How much homework do you think those little Japanese and Hindu kids do? What about those Chinese kids? WAY TO RUIN THE FUTURE OF THIS COUNTRY YOU ####!!!!!!

Was that before or after you finished law school?

re: international comparisons
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/educ...218_math07.html
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=10233

will add more as i find reputable links

re: college is un-necessary and K-12 education needs improvement (long download)
http://www.alec.org/meSWFiles/pdf/2003%20R...0performance%22

[quote name='RKMoney' post='5698693' date='Oct 11 2006, 04:43 AM'][quote name='Chaka' post='5698682' date='Oct 10 2006, 07:40 PM']
[quote name='Serenity Now' post='5698580' date='Oct 11 2006, 04:19 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697695' date='Oct 10 2006, 06:17 PM']
[quote name='Serenity Now' post='5697623' date='Oct 11 2006, 01:03 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697573' date='Oct 10 2006, 05:57 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697481' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:45 AM']
[quote name='The Tick' post='5697454' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:42 PM']

I really disagree with your argument, but those are two of my favortie words in the english language. There is not enough of either taught to childeren, but I don't think homework as optional is the way to do it.[/quote]

You may be right but I haven't heard of one valid reason why mandatory HW is needed or necessary. If a student needs additional help or a book report is assigned then obviously you are going to have to do HW but if your strong point is in Math for example and need additional help in the other 5 classes, why should I be forced to waste an hour of what little time I have that night on Math when I need to do more work in the other classes?
[/quote]Because you cannot establish different curriculum for the students who understand a subject and those that do not.
[/quote]
While the curriculum cannot be written differently, any curriculum that doesn't allow for students working at various levels is poorly crafted, IMO. Teachers need to be able to properly individualize learning for their students. Smart students shouldn't have to suffer through boring drill work but get more challenging work, while struggling students need to be given assignments that they actually have some hope of mastering.
[/quote]Great thought now tell me how to put it into action in a public school where each teacher has six classes of 30 students?
[/quote]
What's your subject? Must be middle school or higher since you're responsible for so many kids.
[/quote]I am not a teacher, but if I were I would want to teach...

...DANCE!!!
[/quote]

Do you LIVE on these boards? Seems like whenever I come back and answer *pop* you reply within 5 minutes!
[/quote] Actually I have been gone for at least two hours. After my last post I went for a 4 mile run, found a stray dog, located the owner and brought the dog back then on the way back from their place I found another stray dog this time with no tags so I went door to door until I found the owner. Just got back 10 minutes ago.

Now it's shower and dinner time.

I went to law school between the ages of 25 and 28. That was my intellectual awakening.

As an empty nester, I would vote for the elimination of awards dinners and spring/holiday concerts. (Or at least being dragged to them by the Mrs)

[quote name='RKMoney' post='5698761' date='Oct 11 2006, 04:54 AM'][quote name='Chaka' post='5698720' date='Oct 10 2006, 07:48 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5698622' date='Oct 11 2006, 04:27 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697914' date='Oct 10 2006, 05:03 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697806' date='Oct 11 2006, 01:41 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697725' date='Oct 10 2006, 04:24 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697641' date='Oct 11 2006, 01:07 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697573' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:57 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697481' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:45 AM']
[quote name='The Tick' post='5697454' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:42 PM']

I really disagree with your argument, but those are two of my favortie words in the english language. There is not enough of either taught to childeren, but I don't think homework as optional is the way to do it.[/quote]

You may be right but I haven't heard of one valid reason why mandatory HW is needed or necessary. If a student needs additional help or a book report is assigned then obviously you are going to have to do HW but if your strong point is in Math for example and need additional help in the other 5 classes, why should I be forced to waste an hour of what little time I have that night on Math when I need to do more work in the other classes?
[/quote]Because you cannot establish different curriculum for the students who understand a subject and those that do not.
[/quote]

Sure you can.

You are a teacher, you teach as you normally do during the class. Before class is up, you assign HW if they need to study it more. If the student does it and returns it, then as a teacher, you can check it over and grade it (grade doesn't count obviously). If a student doesn't do the HW then that's up to them.

If a student fails a test and doesn't do any HW then this can be expressed to his/her parents. Even as punishment, they must THEN do all HW suggestions until next test.

Or, you could make HW as a bonus. That way for student's who MUST do HW in other classes either because it's a book report or because they really need added help, it's up to them. They can skip it since they have more imporant issues or do it if they want to get a bonus grade.
[/quote]To whom do I assign my homework? 75% of my 180 students?

Again you are suggesting a voluntary HW system or even a HW as punishment system, neither of these is a good option.

HW is one thing extra credit assignments are something else entirely.

Look I understand that each student excels in different subjects, unfortunately the system is set so that these students must take courses with other students with varying levels of competency in the subject. And I have not seen a suggestion for how to compensate for these differences. As I have stated multiple times voluntary HW is not a viable option it hurts more than it helps.

I also think you are only looking at the side of the students who are proficient and ignoring the teachers responsibility to teach all their students.
[/quote]

The same as you do now. It's not mandatory so simply assign as you normally do but just don't make it mandatory.

If you excel or don't NEED the extra help in English, it absolutely makes ZERO sense to force them to do mindless HW when they most likely have HW in many other classes that they need to focus on that night. By making HW voluntary, they can focus on the subjects that they need help in.

If you know long division and are given 100 long divison problems to do that night, how does it remotely help you? In fact, it can actually hurt you if you need to study for a test and/or do HW in a subject that you are struggling in.
[/quote]The children who need the help are not going to seek it bro and you are blind if think they are going to, and even the ones who would are probably the ones who need it the least. It does not teach them responsibility it teaches them that they have no responsibility.

Sorry but classes cannot be catered to the individual.
[/quote]

Stay on topic now.

That isn't true. The children who don't want to learn won't regardless if you give them HW to do or not. They'll either not do it or copy it from someone else.
[/quote]I am on topic TYVM and I respectfully disagree. True cheaters will cheat there is a certain segment that simply will not understand consequences until they are a bitter 45 year old ditch digger. There is also a certain element that will seek out that extra bit of book learnin' as a challenge or simply because they know no other way than acheivement.

Then there is the big fat middle of that bell curve where the lazy, directionless, unwashed masses lie. These are the ones who want to achieve but probably want to hang out and do extracurriculars, like hangin' out, far more than extra work. These are the ones you can reach by putting a higher expectation upon them. Some will grasp the chance, some will fall by the wayside and most will do what is necessary to get by. They will b#### and moan but they will get the work done and not realize they are learning that life requires a little responsibility and accountability, something you have still not explained how voluntary HW would help to create. These are the ones who will not voluntarily choose the HW, these are the ones who need that extra push to figure it out and these are by far the majority of students.

I can't believe that you think a voluntary HW program would not end up creating more of those who fall by the wayside than any other group.
[/quote]

I think what's lost here is that if you want to get to the big fat middle of that bell curve, it's got to be done IN THE CLASSROOM, not through HW which ONLY helps to the student's that want to learn. If you don't want to learn and want to do something else outside of class then you will. You'll either cheat off someone else's HW or do it half *** or not do it all. I can't honestly believe that by assigning HW it magically turns a kid who doesn't want to learn into one that does, that's done IN the classroom. ANYONE can assign HW, big deal.

In every class I took that I didn't care for at the beginning, HW wasn't the factor that got me interested, it was the teacher.

Again, HW should not be mandatory for the many reason I gave. The extra push won't come from HW to be effective it will come from the teacher itself.
[/quote]It is not magic but fear of having to repeat a grade that motivates them. And even if they cheat or copy or whatever at least they are working on getting the job done instead of just hangin' out.

And who said HW was the only element of teaching? This thread is about HW not all the responsibilities of a teacher.

Now please stop posting because I gots to eat.

My 2 kids both do at least one-two hours a night..every night!

This country was founded on three principles of successful child rearing, spankings, yard work and homework. First they came for my spankings..... then the yard work. Now mamby-pamby 60's rejects want to do away with homework? Not on my watch......

What would we do without studies?

I can't see wasting a teacher's time watching a bunch of kids reading books in an English Literature class.

I think the rote memorization of things like splelling, multiplication tables, etc, is best done outside of the classroom.

Similarly, practice prolems in mathematics in HS is best as homework.

But let's not take any time away from Johnny playing his video games. You can just feel this country getting stupider.

Both of these articles list American kids somewhere in the middle of industrialized nations. That's average, not horrible.

Also, I've read that the tests on which these studies are based are really big deals in some countries. Students prepare for them and receive scores back that actually matter to their future. In the U.S., we don't really do anything like that. The kids just show up and take the test and don't really care how they do.

I'm not really convinced that kids in the U.S. are really any worse academically than in other countries.

No, it shouldn't.

Why have teachers is an abosolutely good question. How about to teach? Or maybe you think they should read to their students, do memorization drills in school, etc?

not sure where you're getting that. Quoting first article:
"Overall, U.S. students scored below the international average in total math literacy and in every specific area tested, from geometry and algebra to statistics and computation."

and

"Fifteen-year-olds in the United States don't have the math skills to match up to peers in many other industrialized nations, test scores released yesterday show. ... The United States scored below 20 of the 29 industrialized countries tested. Its performance was about the same as Poland, Hungary and Spain. When compared with all 39 nations that produced scores, the United States was below 23 countries, above 11 and about the same as four others, with Latvia joining the middle group. "If we want to be competitive, we have some mountains to climb," Deputy Education Secretary Eugene Hickok said at a news conference yesterday."

From the second article ...

"Technology, Homework, and Teachers

In addition to measuring student performance, TIMSS-Repeat asked students and teachers questions about classroom practices that yielded some revealing information.

For instance, U.S. eighth-grade students were far more likely than their peers to use calculators in their math lessons. In 1999, 42 percent of the Americans "almost always" used calculators, compared with the international average of just 19 percent. In addition, 80 percent of U.S. eighth-graders said they had a computer in their home, compared with an international average of just 45 percent.

At the same time, U.S. pupils reported spending less time on math and science homework than their international peers. The Americans spent about three-fourths of an hour on such work, while the international average was one full hour.

More calculators/less homework: Could this combination have something to do with disappointing performance? "

This is the article I was thinking of

The John Stossel special with the Belgian kids on it a year or two ago was not encouraging for Americans. The Belgian kids wiped the floor with the Americans from an above-average school in New Jersey -- on a test given in English.

21st out of 29 isn't horrible. It's not even bottom 25%.

nice read.

Here's what I take out of it: American students have a sense of entitlement. Don't worry, you won't fail. Don't worry, you won't get held back a grade. We coddle our students far too much to expect them to put forth a serious effort and make their time spent in high school worthwhile.

I didn't see the special. What were they testing exactly?

I don't get that from the article at all. I get that our kids don't give a #### about some stupid test.

from your link:
"The dubiousness of these test results becomes clear when you compare them to the results of tests that actually do matter for teenagers: high-school exit exams and college boards. Nineteen states now require their students to pass assessments before they can don a cap and gown; seven others are testing students but not yet withholding diplomas. When states begin imposing penalties for failure, it makes a difference—sometimes a big one. Look at Texas: In 2004, results counted toward graduation for the first time, and pass rates on both the math and English portions of the test leapt almost 20 points. According to Julie Jary, who oversees student assessment for the state, no substantive alterations were made to the test. What changed was students' motivation: When their diplomas were hanging in the balance, they managed to give more correct answers."


in other words, by making school difficult again and by imposing penalties for failure (ie - using the whole grade scale instead of everyone getting higher than a B, holding kids back who don't pass their required grade level tests, etc.) we can reasonably expect our students to learn more leaving high school and our country to become more competitive internationally.

I read it to mean that kids did better on the test when it mattered. That doesn't mean they actually knew any more -- they just took the test more seriously. That's the point the author is making, I think.

How is that compared to where we were 30, 40, 50 years ago?

BTW, if you don't think that our students are being coached specifically to pass standardized tests you aren't paying attention.

The show gave some examples of questions, but I don't remember exactly. As far as I recall, they were like math word problems and science-oriented questions for the most part -- not memorized trivia.

Here's a related article (with a video clip from the show).

Wonderful! We are now really proud that we haven't, quite yet, dropped into the bottom 25%. Priceless!

I don't know if they were doing these international tests 50 years ago. And kids are being coached to pass tests that matter for one reason or another. These tests don't matter.

It doesn't matter that our teachers are wasting time prepping students to take tests for the sake of making it look like they know what they don't really know so their schools are rated higher? What planet are you from?

It's hard to tell from the article what the conditions of the testing were or whether the kids were selected randomly. The author had a pretty clear agenda.

I think there's some confusion in how you're reading my answer. Or maybe some confusion in how I read your original statement. I'm not a fan of all the testing currently going on.

I'm not saying it's great. I just think don't think it's accurate to describe the scores as "horrible" compared to other industrialized nations.

The agenda is obvious. But the American kids were from an above-average high school in New Jersey, which is an above-average state for results on these tests. The entire class took the test, so there was no hand-picking in that regard.

I don't know how the kids in Belgiam were picked. (Stossel does state that he didn't pick smart kids from Belgiam or stupid kids from America, if you're willing to take his word for it.)

The interviews with the kids may have been chosen or edited to suit the show's agenda, but the Belgian kids were much more articulate than the American kids, notwithstanding their goofy accent (since they were speaking a second language). It seems unlikely to me that they'd have been able to edit the interviews to give the opposite impression if that had been the goal, but who knows?

I didn't see the special and don't have any personal experience in Belgium. But the very fact that the Belgian school operated on some sort of voucher system makes me think that the students attending that school are not a random group at all.

In Europe it is much more common to "hang out" for hours every day. We put much more importance on being busy and not wasting time then they do. So I think your conclusion as to why they're outperforming us is incorrect.

I believe that's how education works in Belgium. It's not a special system for just a few kids. It's for everybody.

I understand that. But a voucher system means that there is some process by which students end up at that school. It isn't just random. And if that's a particularly desirable school, I don't know how the school decides who to admit.

The data is good. Homework is unhelpful for elementary school students. It's important for high school students only insofar as it expands the material they're able to learn and prepares them for college, where the majority of learning occurs through reading and writing outside of class, also known as homework.

Here's what the American Association of School Administrators said about Stossel's comparison:



Obviously they have an agenda too. The truth may be somewhere in between.

As far as homework goes, put me in favor of reducing it in elementary schools.
The trend recently is for every grade including kindergarten to have homework. When I was in elementary school (1976 was kindergarten, graduated high school in 1989 for reference), I didn't have homework until third grade. Prior to that nothing.

Japan recently eliminated homework from elementary schools. They've been kicking our ### at education for thirty years and they're dropping it in elementary schools? That alone should tell you something.

I have never been a big fan of homework. For me, lots of it is just unfinished classwork that I want to grade tomorrow. I didn't do it to be trendy 'cause it wasn't but I was OK with that. Now that I teach all math all day it's only a little different as I actually try to alow for some problems to be done independently so that it sets in their brains better.

My main reason for not giving out a lot of HW is that it really conflicts with the really cool stuff folks can do with their kids at home. I am big into sports but I also appreciate drama, dance, martial arts, scouting, 4H etc. all the things that schools just can't do well. Also, the kids have chores to do. At my house it's chores before HW as any other way the kids drag out their HW ridiculously long. Additionally, most HW that I have seen is busywork given by young teachers to compensate for being a n00b.

I'm in my fourteenth year now. I find that the amount of homework I give depends on the level of the class.

In my AP Calculus class it's every day. If you want to see what I mean check out the calendar.pdf file I attached to this post. Even on test days they get an assignment. I have to remain somewhat flexible. Right now we're a day ahead of schedule, but I'm sure we'll run into some roadblocks and fall a day behind eventually. Seems to happen every year. We have to stay somewhat on schedule because the AP exam looms out there in May.

At the other extreme in my Math Lab (pre-Algebra) homework is something they have to choose to do. It's a different type of class. Passing is 90%. Want the credit? Do the work. This class is basically a room of at-risk kids. Everything is hands on. Less content and lots more focus on a few concepts. Aritmetic, area, perimeter, volume, etc.

My Geometry class is somewhere in the middle.

I've developed some strategies for getting a larger percentage of homework completed. The best idea I've implemented is handouts (worksheet style) with the problems on the page. It gets done. Telling kids to do the evens on page 54 doesn't work. Handing them a paper that has the problems printed on it makes a huge difference. Huge. I can't fully explain it, but it works. Kids can see exactly what they're up against and plan their time accordingly. I rarely give assignments not pre-printed on a page now. I can share a few tomorrow if anyone wants to see some examples.

Overall I think there's a time and place for homework if it's well planned, purposeful, and spiraled.

http://www.meridian.wednet.edu/~dshick/06-...lusCalendar.pdf

Isn't this less so because they are smart and disciplined and moreso because they want to get two units of learnin' out of one unit of teachin?' I mean, if time weren't such a huge issue (looming AP test) you could do less HW and go slower? The parents of those tuned in to this academic load are darned parsimonious when it comes to getting value for their tax dollar.

The problem with this thread is that people who are talking about work loads in elementary school are aguing with those talking about work loads in high school and beyond.


And to those who suggest that it's homework that's the reason for asian students kicking our collective butts on standardized testing.

I think that for math / physics / chemistry at the HS level, HW twice a week (or 3 times) is better than weekly (college type) since it's more likely that the student will do the work if it's only a little bit than if it's a huge problem set.

I don't think that enough repetition and problem solving can be done in the classroom for the "no homework" option.

Andy Dufresne warned of this way back at the beginning of page 1. That guy is prescient.

I agree that there is certainly good reason to look at the ages of the students regarding the need for and benefit of homework.

When I originally made the post I was thinking more of middle school and high school. Although I think that older gradeschoolers should also start getting a certain amount of homework as well.

What bothers me is that, in general, we continue to ask less and less of our children. We don't expect them to work hard. We don't expect them to be responsible. We don't expect them to be respectful. We're only concerned that they are happy and having a good time. We're raising a generation of lazy, self-absorbed hedonists and I have a feeling that we're going to pay a big price for it.

sadly I agree with you......A good hard smack in the mouth and a sit down and do your work never hurt anyone.

My kids wouldn't agree with you

[quote name='Chaka' post='5698789' date='Oct 10 2006, 07:59 PM'][quote name='RKMoney' post='5698693' date='Oct 11 2006, 04:43 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5698682' date='Oct 10 2006, 07:40 PM']
[quote name='Serenity Now' post='5698580' date='Oct 11 2006, 04:19 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697695' date='Oct 10 2006, 06:17 PM']
[quote name='Serenity Now' post='5697623' date='Oct 11 2006, 01:03 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697573' date='Oct 10 2006, 05:57 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697481' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:45 AM']
[quote name='The Tick' post='5697454' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:42 PM']

I really disagree with your argument, but those are two of my favortie words in the english language. There is not enough of either taught to childeren, but I don't think homework as optional is the way to do it.[/quote]

You may be right but I haven't heard of one valid reason why mandatory HW is needed or necessary. If a student needs additional help or a book report is assigned then obviously you are going to have to do HW but if your strong point is in Math for example and need additional help in the other 5 classes, why should I be forced to waste an hour of what little time I have that night on Math when I need to do more work in the other classes?
[/quote]Because you cannot establish different curriculum for the students who understand a subject and those that do not.
[/quote]
While the curriculum cannot be written differently, any curriculum that doesn't allow for students working at various levels is poorly crafted, IMO. Teachers need to be able to properly individualize learning for their students. Smart students shouldn't have to suffer through boring drill work but get more challenging work, while struggling students need to be given assignments that they actually have some hope of mastering.
[/quote]Great thought now tell me how to put it into action in a public school where each teacher has six classes of 30 students?
[/quote]
What's your subject? Must be middle school or higher since you're responsible for so many kids.
[/quote]I am not a teacher, but if I were I would want to teach...

...DANCE!!!
[/quote]

Do you LIVE on these boards? Seems like whenever I come back and answer *pop* you reply within 5 minutes!
[/quote] Actually I have been gone for at least two hours. After my last post I went for a 4 mile run, found a stray dog, located the owner and brought the dog back then on the way back from their place I found another stray dog this time with no tags so I went door to door until I found the owner. Just got back 10 minutes ago.

Now it's shower and dinner time.
[/quote]

[quote name='Chaka' date='Oct 10 2006, 08:02 PM' post='5698807']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5698761' date='Oct 11 2006, 04:54 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5698720' date='Oct 10 2006, 07:48 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5698622' date='Oct 11 2006, 04:27 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697914' date='Oct 10 2006, 05:03 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697806' date='Oct 11 2006, 01:41 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697725' date='Oct 10 2006, 04:24 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697641' date='Oct 11 2006, 01:07 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697573' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:57 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697481' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:45 AM']
[quote name='The Tick' post='5697454' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:42 PM']

I really disagree with your argument, but those are two of my favortie words in the english language. There is not enough of either taught to childeren, but I don't think homework as optional is the way to do it.
[/quote]

You may be right but I haven't heard of one valid reason why mandatory HW is needed or necessary. If a student needs additional help or a book report is assigned then obviously you are going to have to do HW but if your strong point is in Math for example and need additional help in the other 5 classes, why should I be forced to waste an hour of what little time I have that night on Math when I need to do more work in the other classes?
[/quote]Because you cannot establish different curriculum for the students who understand a subject and those that do not.
[/quote]

Sure you can.

You are a teacher, you teach as you normally do during the class. Before class is up, you assign HW if they need to study it more. If the student does it and returns it, then as a teacher, you can check it over and grade it (grade doesn't count obviously). If a student doesn't do the HW then that's up to them.

If a student fails a test and doesn't do any HW then this can be expressed to his/her parents. Even as punishment, they must THEN do all HW suggestions until next test.

Or, you could make HW as a bonus. That way for student's who MUST do HW in other classes either because it's a book report or because they really need added help, it's up to them. They can skip it since they have more imporant issues or do it if they want to get a bonus grade.
[/quote]To whom do I assign my homework? 75% of my 180 students?

Again you are suggesting a voluntary HW system or even a HW as punishment system, neither of these is a good option.

HW is one thing extra credit assignments are something else entirely.

Look I understand that each student excels in different subjects, unfortunately the system is set so that these students must take courses with other students with varying levels of competency in the subject. And I have not seen a suggestion for how to compensate for these differences. As I have stated multiple times voluntary HW is not a viable option it hurts more than it helps.

I also think you are only looking at the side of the students who are proficient and ignoring the teachers responsibility to teach all their students.
[/quote]

The same as you do now. It's not mandatory so simply assign as you normally do but just don't make it mandatory.

If you excel or don't NEED the extra help in English, it absolutely makes ZERO sense to force them to do mindless HW when they most likely have HW in many other classes that they need to focus on that night. By making HW voluntary, they can focus on the subjects that they need help in.

If you know long division and are given 100 long divison problems to do that night, how does it remotely help you? In fact, it can actually hurt you if you need to study for a test and/or do HW in a subject that you are struggling in.
[/quote]The children who need the help are not going to seek it bro and you are blind if think they are going to, and even the ones who would are probably the ones who need it the least. It does not teach them responsibility it teaches them that they have no responsibility.

Sorry but classes cannot be catered to the individual.
[/quote]

Stay on topic now.

That isn't true. The children who don't want to learn won't regardless if you give them HW to do or not. They'll either not do it or copy it from someone else.
[/quote]I am on topic TYVM and I respectfully disagree. True cheaters will cheat there is a certain segment that simply will not understand consequences until they are a bitter 45 year old ditch digger. There is also a certain element that will seek out that extra bit of book learnin' as a challenge or simply because they know no other way than acheivement.

Then there is the big fat middle of that bell curve where the lazy, directionless, unwashed masses lie. These are the ones who want to achieve but probably want to hang out and do extracurriculars, like hangin' out, far more than extra work. These are the ones you can reach by putting a higher expectation upon them. Some will grasp the chance, some will fall by the wayside and most will do what is necessary to get by. They will b#### and moan but they will get the work done and not realize they are learning that life requires a little responsibility and accountability, something you have still not explained how voluntary HW would help to create. These are the ones who will not voluntarily choose the HW, these are the ones who need that extra push to figure it out and these are by far the majority of students.

I can't believe that you think a voluntary HW program would not end up creating more of those who fall by the wayside than any other group.
[/quote]

I think what's lost here is that if you want to get to the big fat middle of that bell curve, it's got to be done IN THE CLASSROOM, not through HW which ONLY helps to the student's that want to learn. If you don't want to learn and want to do something else outside of class then you will. You'll either cheat off someone else's HW or do it half *** or not do it all. I can't honestly believe that by assigning HW it magically turns a kid who doesn't want to learn into one that does, that's done IN the classroom. ANYONE can assign HW, big deal.

In every class I took that I didn't care for at the beginning, HW wasn't the factor that got me interested, it was the teacher.

Again, HW should not be mandatory for the many reason I gave. The extra push won't come from HW to be effective it will come from the teacher itself.
[/quote]It is not magic but fear of having to repeat a grade that motivates them. And even if they cheat or copy or whatever at least they are working on getting the job done instead of just hangin' out.

And who said HW was the only element of teaching? This thread is about HW not all the responsibilities of a teacher.

Now please stop posting because I gots to eat.
[/quote]

Don't agree with that, for some sure but for the majority, most want to pass to get OUT of HS and into College or the real world and get a job.

HW is good when it's clearly needed, not for busy work IMO. Book reports you obviously need to do HW but a bunch of math problems that you already know how to do? Sorry, but that's a complete waste of time that you can spend on a number of things that will better you (either study more in other subjects where you stink or do something away from school).

I don't see how eliminating HW that's busy work would remotely hurt a student. Of course I am reflecting back to when I was in school and I promise you, doing HW in many cases was useless.

That's not how I was taught and never learned this outside of class. Guess things have changed for the worse and student's now must learn how to spell and multiply mainly outside of class? Is that why parent's are sending their children to private schools more now?

Problems in mathematics in HS is BEST while you are in class, not home.

And the country would be much better off if kids didn't have to stay holed up in their rooms when they get home instead of being outside and doing some sort of chore or activity. Get them OUT of the house when school is over is most important.