RB/WR Cordarrelle Patterson, PIT (1 Viewer)

[jvdesigns2002]

FWIW Patterson was dropped in my re-draft yesterday. It's shocking to see how far his value has dropped since the start of the season. It's hard to blame him for being a complete bust as the entire Vikings situation has been relatively shocking this season. AP most likely missing the season due to something that is not injury related--then Rudolph getting hurt--and then Cassell--followed by Bridgewater showing signs of life--and then Brigdewater getting hurt---then Bridgewater returning but looking like an inexperienced rookie. I'm not sure if anybody could thrive under those circumstances.

 

[meatwad1]

FWIW Patterson was dropped in my re-draft yesterday. It's shocking to see how far his value has dropped since the start of the season. It's hard to blame him for being a complete bust as the entire Vikings situation has been relatively shocking this season. AP most likely missing the season due to something that is not injury related--then Rudolph getting hurt--and then Cassell--followed by Bridgewater showing signs of life--and then Brigdewater getting hurt---then Bridgewater returning but looking like an inexperienced rookie. I'm not sure if anybody could thrive under those circumstances.

Josh Gordon.

 

[PatsWillWin]

FWIW Patterson was dropped in my re-draft yesterday. It's shocking to see how far his value has dropped since the start of the season. It's hard to blame him for being a complete bust as the entire Vikings situation has been relatively shocking this season. AP most likely missing the season due to something that is not injury related--then Rudolph getting hurt--and then Cassell--followed by Bridgewater showing signs of life--and then Brigdewater getting hurt---then Bridgewater returning but looking like an inexperienced rookie. I'm not sure if anybody could thrive under those circumstances.

The circumstances don't help, but the main issue is that he doesn't know how to play the position.

 

[Hoss Style]

FWIW Patterson was dropped in my re-draft yesterday. It's shocking to see how far his value has dropped since the start of the season. It's hard to blame him for being a complete bust as the entire Vikings situation has been relatively shocking this season. AP most likely missing the season due to something that is not injury related--then Rudolph getting hurt--and then Cassell--followed by Bridgewater showing signs of life--and then Brigdewater getting hurt---then Bridgewater returning but looking like an inexperienced rookie. I'm not sure if anybody could thrive under those circumstances.

The circumstances don't help, but the main issue is that he doesn't know how to play the position.

Agreed, through no fault of his own, it seems. He only had one year of top college coaching at the position, and after last year with the Vikes he was reported to have really worked on his game in the offseason.

Here's a really good article that gets into detail about his technique and why he still has a long way to go when running his routes. It also shows how unimaginative the coaches have been in showcasing Patterson's talents.

In redraft I've dropped him from all teams. In Dynasty/Keeper I'm holding him with a vice-like grip. He might be the most talented WR in the league with the ball in his hands. If he keeps working at his WR craft, he could be a stud in 2 years, starting to show flashes of it next year.

I think he's going to be one of those WRs that "gets" it around his 4th year, considering he only had one real year of college, where most studs have 3 under their belt.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

FWIW Patterson was dropped in my re-draft yesterday. It's shocking to see how far his value has dropped since the start of the season. It's hard to blame him for being a complete bust as the entire Vikings situation has been relatively shocking this season. AP most likely missing the season due to something that is not injury related--then Rudolph getting hurt--and then Cassell--followed by Bridgewater showing signs of life--and then Brigdewater getting hurt---then Bridgewater returning but looking like an inexperienced rookie. I'm not sure if anybody could thrive under those circumstances.

The circumstances don't help, but the main issue is that he doesn't know how to play the position.

Agreed, through no fault of his own, it seems. He only had one year of top college coaching at the position, and after last year with the Vikes he was reported to have really worked on his game in the offseason.

Here's a really good article that gets into detail about his technique and why he still has a long way to go when running his routes. It also shows how unimaginative the coaches have been in showcasing Patterson's talents.

In redraft I've dropped him from all teams. In Dynasty/Keeper I'm holding him with a vice-like grip. He might be the most talented WR in the league with the ball in his hands. If he keeps working at his WR craft, he could be a stud in 2 years, starting to show flashes of it next year.

I think he's going to be one of those WRs that "gets" it around his 4th year, considering he only had one real year of college, where most studs have 3 under their belt.

How imaginative should the coaches need to be? At some point, Patterson simply needs to learn how to run routes and be productive in a typical offensive scheme. Not every play can be "imaginative".

 

[EastonBlues22]

FWIW Patterson was dropped in my re-draft yesterday. It's shocking to see how far his value has dropped since the start of the season. It's hard to blame him for being a complete bust as the entire Vikings situation has been relatively shocking this season. AP most likely missing the season due to something that is not injury related--then Rudolph getting hurt--and then Cassell--followed by Bridgewater showing signs of life--and then Brigdewater getting hurt---then Bridgewater returning but looking like an inexperienced rookie. I'm not sure if anybody could thrive under those circumstances.

The circumstances don't help, but the main issue is that he doesn't know how to play the position.

Agreed, through no fault of his own, it seems. He only had one year of top college coaching at the position, and after last year with the Vikes he was reported to have really worked on his game in the offseason.

Here's a really good article that gets into detail about his technique and why he still has a long way to go when running his routes. It also shows how unimaginative the coaches have been in showcasing Patterson's talents.

In redraft I've dropped him from all teams. In Dynasty/Keeper I'm holding him with a vice-like grip. He might be the most talented WR in the league with the ball in his hands. If he keeps working at his WR craft, he could be a stud in 2 years, starting to show flashes of it next year.

I think he's going to be one of those WRs that "gets" it around his 4th year, considering he only had one real year of college, where most studs have 3 under their belt.

How imaginative should the coaches need to be? At some point, Patterson simply needs to learn how to run routes and be productive in a typical offensive scheme. Not every play can be "imaginative".

If the OC keeps saying that they need to get the ball in his hands more, and the head coach is frustrated because he needs to get open more, then perhaps it's in the team's best interests to work with what he currently is instead of continuing to try to cram a square peg into a round hole.

It's not like it would take a complete scheme overhaul to do this. Playing him in the slot more (currently 16% of his routes) would be a great start. That role plays perfectly to his current skill set. Lots of simple high percentage underneath routes that showcase his quickness and RAC skills, and he can be put in motion to put pressure on the defense. Put Jennings at X, where he can still perform adequately (and where many people thought he would play entering this year anyway).

Instead they keep throwing him out there at the X when his toolbox isn't yet equipped for that role, and grump when he doesn't perform like they want him to.

Patterson has his faults as a receiver, but there's plenty of legitimate criticism to level at the coaching staff here.

 

[devouredbychaos]

Finally dropped him..for James Jones. At least he's been a legit WR3. Still really like CP but they need to get that offense figured out first. Having him and Gordon stewing on my bench was just getting frustrating.

 

[jackdubl]

The coaches suck. I watch Percy Harvin be productive catching the ball almost exclusively on bubble screens, to the point that he is really more running back than wide receiver. Haven't seen one thrown to Patterson all season. Think of what Seattle would be doing if they had Patterson instead of Harvin.

 

[tandl71]

Dropped him in 12 team redraft PPR for Jarvis Landry WR MIA. I'll let him inflict himself upon some other team.

 

[JaxBill]

Chances are he explodes this weekend since I finally jettisoned him.

 

[Dondante]

Chances are he explodes this weekend since I finally jettisoned him.

You and everyone else on the planet, apparently. With 7 bench spots I'm holding.

 

[Milkman]

It seems pretty obvious that having Patterson line up in the slot more would be immediately beneficial to the team. The Viking's coaching staff might be lining Patterson out wide at the X to to get him as many routes as possible. An elite X receiver is one of the most valuable positions in football so it's understandable but it could backfire on them if he continues to struggle because he could lose confidence. At this point he's failing miserably outside. It could be beneficial for Patterson and the team for him to experience some success even if it's in the slot.

 

[Concept Coop]

It's not like it would take a complete scheme overhaul to do this. Playing him in the slot more (currently 16% of his routes) would be a great start. That role plays perfectly to his current skill set. Lots of simple high percentage underneath routes that showcase his quickness and RAC skills, and he can be put in motion to put pressure on the defense. Put Jennings at X, where he can still perform adequately (and where many people thought he would play entering this year anyway).

CP isn't quick in his routes. You still need to run good routes in the slot. He's not beating nickel backs in tight space and I don't think he's ready to make a living diagnosing zone coverage.

 

[jackdubl]

Chances are he explodes this weekend since I finally jettisoned him.

I have heard someone say this every week for the past three.

 

[Phenomena]

It's getting so pathetic that I can't even start him in a return yardage league. I thought he was a steal in a 16-teamer in the 4th round, considering he's virtually guaranteed 5 points every week, on top of whatever else he gets. Instead, he's only getting 5 points! I'm benching him for Vereen, Malcolm Floyd, or Hunter depending on match-ups.

 

[Hoss Style]

FWIW Patterson was dropped in my re-draft yesterday. It's shocking to see how far his value has dropped since the start of the season. It's hard to blame him for being a complete bust as the entire Vikings situation has been relatively shocking this season. AP most likely missing the season due to something that is not injury related--then Rudolph getting hurt--and then Cassell--followed by Bridgewater showing signs of life--and then Brigdewater getting hurt---then Bridgewater returning but looking like an inexperienced rookie. I'm not sure if anybody could thrive under those circumstances.

The circumstances don't help, but the main issue is that he doesn't know how to play the position.

Agreed, through no fault of his own, it seems. He only had one year of top college coaching at the position, and after last year with the Vikes he was reported to have really worked on his game in the offseason.

Here's a really good article that gets into detail about his technique and why he still has a long way to go when running his routes. It also shows how unimaginative the coaches have been in showcasing Patterson's talents.

In redraft I've dropped him from all teams. In Dynasty/Keeper I'm holding him with a vice-like grip. He might be the most talented WR in the league with the ball in his hands. If he keeps working at his WR craft, he could be a stud in 2 years, starting to show flashes of it next year.

I think he's going to be one of those WRs that "gets" it around his 4th year, considering he only had one real year of college, where most studs have 3 under their belt.

How imaginative should the coaches need to be? At some point, Patterson simply needs to learn how to run routes and be productive in a typical offensive scheme. Not every play can be "imaginative".

If you read the article you'd know what I was referring to. And you're absolutely right - you don't have to be that imaginative to get Patterson involved. Those screen passes and end arounds that he turns into long runs a ridiculously high percentage of the time are not really never before seen plays. The coaches just stopped giving him the opportunity to do them, for some reason.

I'm not saying I know why it stopped - I can only guess. The only thing I know is that when they were using him that way, he made some big plays out of them on occasion.

He still sucks at his technique, though, but seems to want to improve it. I can only hope, as an owner.

*Edit* to add - Easton said it best, above. I hadn't read his post yet.

 

[Macdaddy_2004]

I play in a return league where return yards get half as many points as receiving yards.

Last year he had the equivalent of a 1400 yard receiving season with 9 TD's!!!!!!!

He was about WR#16 at the end of the year but the last 6 games or so I think he was a monster.

I have to think at some point this train gets rolling - last year he was not good. If you play in a return league I think the biig plays are going to come soon.

 

[Insein]

Just traded him for Marques Colston. I was so high on this guy and that week 1 had me giddy. Each subsequent week though has been a slow and painful realization that he's just not ready. Maybe one day.

 

[Dondante]

Just traded him for Marques Colston. I was so high on this guy and that week 1 had me giddy. Each subsequent week though has been a slow and painful realization that he's just not ready. Maybe one day.

Man, I hate responses like this, but how? It seems like a similar player until you compare team/situation. Good for you but I don't get that one.

 

[ORC]

It obviously seems like a lost cause this year given what the Vikings are trying to do with him.

Totally out of left field, but maybe he's best served in a Darren Sproles type role. To me, there's a difference between being a "terrible player" and a "terrible route runner". Patterson led the league in yards per kick return last year. He's 5th in the NFL in that category this year. Even with the struggles this year, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who wouldn't agree that he's electric with the ball in his hands.

Sproles averaged about 3-4 carries per game and at his peak with the Saints, around 7 targets per game while operating out of the slot and the backfield. Sproles was always a guy who just had to have the ball in his hands to reach his potential. The Saints were willing to do what it took. An approach / position shift like that would also allow him to be productive while refining his route running.

But it is Norv after all.

 

[SameSongNDance]

How hard would it be for CP to beat his man on a go route I wonder.

 

[Warhogs]

How hard would it be for CP to beat his man on a go route I wonder.

I didn't watch the Vikings the last couple of weeks but based on what I have heard it would have been pretty hard last week because the QB only had like a second to throw before getting sacked.

 

[Concept Coop]

How hard would it be for CP to beat his man on a go route I wonder.

It's hard for everyone. They're usually a decoy to get something underneath. You have to create enough seperation that it can't be bridged while adjusting to the pass. In other words--it's one thing to get a step and another to maintain it while tracking and adjusting to the ball. And that's if it doesn't draw safety help and the protection holds up.

 

[cstu]

Before the season I was asking what the difference was between CP and Tavon. Here are their numbers so far:

CP: 33 targets for 17/204/0

Tavon: 11 targets for 9/102/0

 

[SameSongNDance]

How hard would it be for CP to beat his man on a go route I wonder.

It's hard for everyone. They're usually a decoy to get something underneath. You have to create enough seperation that it can't be bridged while adjusting to the pass. In other words--it's one thing to get a step and another to maintain it while tracking and adjusting to the ball. And that's if it doesn't draw safety help and the protection holds up.

Oh, I wasn't saying it was easy I'm just generally curious as to what CP is even good at. There definitely is still a lot of technique that goes into even running a straight line. Like, we all see how much of a stud he is with the ball in his hands but I feel like he must just be absolute #### on the field when the ball isn't in his hands. Imprecise route running, poor technique, timid in press coverage, not tracking back to the ball etc. etc, it's probably some combination of these and more. I think in today's NFL we all just expect the WRs who posses the necessary tools to break out ASAP but CP is probably at least a year away from being able to put it all together.

 

[Concept Coop]

Before the season I was asking what the difference was between CP and Tavon. Here are their numbers so far:

CP: 33 targets for 17/204/0

Tavon: 11 targets for 9/102/0

Per game:

CP: 5.5 targets for 2.8/34/0

Tavon: 2.72 for 2.25/25.2/0

Per target:

CP: 0.5/6.2/0

Tavon: 0.8/9.27/0

 

[cstu]

Tavon was hurt in the first quarter of week 2 (played 11 snaps) and was questionable week 5, playing 26 snaps.

In the two games he's been healthy he's averaged 4 targets and 3 carries a game.

 

[Milkman]

Well Patterson's coach hasn't been healthy all year.

 

[EastonBlues22]

It's not like it would take a complete scheme overhaul to do this. Playing him in the slot more (currently 16% of his routes) would be a great start. That role plays perfectly to his current skill set. Lots of simple high percentage underneath routes that showcase his quickness and RAC skills, and he can be put in motion to put pressure on the defense. Put Jennings at X, where he can still perform adequately (and where many people thought he would play entering this year anyway).

CP isn't quick in his routes. You still need to run good routes in the slot. He's not beating nickel backs in tight space and I don't think he's ready to make a living diagnosing zone coverage.

Depends. He can be quick when the route requires an early plant. As a general rule, though, I agree.

More to the point, it's easier to get him the ball without him "winning" a route. If the corner is playing off they can hit him with quick bubbles, slants, etc. The ball will get there faster due to his proximity to the QB, giving him more time and space to catch the ball and make a move. Put him in motion if the corner is trying to play press, then have him release on the run (or from a stacked/bunched WR formation on the other side). They should have a motion package for CP anyway just to put pressure on the defense.

Against zone he can run simple drags under clear-out routes. If he comes free, great. If he sucks up the attention of the DBs/linebackers to create space for someone else, that's great too.

There are plenty of conventional ways to "manufacture" touches for CP that don't rely on him beating straight coverage with a good route.

Anyway, CP has certainly performed well thus far in his limited body of work from the slot: Targeted on 19% of his 31 slot routes (as opposed to 14% of his 164 non-slot routes), with 5 catches on 6 targets for 82 yards. It's a limited sample, but that YPRR is still 2.5x anyone else on the team from the slot and it's much better than he's performing outside. What's more, Jennings is doing much better outside than he's doing from the slot (and better than CP's outside work as well). That alone should be enough of an argument for switching them.

 

[steveski]

I can't wait for this thread to get fun again. It's bound to happen....which week will it be?

 

[Insein]

I can't wait for this thread to get fun again. It's bound to happen....which week will it be?

17

 

[Futz]

I can't wait for this thread to get fun again. It's bound to happen....which week will it be?

Week 1 (2015)

Redraft :whiteflag:

 

[The Man With No Name]

I can't wait for this thread to get fun again. It's bound to happen....which week will it be?

Week 8 (@TB) or week 9 (vs. WAS). Heading into and during the BYE week > Will have plenty to discuss and project.

 

[FunkyPlutos]

Acquire him now...thank me later.

 

[LittlePhatty]

Acquire him now...thank me later.

I'm sure he can be had quite cheap. I'm trying to shop him in a return yards league and no one is interested.

 

[werdnoynek]

Acquire him now...thank me later.

What, this year, is going to change?

 

[Raiderfan32904]

Someone just droppped him in redraft. Tempted by his upside, but can't seem to find the room for him without blowing up my bye week lineups. I may regret not picking him up, but roster is tight.

 

[nelly29]

Think I may move him for Shorts.....

 

[Concept Coop]

Depends. He can be quick when the route requires an early plant. As a general rule, though, I agree.


More to the point, it's easier to get him the ball without him "winning" a route. If the corner is playing off they can hit him with quick bubbles, slants, etc. The ball will get there faster due to his proximity to the QB, giving him more time and space to catch the ball and make a move. Put him in motion if the corner is trying to play press, then have him release on the run (or from a stacked/bunched WR formation on the other side). They should have a motion package for CP anyway just to put pressure on the defense.

Against zone he can run simple drags under clear-out routes. If he comes free, great. If he sucks up the attention of the DBs/linebackers to create space for someone else, that's great too.

There are plenty of conventional ways to "manufacture" touches for CP that don't rely on him beating straight coverage with a good route.

Anyway, CP has certainly performed well thus far in his limited body of work from the slot: Targeted on 19% of his 31 slot routes (as opposed to 14% of his 164 non-slot routes), with 5 catches on 6 targets for 82 yards. It's a limited sample, but that YPRR is still 2.5x anyone else on the team from the slot and it's much better than he's performing outside. What's more, Jennings is doing much better outside than he's doing from the slot (and better than CP's outside work as well). That alone should be enough of an argument for switching them.

If it was this easy, Devin Hester would be HOF bound, for his offensive production.

Norv is very good, very trusted, very well respected OC. Maybe his system isn't a good fit for CP, but I don't buy the suggestion that Norv's the one that needs to change. He doesn't care about our fantasy teams. He doesn't care about CP's [SIZE=10.5pt]development[/SIZE] as a WR. And that's not just him--that's NFL coaches in general. They're coaching for their jobs each week and have little choice but to use the parts most likely to help them win--young QBs being one exception by mandate. CP isn't going to get his hand held at this level.

If the goalposts have moved to "maybe in the right offense with an org commited to his development, who will throw him X amount of screens a games along with X carries....," at what point does he join the large number of special athletes who aren't good enough football players to matter to our fantasy teams?

I just don't buy that Norv Turner is being out coached by a few guys in the Shark Pool--that if only he'd do X,Y, or Z, CP would lead his team to wins; or even a better offense.

 

[chad in Indy]

It's not like it would take a complete scheme overhaul to do this. Playing him in the slot more (currently 16% of his routes) would be a great start. That role plays perfectly to his current skill set. Lots of simple high percentage underneath routes that showcase his quickness and RAC skills, and he can be put in motion to put pressure on the defense. Put Jennings at X, where he can still perform adequately (and where many people thought he would play entering this year anyway).

CP isn't quick in his routes. You still need to run good routes in the slot. He's not beating nickel backs in tight space and I don't think he's ready to make a living diagnosing zone coverage.

Depends. He can be quick when the route requires an early plant. As a general rule, though, I agree.

More to the point, it's easier to get him the ball without him "winning" a route. If the corner is playing off they can hit him with quick bubbles, slants, etc. The ball will get there faster due to his proximity to the QB, giving him more time and space to catch the ball and make a move. Put him in motion if the corner is trying to play press, then have him release on the run (or from a stacked/bunched WR formation on the other side). They should have a motion package for CP anyway just to put pressure on the defense.

Against zone he can run simple drags under clear-out routes. If he comes free, great. If he sucks up the attention of the DBs/linebackers to create space for someone else, that's great too.

There are plenty of conventional ways to "manufacture" touches for CP that don't rely on him beating straight coverage with a good route.

Anyway, CP has certainly performed well thus far in his limited body of work from the slot: Targeted on 19% of his 31 slot routes (as opposed to 14% of his 164 non-slot routes), with 5 catches on 6 targets for 82 yards. It's a limited sample, but that YPRR is still 2.5x anyone else on the team from the slot and it's much better than he's performing outside. What's more, Jennings is doing much better outside than he's doing from the slot (and better than CP's outside work as well). That alone should be enough of an argument for switching them.

This is easier said than done and may work if they weren't dealing with a rookie QB. With defenses constantly jumping in/out of zone coverage and disguising their coverage, you would need a veteran (and good) QB to be able to audible the routes accordingly. Otherwise, your stuck guessing as to what coverage you think you might see.

Him running from the slot on a regular basis may be better for him, but I think it would be a greater detriment to the team. The slot position requires the need to create separation and diagnose coverage, how to adjust your route, etc. I wouldn't ask CP to chew gum and run routes at the same time, let alone think about what the defense is doing, how many yds he needs for the first down, where to sit on zone coverage, spot a blitz and switch to a "hot" route, etc. This link was posted above, and is well worth the read if you really want to see the struggles CP is having in regard to route running. Link.

I think the Vikings are already trying to call his number, but with him being a poor route runner, there are too many variables that still have to come together for him to get the touches. The only thing they are NOT doing is giving him the run plays, but I think that had to do more w/ his hip injury the past 2 weeks.

 

[Adam Harstad]

Before the season I was asking what the difference was between CP and Tavon. Here are their numbers so far:

CP: 33 targets for 17/204/0

Tavon: 11 targets for 9/102/0

CP: 1.05 yards per route run

TA: 1.73 yards per route run

Quarterbacks have produced a 40.7 passer rating on passes to CP

Quarterbacks have produced a 105.3 passer rating on passes to Austin

Quarterbacks have been intercepted 4 times when throwing to Patterson, tied for the highest figure in the league. Interceptions on targets is usually a great indicator that the quarterback is forcing the ball to the player in question; among the 8 receivers who were the intended target on 8 or more interceptions last year were A.J. Green (12 INTs), VJax (10 INTs), Calvin (9 INTs), Wallace (9 INTs), Andre (8 INTs), and Garcon (8 INTs). That's pretty much a who's-who of guys who got force-fed the ball.

CP is also among the league leader in passes intercepted per target, which is usually an indicator of a player who is running a lot of deep routes. Here's a list of all players who are averaging an INT on at least 1/8th of their targets (minimum 2 INTs), as well as what percentage of their total targets are coming deep down the field (20+ yards):

Robert Meachem (38%)

Marquise Goodwin (33%)

Donnie Avery (19%)

Cordarrelle Patterson (3%)

Those four players and Wes Welker are currently the only receivers in the league that have been targeted on multiple interceptions but no touchdowns.

The ungoodness of Cordarrelle Patterson's play as a receiver really is not in dispute. A pretty airtight case could be made that no team in the league has lost more value on targets to a single receiver than the Vikings have lost on targets to Cordarrelle Patterson, which is probably why his head coach got so pissed off when Patterson said he wanted to be more involved in the offense. (Zimmer's response: "He needs to get open. Pretty simple.")

 

[Insein]

Think I may move him for Shorts.....

Just a pair of them? Are they designer?

 

[Hoss Style]

Depends. He can be quick when the route requires an early plant. As a general rule, though, I agree.


More to the point, it's easier to get him the ball without him "winning" a route. If the corner is playing off they can hit him with quick bubbles, slants, etc. The ball will get there faster due to his proximity to the QB, giving him more time and space to catch the ball and make a move. Put him in motion if the corner is trying to play press, then have him release on the run (or from a stacked/bunched WR formation on the other side). They should have a motion package for CP anyway just to put pressure on the defense.

Against zone he can run simple drags under clear-out routes. If he comes free, great. If he sucks up the attention of the DBs/linebackers to create space for someone else, that's great too.

There are plenty of conventional ways to "manufacture" touches for CP that don't rely on him beating straight coverage with a good route.

Anyway, CP has certainly performed well thus far in his limited body of work from the slot: Targeted on 19% of his 31 slot routes (as opposed to 14% of his 164 non-slot routes), with 5 catches on 6 targets for 82 yards. It's a limited sample, but that YPRR is still 2.5x anyone else on the team from the slot and it's much better than he's performing outside. What's more, Jennings is doing much better outside than he's doing from the slot (and better than CP's outside work as well). That alone should be enough of an argument for switching them.

If it was this easy, Devin Hester would be HOF bound, for his offensive production.

Norv is very good, very trusted, very well respected OC.

We need to slow down a bit with the Norv praise. Having grown up in a heavily populated Washington fan area, I got to see (and hear) about Norv a lot.

He built his rep on the back of those Dallas super teams that won Super Bowls. He was a "great" OC because he had Aikman, Irvin, Emmit, Moose and an O Line that could move mountains. None of which he drafted. Just like Wannstedt found out (the DC on those Dallas teams) - coaching after Dallas wasn't too fun.

Let's look at his offenses after he left - Only San Diego had a consistently great one - and that wasn't due to ol' Norv. Sure, he's respected in the coaching community because he's been around the block and knows what he's doing. He also has one of the lowest winning percentages as a head coach of anyone who's coached the years he has.

When he came to San Diego I remember cheering as a Bronco fan. That Chargers team? Their offense was great (I think top 10 in the League? Maybe even top 5?). But you know what? They were that way before he got there. In fact, I believe they were better the year before. Let me go check that... Yep, the year before he got there they were better. Per PFR San Diego was #1 in the entire league in points and 4th in yards in 2006, the year before Norv. They slowly descended after his arrival.

He had a good year here and there in Washington, and pounded them into the ground (on offense) the rest of the years. I know, I was there watching on local TV every week. He took over a top NFL offense in San Diego and they slowly died until in his last year they were one of the worst in The League. The year after he left, the Chargers immediately shot back up near the top of the NFL in offense. I remember him leaving, and being so sad. The Chargers offense was explosive again. He did nothing in Cleveland as OC. Cleveland's offense has gotten better since he's left. He's doing nothing great in Minny as OC.

I hate to rant on good ol' Norv, but I had to counter your post. I grew up watching the guy because he either happened to coach a team local to me, or he was coaching in my team's division. He's a horrible head coach, and an average (at best) OC. His Dallas years have carried him. I've also read that he's a very likable guy, and he's good with his players - therefor he is able to hang around The League. When you need a stable guy to fill in before you find your real OC, you hire Norv.

No offense, Coop. You know what you're talking about and I appreciate that. This is just a rant on Norv. I'm trying to keep poor team's fans from thinking "Oh, we got Norv Turner! He's good! Right? I mean, he's been around so long, he has to be, right??"

I'll put money on Minny's offense taking an uptick if Norv leaves. Seriously, I'd put big money on it.

 

[valhallan]

I wonder if he'll go the Vernon Davis route. Tantalizing ability, but doesn't put it together until a coach calls him out.

 

[Concept Coop]

No offense, Coop. You know what you're talking about and I appreciate that. This is just a rant on Norv. I'm trying to keep poor team's fans from thinking "Oh, we got Norv Turner! He's good! Right? I mean, he's been around so long, he has to be, right??"

I'll put money on Minny's offense taking an uptick if Norv leaves. Seriously, I'd put big money on it.

None taken, and likewise.

I don't think you're being completely fair. When the offense does well, it's Troy Aikman. When it doesn't, it's Norv and not Gus Frerrote. The SD offense declining is due to Norv and not the offensive line crumbling. Cleveland is better the year after he leaves, so he doesn't get credit for the improvment over the prior season.

Everywhere he's been for more than 2 years--has been top half of the league in offense--including those Redskins years. In 9 of those 16 seasons, his teams were top 5 in points.

His system has worked when he's had the parts and/or the time to put it together. I don't think he's a great HC, but I do think he's a great offensive mind. He's certainly better suited to do his job than we are.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Norv is very good, very trusted, very well respected OC. Maybe his system isn't a good fit for CP, but I don't buy the suggestion that Norv's the one that needs to change. He doesn't care about our fantasy teams. He doesn't care about CP's development as a WR. And that's not just him--that's NFL coaches in general. They're coaching for their jobs each week and have little choice but to use the parts most likely to help them win--young QBs being one exception by mandate. CP isn't going to get his hand held at this level.

His system has worked when he's had the parts and/or the time to put it together. I don't think he's a great HC, but I do think he's a great offensive mind. He's certainly better suited to do his job than we are.

Minnesota is currently 28th in the NFL in total offense. Clearly, something needs to change.

I would generally reserve the "great offensive mind" statement for guys that can adapt and change their system for the personnel they have onboard. Think Chip Kelly putting together a top 3 offense with a pocket passer when his whole career has been running offenses built around running QBs.

Norv seems like one of those guys who has a system, and while it's a good one, that's the system he's going to run. Personnel be damned. When he has great players at the positions that his system stresses, it works well. When he doesn't, well, you get Matt Asiata banging his head into the line of scrimmage with your two most talented receivers both playing positions they struggle in on your way to the 28th ranked offense in the league.

 

[Hoss Style]

No offense, Coop. You know what you're talking about and I appreciate that. This is just a rant on Norv. I'm trying to keep poor team's fans from thinking "Oh, we got Norv Turner! He's good! Right? I mean, he's been around so long, he has to be, right??"

I'll put money on Minny's offense taking an uptick if Norv leaves. Seriously, I'd put big money on it.

None taken, and likewise.

I don't think you're being completely fair. When the offense does well, it's Troy Aikman. When it doesn't, it's Norv and not Gus Frerrote. The SD offense declining is due to Norv and not the offensive line crumbling. Cleveland is better the year after he leaves, so he doesn't get credit for the improvment over the prior season.

Everywhere he's been for more than 2 years--has been top half of the league in offense--including those Redskins years. In 9 of those 16 seasons, his teams were top 5 in points.

His system has worked when he's had the parts and/or the time to put it together. I don't think he's a great HC, but I do think he's a great offensive mind. He's certainly better suited to do his job than we are.

It's never fair to blame one person when a team does bad. I agree. But historically, Norv's teams have gotten worse on offense after he joined, and better when he left. The Chargers went from bottom of the barrel to one of the best in The League.

Also, if Norv was an anomaly in that he left the juggernaut Dallas and flopped at other stops, I might think he's just had bad luck. But other coaches have had the same issue when they left Dallas, or when Jimmy Johnson's players left or got old.

We'll just agree to disagree. Good discussion, either way.

 

[MrJimiT]

Before the season I was asking what the difference was between CP and Tavon. Here are their numbers so far:

CP: 33 targets for 17/204/0

Tavon: 11 targets for 9/102/0

CP: 1.05 yards per route run

TA: 1.73 yards per route run

Quarterbacks have produced a 40.7 passer rating on passes to CP

Quarterbacks have produced a 105.3 passer rating on passes to Austin

Quarterbacks have been intercepted 4 times when throwing to Patterson, tied for the highest figure in the league. Interceptions on targets is usually a great indicator that the quarterback is forcing the ball to the player in question; among the 8 receivers who were the intended target on 8 or more interceptions last year were A.J. Green (12 INTs), VJax (10 INTs), Calvin (9 INTs), Wallace (9 INTs), Andre (8 INTs), and Garcon (8 INTs). That's pretty much a who's-who of guys who got force-fed the ball.

CP is also among the league leader in passes intercepted per target, which is usually an indicator of a player who is running a lot of deep routes. Here's a list of all players who are averaging an INT on at least 1/8th of their targets (minimum 2 INTs), as well as what percentage of their total targets are coming deep down the field (20+ yards):

Robert Meachem (38%)

Marquise Goodwin (33%)

Donnie Avery (19%)

Cordarrelle Patterson (3%)

Those four players and Wes Welker are currently the only receivers in the league that have been targeted on multiple interceptions but no touchdowns.

The ungoodness of Cordarrelle Patterson's play as a receiver really is not in dispute. A pretty airtight case could be made that no team in the league has lost more value on targets to a single receiver than the Vikings have lost on targets to Cordarrelle Patterson, which is probably why his head coach got so pissed off when Patterson said he wanted to be more involved in the offense. (Zimmer's response: "He needs to get open. Pretty simple.")

Adam - this is some great analysis!! Thanks.

 

[Concept Coop]

Minnesota is currently 28th in the NFL in total offense. Clearly, something needs to change.
I would generally reserve the "great offensive mind" statement for guys that can adapt and change their system for the personnel they have onboard. Think Chip Kelly putting together a top 3 offense with a pocket passer when his whole career has been running offenses built around running QBs.

Norv seems like one of those guys who has a system, and while it's a good one, that's the system he's going to run. Personnel be damned. When he has great players at the positions that his system stresses, it works well. When he doesn't, well, you get Matt Asiata banging his head into the line of scrimmage with your two most talented receivers both playing positions they struggle in on your way to the 28th ranked offense in the league.

Of course Minny is awful on offense--look at the roster. Something does need to change; they need talent.

I'm fine with anyone who doesn't respect Norv the level that I do. And I'd agree--Chip looks brilliant right now and he has a chance to change the game much more than Norv has. I respect the hell out of Chip for having the stones to do what he's done--let alone it working.

As for him playing his guys at the wrong spots--CP's slot numbers are inflated due to a few plays which aren't sustainable. Jennings has played flanker/slot his entire career and been productive--it's his natural position.

 

[nelly29]

Think I may move him for Shorts.....

Just a pair of them? Are they designer?

I see what you did there.....