[quote name='The Tick' post='5697454' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:42 PM'][quote name='RKMoney' post='5697369' date='Oct 10 2006, 04:29 PM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697313' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:20 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697302' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:17 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697285' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:13 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697269' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:11 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697255' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:09 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697236' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:06 AM']
[quote name='IvanKaramazov' post='5697230' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:05 PM']
[quote name='Disco Stu' post='5697145' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:54 PM']
Calculus is a good example of something that shouldn't be brought home. We did most/all of our calculus work in class, helping each other, with the teacher closely supervising and helping when needed.

Bring calculus home and the vast majority of students are on their own. Most parents simply aren't capable of helping.[/quote]

I disagree 100% with this. Math (and particularly higher math) is definitely an area where I think homework would be quite helpful. Students learn from wrestling with problems on their own and/or drilling on basic mechanics.

That's how I learned calculus, and I'm sure I'm not alone on that. Profs are great for explaining the theory/intuition behind mathematical concepts, but its really up to the student to get the mechanics down on their own.
[/quote]

But why make student's do homework? What if someone was an ace at calculus? Does that mean they need to waste their time doing it?
[/quote]It is difficult to set different standards for each students in a class. Would you rather other students receive less education because others are superior in a subject?
[/quote]

That's why you should make it voluntary. If you need additonal help then it's there, if not then no need to waste your time. Teach student's to be responsible and accountability.
[/quote]

That's a brilliant plan. I guess it's a good way to weed out the self-starters from the future ditch diggers. Heaven forbid we wouldn't want someone to learn they can achieve more if they actually work hard.
[/quote]
[/quote]How exactly? By making homework voluntary? Why not make X-Box an elective while we're at it?
[/quote]

Responsibility --> Student's who need HW will ask for it and then take it home and do it themselves. It's up to them if they need more work on a particular subject. Someone can drop out and go to war but not responsible enough to know if they need more HW or not?

Accountability ---> need more help in a subject but skipped getting HW and as a result got a bad grade on the test? You should be held accountable for your actions, just like in life.
[/quote]

I really disagree with your argument, but those are two of my favortie words in the english language. There is not enough of either taught to childeren, but I don't think homework as optional is the way to do it.
[/quote]

You may be right but I haven't heard of one valid reason why mandatory HW is needed or necessary. If a student needs additional help or a book report is assigned then obviously you are going to have to do HW but if your strong point is in Math for example and need additional help in the other 5 classes, why should I be forced to waste an hour of what little time I have that night on Math when I need to do more work in the other classes?

By making HW mandatory you are teaching the ones who "know it already" about responsibility and accountibility. Doesn't that make you happy? After all should I not write a report for work because I know the information, or I know my client/boss knows the information? Of course not that would be irresponsible.

So everyone here who learned calc in HS only ever watched a teacher do problems on the board? If that's the case, IMO it's a teaching method problem. The kids should be doing the problems in school, with competent supervision available. I'm guessing that if the kid goes home insecure in the skills and tries (then fails) to do the work at home, he hasn't learned a thing.

Also, I think the supposition that getting rid of crap homework automatically transfers into additional video game time and that homework = intellectual pursuits is flawed logic. Well rounded kids do sports, chores, scouts, dance, lots of things. All those things compete for the family's time and each have their place in helping a child to become a successful adult.

To me, it's more about assigning thoughtful and purposeful work that adds to the educational experience. And it's a very rare occurance.

Because you cannot establish different curriculum for the students who understand a subject and those that do not.

I like seeing the homework come home. I'm not talking about busy work but just something from each class. You can see how they're doing and if they're struggling.

I also like the teachers that give out a packet at the beginning of the week and have it due by Friday. This is good for those kids in sports and other extra curricular activities.

Your analogy isn't a good one. Your boss wants you to write a report that will benefit others in the company or benefit your boss (boss wants you to write up a report after you met with clients is a valid reason why you should do the report) you work for but how would say you, a master in Algebra, help you by doing an hours worth of HW while instead you could spend it on one of your other subjects that you are weak at? HW helps noone. It doesn't help the teacher, it doesn't help you or anyone else if the HW only wastes your time an hurts you in the other subjects you need help in.

You learn complex subjects by working with peers and/or mentors. Struggling through it on your own is a waste of time (unless it comes natural).

How can a parent know though if HW is busy work or not.

I don't see how a student bringing HW home can show to the parent's how they are doijng and if they are stuggling.

I think a lot of parent's enjoy HW because they then think that their child is learning something which isn't always the case. That should not be a reason to assign HW so the parent's can feel better.

While the curriculum cannot be written differently, any curriculum that doesn't allow for students working at various levels is poorly crafted, IMO. Teachers need to be able to properly individualize learning for their students. Smart students shouldn't have to suffer through boring drill work but get more challenging work, while struggling students need to be given assignments that they actually have some hope of mastering.

You check their work. If they get things wrong on the assignment then they need help. Sometimes it's just a little thing, sometimes it's more. If they breeze through it, then most likely their doing ok in that subject.

Sure you can.

You are a teacher, you teach as you normally do during the class. Before class is up, you assign HW if they need to study it more. If the student does it and returns it, then as a teacher, you can check it over and grade it (grade doesn't count obviously). If a student doesn't do the HW then that's up to them.

If a student fails a test and doesn't do any HW then this can be expressed to his/her parents. Even as punishment, they must THEN do all HW suggestions until next test.

Or, you could make HW as a bonus. That way for student's who MUST do HW in other classes either because it's a book report or because they really need added help, it's up to them. They can skip it since they have more imporant issues or do it if they want to get a bonus grade.

You check their work and they don't get anything wrong doesn't mean they are doing well in school or not. Also, you won't even know if that assignment is actually HW or not. Finally, your child could simply say there's no HW.


When I went to HS, sometimes I had HW in 5 or 6 different classes. I didn't expect my parents to then look over it and grade it to see if I was doing well or not. It was up to me and I wanted to do well in school because I wanted to go to college. I think more kids were like this and the ones that weren't HW didn't help them if they didn't want to do it.

I think it boils down to laziness which isn't a good thing to teach students. I excelled in certain classes and hated busy work HW because there were classes where I sucked and needed that time to do my HW. Instead, I felt like I rushed through the stuff I already knew then was not 100% for the stuff I needed more work on. I am sure many kids were like this.

How do you know this? Plenty of office work is unnecessary and or redundant but it is also my responsibility and I am accountable for it. Homework at least has a benefit for some if not all.

Great thought now tell me how to put it into action in a public school where each teacher has six classes of 30 students?

It gives you an idea of how they're doing. If I am unsure as to whether or not there should be homework coming home, I can ask the teacher.

I'm sorry you don't like my answers RK but that's how I feel about the kids having homework. I've seen stuff that comes home and looks pointless and I've seen stuff that looks productive.

My daughter is in 5th grade and I do look at her homework before she turns it in. Then again, I don't check the homework that my son in HS has. His progress report showed that he's doing well so I trust him when he says he's done his homework.

To whom do I assign my homework? 75% of my 180 students?

Again you are suggesting a voluntary HW system or even a HW as punishment system, neither of these is a good option.

HW is one thing extra credit assignments are something else entirely.

Look I understand that each student excels in different subjects, unfortunately the system is set so that these students must take courses with other students with varying levels of competency in the subject. And I have not seen a suggestion for how to compensate for these differences. As I have stated multiple times voluntary HW is not a viable option it hurts more than it helps.

I also think you are only looking at the side of the students who are proficient and ignoring the teachers responsibility to teach all their students.

Example? I've given plenty as to why HW shouldn't be mandatory.

HW CAN be beneficial depending on the context, it shouldn't though hurt you because you need to do it while not focusing on HW that you need to do.

The same as you do now. It's not mandatory so simply assign as you normally do but just don't make it mandatory.

If you excel or don't NEED the extra help in English, it absolutely makes ZERO sense to force them to do mindless HW when they most likely have HW in many other classes that they need to focus on that night. By making HW voluntary, they can focus on the subjects that they need help in.

If you know long division and are given 100 long divison problems to do that night, how does it remotely help you? In fact, it can actually hurt you if you need to study for a test and/or do HW in a subject that you are struggling in.

Not saying that I like or dislike your answers Mrs. BSR it's just that I don't see how bringing home HW can indicate how well or bad your kids are doing.

As for what you see as pointless or not, how do you really know? If it's because your kids tell you they know it backwards and forwards well they can say the same thing about any other subject.

I understand that in 5th grade HW isn't the same as if someone is in HS and I never said HW isn't good, I just think when teacher's assign HW across the board and make it mandatory, it can hurt students as much as help them.

as a soon-to-be assistant professor in materials science, here's what my plan of action is:

"homework" counts towards 50% of their final grade.
a large portion of this "homework" is the requirement that students take notes of all reading assignments in the text and scholarly journal articles that i would provide for them. student notes would need to be a reflection of the students understanding of the content, rather than copying down verbatim. i also plan on requiring these to be hand-written and completely LEGIBLE.

this forces a few things:
-students tend to retain information better after they have written it down, rather than simply "thinking about it" and more than plug-and-chug types of example questions.
-students are forced to learn how to write legibly. you wouldn't believe how bad the penmanship of the average student is nowadays. someone needs to teach them the value of easy-to-read handwriting.

I would be the subjective judge over whether or not students have made an honest reflection in their note-taking. I may have a set of concept-based questions that the student would need to answer as they go through the text in order to ensure that they are getting what they need out of it. I'll certainly be forcing nearly everyone to re-submit at least a few assignments.


you wouldn't believe how many people are graduated with a bachelor's degree who got by simply through memorization, without any applicable knowledge being gained. it's really pathetic and makes me wonder if it's a drain on our society to keep sending a larger portion of kids to college when they would be perfectly capable of functioning in their jobs straight out of high school. (or, would be, if high school education were up to par!)

[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697806' date='Oct 11 2006, 01:41 AM'][quote name='Chaka' post='5697725' date='Oct 10 2006, 04:24 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697641' date='Oct 11 2006, 01:07 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697573' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:57 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697481' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:45 AM']
[quote name='The Tick' post='5697454' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:42 PM']

I really disagree with your argument, but those are two of my favortie words in the english language. There is not enough of either taught to childeren, but I don't think homework as optional is the way to do it.[/quote]

You may be right but I haven't heard of one valid reason why mandatory HW is needed or necessary. If a student needs additional help or a book report is assigned then obviously you are going to have to do HW but if your strong point is in Math for example and need additional help in the other 5 classes, why should I be forced to waste an hour of what little time I have that night on Math when I need to do more work in the other classes?
[/quote]Because you cannot establish different curriculum for the students who understand a subject and those that do not.
[/quote]

Sure you can.

You are a teacher, you teach as you normally do during the class. Before class is up, you assign HW if they need to study it more. If the student does it and returns it, then as a teacher, you can check it over and grade it (grade doesn't count obviously). If a student doesn't do the HW then that's up to them.

If a student fails a test and doesn't do any HW then this can be expressed to his/her parents. Even as punishment, they must THEN do all HW suggestions until next test.

Or, you could make HW as a bonus. That way for student's who MUST do HW in other classes either because it's a book report or because they really need added help, it's up to them. They can skip it since they have more imporant issues or do it if they want to get a bonus grade.
[/quote]To whom do I assign my homework? 75% of my 180 students?

Again you are suggesting a voluntary HW system or even a HW as punishment system, neither of these is a good option.

HW is one thing extra credit assignments are something else entirely.

Look I understand that each student excels in different subjects, unfortunately the system is set so that these students must take courses with other students with varying levels of competency in the subject. And I have not seen a suggestion for how to compensate for these differences. As I have stated multiple times voluntary HW is not a viable option it hurts more than it helps.

I also think you are only looking at the side of the students who are proficient and ignoring the teachers responsibility to teach all their students.
[/quote]

The same as you do now. It's not mandatory so simply assign as you normally do but just don't make it mandatory.

If you excel or don't NEED the extra help in English, it absolutely makes ZERO sense to force them to do mindless HW when they most likely have HW in many other classes that they need to focus on that night. By making HW voluntary, they can focus on the subjects that they need help in.

If you know long division and are given 100 long divison problems to do that night, how does it remotely help you? In fact, it can actually hurt you if you need to study for a test and/or do HW in a subject that you are struggling in.
[/quote]The children who need the help are not going to seek it bro and you are blind if think they are going to, and even the ones who would are probably the ones who need it the least. It does not teach them responsibility it teaches them that they have no responsibility.

Sorry but classes cannot be catered to the individual.

[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697788' date='Oct 11 2006, 01:37 AM'][quote name='Chaka' post='5697689' date='Oct 10 2006, 04:16 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697593' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:59 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697526' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:52 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697432' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:39 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697397' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:32 PM']This is the operative phrase in this paragraph.

By making it voluntary you guarantee the underachievers will continue to underachieve (a process that typically begins in the home), by making it mandatory and establishing consequences for their actions (failing grades) you teach them about accountability and responsibility and maybe you reach a few of the underachievers and get them to change their habits. Some children will always underachieve, or achieve at a lower level if you prefer, but some simply haven't been taught any other way.[/quote]

I disagree but even if I agreed, so the people who know it already should be punished? People who underachieve still do so with HW assigned. They either skip it or cheat and copy off someone else.


I just remember getting some bad grades in HW assignments not because I didn't know how to do it but because I had not only practice (sports) after class and then focused on HW in classes where I needed help. So my choice at a certain point later at night was to get decent amount of sleep or simply skip it. When I skiped it I got a bad mark on the HW which is lame.
[/quote]By making HW mandatory you are teaching the ones who "know it already" about responsibility and accountibility. Doesn't that make you happy? After all should I not write a report for work because I know the information, or I know my client/boss knows the information? Of course not that would be irresponsible.
[/quote]

Your analogy isn't a good one. Your boss wants you to write a report that will benefit others in the company or benefit your boss (boss wants you to write up a report after you met with clients is a valid reason why you should do the report) you work for but how would say you, a master in Algebra, help you by doing an hours worth of HW while instead you could spend it on one of your other subjects that you are weak at? HW helps noone. It doesn't help the teacher, it doesn't help you or anyone else if the HW only wastes your time an hurts you in the other subjects you need help in.
[/quote]How do you know this? Plenty of office work is unnecessary and or redundant but it is also my responsibility and I am accountable for it. Homework at least has a benefit for some if not all.
[/quote]

Example? I've given plenty as to why HW shouldn't be mandatory.

HW CAN be beneficial depending on the context, it shouldn't though hurt you because you need to do it while not focusing on HW that you need to do.
[/quote]Example of redundant or unnecessary office work? Are you kidding me?

I have given plenty of examples of why HW should not be voluntary.

And here we are.

Well, as a current assistant professor, this just seems goofy on several levels. Also, if you are in a public college, your plan won't work- but more on that later. How can you ##### about students getting by on memorization, when students are basically a lock for passing your class if they take good notes with nice penmanship? Please. Feel free to join the 21st century. Students can print anything on a computer. Forcing them to print legibly has little to do with contemporary life or materials science. Many students come to class with laptops. You are clearly one of those new professors on a power trip.

Now as to why your plan will need to be rethought: there is this little thing you don't seem familiar with called the americans with disabilities act. Many students are eligible for note takers. In my larger art history sections, I always have always had several people from student services who are note takers for those with disabilities. What do you do there? What is your reasonable accomodation?

I can see both sides on this one. I don't think doing away with it is the answer, but the ridiculous amounts need to be curbed somehow. My little sister got way excessive amounts in middle school. She also played volleyball and basketball, so she'd get home shortly after 5 pm when practice was done. She'd shower and eat so that means she'd start her homework sometime around 6:30 at the latest. Now she's a straight A student, but it wasn't uncommon for her to be up doing homework between 11pm and midnight. That's just insane, especially since the process just kept getting repeated, and it was freakin mid-school.

What's the solution I don't know, maybe have specific days a subject can assign homework so you don't get 6 or 7 classes all piling a ton of stuff on you that all has to be completed in one evening. It's just ridiculous when I see kids carrying a backpack that is 1/3 their weight because of all the text books they end up lugging home.

Here are the rules at the school that I teach at:

1) Homework HAS to be given everyday in every subject except for on Friday.

2) No homework CAN be given on Friday.

3) No tests on Mondays.

The way I work around this is to give the students time in class to get their work done. This means that those students that do the work in that give time period should not have homework in my classes besides the studying for tests. I expect the students to do a lot of work but I do not expect them to have to work on it at home too much. Almost every student is in some sport whether it be football, cross country, volleyball, etc. so to expect them to go to practice till 5:30, come home and eat and then do homework till bedtime is assinine in my opinion.

What's your subject? Must be middle school or higher since you're responsible for so many kids.

a) what makes you think that homework is graded on a pass/fail basis? it counts towards half of a final grade, but isn't all-or-nothing. and, certainly, if a student gets a full 50% on their homework portion of the final grade, then they're a "lock" to pass. why? because they've demonstrated that they have reflected on the material throughout the entire course. that's the whole point, isn't it? doesn't seem like memorization to me. i don't want to train students how to look for patterns in contrived problems, which is (unfortunately) exactly how many courses are structured. students need to demonstrate how well they can apply that knowledge, which is where the other half of their grade lies. i'm a firm believer that putting forth the minimum effort to pass the course should net about a C+/B- type grade. the burden of earning the remainder of a higher grade is on the students to perform well on examinations.

b) with regards to students with disabilities, i'm sure a reasonable accomodation would be made on a case-by-case basis.

and please stop with the power trip nonsense. i'm trying to teach the students how to learn. the only way to do that in this growing and varied field of study is to critically review texts and journal articles/review papers. by requiring students to practice this skill on their own texts, they become better prepared to contribute as researchers or administrators.

AIU, I think we're talking apples vs. oranges between kids in grade school and college students. College students are far more responsible for their own learning because they're ADULTS and should be treated as such. However, as the parent of a child with a serious writing problem there's no way you should be requiring this stuff to be handwritten. If your goal is to force them to become more 'professional' wouldn't you want it typed? Keep your eyes on the prize: yours is not a penmanship class and your students have taken years to develop their chicken scratch. Make them do it on the computer.

[quote name='Chaka' post='5697914' date='Oct 10 2006, 05:03 PM'][quote name='RKMoney' post='5697806' date='Oct 11 2006, 01:41 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697725' date='Oct 10 2006, 04:24 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697641' date='Oct 11 2006, 01:07 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697573' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:57 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697481' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:45 AM']
[quote name='The Tick' post='5697454' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:42 PM']

I really disagree with your argument, but those are two of my favortie words in the english language. There is not enough of either taught to childeren, but I don't think homework as optional is the way to do it.[/quote]

You may be right but I haven't heard of one valid reason why mandatory HW is needed or necessary. If a student needs additional help or a book report is assigned then obviously you are going to have to do HW but if your strong point is in Math for example and need additional help in the other 5 classes, why should I be forced to waste an hour of what little time I have that night on Math when I need to do more work in the other classes?
[/quote]Because you cannot establish different curriculum for the students who understand a subject and those that do not.
[/quote]

Sure you can.

You are a teacher, you teach as you normally do during the class. Before class is up, you assign HW if they need to study it more. If the student does it and returns it, then as a teacher, you can check it over and grade it (grade doesn't count obviously). If a student doesn't do the HW then that's up to them.

If a student fails a test and doesn't do any HW then this can be expressed to his/her parents. Even as punishment, they must THEN do all HW suggestions until next test.

Or, you could make HW as a bonus. That way for student's who MUST do HW in other classes either because it's a book report or because they really need added help, it's up to them. They can skip it since they have more imporant issues or do it if they want to get a bonus grade.
[/quote]To whom do I assign my homework? 75% of my 180 students?

Again you are suggesting a voluntary HW system or even a HW as punishment system, neither of these is a good option.

HW is one thing extra credit assignments are something else entirely.

Look I understand that each student excels in different subjects, unfortunately the system is set so that these students must take courses with other students with varying levels of competency in the subject. And I have not seen a suggestion for how to compensate for these differences. As I have stated multiple times voluntary HW is not a viable option it hurts more than it helps.

I also think you are only looking at the side of the students who are proficient and ignoring the teachers responsibility to teach all their students.
[/quote]

The same as you do now. It's not mandatory so simply assign as you normally do but just don't make it mandatory.

If you excel or don't NEED the extra help in English, it absolutely makes ZERO sense to force them to do mindless HW when they most likely have HW in many other classes that they need to focus on that night. By making HW voluntary, they can focus on the subjects that they need help in.

If you know long division and are given 100 long divison problems to do that night, how does it remotely help you? In fact, it can actually hurt you if you need to study for a test and/or do HW in a subject that you are struggling in.
[/quote]The children who need the help are not going to seek it bro and you are blind if think they are going to, and even the ones who would are probably the ones who need it the least. It does not teach them responsibility it teaches them that they have no responsibility.

Sorry but classes cannot be catered to the individual.
[/quote]

Stay on topic now.

That isn't true. The children who don't want to learn won't regardless if you give them HW to do or not. They'll either not do it or copy it from someone else.

Nice, does that mean you will only get 50% pay as well? Seems fair.

If you wrote that this was you intention in your first post, I wouldn't have written that. Homework is 50% of my grade on most of my syllabi and all of my studio classes. I am a big believer in journals and critical thinking. I have collaboratively taught classes on critical thinking. None of those things are bad ideas or imply a power trip. However, you were the one that wrote about "forcing" them to hand-write notes and resubmit assignments, and you were the one who included the boxing smiley.

[quote name='Chaka' post='5697922' date='Oct 10 2006, 05:05 PM'][quote name='RKMoney' post='5697788' date='Oct 11 2006, 01:37 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697689' date='Oct 10 2006, 04:16 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697593' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:59 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697526' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:52 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697432' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:39 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697397' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:32 PM']This is the operative phrase in this paragraph.

By making it voluntary you guarantee the underachievers will continue to underachieve (a process that typically begins in the home), by making it mandatory and establishing consequences for their actions (failing grades) you teach them about accountability and responsibility and maybe you reach a few of the underachievers and get them to change their habits. Some children will always underachieve, or achieve at a lower level if you prefer, but some simply haven't been taught any other way.[/quote]

I disagree but even if I agreed, so the people who know it already should be punished? People who underachieve still do so with HW assigned. They either skip it or cheat and copy off someone else.


I just remember getting some bad grades in HW assignments not because I didn't know how to do it but because I had not only practice (sports) after class and then focused on HW in classes where I needed help. So my choice at a certain point later at night was to get decent amount of sleep or simply skip it. When I skiped it I got a bad mark on the HW which is lame.
[/quote]By making HW mandatory you are teaching the ones who "know it already" about responsibility and accountibility. Doesn't that make you happy? After all should I not write a report for work because I know the information, or I know my client/boss knows the information? Of course not that would be irresponsible.
[/quote]

Your analogy isn't a good one. Your boss wants you to write a report that will benefit others in the company or benefit your boss (boss wants you to write up a report after you met with clients is a valid reason why you should do the report) you work for but how would say you, a master in Algebra, help you by doing an hours worth of HW while instead you could spend it on one of your other subjects that you are weak at? HW helps noone. It doesn't help the teacher, it doesn't help you or anyone else if the HW only wastes your time an hurts you in the other subjects you need help in.
[/quote]How do you know this? Plenty of office work is unnecessary and or redundant but it is also my responsibility and I am accountable for it. Homework at least has a benefit for some if not all.
[/quote]

Example? I've given plenty as to why HW shouldn't be mandatory.

HW CAN be beneficial depending on the context, it shouldn't though hurt you because you need to do it while not focusing on HW that you need to do.
[/quote]Example of redundant or unnecessary office work? Are you kidding me?

I have given plenty of examples of why HW should not be voluntary.

And here we are.
[/quote]

No no, an example of unnecessary and or redundant office work. Doesn't matter, again, work environment a and acedemic enviornment can't really be compared as I told you earlier. I think you are comparing apples to oranges.

Boss wanting you to do a report and you think it's unnecessary is not even remotely the same as a teacher who gives out a HW assignment to do 100 long division problems when you are the math ace of the class and you have 4 other classes where you need to concentrate on that HW for the evening.

I wish more teachers thought like this, unfortunately, they don't. Perhaps it's ego (The class I teach is the MOST important out of all and sports are completely a waste of time) or as simply as not understanding that a student ALSO takes up to 5 - 7 other courses and there's a possibility that they may have HW in those classes and having a life outside of school is very important. I can't imagine if I grew up and was not able to play sports, help my dad work on stuff around the yard, hang out with my brother, etc. That's more important than many HW assignments I had to do that simply didn't teach me anything.

This is what I've been saying since seventh grade. I'm glad others are finally catching on.

[quote name='Serenity Now' post='5698580' date='Oct 11 2006, 04:19 AM'][quote name='Chaka' post='5697695' date='Oct 10 2006, 06:17 PM']
[quote name='Serenity Now' post='5697623' date='Oct 11 2006, 01:03 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697573' date='Oct 10 2006, 05:57 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697481' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:45 AM']
[quote name='The Tick' post='5697454' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:42 PM']

I really disagree with your argument, but those are two of my favortie words in the english language. There is not enough of either taught to childeren, but I don't think homework as optional is the way to do it.[/quote]

You may be right but I haven't heard of one valid reason why mandatory HW is needed or necessary. If a student needs additional help or a book report is assigned then obviously you are going to have to do HW but if your strong point is in Math for example and need additional help in the other 5 classes, why should I be forced to waste an hour of what little time I have that night on Math when I need to do more work in the other classes?
[/quote]Because you cannot establish different curriculum for the students who understand a subject and those that do not.
[/quote]
While the curriculum cannot be written differently, any curriculum that doesn't allow for students working at various levels is poorly crafted, IMO. Teachers need to be able to properly individualize learning for their students. Smart students shouldn't have to suffer through boring drill work but get more challenging work, while struggling students need to be given assignments that they actually have some hope of mastering.
[/quote]Great thought now tell me how to put it into action in a public school where each teacher has six classes of 30 students?
[/quote]
What's your subject? Must be middle school or higher since you're responsible for so many kids.
[/quote]I am not a teacher, but if I were I would want to teach...

...DANCE!!!

I like reading RKMoney's or is it RKade's responses because they make me but then they make me but then I some more, oll.

[quote name='Chaka' post='5698682' date='Oct 10 2006, 07:40 PM'][quote name='Serenity Now' post='5698580' date='Oct 11 2006, 04:19 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697695' date='Oct 10 2006, 06:17 PM']
[quote name='Serenity Now' post='5697623' date='Oct 11 2006, 01:03 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697573' date='Oct 10 2006, 05:57 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697481' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:45 AM']
[quote name='The Tick' post='5697454' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:42 PM']

I really disagree with your argument, but those are two of my favortie words in the english language. There is not enough of either taught to childeren, but I don't think homework as optional is the way to do it.[/quote]

You may be right but I haven't heard of one valid reason why mandatory HW is needed or necessary. If a student needs additional help or a book report is assigned then obviously you are going to have to do HW but if your strong point is in Math for example and need additional help in the other 5 classes, why should I be forced to waste an hour of what little time I have that night on Math when I need to do more work in the other classes?
[/quote]Because you cannot establish different curriculum for the students who understand a subject and those that do not.
[/quote]
While the curriculum cannot be written differently, any curriculum that doesn't allow for students working at various levels is poorly crafted, IMO. Teachers need to be able to properly individualize learning for their students. Smart students shouldn't have to suffer through boring drill work but get more challenging work, while struggling students need to be given assignments that they actually have some hope of mastering.
[/quote]Great thought now tell me how to put it into action in a public school where each teacher has six classes of 30 students?
[/quote]
What's your subject? Must be middle school or higher since you're responsible for so many kids.
[/quote]I am not a teacher, but if I were I would want to teach...

...DANCE!!!
[/quote]

Do you LIVE on these boards? Seems like whenever I come back and answer *pop* you reply within 5 minutes!

Why do you keep calling me this? Is this an inside joke?

Ah, well I do work in a public school setting. The answer is small groups within the classroom and assignments that can be ratcheted up or down accordingly. Communication with the parents so you know how much time the student is taking to do the assignments. If you only intended the assignment would take 20 minutes but it takes Sally 10, great for her. But what about Joe who needs an hour to do the work? You need to know your students and what they can handle.

Most teachers don't have to deal with numbers that high until at least middle school. In elementary, there's no reason a teacher wouldn't really know each student well enough to know what's appropriate.

[quote name='RKMoney' post='5698622' date='Oct 11 2006, 04:27 AM'][quote name='Chaka' post='5697914' date='Oct 10 2006, 05:03 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697806' date='Oct 11 2006, 01:41 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697725' date='Oct 10 2006, 04:24 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697641' date='Oct 11 2006, 01:07 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697573' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:57 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697481' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:45 AM']
[quote name='The Tick' post='5697454' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:42 PM']

I really disagree with your argument, but those are two of my favortie words in the english language. There is not enough of either taught to childeren, but I don't think homework as optional is the way to do it.[/quote]

You may be right but I haven't heard of one valid reason why mandatory HW is needed or necessary. If a student needs additional help or a book report is assigned then obviously you are going to have to do HW but if your strong point is in Math for example and need additional help in the other 5 classes, why should I be forced to waste an hour of what little time I have that night on Math when I need to do more work in the other classes?
[/quote]Because you cannot establish different curriculum for the students who understand a subject and those that do not.
[/quote]

Sure you can.

You are a teacher, you teach as you normally do during the class. Before class is up, you assign HW if they need to study it more. If the student does it and returns it, then as a teacher, you can check it over and grade it (grade doesn't count obviously). If a student doesn't do the HW then that's up to them.

If a student fails a test and doesn't do any HW then this can be expressed to his/her parents. Even as punishment, they must THEN do all HW suggestions until next test.

Or, you could make HW as a bonus. That way for student's who MUST do HW in other classes either because it's a book report or because they really need added help, it's up to them. They can skip it since they have more imporant issues or do it if they want to get a bonus grade.
[/quote]To whom do I assign my homework? 75% of my 180 students?

Again you are suggesting a voluntary HW system or even a HW as punishment system, neither of these is a good option.

HW is one thing extra credit assignments are something else entirely.

Look I understand that each student excels in different subjects, unfortunately the system is set so that these students must take courses with other students with varying levels of competency in the subject. And I have not seen a suggestion for how to compensate for these differences. As I have stated multiple times voluntary HW is not a viable option it hurts more than it helps.

I also think you are only looking at the side of the students who are proficient and ignoring the teachers responsibility to teach all their students.
[/quote]

The same as you do now. It's not mandatory so simply assign as you normally do but just don't make it mandatory.

If you excel or don't NEED the extra help in English, it absolutely makes ZERO sense to force them to do mindless HW when they most likely have HW in many other classes that they need to focus on that night. By making HW voluntary, they can focus on the subjects that they need help in.

If you know long division and are given 100 long divison problems to do that night, how does it remotely help you? In fact, it can actually hurt you if you need to study for a test and/or do HW in a subject that you are struggling in.
[/quote]The children who need the help are not going to seek it bro and you are blind if think they are going to, and even the ones who would are probably the ones who need it the least. It does not teach them responsibility it teaches them that they have no responsibility.

Sorry but classes cannot be catered to the individual.
[/quote]

Stay on topic now.

That isn't true. The children who don't want to learn won't regardless if you give them HW to do or not. They'll either not do it or copy it from someone else.
[/quote]I am on topic TYVM and I respectfully disagree. True cheaters will cheat there is a certain segment that simply will not understand consequences until they are a bitter 45 year old ditch digger. There is also a certain element that will seek out that extra bit of book learnin' as a challenge or simply because they know no other way than acheivement.

Then there is the big fat middle of that bell curve where the lazy, directionless, unwashed masses lie. These are the ones who want to achieve but probably want to hang out and do extracurriculars, like hangin' out, far more than extra work. These are the ones you can reach by putting a higher expectation upon them. Some will grasp the chance, some will fall by the wayside and most will do what is necessary to get by. They will b#### and moan but they will get the work done and not realize they are learning that life requires a little responsibility and accountability, something you have still not explained how voluntary HW would help to create. These are the ones who will not voluntarily choose the HW, these are the ones who need that extra push to figure it out and these are by far the majority of students.

I can't believe that you think a voluntary HW program would not end up creating more of those who fall by the wayside than any other group.

the work week is for (gasp) work. i don't see a problem with a student getting home at 7pm, eating dinner, and spending 2-3 hours on homework on 4 days (monday-thursday). "Having a life" does not imply that you can "hang out" every day. If you have friday afternoon/evening and all of sat./sun. off - you have tons of free time on your hands.

i personally feel that a big reason why american students perform so HORRIBLY compared to students in other industrialized nations is exactly because we expect so little out of them. a high school education should, imho, be enough to enable a student to be productive in a variety of careers. there is no need for a student to go through their "undergraduate experience" only to pursue a career that they could have just as easily pursued after high school. in the US, there seems to be an expectation of having a college degree for a ridiculous variety of fields that didn't require such a degree some thirty-forty years ago. while college should be about the highest level of learning - it unfortunately is nowhere near that standard now. (oh, the kids want to party. oh, the kids are doing other activities. - Learning is the top priority, period. If a student is able to participate in other activities outside of the curriculum, good for them! But don't cater the curriculum to the lowest denominator ...)

Are any of you familiar with unschooling? Some interesting discussion here: David Friedman's case for it, and his (publicly schooled) son's arguments against it.

On what are you basing the view that American students are horrible?

[quote name='RKMoney' post='5698648' date='Oct 11 2006, 04:32 AM'][quote name='Chaka' post='5697922' date='Oct 10 2006, 05:05 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697788' date='Oct 11 2006, 01:37 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697689' date='Oct 10 2006, 04:16 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697593' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:59 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697526' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:52 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697432' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:39 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697397' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:32 PM']This is the operative phrase in this paragraph.

By making it voluntary you guarantee the underachievers will continue to underachieve (a process that typically begins in the home), by making it mandatory and establishing consequences for their actions (failing grades) you teach them about accountability and responsibility and maybe you reach a few of the underachievers and get them to change their habits. Some children will always underachieve, or achieve at a lower level if you prefer, but some simply haven't been taught any other way.[/quote]

I disagree but even if I agreed, so the people who know it already should be punished? People who underachieve still do so with HW assigned. They either skip it or cheat and copy off someone else.


I just remember getting some bad grades in HW assignments not because I didn't know how to do it but because I had not only practice (sports) after class and then focused on HW in classes where I needed help. So my choice at a certain point later at night was to get decent amount of sleep or simply skip it. When I skiped it I got a bad mark on the HW which is lame.
[/quote]By making HW mandatory you are teaching the ones who "know it already" about responsibility and accountibility. Doesn't that make you happy? After all should I not write a report for work because I know the information, or I know my client/boss knows the information? Of course not that would be irresponsible.
[/quote]

Your analogy isn't a good one. Your boss wants you to write a report that will benefit others in the company or benefit your boss (boss wants you to write up a report after you met with clients is a valid reason why you should do the report) you work for but how would say you, a master in Algebra, help you by doing an hours worth of HW while instead you could spend it on one of your other subjects that you are weak at? HW helps noone. It doesn't help the teacher, it doesn't help you or anyone else if the HW only wastes your time an hurts you in the other subjects you need help in.
[/quote]How do you know this? Plenty of office work is unnecessary and or redundant but it is also my responsibility and I am accountable for it. Homework at least has a benefit for some if not all.
[/quote]

Example? I've given plenty as to why HW shouldn't be mandatory.

HW CAN be beneficial depending on the context, it shouldn't though hurt you because you need to do it while not focusing on HW that you need to do.
[/quote]Example of redundant or unnecessary office work? Are you kidding me?

I have given plenty of examples of why HW should not be voluntary.

And here we are.
[/quote]

No no, an example of unnecessary and or redundant office work. Doesn't matter, again, work environment a and acedemic enviornment can't really be compared as I told you earlier. I think you are comparing apples to oranges.[/quote]
How about it being necessary to put a cover sheet on all my TPS reports from now on?

Didn't you get the memo?

[quote]Boss wanting you to do a report and you think it's unnecessary is not even remotely the same as a teacher who gives out a HW assignment to do 100 long division problems when you are the math ace of the class and you have 4 other classes where you need to concentrate on that HW for the evening.[/quote]Actually it seems exactly the same.

And the 100 long division problems should be a snap for the math ace. Should he/she not be required to do the work that the 29 other non math aces are required to do? Ah no. If nothing else this is where he/she learns that life isn't always fair.

Sorry RK but you are basing your entire argument on your specific personal experience in HS and ignoring all the other students in your classes that needed that extra nudge and you still have not offered a viable solution.

[quote name='Chaka' post='5698720' date='Oct 10 2006, 07:48 PM'][quote name='RKMoney' post='5698622' date='Oct 11 2006, 04:27 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697914' date='Oct 10 2006, 05:03 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697806' date='Oct 11 2006, 01:41 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697725' date='Oct 10 2006, 04:24 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697641' date='Oct 11 2006, 01:07 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697573' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:57 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697481' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:45 AM']
[quote name='The Tick' post='5697454' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:42 PM']

I really disagree with your argument, but those are two of my favortie words in the english language. There is not enough of either taught to childeren, but I don't think homework as optional is the way to do it.[/quote]

You may be right but I haven't heard of one valid reason why mandatory HW is needed or necessary. If a student needs additional help or a book report is assigned then obviously you are going to have to do HW but if your strong point is in Math for example and need additional help in the other 5 classes, why should I be forced to waste an hour of what little time I have that night on Math when I need to do more work in the other classes?
[/quote]Because you cannot establish different curriculum for the students who understand a subject and those that do not.
[/quote]

Sure you can.

You are a teacher, you teach as you normally do during the class. Before class is up, you assign HW if they need to study it more. If the student does it and returns it, then as a teacher, you can check it over and grade it (grade doesn't count obviously). If a student doesn't do the HW then that's up to them.

If a student fails a test and doesn't do any HW then this can be expressed to his/her parents. Even as punishment, they must THEN do all HW suggestions until next test.

Or, you could make HW as a bonus. That way for student's who MUST do HW in other classes either because it's a book report or because they really need added help, it's up to them. They can skip it since they have more imporant issues or do it if they want to get a bonus grade.
[/quote]To whom do I assign my homework? 75% of my 180 students?

Again you are suggesting a voluntary HW system or even a HW as punishment system, neither of these is a good option.

HW is one thing extra credit assignments are something else entirely.

Look I understand that each student excels in different subjects, unfortunately the system is set so that these students must take courses with other students with varying levels of competency in the subject. And I have not seen a suggestion for how to compensate for these differences. As I have stated multiple times voluntary HW is not a viable option it hurts more than it helps.

I also think you are only looking at the side of the students who are proficient and ignoring the teachers responsibility to teach all their students.
[/quote]

The same as you do now. It's not mandatory so simply assign as you normally do but just don't make it mandatory.

If you excel or don't NEED the extra help in English, it absolutely makes ZERO sense to force them to do mindless HW when they most likely have HW in many other classes that they need to focus on that night. By making HW voluntary, they can focus on the subjects that they need help in.

If you know long division and are given 100 long divison problems to do that night, how does it remotely help you? In fact, it can actually hurt you if you need to study for a test and/or do HW in a subject that you are struggling in.
[/quote]The children who need the help are not going to seek it bro and you are blind if think they are going to, and even the ones who would are probably the ones who need it the least. It does not teach them responsibility it teaches them that they have no responsibility.

Sorry but classes cannot be catered to the individual.
[/quote]

Stay on topic now.

That isn't true. The children who don't want to learn won't regardless if you give them HW to do or not. They'll either not do it or copy it from someone else.
[/quote]I am on topic TYVM and I respectfully disagree. True cheaters will cheat there is a certain segment that simply will not understand consequences until they are a bitter 45 year old ditch digger. There is also a certain element that will seek out that extra bit of book learnin' as a challenge or simply because they know no other way than acheivement.

Then there is the big fat middle of that bell curve where the lazy, directionless, unwashed masses lie. These are the ones who want to achieve but probably want to hang out and do extracurriculars, like hangin' out, far more than extra work. These are the ones you can reach by putting a higher expectation upon them. Some will grasp the chance, some will fall by the wayside and most will do what is necessary to get by. They will b#### and moan but they will get the work done and not realize they are learning that life requires a little responsibility and accountability, something you have still not explained how voluntary HW would help to create. These are the ones who will not voluntarily choose the HW, these are the ones who need that extra push to figure it out and these are by far the majority of students.

I can't believe that you think a voluntary HW program would not end up creating more of those who fall by the wayside than any other group.
[/quote]

I think what's lost here is that if you want to get to the big fat middle of that bell curve, it's got to be done IN THE CLASSROOM, not through HW which ONLY helps to the student's that want to learn. If you don't want to learn and want to do something else outside of class then you will. You'll either cheat off someone else's HW or do it half *** or not do it all. I can't honestly believe that by assigning HW it magically turns a kid who doesn't want to learn into one that does, that's done IN the classroom. ANYONE can assign HW, big deal.

In every class I took that I didn't care for at the beginning, HW wasn't the factor that got me interested, it was the teacher.

Again, HW should not be mandatory for the many reason I gave. The extra push won't come from HW to be effective it will come from the teacher itself.

That would have been a disaster for me. I basically had no intellectual curiosity at all until I was around 25 years old.

[quote name='Chaka' post='5698759' date='Oct 10 2006, 07:54 PM'][quote name='RKMoney' post='5698648' date='Oct 11 2006, 04:32 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697922' date='Oct 10 2006, 05:05 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697788' date='Oct 11 2006, 01:37 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697689' date='Oct 10 2006, 04:16 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697593' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:59 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697526' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:52 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697432' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:39 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697397' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:32 PM']This is the operative phrase in this paragraph.

By making it voluntary you guarantee the underachievers will continue to underachieve (a process that typically begins in the home), by making it mandatory and establishing consequences for their actions (failing grades) you teach them about accountability and responsibility and maybe you reach a few of the underachievers and get them to change their habits. Some children will always underachieve, or achieve at a lower level if you prefer, but some simply haven't been taught any other way.[/quote]

I disagree but even if I agreed, so the people who know it already should be punished? People who underachieve still do so with HW assigned. They either skip it or cheat and copy off someone else.


I just remember getting some bad grades in HW assignments not because I didn't know how to do it but because I had not only practice (sports) after class and then focused on HW in classes where I needed help. So my choice at a certain point later at night was to get decent amount of sleep or simply skip it. When I skiped it I got a bad mark on the HW which is lame.
[/quote]By making HW mandatory you are teaching the ones who "know it already" about responsibility and accountibility. Doesn't that make you happy? After all should I not write a report for work because I know the information, or I know my client/boss knows the information? Of course not that would be irresponsible.
[/quote]

Your analogy isn't a good one. Your boss wants you to write a report that will benefit others in the company or benefit your boss (boss wants you to write up a report after you met with clients is a valid reason why you should do the report) you work for but how would say you, a master in Algebra, help you by doing an hours worth of HW while instead you could spend it on one of your other subjects that you are weak at? HW helps noone. It doesn't help the teacher, it doesn't help you or anyone else if the HW only wastes your time an hurts you in the other subjects you need help in.
[/quote]How do you know this? Plenty of office work is unnecessary and or redundant but it is also my responsibility and I am accountable for it. Homework at least has a benefit for some if not all.
[/quote]

Example? I've given plenty as to why HW shouldn't be mandatory.

HW CAN be beneficial depending on the context, it shouldn't though hurt you because you need to do it while not focusing on HW that you need to do.
[/quote]Example of redundant or unnecessary office work? Are you kidding me?

I have given plenty of examples of why HW should not be voluntary.

And here we are.
[/quote]

No no, an example of unnecessary and or redundant office work. Doesn't matter, again, work environment a and acedemic enviornment can't really be compared as I told you earlier. I think you are comparing apples to oranges.[/quote]
How about it being necessary to put a cover sheet on all my TPS reports from now on?

Didn't you get the memo?

[quote]Boss wanting you to do a report and you think it's unnecessary is not even remotely the same as a teacher who gives out a HW assignment to do 100 long division problems when you are the math ace of the class and you have 4 other classes where you need to concentrate on that HW for the evening.[/quote]Actually it seems exactly the same.

And the 100 long division problems should be a snap for the math ace. Should he/she not be required to do the work that the 29 other non math aces are required to do? Ah no. If nothing else this is where he/she learns that life isn't always fair.

Sorry RK but you are basing your entire argument on your specific personal experience in HS and ignoring all the other students in your classes that needed that extra nudge and you still have not offered a viable solution.
[/quote]

Which won't come from HW. Sorry but I know you know deep down that assigning HW makes kids go from unmotivated to movitated now. That makes zero sense.