Does gym class really keep kids in shape, though? I don't remember it ever being very rigorous.

I didn't know not having gym was an option in high school.

Not sure if it's state law here but we had to have gym every year for 3 marking periods all the way through HS.

The one marking period was for health.

You can't become proficient with complex subjects like calculus by just sitting in class and following a teacher as he/she goes through problems. If you can then you're smarter than most of us.

I think I only had gym through 9th grade. I'm pretty sure it wasn't required in 10th-12th.

I didn't read the thread. I have 4 kids, 3 of which are in school. Them getting homework in my eyes is a good thing, the days they don't have any homework they are required to have reading time. Sometimes they must still read even with homework. Them having certain things to do for school at home teaches time management and prioritizing things. If they didn't have homework they would just get that much more around the house to do.

I have a nephew who doesn't do hardly any homework, his parents don't make him. It is starting to reflect in his daily work at school because he doesn't have to do as much and figures hell I don't have to do anything at home why should I do much at school. He has poor time management and skills to figure out what is important and what isn't.

NO.

hmmm where do I start:
1) you can't just learn stuff by watching a teacher do it on the blackboard. They show you concepts, then you learn by trying out these concepts in different situations on your own.
2) this can't all be done in class as different students will be able to do it at different paces. If teacher just says try it yourself for 10 minutes, half the class may actually get done and "learn" what they were doing, but the other half will be sitting there struggling through it for a while.
3) reading/analyzing/writing, has no place in class because it takes time and thought to actually do a well written essay or even paragraph when your younger, not something that should be taken up by school time.

I wasn't suggesting the parents help the kids do their homework, that kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it? But it doesn't take much education to crack the whip and make sure the child does their homework.

Parents can also contribute even if they don't know the subject by asking the child to teach them what they are doing. If the child has the opportunity to explain the work then it will certainly increase their comprehension of the material.

Homework is NOT the reason children are spending to much time inside and it is silly to suggest it is. How about cutting into their television time or their X-Box time or their on-line time to get them outside? Makes more sense than cutting into their intellectual time.

My son is horrible about playing the game cube, horrible, he could spend all day on that damn thing. He is also the worst about getting his homework done. We won't allow him to watch tv, play the game cube or anything inside unless his homework is done but even then we force him to play outside prior to allowing tv or gamecube. I have taken the thing away and actually taken him outside against his will, if for no other reason than making him sit outside instead of staying inside and staring at the tv.

For him homework isn't worthless, it is an absolute necessity. For my daughter it isn't as big a thing, she understands and can get things done much better but even for her I still think she needs homework, which can include just reading a book. They need down time after being at school and working their brains all day but at the same time they need to know intellectual stimulation doesn't stop once you leave school.

Calculus is a good example of something that shouldn't be brought home. We did most/all of our calculus work in class, helping each other, with the teacher closely supervising and helping when needed.

Bring calculus home and the vast majority of students are on their own. Most parents simply aren't capable of helping.

Long division is complex? I am going by the list above.

You could make an argument that regardless of how easy/difficult a class is, you NEED a teacher there and it's much more helpful than doing it on your own. You don't know how to do something, you shouldn't have your parents teach it to you because the teacher didn't have enough time to.

Calculus primer for dads. Bikini Calculus

For a child it can be. Heck I know plenty of adults who can't make change without a calculator.

And that's the parents job, not the teacher's job?

When I was in third grade it was for me... I guess i'm not as smart as the average FFAer... Makes me wonder how I managed to graduate college as an engineer...

So complex and easy subjects it's the parent's job to teach their children, not the teacher's job?

Either you don't get the concept of homework and independent study, you need someone to spoonfeed you every piece of new information in your life or RK gets my vote for Deep Sea Fisherman of the year.

Ok so the more important question is should the teacher teach you how to do long division or simply show you once and have your parent's help you at home?

I disagree 100% with this. Math (and particularly higher math) is definitely an area where I think homework would be quite helpful. Students learn from wrestling with problems on their own and/or drilling on basic mechanics.

That's how I learned calculus, and I'm sure I'm not alone on that. Profs are great for explaining the theory/intuition behind mathematical concepts, but its really up to the student to get the mechanics down on their own.

[quote name='Chaka' post='5697215' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:03 PM'][quote name='RKMoney' post='5697168' date='Oct 10 2006, 11:57 PM']
[quote name='Disco Stu' post='5697145' date='Oct 10 2006, 02:54 PM']
[quote name='Pipes' post='5697018' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:35 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5696956' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:29 PM']
[quote name='BGP' post='5696899' date='Oct 10 2006, 02:24 PM']
I disagree with getting rid of homework. Among the homework I had in elementary school:

+ math: memorizing times tables, etc, using flash cards.
+ math: worksheets of problems to solve like long division.
+ book reports: We had a book report due every two weeks - we had to pick a book from the school library to read and report on.
+ spelling: memorizing words
+ history: reading texts, taking notes
+ english: learning the formalities of the language like subjects and predicates, verbs, objects, pronouns, tenses, etc. Having homework assigned to identify these things in a given text.

I don't see the harm in any of this. A little less TV and more studies is a good thing.[/quote]

Shouldn't that all be done IN CLASS, not OUT OF CLASS though?

Edit: if the answer is "NO" then why have teachers?
[/quote]

You can't become proficient with complex subjects like calculus by just sitting in class and following a teacher as he/she goes through problems. If you can then you're smarter than most of us.
[/quote]
Calculus is a good example of something that shouldn't be brought home. We did most/all of our calculus work in class, helping each other, with the teacher closely supervising and helping when needed.

Bring calculus home and the vast majority of students are on their own. Most parents simply aren't capable of helping.
[/quote]



You could make an argument that regardless of how easy/difficult a class is, you NEED a teacher there and it's much more helpful than doing it on your own. You don't know how to do something, you shouldn't have your parents teach it to you because the teacher didn't have enough time to.
[/quote]Either you don't get the concept of homework and independent study, you need someone to spoonfeed you every piece of new information in your life or RK gets my vote for Deep Sea Fisherman of the year.
[/quote]

Homework can mean many different things.

It's supplemental education bro (I know how much you love to be called bro), it teaches them independent problem solving skills and/or reinforces information covered in class. The parent doesn't need to teach them the subject, even if they are capable which most are not, just make sure they actually do their work.

Don't act like it's a foreign concept.

But why make student's do homework? What if someone was an ace at calculus? Does that mean they need to waste their time doing it?

I don't think it's asking too much from a kid for him to read the textbook if he runs into a jam. It's good for students to work through things on their own without having a teacher/prof standing over their shoulder all the time.

Why force a student though to do it if they already know it?

It is difficult to set different standards for each students in a class. Would you rather other students receive less education because others are superior in a subject?

Sure but why force a student to do homework though? Problem is that you have 6 teacher's and each one wants you to do homework you can spend many hours racing through stuff you may already know. What's the point?

If they're a math whiz, then doing a little homework shouldn't be a big deal.

So all students know the subject completely? Why have schools then?

That's why you should make it voluntary. If you need additonal help then it's there, if not then no need to waste your time. Teach student's to be responsible and accountability.

I think this thread currently rates a 4 on the RKMonkey Trolling Scale™, but early indications are that that rating could rise.

[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697226' date='Oct 10 2006, 04:05 PM'][quote name='The Tick' post='5697210' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:03 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697157' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:55 PM']
[quote name='Pipes' post='5697018' date='Oct 10 2006, 02:35 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5696956' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:29 PM']
[quote name='BGP' post='5696899' date='Oct 10 2006, 02:24 PM']
I disagree with getting rid of homework. Among the homework I had in elementary school:

+ math: memorizing times tables, etc, using flash cards.
+ math: worksheets of problems to solve like long division.
+ book reports: We had a book report due every two weeks - we had to pick a book from the school library to read and report on.
+ spelling: memorizing words
+ history: reading texts, taking notes
+ english: learning the formalities of the language like subjects and predicates, verbs, objects, pronouns, tenses, etc. Having homework assigned to identify these things in a given text.

I don't see the harm in any of this. A little less TV and more studies is a good thing.[/quote]

Shouldn't that all be done IN CLASS, not OUT OF CLASS though?

Edit: if the answer is "NO" then why have teachers?
[/quote]

You can't become proficient with complex subjects like calculus by just sitting in class and following a teacher as he/she goes through problems. If you can then you're smarter than most of us.
[/quote]

Long division is complex? I am going by the list above.
[/quote]

When I was in third grade it was for me... I guess i'm not as smart as the average FFAer... Makes me wonder how I managed to graduate college as an engineer...
[/quote]



Ok so the more important question is should the teacher teach you how to do long division or simply show you once and have your parent's help you at home?
[/quote]

The teacher should teach it to you, but there is a limit to how much teaching the teacher can do before they have to move on for the rest of the class. If in that time you are not able to grasp the concept, and can't figure out the homework you have 4 options, fail, your parents can help if they can, off hours with the teacher, or a tutor.

Some will breeze by it so they shouldn't do any time wasting homework
Some will understand it but need additional work so home work is there

Again, most student's have 6 classes so while you may not need ANY homework for Math, you may need some for Science or English, etc.

That's a brilliant plan. I guess it's a good way to weed out the self-starters from the future ditch diggers. Heaven forbid we wouldn't want someone to learn they can achieve more if they actually work hard.

[quote name='The Tick' post='5697281' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:12 PM'][quote name='RKMoney' post='5697226' date='Oct 10 2006, 04:05 PM']
[quote name='The Tick' post='5697210' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:03 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697157' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:55 PM']
[quote name='Pipes' post='5697018' date='Oct 10 2006, 02:35 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5696956' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:29 PM']
[quote name='BGP' post='5696899' date='Oct 10 2006, 02:24 PM']
I disagree with getting rid of homework. Among the homework I had in elementary school:

+ math: memorizing times tables, etc, using flash cards.
+ math: worksheets of problems to solve like long division.
+ book reports: We had a book report due every two weeks - we had to pick a book from the school library to read and report on.
+ spelling: memorizing words
+ history: reading texts, taking notes
+ english: learning the formalities of the language like subjects and predicates, verbs, objects, pronouns, tenses, etc. Having homework assigned to identify these things in a given text.

I don't see the harm in any of this. A little less TV and more studies is a good thing.[/quote]

Shouldn't that all be done IN CLASS, not OUT OF CLASS though?

Edit: if the answer is "NO" then why have teachers?
[/quote]

You can't become proficient with complex subjects like calculus by just sitting in class and following a teacher as he/she goes through problems. If you can then you're smarter than most of us.
[/quote]

Long division is complex? I am going by the list above.
[/quote]

When I was in third grade it was for me... I guess i'm not as smart as the average FFAer... Makes me wonder how I managed to graduate college as an engineer...
[/quote]



Ok so the more important question is should the teacher teach you how to do long division or simply show you once and have your parent's help you at home?
[/quote]

The teacher should teach it to you, but there is a limit to how much teaching the teacher can do before they have to move on for the rest of the class. If in that time you are not able to grasp the concept, and can't figure out the homework you have 4 options, fail, your parents can help if they can, off hours with the teacher, or a tutor.
[/quote]

I understand all of this but if you master a particular subject or something you are doing at the time, why should you waste an hour of busy work at home when you may need help in other subjects?

Example: You are grandmaster at long division but you stink in Spanish translation. So your math teacher assigns you about an hour of doing long division problems while you have Spanish HW on top of that. This doesn't even cover your Physics and English homework. So, why waste time on your long division HW when you are the master at it when you need to spend your time in Spanish, Physics, and English? How does this help you one bit?

[quote name='Chaka' post='5697285' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:13 PM'][quote name='RKMoney' post='5697269' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:11 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697255' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:09 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697236' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:06 AM']
[quote name='IvanKaramazov' post='5697230' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:05 PM']
[quote name='Disco Stu' post='5697145' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:54 PM']
Calculus is a good example of something that shouldn't be brought home. We did most/all of our calculus work in class, helping each other, with the teacher closely supervising and helping when needed.

Bring calculus home and the vast majority of students are on their own. Most parents simply aren't capable of helping.[/quote]

I disagree 100% with this. Math (and particularly higher math) is definitely an area where I think homework would be quite helpful. Students learn from wrestling with problems on their own and/or drilling on basic mechanics.

That's how I learned calculus, and I'm sure I'm not alone on that. Profs are great for explaining the theory/intuition behind mathematical concepts, but its really up to the student to get the mechanics down on their own.
[/quote]

But why make student's do homework? What if someone was an ace at calculus? Does that mean they need to waste their time doing it?
[/quote]It is difficult to set different standards for each students in a class. Would you rather other students receive less education because others are superior in a subject?
[/quote]

That's why you should make it voluntary. If you need additonal help then it's there, if not then no need to waste your time. Teach student's to be responsible and accountability.
[/quote]

That's a brilliant plan. I guess it's a good way to weed out the self-starters from the future ditch diggers. Heaven forbid we wouldn't want someone to learn they can achieve more if they actually work hard.
[/quote]

[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697302' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:17 AM'][quote name='Chaka' post='5697285' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:13 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697269' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:11 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697255' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:09 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697236' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:06 AM']
[quote name='IvanKaramazov' post='5697230' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:05 PM']
[quote name='Disco Stu' post='5697145' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:54 PM']
Calculus is a good example of something that shouldn't be brought home. We did most/all of our calculus work in class, helping each other, with the teacher closely supervising and helping when needed.

Bring calculus home and the vast majority of students are on their own. Most parents simply aren't capable of helping.[/quote]

I disagree 100% with this. Math (and particularly higher math) is definitely an area where I think homework would be quite helpful. Students learn from wrestling with problems on their own and/or drilling on basic mechanics.

That's how I learned calculus, and I'm sure I'm not alone on that. Profs are great for explaining the theory/intuition behind mathematical concepts, but its really up to the student to get the mechanics down on their own.
[/quote]

But why make student's do homework? What if someone was an ace at calculus? Does that mean they need to waste their time doing it?
[/quote]It is difficult to set different standards for each students in a class. Would you rather other students receive less education because others are superior in a subject?
[/quote]

That's why you should make it voluntary. If you need additonal help then it's there, if not then no need to waste your time. Teach student's to be responsible and accountability.
[/quote]

That's a brilliant plan. I guess it's a good way to weed out the self-starters from the future ditch diggers. Heaven forbid we wouldn't want someone to learn they can achieve more if they actually work hard.
[/quote]
[/quote]How exactly? By making homework voluntary? Why not make X-Box an elective while we're at it?

[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697298' date='Oct 10 2006, 04:16 PM'][quote name='The Tick' post='5697281' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:12 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697226' date='Oct 10 2006, 04:05 PM']
[quote name='The Tick' post='5697210' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:03 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697157' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:55 PM']
[quote name='Pipes' post='5697018' date='Oct 10 2006, 02:35 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5696956' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:29 PM']
[quote name='BGP' post='5696899' date='Oct 10 2006, 02:24 PM']
I disagree with getting rid of homework. Among the homework I had in elementary school:

+ math: memorizing times tables, etc, using flash cards.
+ math: worksheets of problems to solve like long division.
+ book reports: We had a book report due every two weeks - we had to pick a book from the school library to read and report on.
+ spelling: memorizing words
+ history: reading texts, taking notes
+ english: learning the formalities of the language like subjects and predicates, verbs, objects, pronouns, tenses, etc. Having homework assigned to identify these things in a given text.

I don't see the harm in any of this. A little less TV and more studies is a good thing.[/quote]

Shouldn't that all be done IN CLASS, not OUT OF CLASS though?

Edit: if the answer is "NO" then why have teachers?
[/quote]

You can't become proficient with complex subjects like calculus by just sitting in class and following a teacher as he/she goes through problems. If you can then you're smarter than most of us.
[/quote]

Long division is complex? I am going by the list above.
[/quote]

When I was in third grade it was for me... I guess i'm not as smart as the average FFAer... Makes me wonder how I managed to graduate college as an engineer...
[/quote]



Ok so the more important question is should the teacher teach you how to do long division or simply show you once and have your parent's help you at home?
[/quote]

The teacher should teach it to you, but there is a limit to how much teaching the teacher can do before they have to move on for the rest of the class. If in that time you are not able to grasp the concept, and can't figure out the homework you have 4 options, fail, your parents can help if they can, off hours with the teacher, or a tutor.
[/quote]

I understand all of this but if you master a particular subject or something you are doing at the time, why should you waste an hour of busy work at home when you may need help in other subjects?

Example: You are grandmaster at long division but you stink in Spanish translation. So your math teacher assigns you about an hour of doing long division problems while you have Spanish HW on top of that. This doesn't even cover your Physics and English homework. So, why waste time on your long division HW when you are the master at it when you need to spend your time in Spanish, Physics, and English? How does this help you one bit?
[/quote]

That gets into the amount of homework assigned per class, which as I have stated in this thread earlier can be an issue also.

I would say spending an hour on something you are the master of is exactly a waste of time, and an unreasonable amount of homework. This isn't a metric that teachers can necessarily use, but for a student that is a master of a certain subject, I would think on average an assignment that takes more then 20 minutes would be busywork and a waste of their time. As for people that say even 20 minutes is a waste, live with it, it's school, just like work, sometimes you have to do pointless stuff, in this case, the reason would be because it would take a teacher too much time to tailor their class perfectly for each student, such is life.

This is a message board, correct?

[quote name='The Tick' post='5697334' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:23 PM'][quote name='RKMoney' post='5697298' date='Oct 10 2006, 04:16 PM']
[quote name='The Tick' post='5697281' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:12 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697226' date='Oct 10 2006, 04:05 PM']
[quote name='The Tick' post='5697210' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:03 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697157' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:55 PM']
[quote name='Pipes' post='5697018' date='Oct 10 2006, 02:35 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5696956' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:29 PM']
[quote name='BGP' post='5696899' date='Oct 10 2006, 02:24 PM']
I disagree with getting rid of homework. Among the homework I had in elementary school:

+ math: memorizing times tables, etc, using flash cards.
+ math: worksheets of problems to solve like long division.
+ book reports: We had a book report due every two weeks - we had to pick a book from the school library to read and report on.
+ spelling: memorizing words
+ history: reading texts, taking notes
+ english: learning the formalities of the language like subjects and predicates, verbs, objects, pronouns, tenses, etc. Having homework assigned to identify these things in a given text.

I don't see the harm in any of this. A little less TV and more studies is a good thing.[/quote]

Shouldn't that all be done IN CLASS, not OUT OF CLASS though?

Edit: if the answer is "NO" then why have teachers?
[/quote]

You can't become proficient with complex subjects like calculus by just sitting in class and following a teacher as he/she goes through problems. If you can then you're smarter than most of us.
[/quote]

Long division is complex? I am going by the list above.
[/quote]

When I was in third grade it was for me... I guess i'm not as smart as the average FFAer... Makes me wonder how I managed to graduate college as an engineer...
[/quote]



Ok so the more important question is should the teacher teach you how to do long division or simply show you once and have your parent's help you at home?
[/quote]

The teacher should teach it to you, but there is a limit to how much teaching the teacher can do before they have to move on for the rest of the class. If in that time you are not able to grasp the concept, and can't figure out the homework you have 4 options, fail, your parents can help if they can, off hours with the teacher, or a tutor.
[/quote]

I understand all of this but if you master a particular subject or something you are doing at the time, why should you waste an hour of busy work at home when you may need help in other subjects?

Example: You are grandmaster at long division but you stink in Spanish translation. So your math teacher assigns you about an hour of doing long division problems while you have Spanish HW on top of that. This doesn't even cover your Physics and English homework. So, why waste time on your long division HW when you are the master at it when you need to spend your time in Spanish, Physics, and English? How does this help you one bit?
[/quote]

That gets into the amount of homework assigned per class, which as I have stated in this thread earlier can be an issue also.

I would say spending an hour on something you are the master of is exactly a waste of time, and an unreasonable amount of homework. This isn't a metric that teachers can necessarily use, but for a student that is a master of a certain subject, I would think on average an assignment that takes more then 20 minutes would be busywork and a waste of their time. As for people that say even 20 minutes is a waste, live with it, it's school, just like work, sometimes you have to do pointless stuff, in this case, the reason would be because it would take a teacher too much time to tailor their class perfectly for each student, such is life.
[/quote]

If school's had HW voluntary then it would be left up to the student's and their parents. And for the people who rolleyes on this think about it, there's a lot of bad student's who simply DON'T do HW at all and get bad grades as a result. Forcing student's to do HW I don't think makes them any better students.

[quote name='Chaka' post='5697313' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:20 PM'][quote name='RKMoney' post='5697302' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:17 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697285' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:13 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697269' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:11 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697255' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:09 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697236' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:06 AM']
[quote name='IvanKaramazov' post='5697230' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:05 PM']
[quote name='Disco Stu' post='5697145' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:54 PM']
Calculus is a good example of something that shouldn't be brought home. We did most/all of our calculus work in class, helping each other, with the teacher closely supervising and helping when needed.

Bring calculus home and the vast majority of students are on their own. Most parents simply aren't capable of helping.[/quote]

I disagree 100% with this. Math (and particularly higher math) is definitely an area where I think homework would be quite helpful. Students learn from wrestling with problems on their own and/or drilling on basic mechanics.

That's how I learned calculus, and I'm sure I'm not alone on that. Profs are great for explaining the theory/intuition behind mathematical concepts, but its really up to the student to get the mechanics down on their own.
[/quote]

But why make student's do homework? What if someone was an ace at calculus? Does that mean they need to waste their time doing it?
[/quote]It is difficult to set different standards for each students in a class. Would you rather other students receive less education because others are superior in a subject?
[/quote]

That's why you should make it voluntary. If you need additonal help then it's there, if not then no need to waste your time. Teach student's to be responsible and accountability.
[/quote]

That's a brilliant plan. I guess it's a good way to weed out the self-starters from the future ditch diggers. Heaven forbid we wouldn't want someone to learn they can achieve more if they actually work hard.
[/quote]
[/quote]How exactly? By making homework voluntary? Why not make X-Box an elective while we're at it?
[/quote]

Responsibility --> Student's who need HW will ask for it and then take it home and do it themselves. It's up to them if they need more work on a particular subject. Someone can drop out and go to war but not responsible enough to know if they need more HW or not?

Accountability ---> need more help in a subject but skipped getting HW and as a result got a bad grade on the test? You should be held accountable for your actions, just like in life.

Work ethic. I spend most of my day doing things I already know how to do. I learned the patience to do this by doing it in school.

That's not work ethic though.

[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697356' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:26 AM'][quote name='The Tick' post='5697334' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:23 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697298' date='Oct 10 2006, 04:16 PM']
[quote name='The Tick' post='5697281' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:12 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697226' date='Oct 10 2006, 04:05 PM']
[quote name='The Tick' post='5697210' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:03 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697157' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:55 PM']
[quote name='Pipes' post='5697018' date='Oct 10 2006, 02:35 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5696956' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:29 PM']
[quote name='BGP' post='5696899' date='Oct 10 2006, 02:24 PM']
I disagree with getting rid of homework. Among the homework I had in elementary school:

+ math: memorizing times tables, etc, using flash cards.
+ math: worksheets of problems to solve like long division.
+ book reports: We had a book report due every two weeks - we had to pick a book from the school library to read and report on.
+ spelling: memorizing words
+ history: reading texts, taking notes
+ english: learning the formalities of the language like subjects and predicates, verbs, objects, pronouns, tenses, etc. Having homework assigned to identify these things in a given text.

I don't see the harm in any of this. A little less TV and more studies is a good thing.[/quote]

Shouldn't that all be done IN CLASS, not OUT OF CLASS though?

Edit: if the answer is "NO" then why have teachers?
[/quote]

You can't become proficient with complex subjects like calculus by just sitting in class and following a teacher as he/she goes through problems. If you can then you're smarter than most of us.
[/quote]

Long division is complex? I am going by the list above.
[/quote]

When I was in third grade it was for me... I guess i'm not as smart as the average FFAer... Makes me wonder how I managed to graduate college as an engineer...
[/quote]



Ok so the more important question is should the teacher teach you how to do long division or simply show you once and have your parent's help you at home?
[/quote]

The teacher should teach it to you, but there is a limit to how much teaching the teacher can do before they have to move on for the rest of the class. If in that time you are not able to grasp the concept, and can't figure out the homework you have 4 options, fail, your parents can help if they can, off hours with the teacher, or a tutor.
[/quote]

I understand all of this but if you master a particular subject or something you are doing at the time, why should you waste an hour of busy work at home when you may need help in other subjects?

Example: You are grandmaster at long division but you stink in Spanish translation. So your math teacher assigns you about an hour of doing long division problems while you have Spanish HW on top of that. This doesn't even cover your Physics and English homework. So, why waste time on your long division HW when you are the master at it when you need to spend your time in Spanish, Physics, and English? How does this help you one bit?
[/quote]

That gets into the amount of homework assigned per class, which as I have stated in this thread earlier can be an issue also.

I would say spending an hour on something you are the master of is exactly a waste of time, and an unreasonable amount of homework. This isn't a metric that teachers can necessarily use, but for a student that is a master of a certain subject, I would think on average an assignment that takes more then 20 minutes would be busywork and a waste of their time. As for people that say even 20 minutes is a waste, live with it, it's school, just like work, sometimes you have to do pointless stuff, in this case, the reason would be because it would take a teacher too much time to tailor their class perfectly for each student, such is life.
[/quote]

If school's had HW voluntary then it would be left up to the student's and their parents. And for the people who rolleyes on this think about it, there's a lot of bad student's who simply DON'T do HW at all and get bad grades as a result. Forcing student's to do HW I don't think makes them any better students.
[/quote]This is the operative phrase in this paragraph.

By making it voluntary you guarantee the underachievers will continue to underachieve (a process that typically begins in the home), by making it mandatory and establishing consequences for their actions (failing grades) you teach them about accountability and responsibility and maybe you reach a few of the underachievers and get them to change their habits. Some children will always underachieve, or achieve at a lower level if you prefer, but some simply haven't been taught any other way.

Sure it is. And its a real life skill learned via school that I use everyday. A skill I use alot more often then the "new" things I learned during Advanced Trig class time.

The major skill that I think homework, or at least work out of class, is necessary to build is writing. Term papers, short compositions etc.

[quote name='Chaka' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:32 PM' post='5697397']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697356' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:26 AM']
[quote name='The Tick' post='5697334' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:23 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697298' date='Oct 10 2006, 04:16 PM']
[quote name='The Tick' post='5697281' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:12 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697226' date='Oct 10 2006, 04:05 PM']
[quote name='The Tick' post='5697210' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:03 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697157' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:55 PM']
[quote name='Pipes' post='5697018' date='Oct 10 2006, 02:35 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5696956' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:29 PM']
[quote name='BGP' post='5696899' date='Oct 10 2006, 02:24 PM']
I disagree with getting rid of homework. Among the homework I had in elementary school:

+ math: memorizing times tables, etc, using flash cards.
+ math: worksheets of problems to solve like long division.
+ book reports: We had a book report due every two weeks - we had to pick a book from the school library to read and report on.
+ spelling: memorizing words
+ history: reading texts, taking notes
+ english: learning the formalities of the language like subjects and predicates, verbs, objects, pronouns, tenses, etc. Having homework assigned to identify these things in a given text.

I don't see the harm in any of this. A little less TV and more studies is a good thing.
[/quote]

Shouldn't that all be done IN CLASS, not OUT OF CLASS though?

Edit: if the answer is "NO" then why have teachers?
[/quote]

You can't become proficient with complex subjects like calculus by just sitting in class and following a teacher as he/she goes through problems. If you can then you're smarter than most of us.
[/quote]

Long division is complex? I am going by the list above.
[/quote]

When I was in third grade it was for me... I guess i'm not as smart as the average FFAer... Makes me wonder how I managed to graduate college as an engineer...
[/quote]



Ok so the more important question is should the teacher teach you how to do long division or simply show you once and have your parent's help you at home?
[/quote]

The teacher should teach it to you, but there is a limit to how much teaching the teacher can do before they have to move on for the rest of the class. If in that time you are not able to grasp the concept, and can't figure out the homework you have 4 options, fail, your parents can help if they can, off hours with the teacher, or a tutor.
[/quote]

I understand all of this but if you master a particular subject or something you are doing at the time, why should you waste an hour of busy work at home when you may need help in other subjects?

Example: You are grandmaster at long division but you stink in Spanish translation. So your math teacher assigns you about an hour of doing long division problems while you have Spanish HW on top of that. This doesn't even cover your Physics and English homework. So, why waste time on your long division HW when you are the master at it when you need to spend your time in Spanish, Physics, and English? How does this help you one bit?
[/quote]

That gets into the amount of homework assigned per class, which as I have stated in this thread earlier can be an issue also.

I would say spending an hour on something you are the master of is exactly a waste of time, and an unreasonable amount of homework. This isn't a metric that teachers can necessarily use, but for a student that is a master of a certain subject, I would think on average an assignment that takes more then 20 minutes would be busywork and a waste of their time. As for people that say even 20 minutes is a waste, live with it, it's school, just like work, sometimes you have to do pointless stuff, in this case, the reason would be because it would take a teacher too much time to tailor their class perfectly for each student, such is life.
[/quote]

If school's had HW voluntary then it would be left up to the student's and their parents. And for the people who rolleyes on this think about it, there's a lot of bad student's who simply DON'T do HW at all and get bad grades as a result. Forcing student's to do HW I don't think makes them any better students.
[/quote]This is the operative phrase in this paragraph.

By making it voluntary you guarantee the underachievers will continue to underachieve (a process that typically begins in the home), by making it mandatory and establishing consequences for their actions (failing grades) you teach them about accountability and responsibility and maybe you reach a few of the underachievers and get them to change their habits. Some children will always underachieve, or achieve at a lower level if you prefer, but some simply haven't been taught any other way.
[/quote]

I disagree but even if I agreed, so the people who know it already should be punished? People who underachieve still do so with HW assigned. They either skip it or cheat and copy off someone else.


I just remember getting some bad grades in HW assignments not because I didn't know how to do it but because I had not only practice (sports) after class and then focused on HW in classes where I needed help. So my choice at a certain point later at night was to get decent amount of sleep or simply skip it. When I skiped it I got a bad mark on the HW which is lame.

[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697369' date='Oct 10 2006, 04:29 PM'][quote name='Chaka' post='5697313' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:20 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697302' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:17 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697285' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:13 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697269' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:11 AM']
[quote name='Chaka' post='5697255' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:09 PM']
[quote name='RKMoney' post='5697236' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:06 AM']
[quote name='IvanKaramazov' post='5697230' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:05 PM']
[quote name='Disco Stu' post='5697145' date='Oct 10 2006, 03:54 PM']
Calculus is a good example of something that shouldn't be brought home. We did most/all of our calculus work in class, helping each other, with the teacher closely supervising and helping when needed.

Bring calculus home and the vast majority of students are on their own. Most parents simply aren't capable of helping.[/quote]

I disagree 100% with this. Math (and particularly higher math) is definitely an area where I think homework would be quite helpful. Students learn from wrestling with problems on their own and/or drilling on basic mechanics.

That's how I learned calculus, and I'm sure I'm not alone on that. Profs are great for explaining the theory/intuition behind mathematical concepts, but its really up to the student to get the mechanics down on their own.
[/quote]

But why make student's do homework? What if someone was an ace at calculus? Does that mean they need to waste their time doing it?
[/quote]It is difficult to set different standards for each students in a class. Would you rather other students receive less education because others are superior in a subject?
[/quote]

That's why you should make it voluntary. If you need additonal help then it's there, if not then no need to waste your time. Teach student's to be responsible and accountability.
[/quote]

That's a brilliant plan. I guess it's a good way to weed out the self-starters from the future ditch diggers. Heaven forbid we wouldn't want someone to learn they can achieve more if they actually work hard.
[/quote]
[/quote]How exactly? By making homework voluntary? Why not make X-Box an elective while we're at it?
[/quote]

Responsibility --> Student's who need HW will ask for it and then take it home and do it themselves. It's up to them if they need more work on a particular subject. Someone can drop out and go to war but not responsible enough to know if they need more HW or not?

Accountability ---> need more help in a subject but skipped getting HW and as a result got a bad grade on the test? You should be held accountable for your actions, just like in life.
[/quote]

I really disagree with your argument, but those are two of my favortie words in the english language. There is not enough of either taught to childeren, but I don't think homework as optional is the way to do it.

I agree that HW is important but it totally depends on what it is.

This guy get's it.