinion. Better taking Smith then Gerrard, Young, or Palmer. QB2 could be huge this year with guys like Flacco, Stafford, Smith, Henne, Leinart, or even Freeman - These guys all have potential to break out and be stars. Where as with Gerrard, Young, and Palmer you know what you get and they are just a back up filler player. Say you wait to draft your QB and grab Cutler, or McNabb, Favre, Ryan - you just make sure you have one of these other QB2's that has a huge upside.

How is Davis going to deal with the reality of changing OC's and offensive systems in the NFL?

One of the main excuses used on Smith's behalf is that he had like 4 different systems to learn in 4 years and that hampered his development. If the 49ers feel that due to Davis learning disability that he needs several years to watch and learn, how on earth would he deal with changing OC's and systems each year?

rumblinbumblinstumbler said:

How is Davis going to deal with the reality of changing OC's and offensive systems in the NFL?One of the main excuses used on Smith's behalf is that he had like 4 different systems to learn in 4 years and that hampered his development. If the 49ers feel that due to Davis learning disability that he needs several years to watch and learn, how on earth would he deal with changing OC's and systems each year?

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I think the change in systems is one factor out of many that the Niners use for Smith. There is a good bit of spin doctoring (which every NFL team does) going on with Smith after Mike Nolan was let go and Mike Singletary came in. Smith's excuses have been injury-related, a coach that didn't like him, new offenses, young receivers, etc. In fact they aren't really excuses. Any quarterback would have been challenged with this obstacles. Put Matt Ryan in San Francisco without Crabtree and Davis to begin his career and he doesn't look like he did in Atlanta. So I think the "if Smith can't, then how will Davis" line of thinking is still hung up on the learning disability. Right now, Smith is healthy and has two years with the same coordinator. He has two quality young receivers on the rise and a tight end that is finally maximizing his potential. If he doesn't become at least a 3500-yard passer with 20 scores, or the team can't win behind a strong ground game because Smith doesn't bail them out when needed, I think you'll see the real issue - he simply can't execute consistently enough to win - no matter how smart he is, how good his talent is, or how consistent he looks in practice. There are lots of examples in the history of the NFL where some of its big stars are horrible practice players. I'm not trying to say that practice doesn't mean anything. I'm just saying that excellence often defies convention. I think Davis has shown enough on the field to be that kind of player. I remember watching Bruce Gradkowski as a rookie look very good in the preseason. It wasn't the numbers, although those were good. Numbers doesn't mean much int he preseason. It was his poise and decision-making. Yes, he made mistakes in the regular season, but they were mistakes where the defense forced him to attempt plays beyond his athletic ability. Nate Davis had similar poise to Gradkowski in the preseason last year, however his ability to make those plays with his arm while on the move is greater than Gradkowski. The Raiders' likely backup is a Dave Krieg-like player - savvy and tough - a good leader with limitations. Davis has the physical skills, arm, and poise to become a very strong improviser when necessary. I'm looking forward to seeing him perform in the next few years.

I noticed that Davis was waived yesterday and it reminded me of this thread. Just another example of meaningless preseason hyperbole, I guess.

i have seen davis do some really stupid things on a football field. I seriously question whether or not he'll ever "get" it. Raw talent aint shat without instinct.

Many people did not like Benson last year because of his previous efforts. Many people do not like BMW this year because they have been burned in the past. The ancient Eastern philosopher Great White once said, "Once biten, twice shy babe".

Nate Davis returns to 49ers on practice squad

The San Francisco 49ers bounced Nate Davis(notes) on Monday to make room for another quarterback, Troy Smith(notes), who they signed to a one-year contract.

Davis returned today as the Niners signed the former Ball State star to the team's practice squad.

It was an interesting move because 49ers coach Mike Singletary has been openly critical of Davis. The belief is he has upside but he needs to mature and become more professional. In the meantime, Smith provides the team with a better insurance policy this season.

San Francisco released Jarrett Brown(notes), the former West Virginia quarterback from its practice squad to clear room for Davis

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=nfp-..._practice_squad

In a league desperate for QB prospects, nobody put in a claim for Davis. You have to factor that in. He's always had potential, but his learning disability is real. It presents problems. Couple that with rumors of him being somewhat uncoachable...& there you have it.

I wouldn't bury him, but Davis won't have forever to show something. He'll only have so long before he's cut (if he doesn't improve).

Matt Waldman said:

"I think he's exactly what I thought he'd be -- maybe a little worse," Razzano said. "I thought he'd be a decent backup. But I watch him now, he just doesn't have the winning mentality. But he's a good kid and a smart kid and he probably looks good in practice. He misses simple 7-yard outs. He's just not accurate and he doesn't have the moxie."

"When I evaluated him, I thought he was the same guy as Mark Sanchez," Razzano said. "I thought they were very similar. But you have to put a guy on the field and let him play. There's a reason Ball State was, like, 12-1 or 13-1 for the first time ever. And now they're back to winning two games. That guy was a heck of a quarterback.

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Ummm, Smith was 21-1 at Utah.

Hank Mardukas said:

Matt Waldman said:

"I think he's exactly what I thought he'd be -- maybe a little worse," Razzano said. "I thought he'd be a decent backup. But I watch him now, he just doesn't have the winning mentality. But he's a good kid and a smart kid and he probably looks good in practice. He misses simple 7-yard outs. He's just not accurate and he doesn't have the moxie."

"When I evaluated him, I thought he was the same guy as Mark Sanchez," Razzano said. "I thought they were very similar. But you have to put a guy on the field and let him play. There's a reason Ball State was, like, 12-1 or 13-1 for the first time ever. And now they're back to winning two games. That guy was a heck of a quarterback.

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Ummm, Smith was 21-1 at Utah.

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Mark Sanchez? The Jets barely sneaked into the playoffs thanks to some "nothing to play for" opponents laying down for them late last year. They had the best running game and best defense in the NFL and made a nice playoff run. However, the Jets would have done what they did last year with any semi-competent qb. While people are justifiably optimistic about Sanchez' future, he is still very much an unproven at this point. Razzano references Sanchez as though Sanchez is a proven success. He may get there, but we don't know, yet. FTR, most people felt Alex Smith was progressing nicely after his 2nd season. It wasn't until Jim Hostler took over as offensive coordinator following Norv Turner being hired by the Chargers that the wheels fell off for Smith, Nolan, and the 49ers offense in general. Jim Hostler is now a largely irrelevant WR coach for Baltimore. I'd be very surprised if he ever gets a 2nd chance as a coordinator. In any case, this is definitely a make or break year for Alex Smith. After what amounted to 2 lost years due to incompetent coaching (Hostler), injury, and desperation (Martz/JT Osullivan) he finally got his starting job back and did show some progress last year. This year, the OLine is better, the receiving talent is better, there is continuity in the coaching/offensive system, and he is healthy......excuses are no longer valid.

ex-NFL Scout Dave Razzano

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Now we know why. While alex smith hasnt done much he's a lot better then Nate Davis will ever be.Ooops, just read he died, so that explains the ex-scout. Point still remqins nate davis is a bum.

I know this was an old story, but I'm not really sure where the scout is coming from. Most definitely, Davis has all the measurables you look for. He's big, has a cannon for an arm, and he moves well. Ryan Leaf had a stronger arm and was more athletic than Peyton Manning. There's lots more to it than physical ability. Davis was a late round pick for a reason. There were questions about the level of competition he faced, his work ethic, his fundamentals/mechanics, his ability to pick up an NFL playbook, concern over the learning disability, etc. Not saying he should or shouldn't be given a shot, but apparently he has not done the things in the offseason/practice/film room that engender increased support and confidence from coaches.

Not sure Davis is the answer but Smith definitely isn't.

Davis is so bad they cut him knowing no one would want him and then signed him to the PS. They need a QB.