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Big Ben to Brown TD (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Plorfu
- Start date
pizzatyme
Footballguy
You sure? Isn't there some rule where it starts as a pass and is fumbled and recovered by the same player, it is then a passing TD?Obviously, I'm a hopeful Big Ben owner.
Brown scored the TD for sure, BUT not a receiving TD.Big Ben will lose the TD pass.
...Someone has to get credit for the TD. He's the one that recovered it. So....
FantasyTrader
Footballguy
I listened to the refs ruling after review and it was clearly determined that the score was a fumble before Brown crossed the goal line and that Brown scored on a zero yard fumble return. Now whether they ultimately score it that way or continue to credit both Roethlisberger and Brown with a pitch-n-catch 11 yd. TD? I don't know. But the ref clearly stated it was a fumble recovery.
identikit
Footballguy
I suppose each league could be set up differently.But a fumble recovery TD isn't counted the same as a TD reception in the ones I'm in.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
Didn't this already happen once....The Keenan McCardell Rule? http://apps.footballguys.com/04davies_mccardelltd.cfm
Mario Kart
Footballguy
Wait, wait... it was a fumble recovery... the Pittsburgh defense should get the points for it. Right? Right?
apalmer
Footballguy
Different situation where another player had possession. Here, Brown was the only player who ever had possession. What if he was running down the field all alone after the catch, dropped the ball and had it bounce back up to him then continued to the endzone? That wouldn't be a TD reception?
exactly what i was thinking. could be different because this was touched by other players first. i really have no idea.
Utter Chaos
Footballguy
My thought is it should not be a passing touchdown because if there was no fumble then there would not have been a touchdown.
Kind of like hitting a triple in baseball and the ball goes past the third base man and the guy scores. The run counts but he doesn't get credited with a home run.
Kind of like hitting a triple in baseball and the ball goes past the third base man and the guy scores. The run counts but he doesn't get credited with a home run.
Multiple Scores
Footballguy
No way it's a TD for Brown
Utter Chaos
Footballguy
Is that...No way! It's a touchdown for Brown.orThere's no way that's a touchdown for Brown.It's definitely a touchdown for Brown but it should be a fumble return touchdown and not a receiving touchdown because without the fumble, he wouldn't have scored.
The Jerk
Footballguy
Bob Labriola is the editor of "Steelers Digest", which is the official publication of the Pittsburgh Steelers. I've heard Labriola for years on local Pittsburgh radio, as well as a local weekly TV show, and to me at least, he is trustworthy when it comes to information about Steelers player signings, injuries, and other mildly inside information. He's not a hack. However, I'm not sure that he's a rulebook or official scoring guru, either.As I understand the rulebook, there is no chance of it being a TD pass for Ben if it is recovered by anyone else except Brown. However, because Brown recovered the fumble, there is at least a chance that it remains a passing TD. I'm not as good on official scoring rules as I am at on-field rules application, and there are others in the forums more knowledgeable than me when it comes to these kind of rulings.
The Jerk
Footballguy
You may be right in the end that the TD is not considered a receiving TD. However, as I saw the play, Brown would have scored had the ball not been dislodged. I did not see his knee or elbow down prior to him breaking the plane of the goal line, albeit with the ball no longer completely in his possession. Maybe it's just your phrasing, but the way you describe it makes it seem like the ball bounced in from several yards out and Brown would have been down at the 3-yard line or something without the fumble. That's not accurate, at least from my recollection.
Utter Chaos
Footballguy
I just saw the play once on the highlights and I agree with you that it did look like he crossed the plain before the fumble. However, I don't believe the officials blew the whistle so that means the play was still live after the fumble and they didn't signal a touchdown until it was recovered. If the Raiders had recovered I suppose replay could have overturned the ruling.CBSSportline seems to be contradicting themselves. The play by play has the following:
That looks like it's a fumble recovery but the game tracker and the stats indicate that is was a touchdown pass:
Captain Hook
Footballguy
Have all you guys saying it can't be X looked at NFL gamebook?
Roethlisberger 11 yd TD pass to A. Brown
That IS the way it will be scored on site because that is the way NFL has it scored
Roethlisberger 11 yd TD pass to A. Brown
That IS the way it will be scored on site because that is the way NFL has it scored
The Jerk
Footballguy
I'm not sure I worded my earlier post exactly right. What I saw was that Brown was not going to be brought down outside of the end zone. He was twisting his way in and would have broken the goal line prior to his elbow or knee being down had he not been stripped of the ball. If he had truly broken the plane with the ball in possession, then there would have been no fumble officially. It was a good call; the ball came out just inside the 1 yard line.As I said earlier, I have this vague feeling that a recovery by the same player that caught the pass maintains it as a TD pass, but that a recovery by any other offensive player negates the TD pass aspect. I'm trying to find it in the rulebook but so far no luck.I just saw the play once on the highlights and I agree with you that it did look like he crossed the plain before the fumble. However, I don't believe the officials blew the whistle so that means the play was still live after the fumble and they didn't signal a touchdown until it was recovered. If the Raiders had recovered I suppose replay could have overturned the ruling.CBSSportline seems to be contradicting themselves. The play by play has the following:
That looks like it's a fumble recovery but the game tracker and the stats indicate that is was a touchdown pass:
Sea Duck
Footballguy
Gamebooks are unofficial. The official NFL scoring won't be released until Wednesday.
They do change designations after the fact.A few years ago I won on the back of a TD pass from Warner to Boldin being changed to a backward pass, and was designated a rushing TD to Boldin. For a few days it was classified as a passing TD in NFL gamebook.
The Jerk
Footballguy
Exactly.And that's why some of us are trying to find the official NFL rules wording on whether a fumbled pass reception recovered by the pass receiver is considered a passing TD for the QB -- and apparently for some leagues, it also can be differently scored if the TD is a receiving TD vs. a fumble recovery TD.
The Big Guy
Fear the Blitz
No one has an official rule pulled up on this?
Utter Chaos
Footballguy
I don't think there is an official rule. The NFL rule book does not cover how plays get scored. The only official rule is that Pittsburgh gets a touchdown because they recovered the ball in the end zone.
Sea Duck
Footballguy
I looked through the official NFL Rulebook but couldn't find anything. The rulebook does not go into detail about box scores or the difference between "Receiving TDs" and "Fumble Recovery TDs". I bet the NFL has an internal rulebook that discusses that stuff, but it doesn't seem to be available online.
UFGator0587
Footballguy
I definitely think this gets credited as a fumble recovery TD, not a pass TD. And it will end up costing me a win. :(
SYMPHONY X
Footballguy
I am not sure how it will be "officially" scored when all is said and done, but as long as Brown gets credit for a TD, I will hang on for a narrow victory. To me, it seems that it shouldn't be a TD pass for Big Ben, since the ball was fumbled at the 1/2 yard line, and THEN recovered by Brown. It will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.
How it will likely shake down fantasy wise is this:
1. In ppr brown gets the catch and 11 yards of points obviously.
2. In neg fumble leagues (where you get a neg for not just lost fumbles but also fumbles recovered by offense) brown will get that neg, again obviously.
3. This is where it gets tricky, In leagues where the specific item of "offensive fumble recovery for td" is scored brown will get 6. In leagues not containing that scoring category setup he will not get 6. Full warning, this isn't a standard scoring category for most default league setups. I've had to add mine after the fact in my league after league vote years back when it happened and didn't get the td points created to the fumble recoverer scorer. If your league doesn't have that category, brown will have his 6 points removed likely.
4. Big Ben will not get the td pass, just the 11 yards for completion prior to fumble.
As previous poster said, we may here nothing on this till mid week, but it looks to me like it'll surely be changed off experience in years past with this situation.
1. In ppr brown gets the catch and 11 yards of points obviously.
2. In neg fumble leagues (where you get a neg for not just lost fumbles but also fumbles recovered by offense) brown will get that neg, again obviously.
3. This is where it gets tricky, In leagues where the specific item of "offensive fumble recovery for td" is scored brown will get 6. In leagues not containing that scoring category setup he will not get 6. Full warning, this isn't a standard scoring category for most default league setups. I've had to add mine after the fact in my league after league vote years back when it happened and didn't get the td points created to the fumble recoverer scorer. If your league doesn't have that category, brown will have his 6 points removed likely.
4. Big Ben will not get the td pass, just the 11 yards for completion prior to fumble.
As previous poster said, we may here nothing on this till mid week, but it looks to me like it'll surely be changed off experience in years past with this situation.
GregR
Footballguy
Right. What we think of as the NFL rule book doesn't cover how statistics are supposed to be handled. It just covers the rules of the game.
westbrook36
Footballguy
It's a completed pass, fumbled and then recovered in the endzone.
Brown gets credit for: A catch, reception yards, a fumble, and a fumble recovery TD.
Ben gets credit for: A completion, some yards, but no TD.
Brown gets credit for: A catch, reception yards, a fumble, and a fumble recovery TD.
Ben gets credit for: A completion, some yards, but no TD.
crowe1130
Footballguy
This has happened many times in the past and has always been counted as a passing TD. It's similar to when a receiver catches a ball and then laterals to someone else - qb gets credit for all the yardage by both.
Roethlisberger will get credit for 4 passing TDs. Brown won't get a receiving TD, but will get a fumble recovery TD.
Roethlisberger will get credit for 4 passing TDs. Brown won't get a receiving TD, but will get a fumble recovery TD.
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Phenix
Footballguy
So if no one had a TD catch on the play, and it was a fumble, how can Big Ben get a TD pass?Makes zero sense.
yoadrian
Footballguy
How indeed. If the receiver passed the plane its a touchdown, regardless if he fumbled it afterwards. No fumble, no recovery possible. If he did not pass the plane and fumbled it before, recovered it in the end zone, it can't be a receiving TD/passing TD. No way it can be both IMO..
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KellysHeroes
Footballguy
Didn't this happen with McNabb about 5 yrs ago? Didn't the WR (Brown I think) caught the ball and the defender knocked it out of his hands, but the WR actually re-caught the ball in the air and ran in for the TD. Only the WR got credit.
identikit
Footballguy
eta IMO
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Dought Man
Footballguy
You are the opposite of correct
If this is the play you are thinking of: http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=288183
It appears that it was scored a fumble recovery TD and corrected to be a passing TD from McNabb: http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=288853
(Gotta love FootballGuys forums, otherwise this would have been insane to track down!)
That play seemed different, though. Brown caught the ball, was hit, and then there was question of whether or not the hit forced the ball out or if he lateraled it to Buck. Either way, Buck caught it before it hit the ground and took it for a TD.
Regarding this topic, Brown clearly fumbled the ball before crossing the goal line (IMO), then recovered it himself in the endzone. I think they either need to subtract the passing TD from Big Ben or subtract the fumble from Antonio. The way it stands now doesn't make sense. My gut tells me they will lean towards subtracting the fumble and just let the passing TD slide.
So would Big Ben have gotten credit for the td if Mike Wallace would have recovered the fumble? I'm thinking that the stat line would be Ben to Brown for the yards and a fumble recovery by Wallace with a td credited to Wallace and no passing td for Big Ben since he didn't pass it to Wallace. So why would Big Ben get credit for the pass td to Brown? It's the same situation, but Brown just happened to recover the fumble.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
Laterals are different. When there is a lateral, the original "type of play" continues. If you lateral after a reception, then it remains a reception. If you lateral after a rush, then it remains a rush.But once a player fumbles, then the "type of play" changes. And it never goes back.I wonder what people would be saying if Mike Wallace had recovered Brown's fumble. Would they still be calling for Roethlisberger to get a TD pass?
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
all hell would have broke lose on this play had it happened at a different point in the game.....think the NFL has a rule about a ball being fumbled forward in the last 2 or 5 minutes or something.....
