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DL Tiers (1 Viewer)

My league allows you to keep a player at their original position after they change positions. As such, I still have Kiwi as a DL even though he's playing SLB. He was a top 10 "DL" last year, do you expect that to continue, and do you think Mathis could be a similar "loophole" player?
I expect Kiwanuka's role to stay the same this year. If he stays healthy, he's a lock for around 50 solos and easily a top ten DE except in the most big play heavy leagues. Mathis may not have the same tackle upside, but he should be a little better in the big play department. Both would be in the near elite tier -- Kiwanuka near the top of the list, Mathis toward the bottom.
 
I'd throw Pernell McPhee's name in for DL4 consideration. He was one of the better DL rookies last year and flashed great pass rush skills (6 sacks) in limited time.

Redding has moved on and McPhee is likely to see more time at DE in the Raven's hybrid defense. By all reports, the Ravens love him. I think there's major upside here

 
Jene, It looks like Robison took a dive on your revised rankings. Can you expand on that?

 
'HPD said:
Jene, It looks like Robison took a dive on your revised rankings. Can you expand on that?
A closer look at his tackle numbers bothered me, as did the so-so pressure numbers over the second half of the season and against better offensive tackles. I think the 9 sacks might be his ceiling and his run support numbers won't keep him afloat if the pass rush numbers dip.
 
Jene would you explain to me why

Mark Anderson DL BUF made such a big climb in your 2nd Post of your updated DL tiers?

Is it because Mark Anderson won't see double teams cause of Mario Williams? And because Gailey (Coach) said Anderson should be on the field for 50 to 60 snaps?

 
Jene would you explain to me why Mark Anderson DL BUF made such a big climb in your 2nd Post of your updated DL tiers? Is it because Mark Anderson won't see double teams cause of Mario Williams? And because Gailey (Coach) said Anderson should be on the field for 50 to 60 snaps?
...and are we sure that Anderson will even start over Kelsey, or will he just be a pass rush specialist.Anderson was a liability against the run in Chicago.
 
This says it best

(4/1/12) Coach Chan Gailey insists RE Mark Anderson is "competing to play every snap" as opposed to being ticketed for a situational pass rushing role. "That's the way we watched him and looked at him," said Gailey. "You don't pay that kind of money to specialty players. You pay that kind of money to a guy that you think can be out there 50, 60 plays." Anderson will compete with quality run defender Chris Kelsay at right end. According to the Boston Globe, the Patriots' reaction to Anderson's four-year, $19.5 million contract was, "So long and good luck."

WIth Jene having Anderson as a potential top 12 to tp 15 DL in his latest rankings. I don't think he is just a pass rusher specialty player.

 
Jene would you explain to me why Mark Anderson DL BUF made such a big climb in your 2nd Post of your updated DL tiers? Is it because Mark Anderson won't see double teams cause of Mario Williams? And because Gailey (Coach) said Anderson should be on the field for 50 to 60 snaps?
There aren't that many defensive ends that may get 800 snaps. Still, I'm probably a half tier too high on him, even with my bias toward upside on guys I like. Late teens feels high; he'd be a smarter grab in the 20-25 range or later given the wide range of potential outcomes.
 
Haloti Ngata (DT)Marcell Dareus (DT)Ahtyba Rubin (DT)Geno Atkins (DT)Kyle Williams (DT)Phil Taylor (DT)Sione Pouha (DT)Richard Seymour (DT)Gerald McCoy (DT)Vince Wilfork (DT)
Curious where you'd value the DTs in a DT required league, same scoring as DEs.
 
Haloti Ngata (DT)Marcell Dareus (DT)Ahtyba Rubin (DT)Geno Atkins (DT)Kyle Williams (DT)Phil Taylor (DT)Sione Pouha (DT)Richard Seymour (DT)Gerald McCoy (DT)Vince Wilfork (DT)
Curious where you'd value the DTs in a DT required league, same scoring as DEs.
Not sure I understand exactly what you're looking for here. Separate tiers for DTs? Or some idea of how to approach drafting and rostering DT with respect to DE?If it's a separate set of tiers, I may not get to that until May. If it's more of an approach question, my general philosophy is to try to draft/roster one of the top 5-7 above (which includes Suh, too) and then take shots on upside plays until I find a viable DT1 and/or DT2. I try to have an "elite" tier (guys I'll target (at value) in the draft and/or will hold for longer than a cold week or two), an upside tier (guys I like but aren't willing to spend a valuable draft pick or roster spot on until I have to) and a watch list (guys that might fit into on of the two above tiers that I want to be ready to move on if the trend looks right).
 
Haloti Ngata (DT)Marcell Dareus (DT)Ahtyba Rubin (DT)Geno Atkins (DT)Kyle Williams (DT)Phil Taylor (DT)Sione Pouha (DT)Richard Seymour (DT)Gerald McCoy (DT)Vince Wilfork (DT)
Curious where you'd value the DTs in a DT required league, same scoring as DEs.
Not sure I understand exactly what you're looking for here. Separate tiers for DTs? Or some idea of how to approach drafting and rostering DT with respect to DE?If it's a separate set of tiers, I may not get to that until May. If it's more of an approach question, my general philosophy is to try to draft/roster one of the top 5-7 above (which includes Suh, too) and then take shots on upside plays until I find a viable DT1 and/or DT2. I try to have an "elite" tier (guys I'll target (at value) in the draft and/or will hold for longer than a cold week or two), an upside tier (guys I like but aren't willing to spend a valuable draft pick or roster spot on until I have to) and a watch list (guys that might fit into on of the two above tiers that I want to be ready to move on if the trend looks right).
Simply a question of value in leagues that require a DT to start. One could make the argument that Suh would be as valuable as any of the elite DEs if the difference between him and the other DTs is huge. After him it gets complicated I think. For example, I have Dareus who I like a lot and would value him around the Quinn/Watt level. Just curious on your take. (I realize it's a lot like asking how to value RBs vs. QBs.)
 
Simply a question of value in leagues that require a DT to start. One could make the argument that Suh would be as valuable as any of the elite DEs if the difference between him and the other DTs is huge. After him it gets complicated I think. For example, I have Dareus who I like a lot and would value him around the Quinn/Watt level. Just curious on your take. (I realize it's a lot like asking how to value RBs vs. QBs.)
I had some reservations (consistency of run defense, streaky pass rush play, how he'd handle increasing OL focus) with it, but I made that argument with Suh last year.Generally, I agree. Even those defensive tackles I'd consider near elite -- the Dareus, Rubin, etc group -- are hard to value above a DE with upside. Purely in mathematical terms, the relative value of that DT tier suggests they deserve consideration there or higher, but the wide range of expectation most of those DTs hold and the usual market forces of IDP leagues (most leagues won't follow anything close to true relative value or use foresight in the draft/roster process for a DT) usually means you don't have to pay full relative value cost for that DT tier unless you're sold on one guy in particular.
 
I am a second that is eagerly awaiting DT only rankings. CB only as well.

Would love to see specific lists for these positions vs simply DL/DB rankings that grey out the DE/S names.

 
I am a second that is eagerly awaiting DT only rankings. CB only as well.Would love to see specific lists for these positions vs simply DL/DB rankings that grey out the DE/S names.
:goodposting: I'm in several leagues that have every position separated out and it would be great to see positional rankings broken out.
 
Simply a question of value in leagues that require a DT to start. One could make the argument that Suh would be as valuable as any of the elite DEs if the difference between him and the other DTs is huge. After him it gets complicated I think. For example, I have Dareus who I like a lot and would value him around the Quinn/Watt level. Just curious on your take. (I realize it's a lot like asking how to value RBs vs. QBs.)
I had some reservations (consistency of run defense, streaky pass rush play, how he'd handle increasing OL focus) with it, but I made that argument with Suh last year.Generally, I agree. Even those defensive tackles I'd consider near elite -- the Dareus, Rubin, etc group -- are hard to value above a DE with upside. Purely in mathematical terms, the relative value of that DT tier suggests they deserve consideration there or higher, but the wide range of expectation most of those DTs hold and the usual market forces of IDP leagues (most leagues won't follow anything close to true relative value or use foresight in the draft/roster process for a DT) usually means you don't have to pay full relative value cost for that DT tier unless you're sold on one guy in particular.
Jene, what are your thoughts on Dareus since MFL has him classified as a DE and not a DT?
 
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Simply a question of value in leagues that require a DT to start. One could make the argument that Suh would be as valuable as any of the elite DEs if the difference between him and the other DTs is huge. After him it gets complicated I think. For example, I have Dareus who I like a lot and would value him around the Quinn/Watt level. Just curious on your take. (I realize it's a lot like asking how to value RBs vs. QBs.)
I had some reservations (consistency of run defense, streaky pass rush play, how he'd handle increasing OL focus) with it, but I made that argument with Suh last year.Generally, I agree. Even those defensive tackles I'd consider near elite -- the Dareus, Rubin, etc group -- are hard to value above a DE with upside. Purely in mathematical terms, the relative value of that DT tier suggests they deserve consideration there or higher, but the wide range of expectation most of those DTs hold and the usual market forces of IDP leagues (most leagues won't follow anything close to true relative value or use foresight in the draft/roster process for a DT) usually means you don't have to pay full relative value cost for that DT tier unless you're sold on one guy in particular.
Jene, what are your thoughts on Dareus since MFL has him classified as a DE and not a DT?
He'll be changed to DT in the MFL database before the season begins, possibly as early as the first update shortly after the draft.I was a fan of Dareus this time last year and he was very impressive during the regular season. With Williams and Williams flanking him, he's clearly in the elite DT tier for me and would be one of the few DTs I'd be comfortable rostering as DL3 depth in DL-inclusive leagues.
 
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Vinny Cerrato reports Terrell Suggs has torn Achilles, likely out for 2012 #Ravens season. 1st reported on @1057TheFan

 
I'll be translating these tiers into a 1-60 ranking and posting it to the website rankings page this weekend.

+ / - notations indicate a player that has moved up or down X number of tiers since last update.

Version 3.0

ELITE

Jason Pierre-Paul

Jared Allen

Trent Cole

Mario Williams

Justin Tuck

Julius Peppers

NEAR ELITE

Cameron Wake

Osi Umenyiora

Jason Babin

Chris Long

Elvis Dumervil

Charles Johnson

Jabaal Sheard

ELITE DL2 / TOP 12 UPSIDE

Cliff Avril

Kamerion Wimbley

Chris Clemons

JJ Watt +

HIGH FLOOR DL2

Jeremy Mincey

Calais Campbell

Justin Smith

Adrian Clayborn +

DL3 W/ TOP 20 UPSIDE

Robert Quinn

John Abraham

Mark Anderson -

Carlos Dunlap

Derrick Morgan

Ndamukong Suh

Andre Branch

Michael Johnson

DL3 MATCHUP/ROTATIONAL

Darnell Dockett

Haloti Ngata (DT)

Marcell Dareus (DT)

Ahtyba Rubin (DT)

Da'Quan Bowers

Will Smith

Greg Hardy

Frostee Rucker

Lamarr Houston

Kyle Vanden Bosch

Brian Robison

Bruce Irvin +++

Pernell McPhee +

Matt Shaughnessy

Geno Atkins (DT)

Shea McClellin ++

Ray Edwards

Israel Idonije

DL4 DEPTH

Kyle Williams (DT)

Phil Taylor (DT)

Kroy Biermann

Lawrence Jackson

Cameron Jordan

Cullen Jenkins (DT)

Fletcher Cox (DT)

Brandon Graham

Richard Seymour (DT)

Tommy Kelly (DT)

Cory Redding

Jonathan Fanene

Tyson Alualu (DT)

Robert Ayers

Antonio Smith

Dave Ball

Desmond Bryant

Aaron Kampman

Glenn Dorsey

Quinton Coples

Jerel Worthy

Ziggy Hood

Corey Liuget

Kendall Reyes

DEVELOPMENTAL WATCH

Jared Crick

Malik Jackson

Olivier Vernon

Willie Young

Jonathan Massaquoi

ROSTERABLE DT2

Karl Klug

Jurrell Casey

Corey Williams

Brodrick Bunkley

Christian Ballard

BJ Raji

Sedrick Ellis

Cam Thomas

Antonio Garay

 
So Suggs no longer even on your list? Also still assuming Mathis would be in your 2nd tier if still able to use him as DL?

As always, many, many thanks for all of your great IDP work!

 
So Suggs no longer even on your list? Also still assuming Mathis would be in your 2nd tier if still able to use him as DL?As always, many, many thanks for all of your great IDP work!
These are redraft rankings. I think it's highly unlikely Suggs holds any redraft value this year. Best case scenario is a partial tear and that he'll start on the PUP list with the hopes of returning late in the season if the Ravens are actively in the playoff hunt.Mathis would be in the near elite tier in his expected role in leagues that classify him as a DL.
 
No Vinny Curry? I would have thought at the very least he makes your developmental watch. I know there won't be much production this year but lots of people will use these ranks for dynasty purposes

 
A couple of guys to add to sleeper lists:

Junior Galette/Greg Romeus: With Will Smith getting slapped with a 4 game suspension, one of these guys may be able to grab the starting job and run with it. (Smith has been merely average in the last couple of years, IMO). Both are young, and while Romeus may have more upside with a prototypical frame and big college production, Galette has shown some serious pass rushing skills in the past year despite being a bit undersized. Watch camp reports carefully to see if Romeus is healthy or if Galette is impressing again. Both may have value in deeper leagues, especially if Cameron Jordan struggles out of the gate again.

Michael Bennett: Brother of Martellus, Michael benefits from Bowers' achilles injury and should see a full set of snaps this season. Bowers was no lock to unseat Bennett anyway. Still just 26, he could emerge as a force in strong young D-Line in Tampa Bay across from Adrian Clayborn.

Everson Griffen: Underused by all accounts last season, Griffen is as athletic as they come (has even played some ILB for Minnesota). Slipped in the '10 draft due to character concerns, Griffen has kept his nose clean in the past year and was productive in limited time. Word is that Vikings want Griffen to see more snaps to limit the wear on Allen and Robison. Reminds me a lot of another under-utilized DE, Carlos Dunlap.

 
No Vinny Curry? I would have thought at the very least he makes your developmental watch. I know there won't be much production this year but lots of people will use these ranks for dynasty purposes
Yep, oversight. Will correct on the next update. Thanks.
A couple of guys to add to sleeper lists:Junior Galette/Greg Romeus: With Will Smith getting slapped with a 4 game suspension, one of these guys may be able to grab the starting job and run with it. (Smith has been merely average in the last couple of years, IMO). Both are young, and while Romeus may have more upside with a prototypical frame and big college production, Galette has shown some serious pass rushing skills in the past year despite being a bit undersized. Watch camp reports carefully to see if Romeus is healthy or if Galette is impressing again. Both may have value in deeper leagues, especially if Cameron Jordan struggles out of the gate again.Michael Bennett: Brother of Martellus, Michael benefits from Bowers' achilles injury and should see a full set of snaps this season. Bowers was no lock to unseat Bennett anyway. Still just 26, he could emerge as a force in strong young D-Line in Tampa Bay across from Adrian Clayborn.Everson Griffen: Underused by all accounts last season, Griffen is as athletic as they come (has even played some ILB for Minnesota). Slipped in the '10 draft due to character concerns, Griffen has kept his nose clean in the past year and was productive in limited time. Word is that Vikings want Griffen to see more snaps to limit the wear on Allen and Robison. Reminds me a lot of another under-utilized DE, Carlos Dunlap.
Agree on Bennett. Will be in the DL3 tiers after Bowers' injury. I see Griffen more as a stand-up, move around the formation nickel rusher but it looks like he'll remain a DE in MFL. He probably belongs around the bottom of the DL3 rotational / top of DL4 depth group.
 
Also Jene, where do you see Upshaw now that the plan is to have him playing Suggs role. He has already been switched to DE by MFL.

 
Jean, when Jason Pierre-Paul came out he was looked at as somewhat of a project. He hadnt played alot in college if i remember correct. I could be wrong but i remember drafting him late in my dynasty IDP league. Do you see anyone in this draft that is worth a flyer on that falls into that mold. Thanks

 
Also Jene, where do you see Upshaw now that the plan is to have him playing Suggs role. He has already been switched to DE by MFL.
I'm not sure I buy that he'll be used in the Suggs role or that he'll play every down. If he does, he'd be a matchup DE3 with DE2+ upside. If not, marginal matchup DE3.
 
Jean, when Jason Pierre-Paul came out he was looked at as somewhat of a project. He hadnt played alot in college if i remember correct. I could be wrong but i remember drafting him late in my dynasty IDP league. Do you see anyone in this draft that is worth a flyer on that falls into that mold. Thanks
Project with that kind of upside? Probably not. Maybe Chandler Jones/Vinny Curry could be considered 4th-5th round rookie picks with long term top 10 upside if they hit their ceilings. Robert Quinn, Adrian Clayborn, Derrick Morgan, Carlos Dunlap are the closest things to what JPP was this time last year. Quinn and Dunlap are the highest upside bets.
 
Jean, when Jason Pierre-Paul came out he was looked at as somewhat of a project. He hadnt played alot in college if i remember correct. I could be wrong but i remember drafting him late in my dynasty IDP league. Do you see anyone in this draft that is worth a flyer on that falls into that mold. Thanks
First I have ever heard of a DE drafted #15 overall described as a "project". I think that was more a matter of his situation at the time, behind Justin Tuck, Osi Umenyiora, and Mathias Kiwanuka. He was also First team All-American his final season of college as well.Raw? Yes. PROJECT? Heck no.. :)
 
Jene, I see you've bumped Shaughnessy down quite a bit from Version 2.0. I take it that has more to do with the Raiders intending to play mulitple fronts than a reflection on Shaughnessy himself?

I just traded for him last night in a deep dynasty league, and I hope I didn't make a mistake. My thought process was that the Raiders will still have to play quite a bit of 4-3 this season since they really don't have the personnel to play a 3-4. Also, Shaughnessy is in the final year of his contract and he really doesn't profile as a 3-4 DE or OLB, so if the Raiders want to continue moving in that direction in 2013, they'll proabbly let him walk and he'll sign a multi-year deal with a 4-3 team. Do you agree with this assessment?

 
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Odrick is to be the RDE on rush downs and move inside on pass downs. He had 6 sacks last year in a 3-4 so I'm hoping he can work out. I'm curious what you think of him Jene.

 
Jean, when Jason Pierre-Paul came out he was looked at as somewhat of a project. He hadnt played alot in college if i remember correct. I could be wrong but i remember drafting him late in my dynasty IDP league. Do you see anyone in this draft that is worth a flyer on that falls into that mold. Thanks
First I have ever heard of a DE drafted #15 overall described as a "project". I think that was more a matter of his situation at the time, behind Justin Tuck, Osi Umenyiora, and Mathias Kiwanuka. He was also First team All-American his final season of college as well.Raw? Yes. PROJECT? Heck no.. :)
Maybe he meant "project" in terms of fantasy production. Would you start a rookie DL every week in a 10-12 team IDP league?
 
+ / - notations indicate a player that has moved up or down X number of tiers since last update.

Version 3.1

ELITE

Jason Pierre-Paul

Jared Allen

Trent Cole

Mario Williams

NEAR ELITE

Justin Tuck -

Julius Peppers -

Osi Umenyiora

Jason Babin

Elvis Dumervil

Cameron Wake

Chris Long

Jabaal Sheard

Cliff Avril +

Kamerion Wimbley +

Calais Campbell +

(Terrell Suggs)

ELITE DL2 / TOP 12 UPSIDE

Charles Johnson

Chris Clemons

JJ Watt

Justin Smith +

DL2 GRAB BAG

Jeremy Mincey

Adrian Clayborn

Robert Quinn +

Carlos Dunlap +

John Abraham

Mark Anderson

Derrick Morgan +

Ndamukong Suh (DT)

DL3 W/ TOP 25 UPSIDE

Andre Carter (if/when signed)

Michael Bennett ++

Greg Hardy +

Will Smith (suspension)

Andre Branch

Michael Johnson

Matt Shaughnessy

DT1 w/ DL3 VALUE

Haloti Ngata (DT)

Marcell Dareus (DT)

Ahtyba Rubin (DT)

Geno Atkins (DT)

ROSTERABLE DL3/DL4

Darnell Dockett

Frostee Rucker

Lamarr Houston

Kyle Vanden Bosch

Brian Robison

Bruce Irvin

Courtney Upshaw +

Pernell McPhee

Lawrence Jackson

Chandler Jones

Israel Idonije

Jared Odrick

Ray Edwards

DRAFTABLE IN DT-MANDATORY LEAGUES

Kyle Williams

Cullen Jenkins

Fletcher Cox

Richard Seymour

Tommy Kelly

Tyson Alualu

Karl Klug

Jurrell Casey

Corey Williams

SPEED DIAL FREE AGENT TARGETS

Cameron Jordan

Brandon Graham

Shea McClellin -

Quinton Coples +

Kroy Biermann

INJURY HOLDS

Da'Quan Bowers --

DEVELOPMENTAL WATCH

Vinny Curry

Jared Crick

Malik Jackson

Olivier Vernon

Willie Young

Jonathan Massaquoi

 
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Hi Jene,

I play in a 12 team league with high IDP scoring where sacks & DL interceptions are 6 points each while DL forced fumbles are 4 points each, DL tackles are 3 points for solos and 2 for assists vs (LB & DBs tackles are 2 points for solos and 1 for assists).

So, it is obvious that good DLs that get many sacks and forced fumbles can have monster scoring games.

Would Thomas Keiser, CAR DE be rosterable in this scoring system as a project (we have 45 man rosters), do you have any recommendations of waiver wire pick ups or projects to watch for?

To give you an idea of who is rostered, most of the DL in your first four DL tiers are usually rostered, and sometime a few owners will jump on a DL prospect just based on potential.

Thank you, and all of your advise would be greatly appreciated!

 
Jean - I see that Robert Ayers is not on the list anymore - what are your thoughts on rostering him? I know Dumervil is the man for now but a former first round pick not on the list at all? TIA

 
Jean - I see that Robert Ayers is not on the list anymore - what are your thoughts on rostering him? I know Dumervil is the man for now but a former first round pick not on the list at all? TIA
He might have been a little better than his stat line suggests, but I doubt he'll be consistent enough to have any real value. The Broncos began rotating him out heavily by midseason, which both helps his NFL value and limits his fantasy value. Maybe he'll show signs of life late this year or next year during his contract season.
 
What do you think of Dal DE Sean Lissemore? Would he belong in the Developmental Watch list probably? I've been adding him and Willie Young in a lot of leagues over the last month... It's sounding like Coleman is gone, and even tho Spears probably starts right now both him and Hatcher are 29. Not to mention the high remarks from coaches, as well as PFF's talk of him...

 
Shawne Merriman changing to DE - I'm assuming he will be rotational, but what will that mean for Mario and Mark - if anything

 
Shawne Merriman changing to DE - I'm assuming he will be rotational, but what will that mean for Mario and Mark - if anything
We'll see. I'll believe that Merriman is capable of playing more than 15 snaps a game and a few games a season when I see it.
 
Wilkerson does not belong anywhere? I thought he was decent as a rookie. Any thoughts no him?
Like Wilkerson and there's a good argument for him to have him in the rosterable depth tier. May have missed putting him in my top 60 for the site, though. I'll check that and add him if needed.
 
Jene - Thanks for all the great IDP information you provide

My question is about Jarvis Jenkins

I see he is not listed anywhere on your list (I know you can't list everyone) but wonder if there are reasons that would prevent him from being listed. I was high on him last year until his ACL in preseason and I kept him on IR. Not seeing him listed this year makes me wonder if he is worth keeping. It seems like they could use an upgrade for the starting DE's in Washington which would give him a chance if healthy now.

Thanks

 
Jene - Thanks for all the great IDP information you provideMy question is about Jarvis JenkinsI see he is not listed anywhere on your list (I know you can't list everyone) but wonder if there are reasons that would prevent him from being listed. I was high on him last year until his ACL in preseason and I kept him on IR. Not seeing him listed this year makes me wonder if he is worth keeping. It seems like they could use an upgrade for the starting DE's in Washington which would give him a chance if healthy now.Thanks
There's opportunity there but he'll have to overcome the knee injury, the 3-4 scheme, an unknown number of rotational snaps on base and subpackage downs and show he has an elite pass rush from the 5-technique position or is an unstoppable force against the run to project to something better than 25-30 solos/2-4 sacks. Those numbers aren't worth rostering even as a matchup play in most leagues.
 
can I get some wimbley chat?what was his role in cle/oak the last couple years, snaps, etc?
Mostly 3-4 OLB in Cleveland, every-down. Flashed superior pass rush at times, and may have been more consistent than his stat line suggested then. Mostly 4-3 SLB with some DE snaps and played every down in Oakland. Much better against the run than he'd been in Cleveland and more consistent finishing plays in the pocket.
 

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