Anybody else see any of the Minnesota game? Greenway consistently lined up on the strong side. He and Henderson were the nickel backers. And yes, Leber played, he was the "Will"

NFL Gamebook had him at "Sam"

Minnesota vs Seattle

I never seen anything about Minny moving Greenway.

Reeaally?

I was going to argue that the Tampa-2 playbook has a few fronts where the Will in name aligns to the strong side of the formation, similar to what we've suggested might be going on in Cincinnati. This smells totally different.

Nice that he'll be the nickel backer if this holds, since we've seen some LOLB/SLBs have value in every down roles.

Good pickup Rozelle.

Jene, do you think this is one of those cases where we knew it before Chad did?

Wow, thanks for the heads up here. I was seriously pissed off when i missed Greenway in round 18 of a dynasty draft last month by 2 picks and "settled" on Bernard Pollard, guess things worked out in this case.

Buzzkill for Greenway owners if the move to SLB sticks.

Probably not. I think the Gamebook depth charts have some connection to some version of some semi-official depth chart. They aren't always 100% correct -- i.e. Donnie Edwards c.2005 -- but this one seems different. I'm not fully convinced this is real and permanent, but it's worth watching pretty closely obviously.

Any Viking homers out there know what's going on with Greenway?

Played "Sam" again. Can't believe their going to keep him there, what a waste. Greenway much better when he's free. This is baffling.

I'm confused as well. The Vikings LB corps has looked quite poor thus far and I attribute it to the reshuffling. This makes zero sense.

Any news here?

just speculation, but i think of greenway as being a better athlete than leber... its very possible he could be a better WLB or SLB...

since MIN is so good against the run already (things can change fast in the NFL, but at least they have been recently with most of the same cast coming back... allen was added at DE, dwight smith went to DET, madeiu williams was added in FA & tyrell johnson in draft) but has been statistically much worse against the pass... maybe they think if greenway can control the TE better than leber, it would make their overall pass coverage better without hurting the run defense too much?

without looking it up, isn't greenway about 235-240? not huge for a SLB, but there are certainly others around the league that play the position at that weight, & play it well...

Unfortunitly I don't know any more than the rest of you about what is going on here.

It could be something they are just trying in preseason to get the LBers experience playing all 3 positions because that is something they have done before. Or the change may be permanent.

The WLB should be the LBer with the best pusuit and cover ability. I think that is Greenway so the move doesen't make sense. I could see them flipping if they want Greenway to play more coverage on the TE against some teams and maybe that is something they are working on that will be used situationally during the season.

But all of this is just speculation on my part and I don't expect the coaching staff to say anything to explain it. They are pretty secretive.

Can we put another ticket in to MFL asking them to look into it?

I emailed Judd Zulgad of the Star Tribune, who co-writes the Strib's Vikings blog, and he said the following: "My understanding is the Vikings consider Greenway to be the strong-side linebacker but that the way it looks he ends up on the weak side." I requested clarification (haven't heard back)--I think he means he'll start at SLB but end up the season at WLB, but I'm not sure.

Bob's point about improving TE pass coverage might reflect what the Vikes are thinking here, but it's hard to figure this out. Too much uncertainty for CG to stay on my dynasty squad...

I think that what this quote means is that he's the strong side backer according to the Vikings scheme, but sometimes due to the way the offense lines up or shifts he ends up on what appears to be the weak side.

Basically I think it confirms that he's the Sam.

This is correct.

It's essentially the same situation we saw with Brandon Johnson etal and the Bengals. When some of these teams run an overshifted front, they'll stack the "WLB" behind the strength of the defensive line, although it's opposite the TE in a position some playbooks would call a SLB.



The theory is that the closed end (opposite TE), undertackle, nose tackle and MLB should draw the bulk of the offense's attention from TE to C. The WLB is stacked and relatively protected to flow to the ball. Not every team would align this way, but this is a common feature of the Tampa-2 playbooks.

This doesn't make sense. Vikings consider Greenway to be the strong-side linebacker but that the way it looks he ends up on the weak side. I'm confused. If it read ... Vikings consider Greenway to be the weak-side linebacker but that the way it looks he ends up on the strong side, then it would make sense.

without looking it up, isn't greenway about 235-240?

He goes around 242 Bob

No, I think the quote reads correctly. Looking at the diagram above, the "SLB" is aligned across from what most would call the weak side of the offensive formation, hence he's considered the "SLB" aligning on the weak side of the defense. And I've yet to see the Vikings, but that would mean that Greenway would be over the TE when the Vikings align in an underfront.

FWIW, this is also what we heard about Cato June last summer when he moved on to Tampa from the Bucs' GM.

K ... Jene. I'm going record this next game and watch it very close, hopefully game will be in HD.

Greenway lining up over TE first series... Im not liking this.

Just now realized game was on and didn't have it set to record, however Diego is on top of his game. Go Diego Go

Deep inside the jungle where nature is running wild
Coming to the rescue is a very special child

Better than the WonderPets. Sewiously.

Oh, and Greenway's a SLB. No question about it.

If he keeps going 5-1 in 3 quarters nobody will care what they list him as. Great athletes make plays, his tackle numbers may suffer a little, but I am willing to bet he makes it up in big plays.

Jene unless things have changed dramaticly in the cover 2 defense the alignment you are showing is not what I am used to seeing from the Monte Kiffin and Tony Dungy cover 2 defense at all. The under tackle from what I have seen ushually lines up on the right side of the offensive line in between the LG and LT and will penetrate that gap. The NT will line up between the C and RG to eat up both of those blockers and more tries to control that gap rather than penetrate. The NT will line up a bit askew of the C so that he can engage the C right away and control the flow of the play and that gap, which also keeps the C from moving out on the MLB or helping against the UT if they are running a play to the weak side. The RG is ushually forced into a double team on the NT as the C is at a disadvantage against the NT from this angle due to having to snap the ball and the leverage the NT has to shift the C out of that gap.



The under tackle being between the LG and LT can do a variety of things. Penetrate the gap between the LG and LT making them choose which one blocks him, engage the LT allowing the RDE to come free or take on the LG one on one (because the NT is keeping the C from helping the LG out against the UT).

The WLB is free to make plays so often in pursuit in this alignment because of how those 3 linemen are shifted to the weak side of the line. The LT must deal with the RDE or the RDE will penetrate the play right away. This becomes hard for the LT to do when the UT is chipping/engaging the LT also. The LG must deal with the UT unless they have a TE or RB assigned to the weak side. I have seen the LG engage the MLB on plays when the LT is taking responsibility for the UT and they are giving a mismatch to the RDE by only using a RB or TE on the weak side to block him. Of course the offense ushually only does this when they are calling strong side plays or using a roll out to the strong side. The Center must deal with the NT at least for the 1st 2 seconds after the snap. The NT may be let go after those inital 2 seconds (if the RG has him) allowing the C to either help against the UT or get out on the MLB.

The SLB on the other hand is often at a disadvantage and needs to be a larger player because of how often the SLB must take on linemen due to how the Dline lines up. That RT sometimes gets covered by the LDE (especially on run downs) but not always as the LDE may be trying to pass rush around the RT (often) So the SLB on run plays almost always is getting engaged by either the RG, the RT or the TE and sometimes is getting double teamed or chipped by an extra blocker when runs are called to the strong side.

Depending on how the NT plays has A LOT to do with which players will have to deal with the other blockers. Sometimes the MLB ends up having to take on a guard or the center on a slower developing play as the NT will engage the Center but will not normally stay with the Center but instead either penetrate or shift back to his left to control that gap between the RG and C. Like I said this often results in the NT being double teamed by the C and RG as they do not want the NT to penetrate the play too quickly when he is so close to the ball and the QB-C exchange.

Now maybe what I am talking about is called a Under front and maybe that is only one of the ways that the Cover 2 will line up. But from my expereince of many years of watching this defense (Kiffin and Dungy with the Vikings to Dungy/Kiffin with the Bucs and Warren Sapp until now) the under front as I am describing it was the most common way that the defense would line up.

When I watch the Bears and Vikings now (both Dungy cover 2 schemes) I see Harris and Kevin Williams almost always line up next to the RDE not the LDE. And because of what I have described above it is very critical where the NT and UT line up because so much of the scheme is dependent on what those 2 players are doing. Everything else flows from that.

Also because of what I have described that is why the WLB is so often so free to make plays while the SLB and MLB have to deal with a lot more blockers than the WLB ever does.

hmmm trying to fix the diagram to show what I am talking about..

Yep. The diagrams I added are an over front and meant to illustrate what the confusing quotes in the thread were talking about. Every over-under team runs one front more than the other. If you're using a lot of Tampa-2, you'll be using mostly underfronts, always on passing downs and more often than not (depending on your line personnel) on rushing downs.

I probably shouldn't have called the three-technique tackle an undertackle in my diagram, but that's how Kiffin refers to that player in his playbook -- probably for simplicity.

There's an extensive discussion of the under front in the Tampa-2 thread that mirrors many of your points linked in my sig.

Unfortunitly I have not been able to see many Vikings games because AFN does not show them. The Armed Forces Network prefers the Cowboys and teams like the Patriots for most of thier coverage.

If Greenway is the SLB his chances to make plays takes a huge hit for sure. And Leber if he is playing WLB will get a boost in opportunity.

I have noticed from the box scores that Ernie Henderson has played a lot but I don't know from which position he is playing.

Fixed.

Sorry, I'm from Maryland and it was bothering me.

My bad I like the name Ernie better than Erin even though Erin is my cousins name.

How about if you saw the game or know something about the player you provide something more useful that what the guys 1st name is though?

Just a thought.

I believe I saw him lining up at WILL.

Dude you got the name wrong, shouldn't criticize somebody for not providing more information when you didn't even get the name right. :-(

It's ok.

In his defense it's not like there's two E. Henderson's on the team.

Sure no one has ever done that before when thinking about a 1000 things and mentioning a obscure player. And I am totally ######ed for thinking Ernie instead of Erin.

But at least I am not some smug person who insinuates that they know about a player and then doesen't say anything useful about their knowledge of that player, instead choosing to keep that information to themselves and only ridicule a ####### like me who is trying to find out more about what is going on with my favorite team that I can never see because I am stuck here in Iraq.

All right everybody. That'll be enough. Keep it on topic please.

So basically what does this all mean for the value of Chad Greenway? Will he drop down in the rankings - or will he be able to make up for lack of tackles with the big plays - what are his stats for the 1st three games vs whoever was playing at "WIL"?

No one is trying to come down on your for mentioning the wrong player. No at at all. It's not what we do here. That's why I preempted my comment with a "sorry," in hope's it would not offend you.

If you dig a little deeper you'll see I WAS trying to keep it on topic so you could get your best possible answer here. I figured there would be people out there who would think you were referencing E.J. as Ernie. I wanted to make sure the answer you got was the one you wanted.

I'm sorry you're stuck in Iraq. I wish you all the luck and health there.

I reviewed some of the highlights from the Vikes games and it does look like Erin was at WILL. It's a little harder for me to decipher since Pittsburgh was in a lot of 3 WR sets. So you have an educated guess there.

For the record E.J. is Eric.

Biabreakable, I really wasn't trying to offend you. Know that!

For me, it puts him in the same category that Michael Boley and Derrick Johnson and David Thornton live in -- a "SLB" who won't have to face quite as much blocking as the usual SLB -- rather than the potential elite tier that a Tampa-2 WLB often fits in.

LB3 with some upside rather than LB2+.

Is ERIN HENDERSON worth grabbing in deeper leagues? Every box score I see he is at or near the top in tackles.

With only Ben Leber standing in his way it's not a bad flyer to take.

Per Rotoworld...

The Vikings have re-inserted WLB Chad Greenway into their nickel package.

SLB Ben Leber will likely come off on passing downs. Greenway isn't wearing the defensive headset (MLB E.J. Henderson is), but could be the second option to do so if Henderson gets hurt. Greenway is an every-down linebacker.

That comment by Rotoworld is NOT necessarily true. The source actually said that Greenway played in the nickel in the preseason, but that the defensive coordinator said it would be like it was before.

There is a link that accompanies this story and it does not say that Greenway is going to be the nickel back. I really do not know how Rotoworld got that from the story. They have been absolutely terrible this year with their take on things.

Link to original source

bumpy bump bump.


Lets follow where Greenway lines up.

Greenway played WLB and led the team in tackles with 6 solo and 2 assists. Not bad considering the Vikings won TOP 32 minutes to the Packers 28 minutes.

The Packers had 49 total plays of offesne. The RBs ran 19 times Rodgers added 8 more plays that were called runs.

I'm pretty sure Greenway played "Sam". Minnesota opened the game in nickel, he lined up on the weak-side. When the Vikes are in nickel, at times he lines up weak-side. WTS, Greenway will be the exception, not the rule in terms of "Sam" backers IDP scoring. With Minnesota being so difficult to run on, they could be in nickel alot.

Minnesota Vikings @ Green Bay Packers

That's not what I saw. On nearly every play the Packers aligned in an I-formation, Greenway aligned to the TE side.

Based on these clips http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter?game_id=2954...=tab_gamecenter Greenway is playing on the weak side of the formation.

Interesting that the Vikings started and played a lot of nickle. All I have seen are these clips. I wasn't able to see the whole game.

I can clearly make out only one base defensive play in the either highlight sequence. It's at the 2:31 mark of the first video and Greenway (#52) is clearly on the strong side. Other than one other base defensive play (the long pass to Jennings), I think the Vikings are in a nickel defense in every other play in those highlights. The second linebacker in the nickel is often aligned to the weak side on most teams. In a number of the highlights in those videos, it was Ben Leber on the field rather than Greenway.

I didn't noticed that, sometimes it's difficult to tell the two apart. Wish this game was on Shortcuts, it's much easier to breakdown.