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Joe Flacco - So What Changed? (1 Viewer)

Run It Up

Run It Up

Footballguy
Im very serious, seemingly since the AFC Championship last year till now Joe Flacco has been a completely different Quarterback. What changed? I very much thought he was done after posting his worst statistical year last year. Is it the possible emergence of Torrey Smith?

His weapons havent really changed, the defense hasnt really changed. Was last year a wake up call? Just curious what you guys think caused such a drastic change in his quality of play, which in my opinion before the 2011 season was mediocre and in the 2011 season before the AFC championship was awful. Granted there is plenty of football left to play.

Code: 
Year     Age  Tm Pos No.  G GS   QBrec  Cmp  Att Cmp%   Yds TD TD% Int Int% Lng  Y/A AY/A  Y/C   Y/G  Rate  Sk  Yds NY/A ANY/A Sk% 4QC GWD AV2008      23 BAL  QB   5 16 16  11-5-0  257  428 60.0  2971 14 3.3  12  2.8  70  6.9  6.3 11.6 185.7  80.3  32  276  5.9   5.3 7.0   1   2 112009      24 BAL  QB   5 16 16   9-7-0  315  499 63.1  3613 21 4.2  12  2.4  72  7.2  7.0 11.5 225.8  88.9  36  218  6.3   6.1 6.7   1   2 132010      25 BAL  QB   5 16 16  12-4-0  306  489 62.6  3622 25 5.1  10  2.0  67  7.4  7.5 11.8 226.4  93.6  40  294  6.3   6.4 7.6   2   4 122011      26 BAL  QB   5 16 16  12-4-0  312  542 57.6  3610 20 3.7  12  2.2  74  6.7  6.4 11.6 225.6  80.9  31  203  5.9   5.7 5.4   2   3 122012      27 BAL  QB   5  1  1   1-0-0   21   29 72.4   299  2 6.9   0  0.0  52 10.3 11.7 14.2 299.0 128.4   3   21  8.7   9.9 9.4   0   0   Career                   65 65 45-20-0 1211 1987 60.9 14115 82 4.1  46  2.3  74  7.1  6.9 11.7 217.2  86.6 142 1012  6.2   6.0 6.7   6  11 48
 
I do think he's in for a good year because they are trying a new style of offense that appears to work well for him. However, it is just 1 game, so you can't really go comparing stats. Even though I think Smith will emerge this year, he had 2 catches yesterday, so you can't really attribute Flacco's success yesterday to him.

 
'steveski said:
I do think he's in for a good year because they are trying a new style of offense that appears to work well for him. However, it is just 1 game, so you can't really go comparing stats. Even though I think Smith will emerge this year, he had 2 catches yesterday, so you can't really attribute Flacco's success yesterday to him.
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Im going back to last years playoffs in terms of his turn around. Im a doubter for sure definitely dont get me wrong Im just curious because there was a thread earlier this month about a staffers ranking of Flacco (that was probably a simple mistake) in which the consensus seemed to be mid tier QB2 - which is well above where I had him this year.
 
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He threw about 3 passes last night that definitely should have been picked off, but he also made some throws that were just ridiculous down the field. For fantasy, he can be a stud if they open it up like last night. He just needs to keep the INTs down so they stay agressive with their game plan.

 
They seemed to be going overboard trying to prove a point last night. Yeah, we get it, you're a passing team now. Did Rice even get 10 carries?

 
He's finally taking leadership according to reports. His Joe Cool routine was great as a rookie, but apparently the guys needed him to be more vocal. The game plan has changed, the team is his, he has always had an elite arm, and after coming from a small school has had enough time to learn the nfl schemes. I expected this to be honest, but not completely sold till it happens consistently.

 
His weapons have probably gotten better even if they aren't new faces. Smith, Dickson, and Pitta are all pretty young. With the new, no huddle offense the potential for a jump in productivity was definitely there. Plus, if you simply switch out his completion percentage from 2010 with 2011, you get a pretty darn good year from him last year (his yards per completion were pretty much the same the last two years, he just didn't complete as many passes).

He had been trending up in ypa before last year. What had held him back was a lack of passes. If he gets back on track and hits a reasonable target of 7.6 ypa for 550 attempts, he's around 4200 yards. If he mildly improves upon his 1 TD/19.56 attempts from 2010, then he could hit 30 TDs pretty easily. Given the improved WR/TE options from 2010, this seems very feasible.

Finally, and this is a big one, if the defense suffers from the loss of a couple D-line contributors then they'll be forced to pass more than last year. Should Flacco end up with 600 attempts then he's easily in QB1 territory. I know the D looked fine against a below average Cincy offense last night, but I think they get exposed as the year goes on.

I took him and/or Palmer as my QB2 in most leagues this year. I like his chances for a bounce back. He was a bargain at $11 in the subscriber contest.

So far he's off to a good start. Even if Torrey Smith drops the 52 yarder, Flacco would still be at 12.4 yards per completion.

 
Boldin also had surgery on his knee at the end of last year. His trainer said he looked to be in the best shape since hes been in Baltimore.

I dont think he should be running reverses though lol.

 
'scrumptrulescent said:
They seemed to be going overboard trying to prove a point last night. Yeah, we get it, you're a passing team now. Did Rice even get 10 carries?
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He did (exactly) but it seemed like the offense helped him. 6.8 ypc against a pretty good run defense and that's without a long run to up the average (longest run was 16 yards). Even if you do the ever popular subtract-the-long-play, you get 5.8 ypc. Conversely, if you remove the 1-yd TD, you're at 7.4 ypc. Either way, can't really complain about Rice playing in an offense that yielded him 2 TDs last night.
 
It frustrates me when people say that Flacco's performance in the AFC Championship game was some kind of turning point, that he outdueled Brady. In that game, Flacco was playing the worst pass defense in the NFL in 2011. Of course he should look good (and Brady was playing a top D, so of course it was going to be hard). Just the week before against Houston - when he was playing the overall top defense in the NFL and the Ravens scored 3 points in the game's final 46 minutes - people were saying he was terrible.

Flacco has always been a pretty good QB. Last year, the Ravens happened to play 12 games vs. opponents with defenses in the NFL's Top 10. On the very rare occasions when they played a bad D (Indy, St. Louis, and New England) he put up big numbers.

That being said, I see Flacco making continued improvement this year with the arrival of Jim Caldwell as his QB coach. His play fakes are better, his footwork is markedly better leading to more consistent accuracy, and he also has someone helping him see the game - last year the Ravens fired his QB coach (Jim Zorn) and he clashed during the year with Offensive coordinator Cam Cameron.

 
'The_Man said:
It frustrates me when people say that Flacco's performance in the AFC Championship game was some kind of turning point, that he outdueled Brady. In that game, Flacco was playing the worst pass defense in the NFL in 2011. Of course he should look good (and Brady was playing a top D, so of course it was going to be hard). Just the week before against Houston - when he was playing the overall top defense in the NFL and the Ravens scored 3 points in the game's final 46 minutes - people were saying he was terrible.

Flacco has always been a pretty good QB. Last year, the Ravens happened to play 12 games vs. opponents with defenses in the NFL's Top 10. On the very rare occasions when they played a bad D (Indy, St. Louis, and New England) he put up big numbers.

That being said, I see Flacco making continued improvement this year with the arrival of Jim Caldwell as his QB coach. His play fakes are better, his footwork is markedly better leading to more consistent accuracy, and he also has someone helping him see the game - last year the Ravens fired his QB coach (Jim Zorn) and he clashed during the year with Offensive coordinator Cam Cameron.
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Lol I will never utter those words, the disparity between baltimore and NE defenses was a contributing factor in both of their performances. But every other time they played (except when they didnt have Welker and the TEs, 2009 playoffs i believe) they got convincingly beat even if they score wasnt indicative of that. It was still the best game ive ever seen Flacco play. Rarely get to see the humble pats fan.
 
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I think he and Matt Ryan right now might be the two QB we are looking at that may have a chance to jump up into or near that top tier of QBs. I think what happens is a combination of maturity and a greater understand of their role as an NFL QB along with the team giving them their trust. Eli Manning has taken a step up over the last couple of seasons, and remember when Tom Brady was thought of as a good QB but not a great fantasy player? He finally reached a point that New England put the game in his hands and he has now been elite for several years.

I'm not saying Ryan and Flacco are both climbing into elite status this year but they seem to be a couple of guys who are being giving more opportunity to potentially climb into that status.

 
'Run It Up said:
'The_Man said:
It frustrates me when people say that Flacco's performance in the AFC Championship game was some kind of turning point, that he outdueled Brady. In that game, Flacco was playing the worst pass defense in the NFL in 2011. Of course he should look good (and Brady was playing a top D, so of course it was going to be hard). Just the week before against Houston - when he was playing the overall top defense in the NFL and the Ravens scored 3 points in the game's final 46 minutes - people were saying he was terrible.

Flacco has always been a pretty good QB. Last year, the Ravens happened to play 12 games vs. opponents with defenses in the NFL's Top 10. On the very rare occasions when they played a bad D (Indy, St. Louis, and New England) he put up big numbers.

That being said, I see Flacco making continued improvement this year with the arrival of Jim Caldwell as his QB coach. His play fakes are better, his footwork is markedly better leading to more consistent accuracy, and he also has someone helping him see the game - last year the Ravens fired his QB coach (Jim Zorn) and he clashed during the year with Offensive coordinator Cam Cameron.
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Lol I will never utter those words, the disparity between baltimore and NE defenses was a contributing factor in both of their performances. But every other time they played (except when they didnt have Welker and the TEs, 2009 playoffs i believe) they got convincingly beat even if they score wasnt indicative of that. It was still the best game ive ever seen Flacco play. Rarely get to see the humble pats fan.
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Not to hijack, but this couldn't be more false. Flacco is 1-3 versus the Pat's and none of the 3 losses have been by more than 6. One went to OT and another (last year AFC Champ game) should have gone to OT. The games were all close to the end, so not sure how you can say they got beat "convincingly" every other time.

That said, never before has Flacco been asked to be the focal point of the offense. He's got ability, just never the opportunity.

 
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'FF Ninja said:
His weapons have probably gotten better even if they aren't new faces. Smith, Dickson, and Pitta are all pretty young. With the new, no huddle offense the potential for a jump in productivity was definitely there. Plus, if you simply switch out his completion percentage from 2010 with 2011, you get a pretty darn good year from him last year (his yards per completion were pretty much the same the last two years, he just didn't complete as many passes). He had been trending up in ypa before last year. What had held him back was a lack of passes. If he gets back on track and hits a reasonable target of 7.6 ypa for 550 attempts, he's around 4200 yards. If he mildly improves upon his 1 TD/19.56 attempts from 2010, then he could hit 30 TDs pretty easily. Given the improved WR/TE options from 2010, this seems very feasible.Finally, and this is a big one, if the defense suffers from the loss of a couple D-line contributors then they'll be forced to pass more than last year. Should Flacco end up with 600 attempts then he's easily in QB1 territory. I know the D looked fine against a below average Cincy offense last night, but I think they get exposed as the year goes on.I took him and/or Palmer as my QB2 in most leagues this year. I like his chances for a bounce back. He was a bargain at $11 in the subscriber contest.So far he's off to a good start. Even if Torrey Smith drops the 52 yarder, Flacco would still be at 12.4 yards per completion.
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Good analysis.
 
'Warhogs said:
I think he and Matt Ryan right now might be the two QB we are looking at that may have a chance to jump up into or near that top tier of QBs. I think what happens is a combination of maturity and a greater understand of their role as an NFL QB along with the team giving them their trust. Eli Manning has taken a step up over the last couple of seasons, and remember when Tom Brady was thought of as a good QB but not a great fantasy player? He finally reached a point that New England put the game in his hands and he has now been elite for several years. I'm not saying Ryan and Flacco are both climbing into elite status this year but they seem to be a couple of guys who are being giving more opportunity to potentially climb into that status.
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I think you need to add Cutler to the mix.
 
I'm hoping Flacco has taken a big step forward, but I need to see just a bit more to be convinced. This week @ Philly should be a good test. Those of us using him in a true QBBC (Flacco/Luck/Locker in my case) would LOVE to see Flacco become an every week starter, obviously. Til I'm comfortable w/ that, I'm gonna play matchup.

 
Didnt I read somewhere that they are just now 9for the first time) giving him full run of the offense? Brady/Manning/Brees like control.

I could be wrong, but i think i read somewhere that before this season they kept him on a very tight leash. This is suppose to be the season where they hand it over to him and see if he's worth the big contract or not.

I dont like his match up this week vs Philly, but I have a feeling he will be a value play in a lot of weekly games this season.

 
'Modog814 said:
'Run It Up said:
'The_Man said:
It frustrates me when people say that Flacco's performance in the AFC Championship game was some kind of turning point, that he outdueled Brady. In that game, Flacco was playing the worst pass defense in the NFL in 2011. Of course he should look good (and Brady was playing a top D, so of course it was going to be hard). Just the week before against Houston - when he was playing the overall top defense in the NFL and the Ravens scored 3 points in the game's final 46 minutes - people were saying he was terrible.

Flacco has always been a pretty good QB. Last year, the Ravens happened to play 12 games vs. opponents with defenses in the NFL's Top 10. On the very rare occasions when they played a bad D (Indy, St. Louis, and New England) he put up big numbers.

That being said, I see Flacco making continued improvement this year with the arrival of Jim Caldwell as his QB coach. His play fakes are better, his footwork is markedly better leading to more consistent accuracy, and he also has someone helping him see the game - last year the Ravens fired his QB coach (Jim Zorn) and he clashed during the year with Offensive coordinator Cam Cameron.
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Lol I will never utter those words, the disparity between baltimore and NE defenses was a contributing factor in both of their performances. But every other time they played (except when they didnt have Welker and the TEs, 2009 playoffs i believe) they got convincingly beat even if they score wasnt indicative of that. It was still the best game ive ever seen Flacco play. Rarely get to see the humble pats fan.
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Not to hijack, but this couldn't be more false. Flacco is 1-3 versus the Pat's and none of the 3 losses have been by more than 6. One went to OT and another (last year AFC Champ game) should have gone to OT. The games were all close to the end, so not sure how you can say they got beat "convincingly" every other time.
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I also said the score wasnt indicative. I was politely saying that Flacco played like crap (so did Brady in a few) in those meetings and the game was still close because Lewis and the boys were giving the usual 200%.
Code: 
                                                                 Pass                                      Rk       Player    Age       Date  Lg  Tm  Opp  Result  G  W Day  Cmp Att  Cmp% Yds TD Int  Rate  Y/A  AY/A2    Joe Flacco 25-274 2010-10-17 NFL BAL  NWE L 20-23  6  6 Sun   27  35 77.1% 285  2   0 119.3 8.14  9.293    Joe Flacco 27-006 2012-01-22 NFL BAL  NWE L 20-23 18  0 Sun   22  36 61.1% 306  2   1  95.4 8.50  8.364    Joe Flacco 24-261 2009-10-04 NFL BAL  NWE L 21-27  4  4 Sun   27  47 57.4% 264  2   1  78.7 5.62  5.516    Joe Flacco 24-359 2010-01-10 NFL BAL  NWE W 33-14 17 18 Sun    4  10 40.0%  34  0   1  10.0 3.40 -1.10
I take back my original claim that he played well in the 2009 playoff game. I forgot Ray Rice shredded the pats and Flacco was managing the win.
 
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'cubbie5150 said:
I'm hoping Flacco has taken a big step forward, but I need to see just a bit more to be convinced. This week @ Philly should be a good test. Those of us using him in a true QBBC (Flacco/Luck/Locker in my case) would LOVE to see Flacco become an every week starter, obviously. Til I'm comfortable w/ that, I'm gonna play matchup.
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I agree im looking ahead to this matchup.
 
Maybe Cincy's D will end up pretty bad this year?? Also, I dont have his splits but I think he is typically much better at home.

Im usually not one of those guys that says "take away his long run and...", but that Boldin TD was a drop and shouldve been overturned. If you take away 40yds and a TD, his statline doesnt looke near as good. Then again, he didnt play the entire game.

After last night, Id feel very good if I had him as my backup. I still wouldnt want to be starting him very often at this point though.

 
'Run It Up said:
'Modog814 said:
'Run It Up said:
'The_Man said:
It frustrates me when people say that Flacco's performance in the AFC Championship game was some kind of turning point, that he outdueled Brady. In that game, Flacco was playing the worst pass defense in the NFL in 2011. Of course he should look good (and Brady was playing a top D, so of course it was going to be hard). Just the week before against Houston - when he was playing the overall top defense in the NFL and the Ravens scored 3 points in the game's final 46 minutes - people were saying he was terrible.

Flacco has always been a pretty good QB. Last year, the Ravens happened to play 12 games vs. opponents with defenses in the NFL's Top 10. On the very rare occasions when they played a bad D (Indy, St. Louis, and New England) he put up big numbers.

That being said, I see Flacco making continued improvement this year with the arrival of Jim Caldwell as his QB coach. His play fakes are better, his footwork is markedly better leading to more consistent accuracy, and he also has someone helping him see the game - last year the Ravens fired his QB coach (Jim Zorn) and he clashed during the year with Offensive coordinator Cam Cameron.
Click to expand...
Lol I will never utter those words, the disparity between baltimore and NE defenses was a contributing factor in both of their performances. But every other time they played (except when they didnt have Welker and the TEs, 2009 playoffs i believe) they got convincingly beat even if they score wasnt indicative of that. It was still the best game ive ever seen Flacco play. Rarely get to see the humble pats fan.
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Not to hijack, but this couldn't be more false. Flacco is 1-3 versus the Pat's and none of the 3 losses have been by more than 6. One went to OT and another (last year AFC Champ game) should have gone to OT. The games were all close to the end, so not sure how you can say they got beat "convincingly" every other time.
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I also said the score wasnt indicative. I was politely saying that Flacco played like crap (so did Brady in a few) in those meetings and the game was still close because Lewis and the boys were giving the usual 200%.
Pass Rk Player Age Date Lg Tm Opp Result G W Day Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Int Rate Y/A AY/A2 Joe Flacco 25-274 2010-10-17 NFL BAL NWE L 20-23 6 6 Sun 27 35 77.1% 285 2 0 119.3 8.14 9.293 Joe Flacco 27-006 2012-01-22 NFL BAL NWE L 20-23 18 0 Sun 22 36 61.1% 306 2 1 95.4 8.50 8.364 Joe Flacco 24-261 2009-10-04 NFL BAL NWE L 21-27 4 4 Sun 27 47 57.4% 264 2 1 78.7 5.62 5.516 Joe Flacco 24-359 2010-01-10 NFL BAL NWE W 33-14 17 18 Sun 4 10 40.0% 34 0 1 10.0 3.40 -1.10I take back my original claim that he played well in the 2009 playoff game. I forgot Ray Rice shredded the pats and Flacco was managing the win.
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Those are crappy numbers? :shrug: Outside of the 09 blowout where he didn't need to do anything (10 attempts), they're look pretty solid to me. Game 4 isn't great, but it certainly isn't terrible.

 
'Kenny Powers said:
Maybe Cincy's D will end up pretty bad this year?? Also, I dont have his splits but I think he is typically much better at home.

Im usually not one of those guys that says "take away his long run and...", but that Boldin TD was a drop and shouldve been overturned. If you take away 40yds and a TD, his statline doesnt looke near as good. Then again, he didnt play the entire game.

After last night, Id feel very good if I had him as my backup. I still wouldnt want to be starting him very often at this point though.
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I don't know. I didn't see any clear evidence that the ball hit the ground. Definitely moved a bit, but I couldn't tell if it hit the ground or not. Maybe it was a drop, but I think they made the right call by not overturning it (FTR I would say if they called it the otherway, an incomplete on the field, that they shouldn't have overturned it either).
 
3 things:

1) They are finally taking the training wheels off. I think they've always been fine with letting him game manage behind a strong D and running game. It looks like they are now letting him have the keys, so to speak. That's been predicted before, but it looks like this time its for real.

2) They are running more no huddle. That keeps the D from putting in down-and-distance sub-packages and it wears down the defensive players. So he's facing softer coverage and the defenders get slower as the series extends.

3) There are elements of this offense that are similar to what he ran in college - which presumably plays to his natural strengths. I'm less sold on this one. He played at Delaware. So he shouldn't be a dummy. At this point in his career he should have been able to make the transition. If he needs these spread concepts to succeed, then I see that more as an admission of his limitations. But even if he is limited in that regard, that shouldn't keep us from riding him to loads of fantasy points. Our league scores spread stats the the same as they do pro-style stats.

 
'Modog814 said:
'Run It Up said:
'Modog814 said:
'Run It Up said:
'The_Man said:
It frustrates me when people say that Flacco's performance in the AFC Championship game was some kind of turning point, that he outdueled Brady. In that game, Flacco was playing the worst pass defense in the NFL in 2011. Of course he should look good (and Brady was playing a top D, so of course it was going to be hard). Just the week before against Houston - when he was playing the overall top defense in the NFL and the Ravens scored 3 points in the game's final 46 minutes - people were saying he was terrible.

Flacco has always been a pretty good QB. Last year, the Ravens happened to play 12 games vs. opponents with defenses in the NFL's Top 10. On the very rare occasions when they played a bad D (Indy, St. Louis, and New England) he put up big numbers.

That being said, I see Flacco making continued improvement this year with the arrival of Jim Caldwell as his QB coach. His play fakes are better, his footwork is markedly better leading to more consistent accuracy, and he also has someone helping him see the game - last year the Ravens fired his QB coach (Jim Zorn) and he clashed during the year with Offensive coordinator Cam Cameron.
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Lol I will never utter those words, the disparity between baltimore and NE defenses was a contributing factor in both of their performances. But every other time they played (except when they didnt have Welker and the TEs, 2009 playoffs i believe) they got convincingly beat even if they score wasnt indicative of that. It was still the best game ive ever seen Flacco play. Rarely get to see the humble pats fan.
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Not to hijack, but this couldn't be more false. Flacco is 1-3 versus the Pat's and none of the 3 losses have been by more than 6. One went to OT and another (last year AFC Champ game) should have gone to OT. The games were all close to the end, so not sure how you can say they got beat "convincingly" every other time.
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I also said the score wasnt indicative. I was politely saying that Flacco played like crap (so did Brady in a few) in those meetings and the game was still close because Lewis and the boys were giving the usual 200%.
Pass Rk Player Age Date Lg Tm Opp Result G W Day Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Int Rate Y/A AY/A2 Joe Flacco 25-274 2010-10-17 NFL BAL NWE L 20-23 6 6 Sun 27 35 77.1% 285 2 0 119.3 8.14 9.293 Joe Flacco 27-006 2012-01-22 NFL BAL NWE L 20-23 18 0 Sun 22 36 61.1% 306 2 1 95.4 8.50 8.364 Joe Flacco 24-261 2009-10-04 NFL BAL NWE L 21-27 4 4 Sun 27 47 57.4% 264 2 1 78.7 5.62 5.516 Joe Flacco 24-359 2010-01-10 NFL BAL NWE W 33-14 17 18 Sun 4 10 40.0% 34 0 1 10.0 3.40 -1.10I take back my original claim that he played well in the 2009 playoff game. I forgot Ray Rice shredded the pats and Flacco was managing the win.
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Those are crappy numbers? :shrug: Outside of the 09 blowout where he didn't need to do anything (10 attempts), they're look pretty solid to me. Game 4 isn't great, but it certainly isn't terrible.
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My bias is bleeding through again. But I would most definitely say that 27 for 47 for only 264 2td/1int is indeed terrible. Point taken, I went overboard on the hyperbole, 77% completion / 0 ints is indeed nothing to scoff at.Im trying to figure out why that game seems so much less impressive than last years (statistically worse) playoff performance, where to find time of possession information, I remember Flacco grinding the AFC championship out.

 
It's probably a combination of Joe moving from a super-conservative offense to a more typical NFL offense this year. Coming from a season ticket holder, Joe's only elite quality is his arm. If he continues to improve his footwork, pocket awareness, etc, he could be a solid top 10 real life QB. I don't think anyone in Baltimore thinks he'll ever be as good as the big 3 + Manning. We're hoping for more like Phillip Rivers.

 
'Warhogs said:
I think he and Matt Ryan right now might be the two QB we are looking at that may have a chance to jump up into or near that top tier of QBs. I think what happens is a combination of maturity and a greater understand of their role as an NFL QB along with the team giving them their trust. Eli Manning has taken a step up over the last couple of seasons, and remember when Tom Brady was thought of as a good QB but not a great fantasy player? He finally reached a point that New England put the game in his hands and he has now been elite for several years. I'm not saying Ryan and Flacco are both climbing into elite status this year but they seem to be a couple of guys who are being giving more opportunity to potentially climb into that status.
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To some extent I'd say it's also the maturity of the pass catchers too. He had a lot of young players to deal with last year and it showed at times.This year they're all a year older and wiser. Sometimes that makes all the difference.
 
'Run It Up said:
Im very serious, seemingly since the AFC Championship last year till now Joe Flacco has been a completely different Quarterback. What changed? I very much thought he was done after posting his worst statistical year last year. Is it the possible emergence of Torrey Smith?His weapons havent really changed, the defense hasnt really changed. Was last year a wake up call? Just curious what you guys think caused such a drastic change in his quality of play, which in my opinion before the 2011 season was mediocre and in the 2011 season before the AFC championship was awful. Granted there is plenty of football left to play.
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reality doesn't actually change to fit your perception of it.
 
It's one game this year at home in the opener. He had three throws in the first half that should have been intercepted. Let's wait till 10 games have passed to see if he has turned the corner. The AFC championship game was against a very bad NE defense. This week will be a real good test to see where he is. Philly defense can get after the QB and has a good secondary. Cincy secondary is not very good.

 
'Run It Up said:
Im very serious, seemingly since the AFC Championship last year till now Joe Flacco has been a completely different Quarterback. What changed? I very much thought he was done after posting his worst statistical year last year. Is it the possible emergence of Torrey Smith?His weapons havent really changed, the defense hasnt really changed. Was last year a wake up call? Just curious what you guys think caused such a drastic change in his quality of play, which in my opinion before the 2011 season was mediocre and in the 2011 season before the AFC championship was awful. Granted there is plenty of football left to play.

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Year     Age  Tm Pos No.  G GS   QBrec  Cmp  Att Cmp%   Yds TD TD% Int Int% Lng  Y/A AY/A  Y/C   Y/G  Rate  Sk  Yds NY/A ANY/A Sk% 4QC GWD AV2008      23 BAL  QB   5 16 16  11-5-0  257  428 60.0  2971 14 3.3  12  2.8  70  6.9  6.3 11.6 185.7  80.3  32  276  5.9   5.3 7.0   1   2 112009      24 BAL  QB   5 16 16   9-7-0  315  499 63.1  3613 21 4.2  12  2.4  72  7.2  7.0 11.5 225.8  88.9  36  218  6.3   6.1 6.7   1   2 132010      25 BAL  QB   5 16 16  12-4-0  306  489 62.6  3622 25 5.1  10  2.0  67  7.4  7.5 11.8 226.4  93.6  40  294  6.3   6.4 7.6   2   4 122011      26 BAL  QB   5 16 16  12-4-0  312  542 57.6  3610 20 3.7  12  2.2  74  6.7  6.4 11.6 225.6  80.9  31  203  5.9   5.7 5.4   2   3 122012      27 BAL  QB   5  1  1   1-0-0   21   29 72.4   299  2 6.9   0  0.0  52 10.3 11.7 14.2 299.0 128.4   3   21  8.7   9.9 9.4   0   0   Career                   65 65 45-20-0 1211 1987 60.9 14115 82 4.1  46  2.3  74  7.1  6.9 11.7 217.2  86.6 142 1012  6.2   6.0 6.7   6  11 48
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I'm not sure anything actually changed. Flacco has put up these type of games before.2009-week 1, week 14; 2010-week 3, week 6, week 8; 2011-week 1. If he starts doing it consistently, then I'd agree that something has changed, and I would say that would have to be the Ravens deciding to succeed or fail with Flacco (and Flacco being able to rise to the challenge).
 
'Bayhawks said:
'Run It Up said:
Im very serious, seemingly since the AFC Championship last year till now Joe Flacco has been a completely different Quarterback. What changed? I very much thought he was done after posting his worst statistical year last year. Is it the possible emergence of Torrey Smith?His weapons havent really changed, the defense hasnt really changed. Was last year a wake up call? Just curious what you guys think caused such a drastic change in his quality of play, which in my opinion before the 2011 season was mediocre and in the 2011 season before the AFC championship was awful. Granted there is plenty of football left to play.

Code: 
Year     Age  Tm Pos No.  G GS   QBrec  Cmp  Att Cmp%   Yds TD TD% Int Int% Lng  Y/A AY/A  Y/C   Y/G  Rate  Sk  Yds NY/A ANY/A Sk% 4QC GWD AV2008      23 BAL  QB   5 16 16  11-5-0  257  428 60.0  2971 14 3.3  12  2.8  70  6.9  6.3 11.6 185.7  80.3  32  276  5.9   5.3 7.0   1   2 112009      24 BAL  QB   5 16 16   9-7-0  315  499 63.1  3613 21 4.2  12  2.4  72  7.2  7.0 11.5 225.8  88.9  36  218  6.3   6.1 6.7   1   2 132010      25 BAL  QB   5 16 16  12-4-0  306  489 62.6  3622 25 5.1  10  2.0  67  7.4  7.5 11.8 226.4  93.6  40  294  6.3   6.4 7.6   2   4 122011      26 BAL  QB   5 16 16  12-4-0  312  542 57.6  3610 20 3.7  12  2.2  74  6.7  6.4 11.6 225.6  80.9  31  203  5.9   5.7 5.4   2   3 122012      27 BAL  QB   5  1  1   1-0-0   21   29 72.4   299  2 6.9   0  0.0  52 10.3 11.7 14.2 299.0 128.4   3   21  8.7   9.9 9.4   0   0   Career                   65 65 45-20-0 1211 1987 60.9 14115 82 4.1  46  2.3  74  7.1  6.9 11.7 217.2  86.6 142 1012  6.2   6.0 6.7   6  11 48
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I'm not sure anything actually changed. Flacco has put up these type of games before.2009-week 1, week 14; 2010-week 3, week 6, week 8; 2011-week 1. If he starts doing it consistently, then I'd agree that something has changed, and I would say that would have to be the Ravens deciding to succeed or fail with Flacco (and Flacco being able to rise to the challenge).
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Definitely a possibility I havent ruled out that he is who I thought he was.
 
'The_Man said:
It frustrates me when people say that Flacco's performance in the AFC Championship game was some kind of turning point, that he outdueled Brady. In that game, Flacco was playing the worst pass defense in the NFL in 2011. Of course he should look good (and Brady was playing a top D, so of course it was going to be hard). Just the week before against Houston - when he was playing the overall top defense in the NFL and the Ravens scored 3 points in the game's final 46 minutes - people were saying he was terrible.

Flacco has always been a pretty good QB. Last year, the Ravens happened to play 12 games vs. opponents with defenses in the NFL's Top 10. On the very rare occasions when they played a bad D (Indy, St. Louis, and New England) he put up big numbers.

That being said, I see Flacco making continued improvement this year with the arrival of Jim Caldwell as his QB coach. His play fakes are better, his footwork is markedly better leading to more consistent accuracy, and he also has someone helping him see the game - last year the Ravens fired his QB coach (Jim Zorn) and he clashed during the year with Offensive coordinator Cam Cameron.
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I don't care for defensive rankings that are based mostly on passing yards allowed. New England defense ranked 2nd in the league with 23 interceptions. Indy and my Vikings were tied for last in the league with 8 each. So you are going to have a hard time convincing me that New England had a worse pass defense than those two teams. In terms of QB pressure on Brady and Flacco in the AFC Championship game there was no comparison. Wiford owned Burk and Flacco made plays despite the fact that he had less time to spend in the pocket. I still say the better QB lost in that game.

 
'Donnybrook said:
I still say the better QB lost in that game.
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I definitely agree for that game. That might be why I have Flaccos performance in that game on a pedestal. Brady played so poorly.
 
'Run It Up said:
Im a doubter for sure definitely dont get me wrong Im just curious because there was a thread earlier this month about a staffers ranking of Flacco (that was probably a simple mistake) in which the consensus seemed to be mid tier QB2 - which is well above where I had him this year.
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I like Flacco and always have for high committee play or a low end starter. Maybe it's my scoring rules--which play to long td's--but this statement doesn't work for me. In my primary league from 2008 he's ranked #17, 14, 10, 14--easily mid tier QB2 at Worst.
 
'glumpy said:
'Run It Up said:
Im a doubter for sure definitely dont get me wrong Im just curious because there was a thread earlier this month about a staffers ranking of Flacco (that was probably a simple mistake) in which the consensus seemed to be mid tier QB2 - which is well above where I had him this year.
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I like Flacco and always have for high committee play or a low end starter. Maybe it's my scoring rules--which play to long td's--but this statement doesn't work for me. In my primary league from 2008 he's ranked #17, 14, 10, 14--easily mid tier QB2 at Worst.
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He finished 17th last year in my main league.I was saying I had him projected to have a bad year (ie worst than the previous year), similar to last year where he threw more than he ever had and finished with an awful completion percentage and TD:Int ratio, I expected him to put up similar number of attempts but a lower TD:Int ratio with the no huddle and poor judgement that he had shown in the past.

 
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Gordon, I really appreciate your posts. Articulate and well thought out.

My main disagreement with you centers on you belief (and correct me if I'm wring) that essentially flacco will continue to be what he's been the last 4 years - a slightly above average QB.

I believe maturity, experience, upgraded weapons, and a more aggressive plan will contribute to a step forward. I forecast flacco moving forward as a 7-10 QB vs the 10-20 guy he's been.

 
'GordonGekko said:
'mr roboto said:
You spin a good tale Gordon. Too bad you are speculating just as much as anyone else.
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What's to speculate? Flacco is remarkably consistent. He's in his fifth year of starting. Sorry, by year 5, for as many starts under this kid's belt, what you see is what you get. - Will give you about 3500 yards passing a season- Will give you about 60 percent completion percentage- Will throw you about 20-22 touchdown passes a year- Will throw you about 10-12 picks a year- Will toss the rock about 500 times a season- Will give you one playoff win a year- Gives you little to nothing on the ground besides his passing- Very durable- Will give you something ( exploit a defense, steady play, takes advantage of opportunities) as long as something is given ( stable franchise, QB friendly league, pro passing era, team dedicated to investing in both O and D lines) - Will not give you something ( elevate play of his WRs, extend plays with his legs, progressive improvement year to year, ability to carry team on his back for stretches) as long as nothing is given ( low investment in WRs, run first offense, heavy investment in LB corps cap wise, conservative defense wins philosophy) Can he uptick it a little? Sure, gun it 600-650 times this season. But this is not a team built to pass the ball, it's just a team where it's passing weaknesses are concealed by a pro passing era and QB friendly league. What separates Flacco from the rest, including the elite, is he has good tools but not exceptional tools and he doesn't process the information fast enough to appear as a "reaction" This is why Brees, Brady and Rodgers are considered elite. They process what the defense is doing, it's disguises, what the different defenders are doing, what their tendencies are and make split second adjustments right there on where to be, what to do and how to attack the scheme. All fast enough to appear as " reaction " to the naked eye. Flacco is the Kevin McReynolds of the NFL. Dress up the plate however you like, it's still not steak.
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You realized you just described Brady's first four years with 100 more pass attempts, right? Was Brady "steak-elite" then, or did he improve? Brady: 2001-02 New England 15 264 413 63.9 2843 189.5 6.9 18 12 2002-03 New England 16 373 601 62.1 3764 235.3 6.3 28 14 2003-04 New England 16 317 527 60.2 3620 226.3 6.9 23 12 2004-05 New England 16 288 474 60.8 3692 230.8 7.8 28 14 Flacco:2008-09 Baltimore 16 257 428 60.0 2971 6.9 14 12 2009-10 Baltimore 16 315 499 63.1 3613 7.2 21 12 2010-11 Baltimore 16 306 489 62.6 3622 7.4 25 10 2011-12 Baltimore 16 312 542 57.6 3610 6.7 20 12
 
'mdlane said:
You realized you just described Brady's first four years with 100 more pass attempts, right? Was Brady "steak-elite" then, or did he improve? Brady: 2001-02 New England 15 264 413 63.9 2843 189.5 6.9 18 12 2002-03 New England 16 373 601 62.1 3764 235.3 6.3 28 14 2003-04 New England 16 317 527 60.2 3620 226.3 6.9 23 12 2004-05 New England 16 288 474 60.8 3692 230.8 7.8 28 14 Flacco:2008-09 Baltimore 16 257 428 60.0 2971 6.9 14 12 2009-10 Baltimore 16 315 499 63.1 3613 7.2 21 12 2010-11 Baltimore 16 306 489 62.6 3622 7.4 25 10 2011-12 Baltimore 16 312 542 57.6 3610 6.7 20 12
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17 more TDs and only 8 more ints and one less game from Brady. No big deal, just 80% of an entire flacco season better.
 
'Run It Up said:
'mdlane said:
You realized you just described Brady's first four years with 100 more pass attempts, right? Was Brady "steak-elite" then, or did he improve? Brady: 2001-02 New England 15 264 413 63.9 2843 189.5 6.9 18 12 2002-03 New England 16 373 601 62.1 3764 235.3 6.3 28 14 2003-04 New England 16 317 527 60.2 3620 226.3 6.9 23 12 2004-05 New England 16 288 474 60.8 3692 230.8 7.8 28 14 Flacco:2008-09 Baltimore 16 257 428 60.0 2971 6.9 14 12 2009-10 Baltimore 16 315 499 63.1 3613 7.2 21 12 2010-11 Baltimore 16 306 489 62.6 3622 7.4 25 10 2011-12 Baltimore 16 312 542 57.6 3610 6.7 20 12
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17 more TDs and only 8 more ints and one less game from Brady. No big deal, just 80% of an entire flacco season better.
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I think you've missed the point here. He's not comparing Flacco to Brady, he's saying that at one point Brady looked like "he is what he is" and then all of a sudden became elite.
 
IMO, there are a few reasons this year will likely be his best year as a pro.

1. He's young. He's just now entering his prime, and he's learned a lot in his previous seasons.

2. His targets are young. Both of his TE's and his new #1 WR were rookies last year. Now, they are much more mature and will be able to elevate the passing game with a year of work with Flacco.

3. Flacco has never had anyone that could stretch a defense vertically, until now.

4. Flacco has never really had two legitimate WR's. Lee Evans? 40 year-old Derrick Mason? Come on.... Lee Evans?!

5. Flacco is now on a team that, for the first time, is emphasizing the passing game rather than using it just because they have to.

Finally, he's on a great team with a reliable running game, with a dual-threat running back who does a lot of damage through the air, and a good defense that should cause turnovers and give him some extra opportunities.

His 2010 numbers (3,600 25/10) looks like his floor to me. I think there will be a lot of good fantasy players in Baltimore this year. I think Flacco will put up top 12 QB type of numbers, Ray Rice a top 3 back, Smith a top 15 WR, Boldin probably around 20, and the TE's, tough because there are two, will combine for some large numbers but limit each other's usefulness barring injury.

 
'GordonGekko said:
Elite players can make something out of something nearly all the time and can make something out of nothing half the time. Above average players can make something out of something most of the time and can make something out of nothing a small percentage of the time. Average players can make something out of something at a league replacement level and usually never make something out of nothing unless they have a career type game. Less than average players that haven't washed out yet by the league have convinced someone, some talent evaluator or coach that there is potential to make something ( a league replacement player) out of nothing ( the general current makeup of the player) Joe Flacco is an above average player. Too good to be a reserve. Good enough to start. Not good enough to pull a team on his back and win games for you as a sole difference maker. Will need all the other pieces in place to make you a contender ( i.e. the requirement of something to start to get something back) Flacco is a sunk cost to the Baltimore front office without a groomed replacement. Is it easier to move forward with a QB you know, with the limitations you know, or to move on and hope for a better guy down the road? Seems like this season is built around a franchise trying to convince themselves that Flacco is the QB they need, versus the QB they want, and will try to achieve that by sheer volume. If you gun the ball enough, you will get stats,and if you look at those stats at the end of the season in one chunk, it's easy to assume the player is helping you win and is productive for what you need. Moving to the no huddle gives the QB the advantage to find mismatches and exploit certain defensive packages, however that advantage disappears in the playoffs, when you face much better defenses who are better at making adjustments. Playoff football, you need to rest your defense, you need to control the clock, you need to control the number of possessions the other teams get, esp if they are offensively superior. The Ravens are fortunate that for a long time, they've been in a position to reload versus doing a periodic rebuild, I think it's time to do a full on rebuild to create a true contender. Joe Flacco isn't the girl the Ravens want to marry, Flacco is the girl you marry when you've graduated college and worked for a few years and you think it's time to settle down. This is a case of wrong guy/right time. The Ravens trying to sell Flacco as a true franchise QB is ignoring the fact that he's being set up to be Dave Krieg 2.0
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You really type up a lot of nothing.
 
Some good points here.

I think we also need to put things into perspective a bit. 5 years ago a QB who threw for 3500 yards consistently was considered a winner. Now not so much.

but it's also a team game and the Ravens have something a lot of teams Lack: A running game that is effective.

You are never going to get 4500 yards passing with a top notch run game because the run does a lot of things the pass does not.

the run game kills the clock. So a 15 play, 80 yard drive where you run the ball half the time will kill off double to triple the time off the clock of a 12 play, 80 yard drive where you throw the ball 75% of the time.

the run game (if effective) will eliminate the need to throw in many cases.

So what you need to do is analyze the offense.

I'd say an offense that puts up 1600 yards rushing and 3500 yards passing is superior to an offense that puts up 1200 yards of rushing offense and 4100 yards of passing offense. While the superior passing offense puts up more total yards, the time of possession is going to be inferior. This is because as noted above, you keep the opposing offense off the field much more and kill the clock with a run game.

Can Flacco throw for 4000-4500 yards? its possible.

is it likely? No. Not while the ravens run game remains strong.

in the current system I'd suggest the upside for Flacco is 4100 yards passing, but I fully expect 3700-3900 yards unless Ray Rice gets hurt. if this happens, I'd expect a bigger year as we witnessed with Eli manning when the Giants Run game dropped off last year as a result of the Bradshaw injury.

I have bumped him up a little from last years numbers as I think his young receivers have matured a bit and that will improve his numbers somewhat.

Either way, hes a good starter who could be great, but at the same time the team doesnt demand that he be great and does not often put together a game plan that would allow him to show greatness. Thats not the way the offense was designed. My argument is that you are expecting more from him than his coaches are.

The truth is that he does not lose a lot of games, He is an upper tier QB but not elite. We dont know if he can be elite, as the current system may or may not ever test this in him. This is ok because the offense as a whole is very effective overall.

I'm not a Ravens fan, but Flacco will not be replaced anytime soon. He does a lot of the little things right and performs well in the system that exists there. He is an above average QB who happens to be an average fantasy QB only because of the system that exists there. This will remain the case as long as the run game is effective in Baltimore. You're gonna have to accept it.

 
'Ray_T said:
Some good points here.I think we also need to put things into perspective a bit. 5 years ago a QB who threw for 3500 yards consistently was considered a winner. Now not so much.but it's also a team game and the Ravens have something a lot of teams Lack: A running game that is effective.You are never going to get 4500 yards passing with a top notch run game because the run does a lot of things the pass does not.the run game kills the clock. So a 15 play, 80 yard drive where you run the ball half the time will kill off double to triple the time off the clock of a 12 play, 80 yard drive where you throw the ball 75% of the time.the run game (if effective) will eliminate the need to throw in many cases.So what you need to do is analyze the offense. I'd say an offense that puts up 1600 yards rushing and 3500 yards passing is superior to an offense that puts up 1200 yards of rushing offense and 4100 yards of passing offense. While the superior passing offense puts up more total yards, the time of possession is going to be inferior. This is because as noted above, you keep the opposing offense off the field much more and kill the clock with a run game.Can Flacco throw for 4000-4500 yards? its possible. is it likely? No. Not while the ravens run game remains strong.in the current system I'd suggest the upside for Flacco is 4100 yards passing, but I fully expect 3700-3900 yards unless Ray Rice gets hurt. if this happens, I'd expect a bigger year as we witnessed with Eli manning when the Giants Run game dropped off last year as a result of the Bradshaw injury.I have bumped him up a little from last years numbers as I think his young receivers have matured a bit and that will improve his numbers somewhat.Either way, hes a good starter who could be great, but at the same time the team doesnt demand that he be great and does not often put together a game plan that would allow him to show greatness. Thats not the way the offense was designed. My argument is that you are expecting more from him than his coaches are.The truth is that he does not lose a lot of games, He is an upper tier QB but not elite. We dont know if he can be elite, as the current system may or may not ever test this in him. This is ok because the offense as a whole is very effective overall. I'm not a Ravens fan, but Flacco will not be replaced anytime soon. He does a lot of the little things right and performs well in the system that exists there. He is an above average QB who happens to be an average fantasy QB only because of the system that exists there. This will remain the case as long as the run game is effective in Baltimore. You're gonna have to accept it.
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This is the most convincing argument for of all the recent flacco threads. :goodposting:
 
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'Run It Up said:
'mdlane said:
You realized you just described Brady's first four years with 100 more pass attempts, right? Was Brady "steak-elite" then, or did he improve? Brady: 2001-02 New England 15 264 413 63.9 2843 189.5 6.9 18 12 2002-03 New England 16 373 601 62.1 3764 235.3 6.3 28 14 2003-04 New England 16 317 527 60.2 3620 226.3 6.9 23 12 2004-05 New England 16 288 474 60.8 3692 230.8 7.8 28 14 Flacco:2008-09 Baltimore 16 257 428 60.0 2971 6.9 14 12 2009-10 Baltimore 16 315 499 63.1 3613 7.2 21 12 2010-11 Baltimore 16 306 489 62.6 3622 7.4 25 10 2011-12 Baltimore 16 312 542 57.6 3610 6.7 20 12
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17 more TDs and only 8 more ints and one less game from Brady. No big deal, just 80% of an entire flacco season better.
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The point is, Brady was a static ho hum performer that improved with increased usage, better weapons, and experience to become elite. There is no reason why Flacco cannot do the same particularly if he gets more pass attempts.
 
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