Vote for Pro Football Hall of Fame Inductees (1 Viewer)

Jerome Bettis, RB

Played for 13 seasons, made 6 Pro Bowls, named 1st team All-Pro twice,

Appeared in 1 Super Bowl, and won 1 (XL),

Won Rookie-of-the-Year, Comeback-Player-of-the-Year, and NFL Man-of-the-Year awards.

Ranks 5th All-time in Rushing Yards (13,662)

Ranks 10th All-time in Rushing Touchdowns (91)

Ranks 18th All-time in Yards from Scrimmage (15,111)

Tim Brown, WR

Played for 17 seasons, made 9 Pro Bowls, but never a 1st team All-Pro,

Appeared in 1 Super Bowl but didn't win,

Led the NFL 1 year in receptions, 1 year in Kickoff Return Yards and Yards per Kickoff Return, 1 year in Punt Return Yards.

Ranks 4th All-time in Receptions (1,094)

Ranks 4th All-time in Receiving Yards (14,934)

Ranks 6th All-time in Receiving Touchdowns (100)

Ranks 17th All-time in Yards from Scrimmage (15,124)

Ranks 5th All-time in All-Purpose Yards (19,679)

Cris Carter, WR

Played for 16 seasons, made 8 Pro Bowls, named 1st team All-Pro twice,

Never appeared in a Super Bowl,

Won NFL Man-of-the-Year award, led the NFL 1 year in receptions, and 3 years in receiving touchdowns.

Ranks 3rd All-time in Receptions (1,101)

Ranks 8th All-time in Receiving Yards (13,899)

Ranks 4th All-time in Receiving Touchdowns (130)

Ranks 26th All-time in Yards from Scrimmage (13,940)

Ranks 36th All-time in All-Purpose Yards (14,184)

Dermontti Dawson, OC

Played for 13 seasons, made 7 Pro Bowls, named 1st team All-Pro 6 times,

Appeared in 1 Super Bowl but didn't win.

Richard Dent, DE

Played for 15 seasons, made 4 Pro Bowls, named 1st team All-Pro 1 time,

Appeared in and won 1 Super Bowl (XX),

Was Super Bowl XX Most Valuable Player,

Led the NFL 1 year in sacks.

Ranks 6th All-time in Sacks (137.5)

Chris Doleman, DE

Played for 15 seasons, made 8 Pro Bowls, named 1st team All-Pro 2 times,

Never appeared in a Super Bowl,

Led the NFL 1 year in sacks.

Ranks 4th All-time in Sacks (150.5)

Marshall Faulk, RB

Played for 12 seasons, made 7 Pro Bowls, named 1st team All-Pro 3 times,

Appeared in 2 Super Bowls and won 1 (Super Bowl XXXIV),

Won NFL Rookie-of-the-Year, Offensive Player-of-the-Year 3 times, NFL PFWA Most Valuable Player 2 times, NFL AP Most Valuable Player 1 time, and NFL Bert Bell Award 1 time,

Led the NFL 1 year in rushing touchdowns, 3 years in rushing yards per attempt, 1 year in rushing yards per game, 2 years in total touchdowns and points scored, 2 years in yards from scrimmage, and 1 year in all-purpose yards.

Ranks 10th All-time in Rushing Yards (12,279)

Ranks 7th All-time in Rushing Touchdowns (100)

Ranks 7th All-time in Touchdowns (136)

Ranks 4th All-time in Yards from Scrimmage (19,154)

Ranks 6th All-time in All-Purpose Yards (19,172)

Charles Haley, DE

Played for 13 seasons, made 5 Pro Bowls, named 1st team All-Pro 2 times,

Appeared in 5 Super Bowls, winning all 5 (XXIII, XXIV, XXVII, XXVIII, & XXX).

Ranks 23rd All-time in Sacks (100.5)

Cortez Kennedy, DT

Played for 11 seasons, made 8 Pro Bowls, named 1st team All-Pro 3 times,

Never appeared in a Super Bowl,

Won NFL Defensive Player-of-the-Year 1 time.

Ranks 97th All-time in Sacks (58)

Curtis Martin, RB

Played in 11 seasons, made 5 Pro Bowls, named 1st team All-Pro 1 time,

Appeared in 1 Super Bowl but didn't win,

Won NFL Offensive Rookie-of-the-Year,

Led NFL 1 year in rushing yards, 1 year in rushing attempts.

Ranks 4th All-time in Rushing Yards (14,101)

Ranks 12th All-time in Rushing Touchdowns (90)

Ranks 19th All-time in Total Touchdowns (100)

Ranks 8th All-time in Yards from Scrimmage (17,430)

Ranks 11th All-time in All-Purpose Yards (17,430)

Andre Reed, WR

Played in 16 seasons, made 7 Pro Bowls, never named All-Pro,

Appeared in 4 Super Bowls but never won.

Ranks 10th All-time in Receptions (951)

Ranks 11th All-time in Receiving Yards (13,198)

Ranks 12th All-time in Receiving Touchdowns (87)

Ranks 28th All-time in Yards from Scrimmage (13,698)

Ranks 41st All-time in All-Purpose Yards (13,710)

Willie Roaf, OT

Played in 13 seasons, made 11 Pro Bowls, named 1st team All-Pro 3 times,

Never appeared in a Super Bowl.

Ed Sabol, founder of NFL Films

Won 53 Emmys, revolutionized the way in which sports are presented.

"I never remember my father having a head," said his son, Steve, now head of NFL Films, "instead there was always a camera in front of his face."

Deion Sanders, CB / KR

Played in 13 seasons, made 8 Pro Bowls, named 1st team All-Pro 6 times,

Appeared in 2 Super Bowls and won both (XXIX & XXX),

Won Defensive Player-of-the-Year award,

Led the NFL 3 times in non-offensive touchdowns, 1 time in kickoff return yards, and 1 time in interception return yards.

Ranks 1st All-time in Non-Offensive Touchdowns (19)

Ranks 8th All-time in Punt Return Touchdowns (6)

Ranks 23rd All-time in Interceptions (53)

Ranks 4th All-time in Interception Return Yards (1,331)

Ranks 4th All-time in Interception Return Touchowns (9)

Shannon Sharpe, TE

Played in 14 seasons, made 8 Pro Bowls, named 1st team All-Pro 4 times,

Appeared in 3 Super Bowls and won all 3 (XXXII, XXXIII, & XXXV).

Ranks 21st All-time in Receptions [2nd amongst TEs] (815)

Ranks 34th All-time in Receiving Yards [2nd amongst TEs] (10,060)

Ranks 58th All-time in Receiving Touchdowns [3rd amongst TEs] (62)

_______________________

Chris Hanburger, LB

Played in 14 seasons, made 9 Pro Bowls, named 1st team All-Pro 4 times,

Appeared in 1 Super Bowl but didn't win.

Ranks 8th All-time in Fumble Return Touchdowns (3)

Les Richter, LB / K

Played in 9 seasons, made 8 Pro Bowls, named 1st team All-Pro 1 time,

Appeared in 1 NFL Championship game but didn't win (1955).

Bettis won the Superbowl

faulk

dawson

deion

dent in next year

stop. the rest can go to the hall of pretty good

I honestly think every one of the modern players is deserving. Dent, Haley, and Reed would probably be my bottom 3 and all three have a very strong case.

Sheriff66 said:

Bettis won the Superbowl

Click to expand...

Oops. I'll fix that.

Wow. No love for Sabol. I guess it's because a lot of the posters here are young, but in the age of pre-internet, pre-cable, NFL Film highlights were a must fo watch your favorite teams.

5Rings said:

faulk

dawson

deion

dent in next year

stop. the rest can go to the hall of pretty good

Click to expand...

Chris CarterPlayed for 18 seasons, made 8 Pro Bowls, named 1st team All-Pro twice,

Never appeared in a Super Bowl,

Won NFL Man-of-the-Year award, led the NFL 1 year in receptions, and 3 years in receiving touchdowns.

Ranks 3rd All-time in Receptions (1,101)

Ranks 8th All-time in Receiving Yards (13,899)

Ranks 4th All-time in Receiving Touchdowns (130)

Ranks 26th All-time in Yards from Scrimmage (13,940)

Ranks 36th All-time in All-Purpose Yards (14,184)

Does that mean all future WR's that dont rank in the top 10 in all three of the most important stats for a WR dont get in?

3rd all-time receptions

4th in TDs

He has TWICE as many TD's as Micheal Irvin, 2000 more yrds.

My opinion is he's a lock with those stats, especially when compared to recent HOF inductees at his position.

Only 28/32 voted for Faulk? Please, the 4 of you, raise your hands so that we can all laugh at you in unison.

mcjc4 said:

5Rings said:

faulk

dawson

deion

dent in next year

stop. the rest can go to the hall of pretty good

Click to expand...

Chris CarterPlayed for 18 seasons, made 8 Pro Bowls, named 1st team All-Pro twice,

Never appeared in a Super Bowl,

Won NFL Man-of-the-Year award, led the NFL 1 year in receptions, and 3 years in receiving touchdowns.

Ranks 3rd All-time in Receptions (1,101)

Ranks 8th All-time in Receiving Yards (13,899)

Ranks 4th All-time in Receiving Touchdowns (130)

Ranks 26th All-time in Yards from Scrimmage (13,940)

Ranks 36th All-time in All-Purpose Yards (14,184)

Does that mean all future WR's that dont rank in the top 10 in all three of the most important stats for a WR dont get in?

3rd all-time receptions

4th in TDs

He has TWICE as many TD's as Micheal Irvin, 2000 more yrds.

My opinion is he's a lock with those stats, especially when compared to recent HOF inductees at his position.

Click to expand...

You copied and pasted from the OP, but went out of your way to spell Cris Carter's name incorrectly?Also, it's not just about stats. The reason why Irvin is in is because he won Super Bowls. That goes a long way in HOF voting.

Finally, you can compare Carter to Irvin and other HOF WRs all you want, but you also have to compare him to non-WRs that are part of this class. Chris Doleman ranks 4th all-time in sacks. Is that comparable to Carter's ranking 3rd in receptions and 4th in TDs? What about Roaf's 11 Pro Bowls? What about Dawson's 6 All-Pro awards? Those are both among the highest numbers for any position ever. How do they compare against Carter?

There have been a number of threads on this year's HOF finalists and many times "lock" has been attributed to some of them.

As an FYI, many of the candidates have been passed over already, so IMO that somewhat removes the lock monicker for them. They may get in at some point, but they at least had to wait at some point . . .

NUMBER OF TIMES ELIGIBLE AND NOT INDUCTED:

Brown 1

Carter 3

Sharpe 4

Dawson 5

Kennedy 5

Reed 5

Doleman 7

Dent 8

Haley 9

Sabol 10 (I am guessing he has the same waiting period and eligibility as players but I could be wrong.)

Faulk and Sanders should be no-brain first balloters, and Sharpe, Dawson and Carter should have all made it by now, so those five got my votes.

Orange Crush said:

mcjc4 said:

5Rings said:

faulk

dawson

deion

dent in next year

stop. the rest can go to the hall of pretty good

Click to expand...

Chris CarterPlayed for 18 seasons, made 8 Pro Bowls, named 1st team All-Pro twice,

Never appeared in a Super Bowl,

Won NFL Man-of-the-Year award, led the NFL 1 year in receptions, and 3 years in receiving touchdowns.

Ranks 3rd All-time in Receptions (1,101)

Ranks 8th All-time in Receiving Yards (13,899)

Ranks 4th All-time in Receiving Touchdowns (130)

Ranks 26th All-time in Yards from Scrimmage (13,940)

Ranks 36th All-time in All-Purpose Yards (14,184)

Does that mean all future WR's that dont rank in the top 10 in all three of the most important stats for a WR dont get in?

3rd all-time receptions

4th in TDs

He has TWICE as many TD's as Micheal Irvin, 2000 more yrds.

My opinion is he's a lock with those stats, especially when compared to recent HOF inductees at his position.

Click to expand...

You copied and pasted from the OP, but went out of your way to spell Cris Carter's name incorrectly?Also, it's not just about stats. The reason why Irvin is in is because he won Super Bowls. That goes a long way in HOF voting.

Finally, you can compare Carter to Irvin and other HOF WRs all you want, but you also have to compare him to non-WRs that are part of this class. Chris Doleman ranks 4th all-time in sacks. Is that comparable to Carter's ranking 3rd in receptions and 4th in TDs? What about Roaf's 11 Pro Bowls? What about Dawson's 6 All-Pro awards? Those are both among the highest numbers for any position ever. How do they compare against Carter?

Click to expand...

Sorry about the spelling error. That part did not paste, so i typed it in without looking closely, I will pay better attention next time.I believe Roaf should be in as well, i think he is probably a top 5 guy at his position. Chris Doleman was a great pass rusher. Was he a great D-line man? Very good, not a run stuffing guy for sure.

I agree,Superbowl wins do play a part in the voting. But a player who is statistically one of greatest at his poistion should be in. I don't think it hurt Barry Sanders or Dan Fouts and I don't think for a second Walter Payton is left out if the Bears lose the 85 Superbowl. Both Favre and Manning are probably 1st ballot guys, yes they both have won a Superebowl, but I think they both get in regardless.

Ghost Rider said:

Faulk and Sanders should be no-brain first balloters, and Sharpe, Dawson and Carter should have all made it by now, so those five got my votes.

Click to expand...

mcjc4 said:

Orange Crush said:

Finally, you can compare Carter to Irvin and other HOF WRs all you want, but you also have to compare him to non-WRs that are part of this class. Chris Doleman ranks 4th all-time in sacks. Is that comparable to Carter's ranking 3rd in receptions and 4th in TDs? What about Roaf's 11 Pro Bowls? What about Dawson's 6 All-Pro awards? Those are both among the highest numbers for any position ever. How do they compare against Carter?

Click to expand...

Sorry about the spelling error. That part did not paste, so i typed it in without looking closely, I will pay better attention next time.I believe Roaf should be in as well, i think he is probably a top 5 guy at his position. Chris Doleman was a great pass rusher. Was he a great D-line man? Very good, not a run stuffing guy for sure.I agree,Superbowl wins do play a part in the voting. But a player who is statistically one of greatest at his poistion should be in. I don't think it hurt Barry Sanders or Dan Fouts and I don't think for a second Walter Payton is left out if the Bears lose the 85 Superbowl. Both Favre and Manning are probably 1st ballot guys, yes they both have won a Superebowl, but I think they both get in regardless.

Click to expand...

All good points.I think it's especially difficult now to compare the current crop of finalists against players already in the HOF. It's just become so much more competitive to make it in. Sometimes I think the Hall should make a 1-year exception to vote in about 20 guys at once. Look at Shannon Sharpe for example. When he retired, he held the all-time marks in receptions, yards, and touchdowns at his position, and he'd won 3 Super Bowls. If he'd have been a QB with that resume, that's a first ballot HOFer. But instead he hasn't made it for 4 years. During that time another TE (Gonzales) has blown past all of Sharpe's career stat totals, and others appear on a path to do so as well (Gates, Witten, Clark, etc.). The idea that Dermontti Dawson, possibly the best center to ever play the game, isn't already in the Hall boggles the mind. But so too does the idea of Chris Doleman, the 4th all-time sack leader, not being in. That creates logjams at certain positions. If Doleman isn't good enough to get in, then is Michael Strahan (ranks 5th)? Is Jason Taylor (ranks 8th)?When the Hall went from 1 Senior candidate to 2 a couple years back, it was done because of the impression that there were too many guys who fell through the cracks as modern candidates and should have gotten in earlier. Ha! They haven't seen nothing yet. I'd chuck the two senior spots out and take 7 modern candidates instead.

Orange Crush said:

All good points.I think it's especially difficult now to compare the current crop of finalists against players already in the HOF. It's just become so much more competitive to make it in. Sometimes I think the Hall should make a 1-year exception to vote in about 20 guys at once. Look at Shannon Sharpe for example. When he retired, he held the all-time marks in receptions, yards, and touchdowns at his position, and he'd won 3 Super Bowls. If he'd have been a QB with that resume, that's a first ballot HOFer. But instead he hasn't made it for 4 years. During that time another TE (Gonzales) has blown past all of Sharpe's career stat totals, and others appear on a path to do so as well (Gates, Witten, Clark, etc.). The idea that Dermontti Dawson, possibly the best center to ever play the game, isn't already in the Hall boggles the mind. But so too does the idea of Chris Doleman, the 4th all-time sack leader, not being in. That creates logjams at certain positions. If Doleman isn't good enough to get in, then is Michael Strahan (ranks 5th)? Is Jason Taylor (ranks 8th)?When the Hall went from 1 Senior candidate to 2 a couple years back, it was done because of the impression that there were too many guys who fell through the cracks as modern candidates and should have gotten in earlier. Ha! They haven't seen nothing yet. I'd chuck the two senior spots out and take 7 modern candidates instead.

Click to expand...

I think part of the issue is the huge increase in teams and players that play these days. IIRC, the original 1963 HOF class elected 17 players, coaches, owners, and the like. There were 22 teams. Now there are 32 teams.While I can't prove it, I suspect that "back in the day" there were a lot of players who may not have been football players all year long. I remember hearing stories about guys that played during the season but had other jobs "back home." I also think that there were a lot of guys that had very short careers and faded into obscurity.Since then, football has become a multi-billion dollar business. I would guess rosters have been expanded, hardly anyone has other jobs if they are in the NFL (if any), and with advances in fitness and science a lot of players can far outclass the careers of players from nearly 50 years ago.Blend that all together and it does appear that there are more potential candidates from the modern era than from years ago. I'm sure some of that is perception more than reality, but it does appear that there is a glut of potential HOF candidates and not enough votes to go around to get them all in.

David Yudkin said:

NUMBER OF TIMES ELIGIBLE AND NOT INDUCTED:

Sabol 10 (I am guessing he has the same waiting period and eligibility as players but I could be wrong.)

Click to expand...

Link

There is no mandatory retirement period for a contributor.

Click to expand...

I guess, technically, Sabol has been eligible since he first contributed something to the NFL.

You're right, David. When you look at the OP, there are 15 guys on that list. That's 3 years worth of full classes without even factoring in players who will become eligible in the next 3 years, and there's not one guy on that list that clearly doesn't belong. Not one guy whose selection would make me think : "Huh? _____________ (Player X)? Really?"

Orange Crush said:

mcjc4 said:

Orange Crush said:

Finally, you can compare Carter to Irvin and other HOF WRs all you want, but you also have to compare him to non-WRs that are part of this class. Chris Doleman ranks 4th all-time in sacks. Is that comparable to Carter's ranking 3rd in receptions and 4th in TDs? What about Roaf's 11 Pro Bowls? What about Dawson's 6 All-Pro awards? Those are both among the highest numbers for any position ever. How do they compare against Carter?

Click to expand...

Sorry about the spelling error. That part did not paste, so i typed it in without looking closely, I will pay better attention next time.I believe Roaf should be in as well, i think he is probably a top 5 guy at his position. Chris Doleman was a great pass rusher. Was he a great D-line man? Very good, not a run stuffing guy for sure.I agree,Superbowl wins do play a part in the voting. But a player who is statistically one of greatest at his poistion should be in. I don't think it hurt Barry Sanders or Dan Fouts and I don't think for a second Walter Payton is left out if the Bears lose the 85 Superbowl. Both Favre and Manning are probably 1st ballot guys, yes they both have won a Superebowl, but I think they both get in regardless.

Click to expand...

All good points.I think it's especially difficult now to compare the current crop of finalists against players already in the HOF. It's just become so much more competitive to make it in. Sometimes I think the Hall should make a 1-year exception to vote in about 20 guys at once. Look at Shannon Sharpe for example. When he retired, he held the all-time marks in receptions, yards, and touchdowns at his position, and he'd won 3 Super Bowls. If he'd have been a QB with that resume, that's a first ballot HOFer. But instead he hasn't made it for 4 years. During that time another TE (Gonzales) has blown past all of Sharpe's career stat totals, and others appear on a path to do so as well (Gates, Witten, Clark, etc.). The idea that Dermontti Dawson, possibly the best center to ever play the game, isn't already in the Hall boggles the mind. But so too does the idea of Chris Doleman, the 4th all-time sack leader, not being in. That creates logjams at certain positions. If Doleman isn't good enough to get in, then is Michael Strahan (ranks 5th)? Is Jason Taylor (ranks 8th)?When the Hall went from 1 Senior candidate to 2 a couple years back, it was done because of the impression that there were too many guys who fell through the cracks as modern candidates and should have gotten in earlier. Ha! They haven't seen nothing yet. I'd chuck the two senior spots out and take 7 modern candidates instead.

Click to expand...

I agree with just about everything you said. There is a glut and a one year excpeption to get them in would be fine by me. People wouldn't like it though because there would be more complaints of watering down the HOF or Hall of Very Good, and there isn't enough time for that many speeches during the ceremony. So 7 modern candidates each year would be a good start. Keep the Senior possibilities as long as they don't just automatically vote both Senior nominees in every year. I also think people like Sabol should be able to go to the HOF but not count against the limit on the number of yearly entries.

N Zone said:

Orange Crush said:

I think it's especially difficult now to compare the current crop of finalists against players already in the HOF. It's just become so much more competitive to make it in. Sometimes I think the Hall should make a 1-year exception to vote in about 20 guys at once. Look at Shannon Sharpe for example. When he retired, he held the all-time marks in receptions, yards, and touchdowns at his position, and he'd won 3 Super Bowls. If he'd have been a QB with that resume, that's a first ballot HOFer. But instead he hasn't made it for 4 years. During that time another TE (Gonzales) has blown past all of Sharpe's career stat totals, and others appear on a path to do so as well (Gates, Witten, Clark, etc.). The idea that Dermontti Dawson, possibly the best center to ever play the game, isn't already in the Hall boggles the mind. But so too does the idea of Chris Doleman, the 4th all-time sack leader, not being in. That creates logjams at certain positions. If Doleman isn't good enough to get in, then is Michael Strahan (ranks 5th)? Is Jason Taylor (ranks 8th)?When the Hall went from 1 Senior candidate to 2 a couple years back, it was done because of the impression that there were too many guys who fell through the cracks as modern candidates and should have gotten in earlier. Ha! They haven't seen nothing yet. I'd chuck the two senior spots out and take 7 modern candidates instead.

Click to expand...

I agree with just about everything you said. There is a glut and a one year excpeption to get them in would be fine by me. People wouldn't like it though because there would be more complaints of watering down the HOF or Hall of Very Good, and there isn't enough time for that many speeches during the ceremony. So 7 modern candidates each year would be a good start. Keep the Senior possibilities as long as they don't just automatically vote both Senior nominees in every year. I also think people like Sabol should be able to go to the HOF but not count against the limit on the number of yearly entries.

Click to expand...

On the plus side, I don't think there's a single "first ballot" Hall of Famer for next year. The most decorated is going to be offensive guard Will Shields (12 Pro Bowls, 2 All-Pros). He should be a finalist, but not an automatic in. So a bunch of the guys who just miss the cut this year will have a really good shot next year.

mcjc4 said:

Orange Crush said:

mcjc4 said:

5Rings said:

faulk

dawson

deion

dent in next year

stop. the rest can go to the hall of pretty good

Click to expand...

Chris CarterPlayed for 18 seasons, made 8 Pro Bowls, named 1st team All-Pro twice,

Never appeared in a Super Bowl,

Won NFL Man-of-the-Year award, led the NFL 1 year in receptions, and 3 years in receiving touchdowns.

Ranks 3rd All-time in Receptions (1,101)

Ranks 8th All-time in Receiving Yards (13,899)

Ranks 4th All-time in Receiving Touchdowns (130)

Ranks 26th All-time in Yards from Scrimmage (13,940)

Ranks 36th All-time in All-Purpose Yards (14,184)

Does that mean all future WR's that dont rank in the top 10 in all three of the most important stats for a WR dont get in?

3rd all-time receptions

4th in TDs

He has TWICE as many TD's as Micheal Irvin, 2000 more yrds.

My opinion is he's a lock with those stats, especially when compared to recent HOF inductees at his position.

Click to expand...

You copied and pasted from the OP, but went out of your way to spell Cris Carter's name incorrectly?Also, it's not just about stats. The reason why Irvin is in is because he won Super Bowls. That goes a long way in HOF voting.

Finally, you can compare Carter to Irvin and other HOF WRs all you want, but you also have to compare him to non-WRs that are part of this class. Chris Doleman ranks 4th all-time in sacks. Is that comparable to Carter's ranking 3rd in receptions and 4th in TDs? What about Roaf's 11 Pro Bowls? What about Dawson's 6 All-Pro awards? Those are both among the highest numbers for any position ever. How do they compare against Carter?

Click to expand...

Sorry about the spelling error. That part did not paste, so i typed it in without looking closely, I will pay better attention next time.I believe Roaf should be in as well, i think he is probably a top 5 guy at his position. Chris Doleman was a great pass rusher. Was he a great D-line man? Very good, not a run stuffing guy for sure.

I agree,Superbowl wins do play a part in the voting. But a player who is statistically one of greatest at his poistion should be in.

Click to expand...

But he really isn't. You sight recpetions, receiving yards and receving TDs as big indicators of his "dominance" - but the actual numbers show he was, what most would call, a compiler. In 18 seasons, do you now how many times he lead the league in receptions? Once. Even for a compiler and a posession-type WR, he has only had 100+ receptions twice in his career. Even a guy like Herman Moore has 2-100 reception seasons.

He lead the league in receiving TDs 3 times in 18 years. (Mark Clayton did it twice and came in 2nd to Rice in '91 - so it's nice, but not indicative of HOF caliber)

Do you know hoe many times he lead the league in receiving yards?? Nonce. Not a single time. In fact he never even was higher than 7th in the league.

Sorry, but Carter belongs in the Hall of the Very Good - but not the HOF. He was a very good WR, but not dominant at his position. There were seasons where he wasn't even the best WR on his own team.

Orange Crush said:

Chris Doleman ranks 4th all-time in sacks. Is that comparable to Carter's ranking 3rd in receptions and 4th in TDs? What about Roaf's 11 Pro Bowls? What about Dawson's 6 All-Pro awards? Those are both among the highest numbers for any position ever. How do they compare against Carter?

Click to expand...

Keep in mind that there are at least a couple of guys (e.g., Deacon Jones) who played before sacks were officially tracked that had more than Doleman, so he really isn't 4th, though he is certainly up there.

mcjc4 said:

I believe Roaf should be in as well, i think he is probably a top 5 guy at his position.

Click to expand...

If you are saying you think Roaf is among the top 5 offensive tackles of all time, I have to disagree. Off the top of my head, I think these guys were all probably better (in no particular order):MunozMixGreggParkerYaryShellRoosevelt BrownOgdenAnd I assume I'm missing some others.

I would vote no on practically everybody on this list.

Faulk should be in first ballot. Deion should get in. I'd even put Shannon Sharpe in eventually. Ed Sabol, absolutely. But, the rest of these guys...Carter, Brown, Haley, Doleman? No. We've let way too many really good players get confused with all-time greats. It dilutes the product.

DoubleG said:

mcjc4 said:

Orange Crush said:

mcjc4 said:

5Rings said:

faulk

dawson

deion

dent in next year

stop. the rest can go to the hall of pretty good

Click to expand...

Chris CarterPlayed for 18 seasons, made 8 Pro Bowls, named 1st team All-Pro twice,

Never appeared in a Super Bowl,

Won NFL Man-of-the-Year award, led the NFL 1 year in receptions, and 3 years in receiving touchdowns.

Ranks 3rd All-time in Receptions (1,101)

Ranks 8th All-time in Receiving Yards (13,899)

Ranks 4th All-time in Receiving Touchdowns (130)

Ranks 26th All-time in Yards from Scrimmage (13,940)

Ranks 36th All-time in All-Purpose Yards (14,184)

Does that mean all future WR's that dont rank in the top 10 in all three of the most important stats for a WR dont get in?

3rd all-time receptions

4th in TDs

He has TWICE as many TD's as Micheal Irvin, 2000 more yrds.

My opinion is he's a lock with those stats, especially when compared to recent HOF inductees at his position.

Click to expand...

You copied and pasted from the OP, but went out of your way to spell Cris Carter's name incorrectly?Also, it's not just about stats. The reason why Irvin is in is because he won Super Bowls. That goes a long way in HOF voting.

Finally, you can compare Carter to Irvin and other HOF WRs all you want, but you also have to compare him to non-WRs that are part of this class. Chris Doleman ranks 4th all-time in sacks. Is that comparable to Carter's ranking 3rd in receptions and 4th in TDs? What about Roaf's 11 Pro Bowls? What about Dawson's 6 All-Pro awards? Those are both among the highest numbers for any position ever. How do they compare against Carter?

Click to expand...

Sorry about the spelling error. That part did not paste, so i typed it in without looking closely, I will pay better attention next time.I believe Roaf should be in as well, i think he is probably a top 5 guy at his position. Chris Doleman was a great pass rusher. Was he a great D-line man? Very good, not a run stuffing guy for sure.

I agree,Superbowl wins do play a part in the voting. But a player who is statistically one of greatest at his poistion should be in.

Click to expand...

But he really isn't. You sight recpetions, receiving yards and receving TDs as big indicators of his "dominance" - but the actual numbers show he was, what most would call, a compiler. In 18 seasons, do you now how many times he lead the league in receptions? Once. Even for a compiler and a posession-type WR, he has only had 100+ receptions twice in his career. Even a guy like Herman Moore has 2-100 reception seasons.

He lead the league in receiving TDs 3 times in 18 years. (Mark Clayton did it twice and came in 2nd to Rice in '91 - so it's nice, but not indicative of HOF caliber)

Do you know hoe many times he lead the league in receiving yards?? Nonce. Not a single time. In fact he never even was higher than 7th in the league.

Sorry, but Carter belongs in the Hall of the Very Good - but not the HOF. He was a very good WR, but not dominant at his position. There were seasons where he wasn't even the best WR on his own team.

Click to expand...

The 100 reception thing doesn't matter. It's an arbitrary number, and I would guess there are a lot more WRs in the HOF that haven't done it than have. So he has ONLY done it twice? Come on. Some years he wasn't even the best WR on his own team, this is true. but it's a little disingenuous when the other guy is a Hall of Famer as well.I hate making the argument that, 'Well, if So-and-So is in, then this guy should be in...." Having said that, If Irvin is in, then Carter is a no-brainer. And Irvin doesn't get in, and Carter shut out, just because Irvin was lucky enough to play for the Cowboys.

At some point you stop looking at stats, and start looking at everything else, Pro Bowls, Super Bowls, All-Pro, etc. And just like Hines Ward's blocking will be considered, everything else Cris Carter brought should be considered as well. The leadership, big catches, etc.

There are just some guys that, as their careers wind down, you watch them and think, there's a future Hall of Famer. That's what most people thought at the end of Carter's career, I think.

massraider said:

There are just some guys that, as their careers wind down, you watch them and think, there's a future Hall of Famer. That's what most people thought at the end of Carter's career, I think.

Click to expand...

Really? Meh.

13/67 voted for Willie Roaf.

13 of 67. Really?

The bulk of the participants in this thread ought to just leave quietly and never, I mean never take part in a HOF discussion again.

13 out of 67? Embarrassing.

Chest Rockwell said:

13/67 voted for Willie Roaf. 13 of 67. Really? The bulk of the participants in this thread ought to just leave quietly and never, I mean never take part in a HOF discussion again. 13 out of 67? Embarrassing.

Click to expand...

He isn't more deserving than Faulk, Sanders, or Dawson, period. And that only leaves two more spots. IMO he isn't one of the next two most deserving, though that is where it gets more debatable. I think he should and will get inducted in a future class. But to suggest that anyone not voting for him is way off base just shows that you are way off base.

Chest Rockwell said:

13/67 voted for Willie Roaf. 13 of 67. Really? The bulk of the participants in this thread ought to just leave quietly and never, I mean never take part in a HOF discussion again. 13 out of 67? Embarrassing.

Click to expand...

He's very deserving, but I think he was 6th on my list. You can only vote for 5. I think if it was a Willie Roaf yes or no question, that percentage would be much, much higher.

wow...when I think of a HOF'er.....Tim Brown isn't the first name that comes to mind, but boy he has put up some pretty impressive all-time numbers....

Tim Brown, WR

Played for 17 seasons, made 9 Pro Bowls, but never a 1st team All-Pro,

Appeared in 1 Super Bowl but didn't win,

Led the NFL 1 year in receptions, 1 year in Kickoff Return Yards and Yards per Kickoff Return, 1 year in Punt Return Yards.

Ranks 4th All-time in Receptions (1,094)

Ranks 4th All-time in Receiving Yards (14,934)

Ranks 6th All-time in Receiving Touchdowns (100)

Ranks 17th All-time in Yards from Scrimmage (15,124)

Ranks 5th All-time in All-Purpose Yards (19,679)

Just Win Baby said:

Chest Rockwell said:

13/67 voted for Willie Roaf. 13 of 67. Really? The bulk of the participants in this thread ought to just leave quietly and never, I mean never take part in a HOF discussion again. 13 out of 67? Embarrassing.

Click to expand...

He isn't more deserving than Faulk, Sanders, or Dawson, period. And that only leaves two more spots. IMO he isn't one of the next two most deserving, though that is where it gets more debatable. I think he should and will get inducted in a future class. But to suggest that anyone not voting for him is way off base just shows that you are way off base.

Click to expand...

IMO it's a toss up between Roaf and Faulk. Faulk leading this just reminds me that this is a FF site. Great player but to have more than twice the # Dawson has? If we could only vote for one, Dawson would have my vote.

Charles Haley and Ray Guy need to be in there.

FUBAR said:

IMO it's a toss up between Roaf and Faulk. Faulk leading this just reminds me that this is a FF site. Great player but to have more than twice the # Dawson has? If we could only vote for one, Dawson would have my vote.

Click to expand...

Faulk is a multi-league MVP award winner. No other finalists won it even once.

Faulk, Deion, Roaf, Dawson...

and Sabol.

In that order. Or Shannon for #5. Couldn't decide.

cr8f said:

Charles Haley and Ray Guy need to be in there.

Click to expand...

Charles Haley? Ray Guy? I think he's tough because he's so iconic to the position. He ranked in the top-3 in YPP eight years out of his career. A great punter, no doubt. On the other hand, he's 69th overall in YPP. And, that list isn't populated just by 2000-2010 guys. Many of his contemporaries were better. He earned 3 All Pro nods, but even that feels like too few to make an exception for a punter. I'd say no on Guy, but wouldn't be too put out, if he got in at some point.

Sabol contributed to the game more than any other name on that list. Absolutely no reason why he shouldn't be there. Sabol helped create and perpetuate the mystique that is the NFL history.

cobalt_27 said:

cr8f said:

Charles Haley and Ray Guy need to be in there.

Click to expand...

Charles Haley? Ray Guy? I think he's tough because he's so iconic to the position. He ranked in the top-3 in YPP eight years out of his career. A great punter, no doubt. On the other hand, he's 69th overall in YPP. And, that list isn't populated just by 2000-2010 guys. Many of his contemporaries were better. He earned 3 All Pro nods, but even that feels like too few to make an exception for a punter. I'd say no on Guy, but wouldn't be too put out, if he got in at some point.

Click to expand...

I'd take Roby over Guy. Roby had style. He understood a punter wasn't a real football player. That's why he played with a wristwatch on.

Just Win Baby said:

Chest Rockwell said:

13/67 voted for Willie Roaf.

13 of 67. Really?

The bulk of the participants in this thread ought to just leave quietly and never, I mean never take part in a HOF discussion again.

13 out of 67? Embarrassing.

Click to expand...

He isn't more deserving than Faulk, Sanders, or Dawson, period. And that only leaves two more spots. IMO he isn't one of the next two most deserving, though that is where it gets more debatable. I think he should and will get inducted in a future class. But to suggest that anyone not voting for him is way off base just shows that you are way off base.

Click to expand...

OK. However, he certainly isn't less deserving.

1. Faulk, Sanders, and Dawson each made one NFL All-Decade team. Roaf made two. And, he made the 2000's squad despite retiring after the '05 season. How many players made an All-Decade squad even though they only participated in half the number of applicable seasons? No clue here, but I can't imagine it's more than a handful...if any.

Advantage: Roaf

2. Roaf made the Pro Bowl 11 times and a 9 time All-Pro (6 1st team selections). Faulk was a 7 time Pro Bowl selection and 6 time All-Pro (3 1st team selections). Sanders is credited w/8 Pro Bowls and 8 All-Pro selections (6 time 1st teamer). Dawson made 7 Pro Bowls and was named an All-Pro 6 times (all 1st teamers). It's close, but math is math and more is better.

Advantage: Roaf

3. Roaf was a 1st team All-Pro and Pro Bowl selection the last season he played in the NFL. Dawson was two years removed from any official accreditation for exceptional performance. Faulk and Sanders were unquestionably shells of their former selves by the time they walked away from the game. Roaf dominated until his final snap.

Advantage: Roaf

Orange Crush said:

FUBAR said:

IMO it's a toss up between Roaf and Faulk. Faulk leading this just reminds me that this is a FF site. Great player but to have more than twice the # Dawson has? If we could only vote for one, Dawson would have my vote.

Click to expand...

Faulk is a multi-league MVP award winner. No other finalists won it even once.

Click to expand...

So you're saying, Mark Mosely >>>>>>>the field?Seriously, how many WR's, OL's, and defenders have won the award?

Orange Crush said:

FUBAR said:

IMO it's a toss up between Roaf and Faulk. Faulk leading this just reminds me that this is a FF site. Great player but to have more than twice the # Dawson has? If we could only vote for one, Dawson would have my vote.

Click to expand...

Faulk is a multi-league MVP award winner. No other finalists won it even once.

Click to expand...

multi-league?He had a dominant 4 year period, otherwise he was pretty good to average. He deserves to get in, but Dawson was the top guy at his position longer.

Chris Carter: 130 TDs from "All he does is score TD's Carter." Best possession Wr of all time

Marshall Faulk: Perhaps the best all around HB (running/receiving) of all time.

Doleman: He has far more sacks than any of the other guys; fourth all time.

Shannon Sharpe: Second best receiving TE in NFL history.

Grateful Parrot said:

Wow. No love for Sabol. I guess it's because a lot of the posters here are young, but in the age of pre-internet, pre-cable, NFL Film highlights were a must fo watch your favorite teams.

Click to expand...

You're going to put in a movie producer over ANY of these great players? No way. That's wrong. I watched the highlight films, and they were fine, but HOF worthy? People must be nuts.

sharpe is known as a receiving TE, but he also blocked for TD's 2000 yeard season and was a key blocker for Jamal Lewis as well. he should get more credit for his blocing.

Evilgrin 72 said:

Chest Rockwell said:

13/67 voted for Willie Roaf. 13 of 67. Really? The bulk of the participants in this thread ought to just leave quietly and never, I mean never take part in a HOF discussion again. 13 out of 67? Embarrassing.

Click to expand...

He's very deserving, but I think he was 6th on my list. You can only vote for 5. I think if it was a Willie Roaf yes or no question, that percentage would be much, much higher.

Click to expand...

DeionFaulk CarterSabol Were all very easy fo me, The last spot is a coin flip between Roaf and Sharpe.That said I wouldn't be shocked to see Dawson ride in on the Steelers coat tails the way Rickey Jackson did last year.As for the overwhelming majority of you that voted no to the 2 Veterans committe canidates, try reading or doing a little research before you vote no because you haven't heard of someone.

az_prof said:

Grateful Parrot said:

Wow. No love for Sabol. I guess it's because a lot of the posters here are young, but in the age of pre-internet, pre-cable, NFL Film highlights were a must fo watch your favorite teams.

Click to expand...

You're going to put in a movie producer over ANY of these great players? No way. That's wrong. I watched the highlight films, and they were fine, but HOF worthy? People must be nuts.

Click to expand...

No movie producers, no founding fathers, no coaches, no GMs, no one who hasn't been on my fantasy teams. The NFL isn't the NFL as you know it without Ed Sabol. Have a little since of history of the game. Before Manning the way Unitas. Before the Sunday ticket there was NFL Films and Ed Sabol.

Chest Rockwell said:

Just Win Baby said:

Chest Rockwell said:

13/67 voted for Willie Roaf.

13 of 67. Really?

The bulk of the participants in this thread ought to just leave quietly and never, I mean never take part in a HOF discussion again.

13 out of 67? Embarrassing.

Click to expand...

He isn't more deserving than Faulk, Sanders, or Dawson, period. And that only leaves two more spots. IMO he isn't one of the next two most deserving, though that is where it gets more debatable. I think he should and will get inducted in a future class. But to suggest that anyone not voting for him is way off base just shows that you are way off base.

Click to expand...

OK. However, he certainly isn't less deserving.

1. Faulk, Sanders, and Dawson each made one NFL All-Decade team. Roaf made two. And, he made the 2000's squad despite retiring after the '05 season. How many players made an All-Decade squad even though they only participated in half the number of applicable seasons? No clue here, but I can't imagine it's more than a handful...if any.

Advantage: Roaf

2. Roaf made the Pro Bowl 11 times and a 9 time All-Pro (6 1st team selections). Faulk was a 7 time Pro Bowl selection and 6 time All-Pro (3 1st team selections). Sanders is credited w/8 Pro Bowls and 8 All-Pro selections (6 time 1st teamer). Dawson made 7 Pro Bowls and was named an All-Pro 6 times (all 1st teamers). It's close, but math is math and more is better.

Advantage: Roaf

3. Roaf was a 1st team All-Pro and Pro Bowl selection the last season he played in the NFL. Dawson was two years removed from any official accreditation for exceptional performance. Faulk and Sanders were unquestionably shells of their former selves by the time they walked away from the game. Roaf dominated until his final snap.

Advantage: Roaf

Click to expand...

I always thought Roaf was way overated. He started off strong, and later his skills diminished. Everyone around the league would say "Willie Roaf" and he would get automatic praise, while non of them watched him enough. I went to A Saints game once and saw him get beat by Chuck Smith of the Falcons for 3 sacks in one game. No one talked about it. New Orleans homers chime in.

Ballstein said:

Chest Rockwell said:

Just Win Baby said:

Chest Rockwell said:

13/67 voted for Willie Roaf.

13 of 67. Really?

The bulk of the participants in this thread ought to just leave quietly and never, I mean never take part in a HOF discussion again.

13 out of 67? Embarrassing.

Click to expand...

He isn't more deserving than Faulk, Sanders, or Dawson, period. And that only leaves two more spots. IMO he isn't one of the next two most deserving, though that is where it gets more debatable. I think he should and will get inducted in a future class. But to suggest that anyone not voting for him is way off base just shows that you are way off base.

Click to expand...

OK. However, he certainly isn't less deserving.

1. Faulk, Sanders, and Dawson each made one NFL All-Decade team. Roaf made two. And, he made the 2000's squad despite retiring after the '05 season. How many players made an All-Decade squad even though they only participated in half the number of applicable seasons? No clue here, but I can't imagine it's more than a handful...if any.

Advantage: Roaf

2. Roaf made the Pro Bowl 11 times and a 9 time All-Pro (6 1st team selections). Faulk was a 7 time Pro Bowl selection and 6 time All-Pro (3 1st team selections). Sanders is credited w/8 Pro Bowls and 8 All-Pro selections (6 time 1st teamer). Dawson made 7 Pro Bowls and was named an All-Pro 6 times (all 1st teamers). It's close, but math is math and more is better.

Advantage: Roaf

3. Roaf was a 1st team All-Pro and Pro Bowl selection the last season he played in the NFL. Dawson was two years removed from any official accreditation for exceptional performance. Faulk and Sanders were unquestionably shells of their former selves by the time they walked away from the game. Roaf dominated until his final snap.

Advantage: Roaf

Click to expand...

I always thought Roaf was way overated. He started off strong, and later his skills diminished. Everyone around the league would say "Willie Roaf" and he would get automatic praise, while non of them watched him enough. I went to A Saints game once and saw him get beat by Chuck Smith of the Falcons for 3 sacks in one game. No one talked about it. New Orleans homers chime in.

Click to expand...

* HOF voters disagree. The National Football League All-Decade Teams are honorary teams named by members of the Pro Football Hall of Fame selection committee. Roaf was included on the 2000's team which accounts for his last six years in the league.* Coaches, Players, and fans disagree. They're the ones responsible for Pro Bowl balloting. They elected Roaf to the Pro Bowl in 5 of his last six years as an active player.

*The Sportswriters disagree. They're the ones responsible All-Pro balloting. They also elected Roaf to represent the NFL at the offensive tackle position 5 of his 6 years as an active player.

*Football Outsiders disagree. Here's a wonderfully descriptive 1st hand account of Roaf dominating Osi Umenyiora in 2005 in Every Play Counts. Here's another one about the Chiefs DVOA w/Roaf and without him.

*Chuck Smith disagrees. He said Roaf was the best LT he ever faced. Besides, Roaf acknowledged that the aforementioned game in which Chuck sort of had his way with him was "the worst game of my career".

*Archie Manning disagrees. You want New Orleans homers? Here you go. The biggest Saints on the planet said that Roaf "easily the most dominant tackle in the league."

I disagree. Look, Kansas City had one of the best offensive lines in the history of the NFL while Roaf was aboard. And yeah, the Chiefs offense featured future HOF'ers Tony Gonzalez and Will Shields and the likes of Priest Holmes, Larry Johnson, Brian Waters, and Trent Green. But more often than not, Willie Roaf was the best and most dominant player on the field when we had the ball. Unquestionably the best pulling tackle I've ever seen. Incredibly nimble feet and extremely fast for a man his size. For three or four years any variation of a left sweep was as close to a "money play" as I've ever seen in real, live NFL football. Willie was just a tremendous run blocker. Devastating, really. And as far as pass rushers are concerned he dominated everyone from Reggie White to Dwight Freeney. Total package.

Chest Rockwell said:

Just Win Baby said:

Chest Rockwell said:

13/67 voted for Willie Roaf.

13 of 67. Really?

The bulk of the participants in this thread ought to just leave quietly and never, I mean never take part in a HOF discussion again.

13 out of 67? Embarrassing.

Click to expand...

He isn't more deserving than Faulk, Sanders, or Dawson, period. And that only leaves two more spots. IMO he isn't one of the next two most deserving, though that is where it gets more debatable. I think he should and will get inducted in a future class. But to suggest that anyone not voting for him is way off base just shows that you are way off base.

Click to expand...

OK. However, he certainly isn't less deserving.

1. Faulk, Sanders, and Dawson each made one NFL All-Decade team. Roaf made two. And, he made the 2000's squad despite retiring after the '05 season. How many players made an All-Decade squad even though they only participated in half the number of applicable seasons? No clue here, but I can't imagine it's more than a handful...if any.

Advantage: Roaf

2. Roaf made the Pro Bowl 11 times and a 9 time All-Pro (6 1st team selections). Faulk was a 7 time Pro Bowl selection and 6 time All-Pro (3 1st team selections). Sanders is credited w/8 Pro Bowls and 8 All-Pro selections (6 time 1st teamer). Dawson made 7 Pro Bowls and was named an All-Pro 6 times (all 1st teamers). It's close, but math is math and more is better.

Advantage: Roaf

3. Roaf was a 1st team All-Pro and Pro Bowl selection the last season he played in the NFL. Dawson was two years removed from any official accreditation for exceptional performance. Faulk and Sanders were unquestionably shells of their former selves by the time they walked away from the game. Roaf dominated until his final snap.

Advantage: Roaf

Click to expand...

It's definitely a credit to Roaf that he made two All Decade teams. However, it isn't a fair comparison to compare the number of All Decade teams to the others and say advantage Roaf, since it is timing dependent.Sanders made the 1990s All Decade team and only played 1 year in the 1980s and 3 years in the 2000s, so it isn't reasonable to dock him in a comparison for not making a second All Decade team. Same situation for Dawson, whose first year starting was 1989 and whose last year in the league was 2000. It's perhaps a valid knock against Faulk, who didn't make any All Decade team; the issue for him in not making any was that his peak years were split across the end of the 1990s and beginning of the 2000s.

Your All Pro info is off base. I think the best source for these are AP selections, as are highlighted at pro-football-reference.com. Here are the AP selections for each:

Roaf: 3 1st team, 6 2nd team selections

Sanders: 6 1st team, 2 2nd team selections

Dawson: 6 1st team, 0 2nd team selections

Faulk: 3 1st team, 3 2nd team selections

The only one Roaf has a clear advantage over is Faulk, same as with the All Decade teams. But we know that RB careers tend to be shorter than most if not all other positions. I don't know for sure, but I expect the average HOF RB career is considerably shorter than the average HOF OL career. And, meanwhile, Faulk has a number of awards that Roaf cannot match (1994 OROY, 1999 OPOY, 2000 MVP, 2000 OPOY, 2001 OPOY). (And Sanders has a DPOY award, too.)

So while you have done a nice job of bringing up support for Roaf, I don't think your comparisons are particularly valid.

Orange Crush said:

Sheriff66 said:

Bettis won the Superbowl

Click to expand...

Oops. I'll fix that.

Click to expand...

Bettis only played in 1 Super Bowl, and won it

Faulk and Deion are obvious choices who should be on everyone's ballot. That leaves 3 spots.

Sabol has to make it in, IMO. NFL Films has just been so far ahead of anything else that any other sport has really done.

Tough call on the last two spots, but I'm going with Roaf and Dawson. Very difficult to leave Shannon Sharpe off my list, but I don't really have much issue with leaving the rest off.

Just Win Baby said:

Chest Rockwell said:

Just Win Baby said:

Chest Rockwell said:

13/67 voted for Willie Roaf.

13 of 67. Really?

The bulk of the participants in this thread ought to just leave quietly and never, I mean never take part in a HOF discussion again.

13 out of 67? Embarrassing.

Click to expand...

He isn't more deserving than Faulk, Sanders, or Dawson, period. And that only leaves two more spots. IMO he isn't one of the next two most deserving, though that is where it gets more debatable. I think he should and will get inducted in a future class. But to suggest that anyone not voting for him is way off base just shows that you are way off base.

Click to expand...

OK. However, he certainly isn't less deserving.

1. Faulk, Sanders, and Dawson each made one NFL All-Decade team. Roaf made two. And, he made the 2000's squad despite retiring after the '05 season. How many players made an All-Decade squad even though they only participated in half the number of applicable seasons? No clue here, but I can't imagine it's more than a handful...if any.

Advantage: Roaf

2. Roaf made the Pro Bowl 11 times and a 9 time All-Pro (6 1st team selections). Faulk was a 7 time Pro Bowl selection and 6 time All-Pro (3 1st team selections). Sanders is credited w/8 Pro Bowls and 8 All-Pro selections (6 time 1st teamer). Dawson made 7 Pro Bowls and was named an All-Pro 6 times (all 1st teamers). It's close, but math is math and more is better.

Advantage: Roaf

3. Roaf was a 1st team All-Pro and Pro Bowl selection the last season he played in the NFL. Dawson was two years removed from any official accreditation for exceptional performance. Faulk and Sanders were unquestionably shells of their former selves by the time they walked away from the game. Roaf dominated until his final snap.

Advantage: Roaf

Click to expand...

It's definitely a credit to Roaf that he made two All Decade teams. However, it isn't a fair comparison to compare the number of All Decade teams to the others and say advantage Roaf, since it is timing dependent.Sanders made the 1990s All Decade team and only played 1 year in the 1980s and 3 years in the 2000s, so it isn't reasonable to dock him in a comparison for not making a second All Decade team. Same situation for Dawson, whose first year starting was 1989 and whose last year in the league was 2000. It's perhaps a valid knock against Faulk, who didn't make any All Decade team; the issue for him in not making any was that his peak years were split across the end of the 1990s and beginning of the 2000s.

Your All Pro info is off base. I think the best source for these are AP selections, as are highlighted at pro-football-reference.com. Here are the AP selections for each:

Roaf: 3 1st team, 6 2nd team selections

Sanders: 6 1st team, 2 2nd team selections

Dawson: 6 1st team, 0 2nd team selections

Faulk: 3 1st team, 3 2nd team selections

The only one Roaf has a clear advantage over is Faulk, same as with the All Decade teams. But we know that RB careers tend to be shorter than most if not all other positions. I don't know for sure, but I expect the average HOF RB career is considerably shorter than the average HOF OL career. And, meanwhile, Faulk has a number of awards that Roaf cannot match (1994 OROY, 1999 OPOY, 2000 MVP, 2000 OPOY, 2001 OPOY). (And Sanders has a DPOY award, too.)

So while you have done a nice job of bringing up support for Roaf, I don't think your comparisons are particularly valid.

Click to expand...

My All-Pro info isn't off base. You've simply chosen to ignore the UPI, PFW, SN etc. That's fine, but it's usually a bad idea to copy and paste info from other message forums (your OP). It usually leads to faulty data sets, which is the case here. Roaf has four 1st team AP All-Pro selections. Not three. Pro-Football Reference is wrong. He achieved 1st team status in '94, '95, '03, and '04. This is also a solid indicator of his long term excellence.

Besides, if the AP's opinion is the only applicable criteria to measure greatness, then I believe you've reinforced my original point. Willie Roaf earned more Associated Press All-Pro selections than anyone on the list.