Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
Jimmy Smith already has 12,287 yards; if he plays two more years he will pass 13,600. Rod Smith is also likely to get there; both those players put up 1000 yards this year. McCardell, probably not. Then you've got Harrison, Bruce, TO, Moss, Keyshawn, Holt, Moulds, Muhammad, Galloway, Glenn, Kennison, Mason, Toomer, all ahead of Ward right now, and most of those are at least as likely to hit 13,600 as Ward is.
Not right now he isn't. Right now, he would be behind Harrison, Moss, Owens, Rod Smith, Holt, Bruce, Rod Smith and Jimmy Smith. He might pass some of those guys EVENTUALLY, but if the NFL ceased to exist tomorrow, he would rank below all of those guys. You can say your "when all is said and done" comment means what you are speculating his numbers will be when his career is over, but none of us have any way of knowing how his career will go from this point forward. Considering his numbers have dropped the past two years despite better quarterback play, it could be argued that he is already on somewhat of a downslide.
Even the best joke becomes unfunny when repeated 400 times in the span of about 48 hours.Humor down?Are you attempting to live up to your sig? It's the only explanation.He'll get in on the first ballot if they can find a way to involve the refs from the game on Sunday.
Precisely. We have no way of knowing how that's all going to shake out as early as next year. Bettis is done and if Staley is cut, we may see a lot more passing from Pittsburgh next season than the last 2.My comment regards reflecting on the careers of these guys as a whole, as is done when evaluating HOF candidacy. Obviously, Ward could get hit by a bus tomorrow and never play again, but this is all speculative anyway because the guy is still active. What I was saying is that if asked to rattle off the top 5 receivers in football over the span of the past few years, most would say Owens, Moss, Holt, Harrison, and Ward, in some order.
Depends on your definition of few. If few = 3 or less, that hurts Ward because it doesn't include his best season, plus others like Steve Smith and Chad Johnson get strong consideration. I think it is a stretch to say he is in the top 5 over the past 3 years or less.If few = 4+ years, then your "in some order" equates to Ward being #5 at best, because the other 4 you named have all been better.Now maybe this isn't true if YOU ask people, since you probably tend to hang out with a bunch of Steeler fans.
Just going off ff position rankings, here are the average rankings per year the last three years.Chad Johnson: 5.3
Depends on your definition of few. If few = 3 or less, that hurts Ward because it doesn't include his best season, plus others like Steve Smith and Chad Johnson get strong consideration. I think it is a stretch to say he is in the top 5 over the past 3 years or less.If few = 4+ years, then your "in some order" equates to Ward being #5 at best, because the other 4 you named have all been better.
Now maybe this isn't true if YOU ask people, since you probably tend to hang out with a bunch of Steeler fans.
When I said few, I was probably imagining since 2000 or so. Steve Smith and CJ are beginning to state a case as well, but when I say "best receiver", I am looking at the whole package, not just stats. Owens is a more gifted receiver than Ward, but is he more valuable? Certainly not this year he hasn't been. Is Torry Holt more valuable than Ward? That's debatable too.
Torry Holt is pretty obvious.EDIT: Holt leads your list at 5.0.
Holding team records for a storied franchise hasn't helped Micahel Irvin any, and in many ways I think Irvin's career (at least on the field) was pretty similar in some ways to Wards.Irvin ended up with just under 12,000 reciving yards and was a 5-time Pro Bowler (in addition to his 3 Super Rings).
I suspect Irvin will ultimately make it. I think a better comparison would be Art Monk.Not only did Monk hold all of the Redskins' records when he retired, he held the NFL records. Hasn't helped him get in, and his chance of ultimately being inducted is questionable. He has missed 5 times so far, and if he doesn't get in within the next 3 years, he's going to face a lot of serious competition (see the recent HOF schedule thread) that may ultimately keep him out.
I think Ward is on his way to being better than Monk, HOF candidacy wise.Monk's top 5 seasons fantasy ranking wise were 6, 10, 11, 13, and 17 in a 16 year career. Ward's top 5 fantasy rankings have been 3, 6, 10, 28, 29 in essentially ONLY 5 seasons as a starter (8 years overall). If we duplicate Ward's last 5 seasons, added that to his current toals, and said he retired after that, he'd wind up with 1024 receptions, 12604 receiving yards, and 93 TD.I'm not sure that would be enough to get him in, but it would get him some supporters.As we've mentioned numeous times, we'll have to see what Ward does in another 5, 6, 7, or 8 years time before we can have a better picture.
Anyways, statements keep being made that Ward, while being a good blocker, leader, teammate, and clutch performer, does not have the receiving numbers to match his peers. And, time and time again, it is shown that he does have good numbers compared to his peers. Yudkin showed how Ward compared over the last five years in receptions, yards, TDs, and fantasy points, and it was very good. Ward shows up in the top five in three of those four categories (8th in the fourth category). Both Moss and TO each show up in the top five in three of the four categories. Only Harrison and Holt show up in the top 5 of all four categories. I've shown that not even the great Steve Smith has a better receiving resume to date and that Ward has a high average WR ranking the last few years.
I highly doubt anyone other than fantasy footballers use fantasy rankings for much of anything. It's simple a metric to evaluate players in a more universal scoring system.However, I do think that voters do compare players and numbers, both in terms of career totals and peak years.
I think the fact that Irvin was in the top 6 vote getters last year and wasn't close this year speaks volumes to the fact that his off-field issues have quite a bit to do with it.Clearly, Ward is not in Irvin's league right now in terms of career performance, but I am certianly not maintaining that Ward would make the Hall were he to retire today. However, I think if he plays 5-6 more years and gets to the milestones I referenced earlier, that the "intangibles" will probably push him over the top.
I hear you - I feel stupid repeating it all the time, but some of the responses to my posts sound as if people are thinking I'm advocating him as a candidate based on his current stats. Just want to make sure people know that so they don't dismiss my viewpoint as blind homerism - it isn't.I don't think this point has been mentioned yet.
Doubtful. He's one of the most respected players in the league amongst his peers. As Collinsworth and Carter said last night on Inside.... every receiver cheats on almost every play, it's only really cheating if you get caught.
unfortunately for Hines Ward the Steelers already used there "Two Wide Receivers Get into the HOF For Free" cards with Swann and Stallworth.so he will have to wait.Ward's will eventually own Steeler receiver records, and with the Steelers poised to win several Super Bowls over the next few years, parity in rings (with Swann/Stallworth) will come as well.
Ward is a ferocious blocker and a personable guy. Always smiling, whether he's been hammered with a vicious hit, or delivering one himself.
1st ballot =
And also considered one of the dirtiest players in the league by his peers.
So was Mean Joe Greene and you can find his bust in Canton.
A) I'm not really in the Ward-for-HOF camp. I just found his numbers to be a bit surprising. Like I said, everytime someone made a claim about Ward's numbers not being very impressive, the data didn't always back it up.B) Ward supporters will cite his good, but not great, stats and then add the "intagibles" and his postseason performance to make their case. I just think it is a more interesting case than most people give it credit for.
Here's how I'd do the groupings, or eras, of the current HOF WRs:Fears 48-56
His career is running parallel to guys in Moss, Owens, Harrison, and to a lesser degree, Holt, who are rewriting the record books (save for Jerry Rice's astronomical totals) each year. It's not out of the question at all to imagine if Owens rights the ship and Harrison and Moss stay healthy, those 3 guys could end up #2-3-4 in some order on the reception, yards, and TDs chart. Theoretically, Ward could end up #5 on the all-time list in all 3 categories and only be the 4th best receiver of his era, statistically. You can't penalize Ward for that. If anything, I think it wont be that he'll be left out, but rather that HOF voters will induct more receivers. Just my opinion.
David, I understand all this. I was responding to Evilgrin's post that the fact that Ward will be the record holder for many Steeler franchise records will carry a lot of weight. I simply wanted to show that being an NFL record holder doesn't guarantee anything, so why would being the Steeler franchise record holder be of special importance?
This is probably what I keep fighting against. I agree that if Ward finishes #5 on the all time list in multiple categories, he will be a great candidate for the HOF. But he won't. That is my stance. And given that he won't end up with lofty ranks, while some of his peers will, he won't make the HOF.I said the same thing to everyone in the Rod Smith, Jimmy Smith, Isaac Bruce, etc. threads, when they said, "but if he just performs at such and such level for this many more years he'll end up ranked..."
No, this was the first one regarding the refs helping Ward into the HOF. He will need all the help he can get just as the Steelers did on Sunday.Even the best joke becomes unfunny when repeated 400 times in the span of about 48 hours.Humor down?Are you attempting to live up to your sig? It's the only explanation.He'll get in on the first ballot if they can find a way to involve the refs from the game on Sunday.
No, this was the first one regarding the refs helping Ward into the HOF. He will need all the help he can get just as the Steelers did on Sunday.Even the best joke becomes unfunny when repeated 400 times in the span of about 48 hours.Humor down?Are you attempting to live up to your sig? It's the only explanation.He'll get in on the first ballot if they can find a way to involve the refs from the game on Sunday.
To clarify again, I think Ward is likley less than 50/50 to get into the Hall, and 0% right now. The only point I'm making is that because of the type of player he is, he has a better chance than most WRs to continue to post strong numbers later in his career. That, I believe, will leave him with very strong career stats, and along with his reputation, may be enough. That's it.
I understand you can do that with anyone, but the guys you named are in their mid 30s, while Ward is 29. Also, Ward's game is less predicated on speed and shiftiness, and more on solid route-running and sure hands, so I think his best skills will erode less slowly, a la Jerry Rice. Guys like Owens and Moss, whose success is based largely on athletic superiority, will not likley be able to maintain their success as easily. That's been the basis of all my statements here.
Define what "strong numbers" means? In recent years, there have been a handful of WR getting 1300-1500 yard seasons and in the neighborhood of 15 TD receptions. If Ward were to kick in many more seasons with 1000/8, I'm not sure that I would call that "strong," but maybe "solid."In further reflection on this, I think Ward's career may be similar to Rod Smith's.
By strong, I mean maintaining the #s he's put up so far in his career to this point. If he maintains the average stats he's posted since becoming a starter and plays to age 35, he'll have the benchmark numbers I mentioned earlier (1,100 rec - 13,600 yds - 100 TDs) which should be enough to get him in. My point since post #1 in this thread is: since his average season stats are not nearly as hard to maintain as Owens', or Moss', and because he has achieved those stats primarily through skills which are much less likely to erode with time than raw speed, he has a much better chance than most receivers to continue to post those #s later in his career. Agree or disagree?
Probably not. His fans will love it. His detractors will point out that he lowered his helmet and lead with the top of his helmet right into the head of Rivers. Seems like a perfect example of an offensive players getting away with stuff that defenders get fined for.
He is borderline at best at this point, if you ask me, but I think he will make it. Playing for the Steelers will give him a bump (if he had similar numbers and accomplishments playing for the Cardinals, he wouldn't have a prayer), and his lack of great numbers will be excused since he has played for a team that is not pass happy.
ldschool:
