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Game of Thrones, tv only, books don't exist, no backstory...NERDS already ruining a series that hasn't started (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter belljr
- Start date
zoonation
Footballguy
I don't care what Targaryen backstory they tell, it cannot possibly redeem what they did to Danny.Sinn Fein said:
I still haven't watched a single minute of Thrones since that last season. And I probably rewatched it more than any other drama (other than the Wire, possibly). I just can't. they butchered it. it would be one thing, if like the wire, you could go back and rewatch to see how this crazy narrative arc was hiding in the shadows and you just missed it. But there is no such thing for Danny. Going back to watch her scenes would only be more infuriating.
I think they did telegraph Daenerys' future going all the way back to season 1 - when she burned the woman for cursing Drogo, or when she nonchalant;y watched her brother get melted, or when she first uttered the word: "Dracarys" in the House fo the Undying. Or when she killed the Khals, or when she killed teh slave trader that sold her the unsullied, or the guy from Mereen sent to negotiate, or the Tarleys, or Varys, etc.
Whenever Daenerys did not get her way, or felt disrespected, she burned #### down. We, as an audience, tended to overlook it, because we were rooting for her to win.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I honestly don't remember 100% the last couple seasons, so admit I could be pulling a little out of my ### but I think those examples are mostly people who wronged her, not a whole city. Also I think people were expecting a bit of a gradual ramp up to that person, not what we got.
Again, I fully admit my bias and I didn't love what I was seeing out of the show, so I was prone to more grumbly nitpicking. if I liked it more, I would have looked past more stuff.
zoonation
Footballguy
Nah. It’s a quantum leap from those examples mostly of her, rightly or wrongly, torching people that she felt were evil or, I’ll even grant, standing in her way, to genocide. Especially given her growth as the show progressed. The torching of innocents, including children, was never remotely close to earned.
Especially torching non-combatants and completely ignoring the very obvious red keep where Cersei actually was. The problem was that if she doesn’t go full moron then Tyrion doesn’t find his brother and sister (dude’s a hell of a bloodhound) and decide she’s got to die. That’s The Walking Dead level story telling not GOT early years.
Personally, I’m just glad she ordered that second set of Dothrakis and Unsullied. Just imagine the embarrassment of showing up at King’s Landing with no army.
I’ll still watch every second of this new show but I’m definitely not setting my expectations high so hopefully they blow them away. I’m not even worried about the knowledge of what will happen because I loved Rogue One even knowing the end.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
No doubt the writing in later seasons was terrible, but Danarys becoming the Mad Queen was telegraphed from the beginning. She had an actual vision of herself in a burned out Kings Landing throne room with ashes floating through the air in season 2. By the time she arrived in Westeros, she was a ruthless tyrant.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
True. However, she had already won. There was no believable reason for Dany to torch the city and regular people. At all. Made zero sense within the story they told. Paranoid, angry, crazy etc., it still didn’t work the way they did it.
zoonation
Footballguy
Sure. If you’re into ridiculously lazy writing. Frodo had several similar visions on the way to Modor. Still doesn’t pay the till.
And, to address the Westeros point, she really wasn’t. She had moral justification for everything she did. Which was consistent with her growth up until that point. “Ruthless tyrant”, respectfully, is a gross overstatement of what she was leaving across the sea.
The show tried to save the sloppy narrative they were about to inflict on us when she got there, but it was so obvious as to be insulting while we watched it.
It was irredeemably bad writing and plot narrative. The worst part was how lazy it was. And I say that as someone who adored the franchise.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Agreed. The ending wasn't great, but it wasn't terrible like some think it was, but you know how it is once a little negativity catches on with folks on the internet. People love a bandwagon. I work with a guy who thought it was all okay and then months after the finale decided that it was the worst thing ever, and it was obvious that reading all of the negativity got in his head.Capella said:
Exactly. I was like, were people not paying attention? Danny always had that "My dragons will burn anyone who gets in my way" mentality, and once her two closest friends (Jorah and Missandei) were dead and she had lost all faith in the one other person who could check her worst impulses (Tyrion), there was no one left to get in her ear, and it was scorched earth time.
zoonation
Footballguy
I guess we all have different expectations and tolerances for writing quality? Fair enough.
But it is hardly a secret that when B&B were left to their own devices to write an ending to this story, they clearly weren’t up to the task and, so far as I know, have yet to be heard from since.
But it is hardly a secret that when B&B were left to their own devices to write an ending to this story, they clearly weren’t up to the task and, so far as I know, have yet to be heard from since.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Ive just said the writing was “terrible” so your comment that I’m “into ridiculously lazy writing” seems misplaced. I didn’t like the last few season, entirely because of the weak writing. I don’t think it’s wise to defend the morality of this character. Maybe her story was lazy and stupid, but the writers could not have telegraphed their terrible lazy character arc any more clearly - she was going to take what she viewed as hers and rain hellfire down on anything that stood in her way. The scene everyone loves so much when she stole the unsullied army is ridiculous. In the world they created, it wouldn’t make sense for her to become a benevolent, kind leader.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
They weren't in her way anymore. There was NOTHING that indicated she would burn a whole city and "civilians" at all. Ever. Maybe GRRM will have her do this as well, but the show butchered the last few seasons with pacing that never allowed for this type of thing from the character.
Seasons 1-4 had 100% source material, and were the best seasons. Season 5 had limited material and was quite weak. Season 6 had some great scenes/episodes and there was a lot to go on (and I am sure discussed with GRRM) about the Jon Snow reveal. But then it all kind of went to ####. And you would be hard pressed to find a bigger fan of the show and books than me prior.
zoonation
Footballguy
The people of king’s landing, including the women and children, were not standing in her way though. The breaker of chains started slaughtering innocents, for no reason. They surrendered.
I guess we just see it differently.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
AAABatteries said:
GoT's fall was much faster and much further than Lost.
This is a lot more like Dexter where it went from grade-A writing and storytelling to absolute garbage overnight. I still think the s6 finale (Winds of Winter) was possibly the best episode of the whole series. And then the very next episode (and all of the rest) was like you were watching something completely different.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
With regard to Daenerys specifically I don't think most people care that she turned heel, rather that it was done so poorly. The foreshadowing about Dany turning could not have been more obvious. It was like we were watching Revenge of the Sith after already seeing the Original Trilogy of Star Wars. Almost everyone knew it was coming. It was just done in such a dopey network TV way.
Dany making a constipated face and deciding to ignore the woman she's been hunting for half the show to go kill some randos instead isn't good writing no matter how much her heel turn was foreshadowed. I've said before a much better version of this would have been if Cersei had tried to hide among the innocents or brought the innocents into the red keep to deter Dany and she'd just said screw it and killed everyone to make sure she got Cersei. But her ignoring a completely vulnerable Cersei to go do other stuff because Cersei made her mad was dumb. It felt like we were watching CBS (as did the entire last season).
I think the entire change of GoT as a series can be seen in parallel to the change in the character of Varys. In the early seasons he is a brilliant character. Always operating in the shadows, with some plan that goes 8 levels deep, we have no idea what his true motivations are, any scene involving him speaking with someone is like reading great literature.
Then in season 8 Varys is essentially walking around with a megaphone yelling to anyone who will listen "hay guys I'm going to betray the queen. I want to stab her just right in the back. I don't really have a plan but maybe we could get some pointy thing and just kind of poke her with it. If anyone would like to join up with me in betraying the queen just shoot me a text. Boy I hope she doesn't hear about this thing I'm telling to everyone that would be awkward for me lol".
It was just a whole change in the entire tone, pace, and writing of the show. The first 6 seasons were like watching The Wire on HBO. The last two like watching Revolution on NBC. It went from serious intricate drama to dopey action romp with hilariously depicted character motivations overnight. It was like watching the first 2 and a half hours of Schindler's List and then suddnely getting Ben Afflect's Pearl Harbor as the final act. They're both fine on their own, I guess, but they don't really go together.
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KarmaPolice
Footballguy
The last couple posts mirror what I was getting at with my Breaking Bad post in the streaming thread. For me, the Dany thing was dumb, but in a better show I could have looked past that (ie I didn't like the plane crash stuff in BB and the car gun thing was a bit much). The problem for me, was that was a bit of a cherry on top of a crap sundae that was 4 seasons of: characters changing (see Varys above), 5mile underwater swims, dumb WW capture expeditions, one note villains like Ramsay, too much Reek, hold the door, etc.. It was just an exclamation point on what I thought was a near 180 in quality of the show from the first 4 seasons to the last 4.
Mostly the people who don't seem to be that bothered with the Dany stuff seem to be the ones that don't agree that the show dipped that much in quality. JMO.
And I don't put all of this on D&D - some of these were issues that I had with books 1-3 vs. books 4/5: killed off too many of the interesting characters and a lot of my top 10 characters, and then put some of the best remaining characters with what I found to be boring ones - ie Tyrion with Dany.
Mostly the people who don't seem to be that bothered with the Dany stuff seem to be the ones that don't agree that the show dipped that much in quality. JMO.
And I don't put all of this on D&D - some of these were issues that I had with books 1-3 vs. books 4/5: killed off too many of the interesting characters and a lot of my top 10 characters, and then put some of the best remaining characters with what I found to be boring ones - ie Tyrion with Dany.
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E Street Brat
Footballguy
thecatch said:
Thanks. I was just going to ask about this, I didn't read "Fire and Blood" but heard it was more family tree and less story telling,
The Big Donkey
Footballguy
foxco
Footballguy
That's a different prequel than the one coming out about the Targarians. The one they canceled took place thousands of years ago. Would love to see the failed pilot out of curiosity.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Need to see a trailer or something. I have 0 interest right now, and I was obsessed with GOT.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Gr00vus
Footballguy
It'll all depend on who they got to write this stuff. I don't think it was Martin. Hopefully it's not whoever they got to fill in the blanks for seasons 6 and 7.
Mile High
Footballguy
Gr00vus
Footballguy
I guess so. Thanks for pointing that out. I haven't read that, guess I'll have to give it a look.
belljr
Footballguy
Mile High
Footballguy
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Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Jon Snow sequel series starring Kit Harrington in development.
I don’t know if it’s the way GOT ended but I don’t feel as psyched when I watch that teaser. I hope it’s amazing.
One other thought, this makes me think of a series on just Elves in LOTR. While they are cool as part of the fellowship or as lovers of human kings, a show on all elves would be boring as hell. The Targaryens makes me think of Elves. We barely saw any in GOTs. Again, hope it’s amazing and some or most of the actors turn out amazing jobs like GOT did before the debacle.
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Capella
Footballguy
beer 30
Footballguy
Lol, but no. I meant a show with only Elves and no one else, period. I picked Elves too because they aren’t “fun” people so to speak.
I guess even the new trailer above looks interesting but seems a little limiting. Here’s another analogy. Would GOT have been as good of a show if the whole thing was basically just Kings Landing?
After watching GOT, I’m worried. I hope they prove me wrong. Rings of Power even in the previews sure doesn’t seem limited in scope. Super hot take, HotD almost seems like Big Brother where they setup cameras app over Kings Landing and that’s all we’ll see.
Hawks64
Footballguy
It sure does. Really going to be interesting to see how it goes with Dragons on both sides.
Hawks64
Footballguy
You don't think it would be interesting to see the fall of the Targaryens? How the chess board is played with Dragons on both sides? To me it could be an incredible story to watch.
beer 30
Footballguy
RoP is elf centric but it brings in all the other races as they are developed in the timeline. In the beginning it was just the elves then people started making other races. Elves were the dominate race until the LoTR's story line when they finally gave over to man.
As for HoTD, from what I understand, it shouldn't be as you describe in your last paragraph. Before the Targaryen's came on the scene, all the houses just constantly fought with one another. One would rise to power then eventually get knocked off by another and another and so on. The Targaryen's mastered dragons and forced all the other houses to unite to fight them so it should be interesting to see some of the backstory and the fights between the other houses.
I'm a geek for all this stuff so I'm in no matter what.
I hope so. I just don’t get a super excited vibe. It doesn’t have the full realm feel.
I am too and I’ll be watching for sure. Hopefully, the uneasy feeling I have from the previews is just that. RoP looks great and I hope it proves to be as well. I’m a sucker for Galadriel and the previews look great in that respect.
Hawks64
Footballguy
Well it's the story of their house, so I wouldn't expect the entirety of the realm to really be involved.
TLEF316
Footballguy
Trailer was alright. Enough to get me to watch.
Its a universe that I like and the 2 idiots who ruined the first show aren't involved...so I'll give it a shot. If it has good characters and good stories, (and decent effects/production values, which I'm sure will be the case) I'll be in.
I do worry that they're just gonna go all in on trying to make the girl the hero like they did with Daenerys (before they screwed it up) and that the "girl power, down with the patriarchy" message will be a bit much. We shall see.
Its a universe that I like and the 2 idiots who ruined the first show aren't involved...so I'll give it a shot. If it has good characters and good stories, (and decent effects/production values, which I'm sure will be the case) I'll be in.
I do worry that they're just gonna go all in on trying to make the girl the hero like they did with Daenerys (before they screwed it up) and that the "girl power, down with the patriarchy" message will be a bit much. We shall see.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
I am in this boat. Not overly excited and must watch the day it releases, but I will probably watch it based on the above.
There won't be any "wokeness" happening just for the sake of it, as GRRM wrote this history years and years ago. The Dance of Dragons and its history was known as of the very first book in the 90s.
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Capella
Footballguy
Yes yes, we definitely need more of the “man runs everything” storylines we’ve seen from Hollywood for the past 75 years.
