Stat Question - I think I was robbed of a week 1 win, commish disagree (2 Viewers)

[SaintsInDome2006]

So the way our league is set up, D/ST is a single entity and they score as a team - ie, if Julian Edelman runs a punt back for a TD, the NE DST would get 6 points.

I started Welker last week, and our site docked him 2 points for the muffed punt. I lost the game by 1 point. I called our commish and he said he accepts whatever the website does. I argued that in no way should a guy receive negative points on a play where there was no possibility for him to get any positive points. Do I have a legit gripe, and if so, what have folks done in the past when something like this happens? It's a $250 buy in league and 4 teams make the playoffs, so there isn't much room for losses and I certainly don't want to take one that isn't justified. Thoughts?

You might be interested in this discussion from last year:

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=669333&hl=edelman

Edelman recovered a fumble for a TD on ST (kickoff) and it did not count for him but rather for ST play.

You have to look at the actual league rules - actually go find them on your league site and see what they say. It;s not a site thing, it's a rules thing. The site just tells you how the points awards are set up. But the league rules should always govern.

 

[Cyclones]

So the way our league is set up, D/ST is a single entity and they score as a team - ie, if Julian Edelman runs a punt back for a TD, the NE DST would get 6 points.

I started Welker last week, and our site docked him 2 points for the muffed punt. I lost the game by 1 point. I called our commish and he said he accepts whatever the website does. I argued that in no way should a guy receive negative points on a play where there was no possibility for him to get any positive points. Do I have a legit gripe, and if so, what have folks done in the past when something like this happens? It's a $250 buy in league and 4 teams make the playoffs, so there isn't much room for losses and I certainly don't want to take one that isn't justified. Thoughts?

You might be interested in this discussion from last year:

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=669333&hl=edelman

Edelman recovered a fumble for a TD on ST (kickoff) and it did not count for him but rather for ST play.

You have to look at the actual league rules - actually go find them on your league site and see what they say.

I did, posted them above as pulled from the site.

 

[Ksquared]

This conversation has been going around the league rules and website capabilities, but I believe Welker never had possession of the punt...correct. If this is the case, I don't care what the website's explanations for the way they scored. By NFL rules that is a muff and cannot be advanced by the punting team. Last year there was a very long thread on this distinction over a play that occurred in a game (not about whether it was scored as a fumble), but I am not finding that thread with the search. The conclusion was a muff is not a fumble by NFL rule - maybe for stat purposes the NFL uses a fumble to represent the play, but I am certain it is not a fumble by rule.

(looks like Saints in Dome found the thread)

 

[Steeler]

For anyone who is saying "there should be a rule change for the following season," you're missing the point. The rules are fine as is - individuals aren't counted as part of defense or special teams play. That part is clear - Special teams or defensive TDs are scored as part of DST. If Welker had run the punt back for a TD, the Denver DST would have been credited 6 points (there are no points for yardage.)

The issue here is the fact that the software on the website is scoring in contradiction to the rules. Since there is no test environment for said software, there was no way to realize this would happen before it actually did.

And this isn't about what the NFL differentiates as a fumble either - the NFL doesn't award the Texans 2 points for a sack, but my league does. That argument is just silly.

I agree with you and think the 2 points should be awarded to your team since the website calculated the score different from what your league rules state.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

So essentially it was probably a bad rule setup that should have been caught by myself (or someone else) before the season started. I can live with that, just frustrating to know that I have a guy out there returning kicks with nothing but downside. I guess we will correct next year.

As for rules, it shows

Fumbles lost (-2) points under the heading "Receiving Rules." In my opinion since Welker wasn't acting as a receiver during the play, that shouldn't count against him.

There is nothing defined under special teams regarding negative points at all.

Special Teams Rules

Category Special Teams Rule Modified Kickoff Return Touchdowns 1 rule defined:

For position: Def/STs

• 6.0 point(s) for each kickoff return touchdown

9/5/2012 9:31 pm Punt Return Touchdowns 1 rule defined:

For position: Def/STs

• 6.0 point(s) for each punt return touchdown

9/5/2012 9:31 pm Length of Kickoff Return Touchdowns No rules defined. Length of Punt Return Touchdowns No rules defined. Total Punt Return Yardage No rules defined. Total Kickoff Return Yardage No rules defined. Total Combined Kickoff And Punt Return Yardage No rules defined.

Ok. Yeah, I don't see where he would lose 2 points. That stuff drives me nuts. Maybe the site screwed up. I think CBS at least has a help board where you can post questions like this to the site directly, the commish may be copied too.

How about blocked punts and blocked kicks? I always thought those should generate points but they're typically left out.

ETA:

Ok wait - you have to go to the stats:

http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=330905007

If you look you see that the official stat has Welker losing a fumble. - That's why the site did what it did, it's just plugging in numbers.

Personally to me the rules should control over the site. You could wait a day or so and see if it gets adjusted back.

The reality is though that people don't appreciate these fineries, you're likely to get some pushback from your leaguemates is my guess.

ETA(2): This almost affected my game last week - I ended up winning 112-109.4 vs my opponent who had Welker, if the lost fumble is credited back to him the final is 112.0-111.4.

 

[KCitons]

Play IDP. Each person scores (or loses) points on his own merit. Problem solved.

 

[Cyclones]

Play IDP. Each person scores (or loses) points on his own merit. Problem solved.

I agree and prefer IDP but this doesn't really add to the discussion in this scenario. Can you post more who's hottest pics please?

 

[Joe Summer]

How would your league have scored that play if the internet didn't exist?

 

[ffinmyblood]

Play IDP. Each person scores (or loses) points on his own merit. Problem solved.

This X 1000. Not only that, but don't SUBTRACT points for any scoring category. Amongst alot of dumb rules in fantasy leagues nowdays as opposed to the (olden days of FF) subtracting points for anything(Fumbles, INT's etc etc) is as dumb of a rule as their is. I hate that EVERY league does this now. Someone let me know the next time the Saints or any NFL team LOSES points for fumble or INT whatever.

 

[Joe Summer]

Play IDP. Each person scores (or loses) points on his own merit. Problem solved.

This X 1000. Not only that, but don't SUBTRACT points for any scoring category. Amongst alot of dumb rules in fantasy leagues nowdays as opposed to the (olden days of FF) subtracting points for anything(Fumbles, INT's etc etc) is as dumb of a rule as their is. I hate that EVERY league does this now. Someone let me know the next time the Saints or any NFL team LOSES points for fumble or INT whatever.

Someone let me know the next time any NFL team is awarded points for yardage.

 

[Leonidas]

^^ There's your answer.

The NFL and the stat book don't differentiate how a fumble happened. So you own the player -- you own the fumble.

Yup

 

[KCitons]

Play IDP. Each person scores (or loses) points on his own merit. Problem solved.

I agree and prefer IDP but this doesn't really add to the discussion in this scenario. Can you post more who's hottest pics please?

Just showing the other side of the coin. When us IDPers were complaining about position changes by MFL, there were some commenting that we shouldn't play IDP.

I ran out of hot pictures to post. I may have to hunt some up.

 

[OG_GF]

How is it a fumbleif he never has posession? A muffed KR and a fumble are 2 different things.

 

[rizzler]

How is it a fumbleif he never has posession? A muffed KR and a fumble are 2 different things.

says you or the nfl rule book?

 

[OG_GF]

How is it a fumbleif he never has posession? A muffed KR and a fumble are 2 different things.

says you or the nfl rule book?

Both.

 

[rizzler]

How is it a fumbleif he never has posession? A muffed KR and a fumble are 2 different things.

says you or the nfl rule book?

Both.

so the nfl stat sheets say "muffed kr" and not "fumble"?

 

[OG_GF]

How is it a fumbleif he never has posession? A muffed KR and a fumble are 2 different things.

says you or the nfl rule book?

Both.

so the nfl stat sheets say "muffed kr" and not "fumble"?

Maybe not, but it should. By rule it is a different thing. For a player to fumble, first they have to have posession. What if it just touches a player that was not trying to catch the ball. Is that a fumble too?

 

[rizzler]

How is it a fumbleif he never has posession? A muffed KR and a fumble are 2 different things.

says you or the nfl rule book?

Both.

so the nfl stat sheets say "muffed kr" and not "fumble"?

Maybe not, but it should. By rule it is a different thing. For a player to fumble, first they have to have posession. What if it just touches a player that was not trying to catch the ball. Is that a fumble too?

according to NFL rules, yes

 

[Tool]

You have a very legitimate gripe. I'm just not sure what can be done because the other person you played has a pretty legitimate gripe if overturned. You may just have to eat this one unless you can convince the people in your league otherwise. Maybe there's a way to call it a tie or something.

 

[Johnny Blood]

So the way our league is set up, D/ST is a single entity and they score as a team - ie, if Julian Edelman runs a punt back for a TD, the NE DST would get 6 points.

I started Welker last week, and our site docked him 2 points for the muffed punt. I lost the game by 1 point. I called our commish and he said he accepts whatever the website does. I argued that in no way should a guy receive negative points on a play where there was no possibility for him to get any positive points.

You have not established the player can't get any positive points. You've only claimed that his D/ST will also get his positive points.

If the player can get positive points, the status quo makes sense.

If the player can't get positive points, the status quo does not make sense and should be changed. Next season.

 

[OG_GF]

How is it a fumbleif he never has posession? A muffed KR and a fumble are 2 different things.

says you or the nfl rule book?

Both.

so the nfl stat sheets say "muffed kr" and not "fumble"?

Maybe not, but it should. By rule it is a different thing. For a player to fumble, first they have to have posession. What if it just touches a player that was not trying to catch the ball. Is that a fumble too?

according to NFL rules, yes

Umm ... wrong. Maybe according to that report it is, but by rule it is not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muffed_punt

 

[rizzler]

How is it a fumbleif he never has posession? A muffed KR and a fumble are 2 different things.

says you or the nfl rule book?

Both.

so the nfl stat sheets say "muffed kr" and not "fumble"?

Maybe not, but it should. By rule it is a different thing. For a player to fumble, first they have to have posession. What if it just touches a player that was not trying to catch the ball. Is that a fumble too?

according to NFL rules, yes

Umm ... wrong. Maybe according to that report it is, but by rule it is not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muffed_punt

wikipedia v how the nfl rules it

Ill go with the latter. it's statted as a fumble.

 

[KingPrawn]

When the rules were set up for your league, was it intended that fumbles on special teams be negative points for the player? A computer and website should never determine the outcome. Commissioner's role is to do what's right, regardless of the website. To do otherwise is wimping out on his duties.

 

[OG_GF]

How is it a fumbleif he never has posession? A muffed KR and a fumble are 2 different things.

says you or the nfl rule book?

Both.

so the nfl stat sheets say "muffed kr" and not "fumble"?

Maybe not, but it should. By rule it is a different thing. For a player to fumble, first they have to have posession. What if it just touches a player that was not trying to catch the ball. Is that a fumble too?

according to NFL rules, yes

Umm ... wrong. Maybe according to that report it is, but by rule it is not.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muffed_punt

wikipedia v how the nfl rules it

Ill go with the latter. it's statted as a fumble.

Show me where in the NFL rules it says it is a fumble.

 

[rizzler]

How is it a fumbleif he never has posession? A muffed KR and a fumble are 2 different things.

says you or the nfl rule book?

Both.

so the nfl stat sheets say "muffed kr" and not "fumble"?

Maybe not, but it should. By rule it is a different thing. For a player to fumble, first they have to have posession. What if it just touches a player that was not trying to catch the ball. Is that a fumble too?

according to NFL rules, yes

Umm ... wrong. Maybe according to that report it is, but by rule it is not.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muffed_punt

wikipedia v how the nfl rules it

Ill go with the latter. it's statted as a fumble.

Show me where in the NFL rules it says it is a fumble.

how does the NFL stat it?

 

[OG_GF]

How is it a fumbleif he never has posession? A muffed KR and a fumble are 2 different things.

says you or the nfl rule book?

Both.

so the nfl stat sheets say "muffed kr" and not "fumble"?

Maybe not, but it should. By rule it is a different thing. For a player to fumble, first they have to have posession. What if it just touches a player that was not trying to catch the ball. Is that a fumble too?

according to NFL rules, yes

Umm ... wrong. Maybe according to that report it is, but by rule it is not.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muffed_punt

wikipedia v how the nfl rules it

Ill go with the latter. it's statted as a fumble.

Show me where in the NFL rules it says it is a fumble.

how does the NFL stat it?

Ok, clearly you just want to argue for the sake of arguing. If you want to claim that the NFL rule is a muffed KR is a fumble, show me that rule. You can't because it isn't. I provided you with a link.

 

[chickensoup]

When the rules were set up for your league, was it intended that fumbles on special teams be negative points for the player? A computer and website should never determine the outcome. Commissioner's role is to do what's right, regardless of the website. To do otherwise is wimping out on his duties.

Pretty much this. When your league uses non-standard scoring rules he should be ready to put these kinds of fires out quickly. To me it seems messed up that a player can only receive negative points on any given play. I bet besides the guy who won, everyone in your league agrees with this as well. There should never at any time be a point where having a player on the field with the possibility of scoring points can only result in negative points for your fantasy team. It makes no sense to have it that way.Unless this is a long standing league with friends you don't see often, if this isn't resolved in your favor I would leave after this year, even if they agree to change it after this year. The commish is too afraid to do the right thing frankly. The website is not meeting the intent of the rule and noone who plays fantasy football downgrades a player because they return kickoffs or punts because it would be stupid to. I have a feeling that if this wouldn't change who wins it would have been fixed already, which is the tell take sign of a spineless commish following the "don't change the rules in the middle of the year" dogma when this clearly is outside of that rule

 

[rizzler]

Ok, clearly you just want to argue for the sake of arguing. If you want to claim that the NFL rule is a muffed KR is a fumble, show me that rule. You can't because it isn't. I provided you with a link.

No, Im telling you it gets statted as a fumble.

 

[OG_GF]

Ok, clearly you just want to argue for the sake of arguing. If you want to claim that the NFL rule is a muffed KR is a fumble, show me that rule. You can't because it isn't. I provided you with a link.

No, Im telling you it gets statted as a fumble.

And I'm telling you that it shouldn't, because PER THE NFL RULES it is not a fumble. If an NFL stat report said the sky was green, that does not make the sky green.

 

[silentcoach]

You have a very legitimate gripe. I'm just not sure what can be done because the other person you played has a pretty legitimate gripe if overturned. You may just have to eat this one unless you can convince the people in your league otherwise. Maybe there's a way to call it a tie or something.

if this is overturned based on an incorrect score, the other owner has NO gripe. If the scoring was wrong, it does not matter that he "thought he won" because he actually never "really" won.

The welker owner should be awarded the +2 pts.

It makes ZERO sense that Welker would only be able to get negative points, and not benefit from any yardage or tds if he did well (which is all awarded to the DEF/ST). It's called common sense.

Who cares what the score was. If team A had 1000000 pts and B had 2 pts, I'd still feel the same way. Whether a score adjustment affects the outcome is irrelevant. (1) What is the rule? (2)What is the spirit of the rule? There is your answer.

 

[rizzler]

Ok, clearly you just want to argue for the sake of arguing. If you want to claim that the NFL rule is a muffed KR is a fumble, show me that rule. You can't because it isn't. I provided you with a link.

No, Im telling you it gets statted as a fumble.

And I'm telling you that it shouldn't, because PER THE NFL RULES it is not a fumble. If an NFL stat report said the sky was green, that does not make the sky green.

So you're arguing what you think it should be, as opposed to what the league says it is when they stat it

How is this a discussion?

 

[bagger]

This would have been a great thing to recognize and fix before the season started. If a guy fumbles, he fumbles, and it counts against him. Sucks for you but that's the way the rules were written, and the season started.

Except that it shows a penalty of -2 points under "Receiving Rules." There is a separate rules section for passing, rushing, receiving, defense, special teams, and kicking. I think the rule reads that there shouldn't be a -2 in that case and the site is calculating the penalty in contradiction to the way the rules are written.

if i was commish i would edit the scoring setup as it seems that wasnt the intent, reverse the outcome.

 

[silentcoach]

Yes. People are scared to change the outcome because it potentially changes a L to a W and a W to a L, but that does not matter. What is the intent of the rule? It's clear.

Welker owner should get his 2 pts. If that +2 ends up causing an owner to win and another to lose, so be it.

 

[gsmayes]

As far as I'm concerned, I pay a website and setup the scoring rules, the website compiles stats and calculates the scores. The website is the rules. MFL does a preliminary score after the games are finished, then a final game result Thursday including their stat corrections. Why would I have a separate set of scoring rules outside the website? That's what I pay the website for. Why would I want to **** around with this every time some sore loser tries to find a loophole to get a win? The website is the rules.

 

[silentcoach]

As far as I'm concerned, I pay a website and setup the scoring rules, the website compiles stats and calculates the scores. The website is the rules. MFL does a preliminary score after the games are finished, then a final game result Thursday including their stat corrections. Why would I have a separate set of scoring rules outside the website? That's what I pay the website for. Why would I want to **** around with this every time some sore loser tries to find a loophole to get a win? The website is the rules.

I agree that you should not pay for a website that cannot score ACCORDING to your rules. But to call it THE rules. Blah.

 

[treat88]

What is the precedent from past seasons?

Until the rule is clarified, precedent has to be the primary guide.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

There is one giant elephant in the room that everybody is ignoring here. The NFL does not organize nor "stat" things to make them 100% applicable or convenient to the fantasy football world. If the application of NFL stats to the fantasy football world was 100% accurate--the need for a human commissioner in every league would seriously be diminished. Commissioners exist for the very purpose of problems like this. The nature of the rules in your league suggest that special teams points (whether positive or negative) are attributed to the defensive teams in your league. Your league doesn't award points for individual players scoring touchdowns on special teams---so it is 100% reasonable that the spirit of the rule would infer that the same player shouldn't be penalized for something that your league is categorizing in the defensive team scoring section. The website that you are on scores based solely on how the NFL stats things--but as I said earlier--the NFL does not stat things in direct correlation of the fantasy world. Every league is different and these stats might have to be applied differently based on the scoring parameters of ones league--this is why every league has a commish. Your commish is refusing to apply the way the NFL stats something in correlation to the spirit of the rules that govern your fantasy league. I think it's obvious that you have a legit gripe--but I hate to tell you that there are lots of the people in the fantasy world that have tunnel vision. The world is not black and white--there is plenty of grey area--and in the fantasy world--this is why there are commissioners.

 

[gsmayes]

As far as I'm concerned, I pay a website and setup the scoring rules, the website compiles stats and calculates the scores. The website is the rules. MFL does a preliminary score after the games are finished, then a final game result Thursday including their stat corrections. Why would I have a separate set of scoring rules outside the website? That's what I pay the website for. Why would I want to **** around with this every time some sore loser tries to find a loophole to get a win? The website is the rules.

I agree that you should not pay for a website that cannot score ACCORDING to your rules. But to call it THE rules. Blah. This post makes little sense. Sorry.

Everyone is inferring that the OP's league has a rule book that predates the software. The OP never specifically states any rule, only his opinion. 99.9999999999% of leagues start by going to a website, creating a league and setting up the rules in said website. The website scores according to the settings. Those are the rules.

 

[CalvinJ55]

Pretty horrible situation. Next year switch sites or at least let individual punt return TDs count.

 

[Bada Bing]

From MFL Strange Plays section...

Fumbles and Muffs (Published Wed Sep 11 11:57:21 p.m. ET 2013)

Fumbles happen all the time in the NFL, but they tend to be a source of confusion and arguments in fantasy football, because there are so many different types of fumbles and circumstances in which they can occur. Hopefully we can help clear up some confusion, especially in light of the muffed punt by Wes Welker in the Thursday night game. Many leagues are asking "was that a fumble" or "how should it be scored in my league?" The short answer is: Yes, a muffed punt is also considered a fumble, so it will be scored as a fumble depending on which fumble rules you have set up for your league. Read on for more details...

Let's start with the simple and most obvious occurrence of a fumble: an offensive player such as a running back fumbles the ball, and the other team recovers it. Pretty simple and easy to explain and score this. But keep in mind that all sorts of potential fantasy football scoring events happen even on a simple play like this:

• The player had a "Fumble"
• The player had a "Fumble Lost"
• The defender (potentially) had a "Forced Fumble" (some fumbles are not forced)
• The defender (or possibly a different defender) had a "Fumble Recovery"

There's more, but those are the basics for the purposes of our discussion. Let's say your league only has the rule defined as -2 points for each "Fumbles Lost (to Opponent)" and no other fumble related rules. This running back would receive -2 points. But what if he fumbled and then recovered it himself? Or if he fumbled and someone else on his team recovered it? Or he fumbled and it went out of bounds? Or he fumbled and then the other other team recovered it, but then a penalty was called that nullified the whole play? All of those are instances where you could have seen a player fumble on TV while watching the game, but you wouldn't see the points for "Fumbles Lost" appear in your fantasy football league, because he didn't lose the fumble! Every week we have complaints or comments or issues raised by customers that swear up and down that they witnessed a player fumble, so why isn't he being charged for that fumble!? The answer is "It depends on a lot of factors!"

The rule called "Fumbles" takes into account all fumbles by a player, no matter what. That means if they dropped the ball on a rushing play, or kickoff return, or muffed a punt, or bobbled a snap from center, it is considered a fumble. And it doesn’t matter if they recovered it or not. A fumble is the act of losing the ball. Related to that is the rule called "Fumbles Lost (to Opponent)" which takes into account all fumbles lost by a player, no matter what. That means if they lost a fumble on special teams or on offense or on defense, then they are charged with a Fumble Lost. But only if the NFL opponent ends up with possession after the play. Otherwise it is not considered "lost".

If you prefer to try to categorize the fumble and only penalize players for certain types of fumbles, then we have other scoring rules available as well. These are pretty self explanatory. They are your "standard" fumble plays that happen on offense:

• Fumbles on Offense
• Fumbles Lost on Offense

There are also "Special Teams" fumble scoring rules:

• Fumbles on Special Teams
• Fumbles Lost on Special Teams

These are a little trickier, because the definition of "Special Teams" is a whole separate topic for fantasy football purposes. But in general, Fumbles on Special Teams refers to any situation after the ball is punted or kicked off. And a "muff" is considered to be a fumble for fantasy football scoring purposes. So for our specific example of Wes Welker in the Thursday night game, he tried to catch a punt, but it bounced off his chest and the punting team recovered it. In the play-by-play the NFL refers to it as a "muffed punt", but for fantasy football statistical purposes, it is considered to be a special teams fumble and special teams fumble lost. If your league had the generic "Fumbles" or "Fumbles Lost (to Opponent)" set up for the WR position, then he would be penalized for this. If you didn’t want that to happen, then you would have to change your rules to use the "Fumbles on Offense" type rules instead for the WR position, for example.

Finally, we have defensive fumble scoring rules:

• Fumbles on Defense
• Fumbles Lost on Defense

These are also tricky, because it can be fuzzy trying to differentiate between a special teams play versus a defensive play. But in general terms, Fumbles on Defense happen only after a turnover occurs first. For example, if a QB throws an interception, and then the defender fumbles it while running it back, that would be a fumble on defense. Clear as mud!?

 

[Joe Summer]

How is it a fumbleif he never has posession? A muffed KR and a fumble are 2 different things.

says you or the nfl rule book?

Both.

so the nfl stat sheets say "muffed kr" and not "fumble"?

Maybe not, but it should. By rule it is a different thing. For a player to fumble, first they have to have posession. What if it just touches a player that was not trying to catch the ball. Is that a fumble too?

according to NFL rules, yes

Actually, the NFL contradicts itself on this subject. NFL rules clearly define a fumble as "loss of player possession". So, a muffed punt is clearly NOT a fumble, since the receiving player never established possession. This is all according to the official NFL rulebook.However, the NFL basically ignores that definition for scorekeeping purposes. So, both the box score and the Gamebook list Welker with a "fumble lost".

 

[atcdav]

If Edelman cant score and get vredit for a TD he probably should get dinged for a fumble. Sounds like a scoring setup error in yourleague. As commish I would not change it or adjust the scoring for the rest of the year. I would note it and fix it for next year. Changing it now would make it unfair for you. Changing your scoring is not a goos idea either. You get screwed but things happen.. IMO

 

[GregR]

How is it a fumbleif he never has posession? A muffed KR and a fumble are 2 different things.

says you or the nfl rule book?

Both.

so the nfl stat sheets say "muffed kr" and not "fumble"?

Maybe not, but it should. By rule it is a different thing. For a player to fumble, first they have to have posession. What if it just touches a player that was not trying to catch the ball. Is that a fumble too?

according to NFL rules, yes

Actually, the NFL contradicts itself on this subject. NFL rules clearly define a fumble as "loss of player possession". So, a muffed punt is clearly NOT a fumble, since the receiving player never established possession. This is all according to the official NFL rulebook.However, the NFL basically ignores that definition for scorekeeping purposes. So, both the box score and the Gamebook list Welker with a "fumble lost".

The NFL rules don't contradict themselves (at least in this). The stats are not in line with the NFL rules.

By the rules, a muff is the touching of a loose ball by a player in an unsuccessful attempt to obtain possession of it. That means a muffed punt is a muff. When JJ Watt swats a pass down it is a muff, and each time Aaron Dobson touches a Brady pass that he fails to catch, it's a muff.

A fumble is an act other than a pass or kick which results in a loss of player possession.

If a QB pitches the ball to a RB, and it hits him in the hands and falls to the ground, the QB fumbled (his act of pitching lost possession of the ball), and the RB muffed.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

How is it a fumbleif he never has posession? A muffed KR and a fumble are 2 different things.

says you or the nfl rule book?

Both.

so the nfl stat sheets say "muffed kr" and not "fumble"?

Maybe not, but it should. By rule it is a different thing. For a player to fumble, first they have to have posession. What if it just touches a player that was not trying to catch the ball. Is that a fumble too?

according to NFL rules, yes

Actually, the NFL contradicts itself on this subject. NFL rules clearly define a fumble as "loss of player possession". So, a muffed punt is clearly NOT a fumble, since the receiving player never established possession. This is all according to the official NFL rulebook.However, the NFL basically ignores that definition for scorekeeping purposes. So, both the box score and the Gamebook list Welker with a "fumble lost".

The NFL rules don't contradict themselves (at least in this). The stats are not in line with the NFL rules.

By the rules, a muff is the touching of a loose ball by a player in an unsuccessful attempt to obtain possession of it. That means a muffed punt is a muff. When JJ Watt swats a pass down it is a muff, and each time Aaron Dobson touches a Brady pass that he fails to catch, it's a muff.

A fumble is an act other than a pass or kick which results in a loss of player possession.

If a QB pitches the ball to a RB, and it hits him in the hands and falls to the ground, the QB fumbled (his act of pitching lost possession of the ball), and the RB muffed.

I don't mean to chime in on the back and forth--but I do think there is a need to get back on point to what the OP is posting here. Regardless of how the NFL categorizes a muff versus a fumble-- the NFL does not stat things to make them perfectly compatible with the fantasy world. Different leagues have different scoring systems--and these same "stats" apply differently to every league based on that leagues scoring system and rules. This is why every league has a commissioner because every stat doesn't get translated 100% properly into every fantasy leagues rule or scoring system. The op stated that his league rules do not award points to individual players for special teams yards, tds..etc--and basically lumps those stats into the defensive team scoring. The only question here is--based on that--is it reasonable that this would imply that the spirit of the way his league scores is that individual offensive players are not subject to stats that apply to special teams plays. In my opinion--the spirit of the rule here is obvious and the commish needs to apply the stat properly to the way this particular league scores things. This is exactly why there is a commish--the application of NFL stats to different fantasy leagues with different scoring parameters is not an exact science. The problem is not in how the NFL stats things--because they don't stat for fantasy purposes---the question here is: Is his commish applying the stat properly given the spirit of the rule in his league. This is what you guys should be debating.

 

[atcdav]

So the way our league is set up, D/ST is a single entity and they score as a team - ie, if Julian Edelman runs a punt back for a TD, the NE DST would get 6 points.

I started Welker last week, and our site docked him 2 points for the muffed punt. I lost the game by 1 point. I called our commish and he said he accepts whatever the website does. I argued that in no way should a guy receive negative points on a play where there was no possibility for him to get any positive points. Do I have a legit gripe, and if so, what have folks done in the past when something like this happens? It's a $250 buy in league and 4 teams make the playoffs, so there isn't much room for losses and I certainly don't want to take one that isn't justified. Thoughts?

You might be interested in this discussion from last year:

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=669333&hl=edelman

Edelman recovered a fumble for a TD on ST (kickoff) and it did not count for him but rather for ST play.

You have to look at the actual league rules - actually go find them on your league site and see what they say. It;s not a site thing, it's a rules thing. The site just tells you how the points awards are set up. But the league rules should always govern.

+1, fix it next year

 

[threeputt]

I think the person you played would be more irate than you are currently if the commish just decided "Nah, we're gonna change that. You lost."

Not if he or she was reasonable. Too many tools play FF these days ...

 

[GregR]

The problem is not in how the NFL stats things--because they don't stat for fantasy purposes---the question here is: Is his commish applying the stat properly given the spirit of the rule in his league. This is what you guys should be debating.

Yes we got sidetracked, though worth discussing. But good to nudge us back.

It isn't just an issue of "is the commish applying the stat properly" though. The bigger issue being created is changing the official source for fantasy statistics without even discussion. When the league hosts on the site, there's the expectation the site is the official statistics source unless their rules already say otherwise.

What is the official source for stats now if it's not CBS? Is it the commish eyeballing games? Is it NFL.com? If it's the latter, then does the commish have to give the Stafford owner back the points he lost when CBS updated stats to reflect Elias changing him from 2 rushing yards to -3 rushing yards.... a change which NFL.com does not show?

That's why I recommended sticking with the site's stats. I made that recommendation in the Rules Leagues Should Consider Having thread. I've made the mistake of using something else as our official stat source, and having to go through owners contesting any stat they could find to try to eek out a win.

 

[atcdav]

I have been a coomish for many years. We have adjusted our rules over the years. We clearly state NFL stars are official. If we find an issue in scoring we address at the end of the season and fix it for next year. we do not make mid season adjustments, whatever the rule is, it is the same for all teams. Any other team with a WR/return guy will be in the same situation. I am guessing this as scored this way before and no one noticed because the final score was not close enough to matter

 

[threeputt]

This would have been a great thing to recognize and fix before the season started. If a guy fumbles, he fumbles, and it counts against him. Sucks for you but that's the way the rules were written, and the season started.

This is lame. No one is going to notice this rule unless it has already happened in your league or you hear that it happened in another league. The rules in his league clearly state that a WR loses -2 points for a fumble and that there are no negative points for the Def/ST on lost fumbles. Welker was playing for the special teams when his fumble occurred. That cannot be disputed. CLEARLY, there is a glitch in the programming and it needs to be changed win, lose or draw.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

I have been a coomish for many years. We have adjusted our rules over the years. We clearly state NFL stars are official. If we find an issue in scoring we address at the end of the season and fix it for next year. we do not make mid season adjustments, whatever the rule is, it is the same for all teams. Any other team with a WR/return guy will be in the same situation. I am guessing this as scored this way before and no one noticed because the final score was not close enough to matter

nobody is stating that the nfl stats aren't official--the point is that the stat wasn't applied properly into this leagues scoring system--nobody is arguing the "stat". With this being the case--and it's just after week 1--why not fix the scoring issue? This is exactly why I play in leagues where the commish actually has a backbone and does what is right.