Arkansas SAFE act "The nation's first trial over a state's ban on gender-confirming care for children " (1 Viewer)

[BladeRunner]

JHC, trans people as a group are a minority of a minority but yet you want them to have an outsized voice in all kinds of things that affect the vast super majority. Get outta' here.

The private medical decisions of the trans community affects the majority in any significant way?

You been living in a cave the last decade? Seriously, you might be able to get away with playing obtuse with your pals, but it's not going to work on the vast super majority.

Go play your game somewhere else.

 

[Stealthycat]

Given the autonomy you champion as a parent, it seems counterintuitive that you would embrace legislation that supplants that autonomy.

oh I don't think I've ever said we need to live in a society where everyone self rules - have I ?

 

[Stealthycat]

I know where you stand on the topic here but I still insist you are somewhat ignorant on the topic if you don't have any personal experience. Nothing can replace real human interaction, seeing something from the front line.

I'm somewhat agree with what you're saying

I've always known adultery was bad, ruins marriages ... having lived it is another totally different thing. Doesn't mean I was ignorant, I can still know its wrong and see what its done to other people and marriages/families.

I could have lived all my life without experiencing it and been just fine knowing it was wrong.

 

[Summer Wheat]

What would concern me the most is that nobody knows the long term ramifications to the body from trying to change a natural biological female into a male, or a male into a female. That is not counting the mental illness and anguish from the people who did it too early without being totally aware.

if you're an adult, you're taking those chances .......... you're right, nobody knows but if an adult wants to do it, they're free to

but kids are different and that's where Arkansas took a stand

How many things have all of us done as a young teen that we regret?

Argue all day man..Never changing my mind. ANY kind of gender modifications to any child under 18 is wrong in my opinion. Plain and simple.

My wife and I have talked about this and we as parents would never allow any kind of modifications to our kid`s bodies while they were still in a developing state in mid and body. The few kids we have come across that have been trying to this this are already "troubled" kids to begin with.

 

[parasaurolophus]

You like to use the word illness, I use the word condition that needs to be managed. As a doctor, many conditions cannot be cured, simply managed. In any and all those cases, government does not intervene. It is up to the patient, their parents, and the doctor. We can look at this logically as a spectrum of choices and when does the government have a say or should they:
On one side we have real issues: Cancer, Pediatric Diabetes, ie life threatening conditions. On the other side we have a contact lens fitting. Putting a kid into a contact lens in no way is the same as a cancer treatment, but it is putting something into their body (in this case a class II medical device) that can have side effects (where a pair of glasses do not). On the entirety of this spectrum (ADD treatment likely falls somewhere in the middle) the government does not take the decisions for these conditions out of the hands of the patient, their parents, or their doctor. The only time they do is abortion and now this. Why? Abortion I can see the reasoning: the "unborn (as ou put it)" has no say, but here? Everyone is having a say.

Makes. No. Sense. Unless you see it as what it is: a political grandstanding moment instead of actual care for the person involved.

cancer is a condition now ? comparing transitioning to contact lenses ?

I can't follow you on either of those, sorry, they make zero sense to me

Here is how I raised my kids .... I listened to them, and then I made decisions I thought was best for them and their input didn't matter just a whole lot. Sexting? No, and I don't care how badly they felt they needed to. Porn? No, I don't care how much they wanted it. Sleepovers with boys at 12 or 13 years old? No, my daughter wasn't allowed, I don't care how she was feeling. I could list on and on all the things my son and daughters wanted/felt ......... they were wrong, they were just kids and didn't know any better

Given the autonomy you champion as a parent, it seems counterintuitive that you would embrace legislation that supplants that autonomy.

Maybe people draw the line for certain things.

Like maybe let parents decide what movies kids watch but they cant beat them.

Perhaps whether or not they can take a few days off of school to go on a family vacation vs getting their breasts cut off?

Things like that.

 

[Stealthycat]

Maybe people draw the line for certain things.

Like maybe let parents decide what movies kids watch but they cant beat them.

Perhaps whether or not they can take a few days off of school to go on a family vacation vs getting their breasts cut off?

Things like that.

Society draws lines too, and right now there is a battle on what lines we're going to have on transgender

Arkansas is saying no, kids are not capable of making such drastic, life changing decisions at an early age and 18 years old is the age limit to decide on radical drug/surgeries to alter ones body against what biology is of that body

 

[parasaurolophus]

Do you guys really think of this as a decision with a physician?

Thinking you are a boy isnt the same as a broken bone.

Dealing with issues of the mind is a lot different and is littered with failures that were considered "settled".

 

[BladeRunner]

I think we can all agree that this bill is a step in the right direction, for the protection of children against themselves and adults.

There is ZERO doubt that this bill needs to be in place across the entire nation, but it starts with one state.

 

[bigbottom]

Maybe people draw the line for certain things.

Like maybe let parents decide what movies kids watch but they cant beat them.

Perhaps whether or not they can take a few days off of school to go on a family vacation vs getting their breasts cut off?

Things like that.

Society draws lines too, and right now there is a battle on what lines we're going to have on transgender

Arkansas is saying no, kids are not capable of making such drastic, life changing decisions at an early age and 18 years old is the age limit to decide on radical drug/surgeries to alter ones body against what biology is of that body

I think Arkansas is saying no, kids, together with their parents and their doctors, are not capable of making such decisions. If the law instead sought to require the various safeguards I mentioned upthread, I’d likely support it.

 

[Stealthycat]

I think Arkansas is saying no, kids, together with their parents and their doctors, are not capable of making such decisions. If the law instead sought to require the various safeguards I mentioned upthread, I’d likely support it.

they can make decisions like counseling - and they can wait until 18 year old and adult before using drugs and surgeries to change their bodies into something they're not

 

[Gatorman]

Argue all day man..Never changing my mind. ANY kind of gender modifications to any child under 18 is wrong in my opinion. Plain and simple.

This is where I'm at. Adults even suggesting kids get "transformed", IMO, is child abuse.

Kids should not make these decisions until they are a legal adult - then go nuts. Until then, let the adults virtue signal all they want, I guess.

Blade - you seem like someone who usually likes to have a reasonable discussion, so lets have a reasonable one.

Kids are neither dumb nor uninformed, they are simply young. 18 is just a dividing line to what we legally call "adulthood" but those under 18 are doing many adult things before they are 18, and lets face it, most of us were still knuckleheads even when we were considered "adults" in the legal sense.

sooooo... this is really a dividing line question in your case; and to be fair so are most "right vs left" questions in this world. Can a 10 year old question their gender identity? Probably. Should they be allowed to do anything about it at 10 (other than perhaps wear a skirt instead of shorts or vice versa), probably not. Should they be allowed to do something about this at 13? Maybe (as this is when puberty blockers would come into play plus or minus a year or so): Well, if this was a permanent change I'd be right with you in the No category. If it is "somewhat (just for SC)" reversable then would we really have an issue if the child, parents, and medical professional signed off on it? ok, I'm sure there is some debate there.

At 16: is there a real tangible difference between a 16 year old and an 18 year old other than legal definition of Adult? Not really. So your dividing line could concievably blur there with no real change to the discussion.

My take is this: Parents want what is best for their kids. No parent, no matter who they are (for the most part), want to do anything that makes their kids "different" other than have them be great in school or sports or whatever. I want my kids to be happy and feel safe and loved. I've been through a lot with them (not this particular issue) and behind the scenes of every one of their ideas or plans are me and my wife worrying and stressing about "what does this mean" from where they went to college to their dating to them driving for the first time. No parent takes any issue lightly. If my child had this issue it would never be a snap decision and I assume it isn't for any of the people you are accusing of "child abuse". It's silly.

 

[massraider]

My wife and I have talked about this and we as parents would never allow any kind of modifications to our kid`s bodies while they were still in a developing state in mid and body. The few kids we have come across that have been trying to this this are already "troubled" kids to begin with.

I'm with you, and a bunch of other conservatives here who probably have me on ignore.

No effing way I support a kid, or his/her family that wanna do this stuff. No way.

 

[tymarsas]

The few kids we have come across that have been trying to this this are already "troubled" kids to begin with.

I think this is an important question. Are these kids saying they are transgender because they are troubled and crying out for attention? Or are they troubled because they are transgender and crying out for help?

 

[bigbottom]

What would concern me the most is that nobody knows the long term ramifications to the body from trying to change a natural biological female into a male, or a male into a female. That is not counting the mental illness and anguish from the people who did it too early without being totally aware.

if you're an adult, you're taking those chances .......... you're right, nobody knows but if an adult wants to do it, they're free to

but kids are different and that's where Arkansas took a stand

How many things have all of us done as a young teen that we regret?

Argue all day man..Never changing my mind. ANY kind of gender modifications to any child under 18 is wrong in my opinion. Plain and simple.

My wife and I have talked about this and we as parents would never allow any kind of modifications to our kid`s bodies while they were still in a developing state in mid and body. The few kids we have come across that have been trying to this this are already "troubled" kids to begin with.

Anecdotal to be sure, but the one teenager I know who transitioned was a varsity athlete, graduated high school at the top of her class and attended/graduated from an Ivy League school with a degree in Computer Science.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

No effing way I support a kid, or his/her family that wanna do this stuff. No way.

I'd recommend watching this-

How Trans Kids And Their Parents Decide When To Start Medical Transition | VICE on HBO

As the debate continues over which bathroom transgender people should use, a more complex question is emerging about how early the medical transition begins ...

youtu.be

 

[Stealthycat]

Kids are neither dumb nor uninformed, they are simply young. 18 is just a dividing line to what we legally call "adulthood" but those under 18 are doing many adult things before they are 18, and lets face it, most of us were still knuckleheads even when we were considered "adults" in the legal sense.

sooooo... this is really a dividing line question in your case; and to be fair so are most "right vs left" questions in this world. Can a 10 year old question their gender identity? Probably. Should they be allowed to do anything about it at 10 (other than perhaps wear a skirt instead of shorts or vice versa), probably not. Should they be allowed to do something about this at 13? Maybe (as this is when puberty blockers would come into play plus or minus a year or so): Well, if this was a permanent change I'd be right with you in the No category. If it is "somewhat (just for SC)" reversable then would we really have an issue if the child, parents, and medical professional signed off on it? ok, I'm sure there is some debate there.

At 16: is there a real tangible difference between a 16 year old and an 18 year old other than legal definition of Adult? Not really. So your dividing line could concievably blur there with no real change to the discussion.

and often, States set 18 as the age for adults decisions to be made by the persons ........... that's what Arkansas is doing with this trans thing, setting an age

My take is this: Parents want what is best for their kids. No parent, no matter who they are (for the most part), want to do anything that makes their kids "different" other than have them be great in school or sports or whatever. I want my kids to be happy and feel safe and loved. I've been through a lot with them (not this particular issue) and behind the scenes of every one of their ideas or plans are me and my wife worrying and stressing about "what does this mean" from where they went to college to their dating to them driving for the first time. No parent takes any issue lightly. If my child had this issue it would never be a snap decision and I assume it isn't for any of the people you are accusing of "child abuse". It's silly.

Have you ever told your child no on something because you knew it was a wrong idea/thought/belief/act etc ? Of course you have - all parents have. Evidence that kids can't be trusted with adults decisions.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Maybe people draw the line for certain things.

Like maybe let parents decide what movies kids watch but they cant beat them.

Perhaps whether or not they can take a few days off of school to go on a family vacation vs getting their breasts cut off?

Things like that.

Society draws lines too, and right now there is a battle on what lines we're going to have on transgender

Arkansas is saying no, kids are not capable of making such drastic, life changing decisions at an early age and 18 years old is the age limit to decide on radical drug/surgeries to alter ones body against what biology is of that body

I think Arkansas is saying no, kids, together with their parents and their doctors, are not capable of making such decisions. If the law instead sought to require the various safeguards I mentioned upthread, I’d likely support it.

Stealth not honestly articulating Arkansas’s position is the give away. When you state it accurately, as you did, it’s unreasonable on its face.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Kids are neither dumb nor uninformed, they are simply young. 18 is just a dividing line to what we legally call "adulthood" but those under 18 are doing many adult things before they are 18, and lets face it, most of us were still knuckleheads even when we were considered "adults" in the legal sense.

sooooo... this is really a dividing line question in your case; and to be fair so are most "right vs left" questions in this world. Can a 10 year old question their gender identity? Probably. Should they be allowed to do anything about it at 10 (other than perhaps wear a skirt instead of shorts or vice versa), probably not. Should they be allowed to do something about this at 13? Maybe (as this is when puberty blockers would come into play plus or minus a year or so): Well, if this was a permanent change I'd be right with you in the No category. If it is "somewhat (just for SC)" reversable then would we really have an issue if the child, parents, and medical professional signed off on it? ok, I'm sure there is some debate there.

At 16: is there a real tangible difference between a 16 year old and an 18 year old other than legal definition of Adult? Not really. So your dividing line could concievably blur there with no real change to the discussion.

and often, States set 18 as the age for adults decisions to be made by the persons ........... that's what Arkansas is doing with this trans thing, setting an age

My take is this: Parents want what is best for their kids. No parent, no matter who they are (for the most part), want to do anything that makes their kids "different" other than have them be great in school or sports or whatever. I want my kids to be happy and feel safe and loved. I've been through a lot with them (not this particular issue) and behind the scenes of every one of their ideas or plans are me and my wife worrying and stressing about "what does this mean" from where they went to college to their dating to them driving for the first time. No parent takes any issue lightly. If my child had this issue it would never be a snap decision and I assume it isn't for any of the people you are accusing of "child abuse". It's silly.

Have you ever told your child no on something because you knew it was a wrong idea/thought/belief/act etc ? Of course you have - all parents have. Evidence that kids can't be trusted with adults decisions.

This isn’t getting a tattoo. Stop mischaracterizing what’s actually happening.

Have many times have you and your child met with multiple doctors over a long period of time in an effort to treat an issue?

 

[Stealthycat]

Stealth not honestly articulating Arkansas’s position is the give away. When you state it accurately, as you did, it’s unreasonable on its face.

I don't understand what you mean

 

[Stealthycat]

This isn’t getting a tattoo. Stop mischaracterizing what’s actually happening.

Have many times have you and your child met with multiple doctors over a long period of time in an effort to treat an issue?

you don't know what it is - neither do I. A phase, rebellion, confusion, being misled, wanting to be different, following a crowd, truly a mental issue ???

the parents and kid can figure it out and if its truly an "issue" on a mental level - then at 18 they can start transitioning ..... nobody is saying they can't do that as adults

what's being said is, wait until you're an adult

 

[bigbottom]

No effing way I support a kid, or his/her family that wanna do this stuff. No way.

I'd recommend watching this-

How Trans Kids And Their Parents Decide When To Start Medical Transition | VICE on HBO

As the debate continues over which bathroom transgender people should use, a more complex question is emerging about how early the medical transition begins ...

youtu.be

Thank you for posting this. The first story in particular was disheartening because it’s the town I live in. I can only hope things have gotten better for Kai and her family.

I don’t expect this video to change anyone’s mind on the issue. Frankly, I can understand the various perspectives being brought in this and other threads where we discuss these issues. But the one thing I would hope is that people would have a little humanity for the people, and particularly the parents, that are having to deal with these these incredibly challenging issues. They’ve been called evil, they’ve been called disgusting, they’ve been called child abusers. I know intimately parents of a transgender kid who went through these issues as a teen. They were scared. They were confused. They were conflicted. They grieved. They loved their child with all their hearts. And they wanted to do what they thought was right thing for their child and that was to support her in her transition. You may ultimately disagree with the decision they made together with their child. And that’s fine. But they are not evil. And I don’t think any of the parents or grandparents in this video are evil. It’s a controversial issue to be sure, and yes, I do believe there is a lot at stake. But let’s not dehumanize one another. It only adds to the pain.

(And I realize that most of you have not used the kind of words mentioned above. I appreciate that.)

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

what's being said is, wait until you're an adult

No! What you are saying is wait until it is too late!

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I can only hope things have gotten better for Kai and her family.

A year later they were forced to move.

What It's Like to Be Transgender in Texas

Last season, VICE News investigated the complicated lives of trans kids and their families as they navigate decisions over medical transitions and how best t...

www.youtube.com

And then

VOGUE USA : Short Documentary : This Girl's Life: On Growing Up Trans in Texas

This Girl's Life: On Growing Up Trans in Texas Short Documentary for @Vogue Directed by @ethanjamesgreen Director of Photography @cultofcolt Post Production ...

www.youtube.com

I cannot imagine believing Kai should be forced to become an adult man just in case she changes her mind.

 

[bigbottom]

I can only hope things have gotten better for Kai and her family.

A year later they were forced to move.

What It's Like to Be Transgender in Texas

Last season, VICE News investigated the complicated lives of trans kids and their families as they navigate decisions over medical transitions and how best t...

www.youtube.com

And then

VOGUE USA : Short Documentary : This Girl's Life: On Growing Up Trans in Texas

This Girl's Life: On Growing Up Trans in Texas Short Documentary for @Vogue Directed by @ethanjamesgreen Director of Photography @cultofcolt Post Production ...

www.youtube.com

I cannot imagine believing Kai should be forced to become an adult man just in case she changes her mind.

That's a heartbreaking video. And wow, Kai is so bright and outgoing. I think the way you posed the question really cuts to the core of it. I think its relatively easy to argue bright line rules in the abstract, but when you see stories like Kai's, it's really hard to avoid the incredibly difficult nuances that are at play.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

That's a heartbreaking video. And wow, Kai is so bright and outgoing. I think the way you posed the question really cuts to the core of it. I think its relatively easy to argue bright line rules in the abstract, but when you see stories like Kai's, it's really hard to avoid the incredibly difficult nuances that are at play.

I also get that Kai's case is relatively easy. She fought with her mom at 3 insisting that she was not a boy. And she has never wavered one bit so as a preteen, early teen her mom (absent legal hurdles) has about as easy of a decision as these kinds of scenarios get. Still not easy, but much easier than the mom or dad learning out of nowhere (from the parent's perspective) that their child is saying they are trans and want to explore medical options.

And as a society there isn't a choice where we can safely say no child is going to be harmed by that choice. A ban certainly harms the Kai's of the world. A "free for all" will certainly harm others. Any place in between is going to err one way or another from time to time. But if it is really about the children and not about other things than we can't choose the lazy and indifferent "ban" any more than we can choose the "free for all". We have to choose the hard path of somewhere in between. A path where we will be guilty of making mistakes. That is if it is about the children, all the children.

 

[Stealthycat]

No! What you are saying is wait until it is too late!

what ?

you can't transition from 18 year old and onward ?

we all agree its a mental disorder/issue/condition .......... using drugs and surgery to alter the body so the mind can feel better isn't "too late" at 18 or 26 or 38 or 47 etc when you're adult enough to make the decisions

 

[Stealthycat]

I cannot imagine believing Kai should be forced to become an adult man just in case she changes her mind.

I cannot imagine letting a child that young decide their own fate.

Tell me what other adult decisions would give that little kid?

 

[Stealthycat]

people do regret transitioning, adults regretting is one thing, but letting little kids like the story above make adult decisions on drugs and surgeries ? no, I do not agree with that

'60 Minutes' Story Focuses on Transition Regret, Gets Slammed

A controversial segment gave credence to those who question trans identity.

www.advocate.com

Experience: I regret transitioning

I saw that it wasn’t being female that was stopping me from being myself; it was society’s perpetual oppression of women

www.theguardian.com

Sexual Health

Find in-depth articles on men's and women's sexual health information for a happier and healthier sex life.

www.webmd.com

‘I literally lost organs:’ Why detransitioned teens regret changing genders

A look at the alarming rise of teens who are changing genders and then “detransitioning” back.

nypost.com

https://www.dailysignal.com/2021/06/02/these-transgender-individuals-regretted-transitioning-parents-need-to-hear-their-stories/

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

No! What you are saying is wait until it is too late!

what ?

you can't transition from 18 year old and onward ?

we all agree its a mental disorder/issue/condition .......... using drugs and surgery to alter the body so the mind can feel better isn't "too late" at 18 or 26 or 38 or 47 etc when you're adult enough to make the decisions

You cannot undo puberty. It is the irreversible change that you are condemning trans children to go through.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I cannot imagine letting a child that young decide their own fate.

It is not that hard if you bother to care to listen to almost a decade of consistent, persistent, insistent assertions by the little girl growing into a very special young woman - except no, she has to become an adult man first. For what reason? What good is served by that?

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

people do regret transitioning,

A "minority of a minority". No one here is saying to not care about these people. To not to put safeguards into place to minimize these occurrences. Just that a ban to protect a few at the expense of the majority is not looking out for all of the children. Just the select few that align to your beliefs. That is wrong!

 

[BladeRunner]

people do regret transitioning,

A "minority of a minority". No one here is saying to not care about these people. To not to put safeguards into place to minimize these occurrences. Just that a ban to protect a few at the expense of the majority is not looking out for all of the children. Just the select few that align to your beliefs. That is wrong!

Again, the Trans community is already a minority of a minority. Why do they get a voice over the vast majority of us but the tiny minority within their own group doesn't?

Do you EVER argue in good faith?

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Why do they get a voice over the vast majority of us

Over their healthcare? Why do you expect a vote at all? Why does the majority get a say? The argument that we need to protect children from irreversible changes to their bodies that they might regret as adults rings hollow when to accomplish this you force somewhere between 10 and 100 times as many children to go through irreversible changes to their bodies that they will regret as adults. ETA: When you even would deny postponing these changes for a few years to be more certain.

 

[Stealthycat]

You cannot undo puberty. It is the irreversible change that you are condemning trans children to go through.

you can't change DNA its a lifetime of drugs to suppress the body, to keep it from being what its suppose to be, am I right ?

no, you can't undo puberty and nobody should try IMO

 

[Stealthycat]

A "minority of a minority". No one here is saying to not care about these people. To not to put safeguards into place to minimize these occurrences. Just that a ban to protect a few at the expense of the majority is not looking out for all of the children. Just the select few that align to your beliefs. That is wrong!

I thought the minority were the ones that needed the most protection ?

 

[Stealthycat]

Over their healthcare? Why do you expect a vote at all? Why does the majority get a say? The argument that we need to protect children from irreversible changes to their bodies that they might regret as adults rings hollow when to accomplish this you force almost 100 times as many children to go through irreversible changes to their bodies that they will regret as adults.

its not healthcare

its drugs and/or surgery ... that isn't caring for the health of the body. It can be argued its for the health of the mind at the cost of the body ...........


lets wait until they're adults, they can transition them, drugs and surgeries all their lives if they want to try and suppress/change their bodies to how their minds want it

lets not allot if for kids please

 

[BladeRunner]

Why do they get a voice over the vast majority of us

Over their healthcare? Why do you expect a vote at all? Why does the majority get a say? The argument that we need to protect children from irreversible changes to their bodies that they might regret as adults rings hollow when to accomplish this you force somewhere between 10 and 100 times as many children to go through irreversible changes to their bodies that they will regret as adults. ETA: When you even would deny postponing these changes for a few years to be more certain.

I hate to break the sad news to you, but it's more than just about healthcare. And you know that but you're playing obtuse on purpose.

So the minority of a minority gets to dictate what the majority (which is the rest of us) have to allow, but the minority of a minority within their own group doesn't get a say at all. That's your stance.