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Official Johnny Manziel Thread (1 Viewer)

daveR said:
Disclaimer: I did not see any of this kid's college games. All I have seen are some pre-season games, and one late-season NFL game.

I don't know what they see in him. Maybe it's a personality thing. Maybe it's "swagger".

I see a really small guy with a so-so arm. Somebody who gets flushed from the pocket more often than not. Somebody who will be crushed into the ground three or four times before his professional career ends.

I don't know how tall he really is, but Wilson looks much bigger to me. Neither does he look strong. Really wish Dallas had drafted him.
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You missed one of the greatest college players of all time imo.

Top 5 on my list.

He has a ways to go here, but I am not doubting he can do it. Hoping McCown can be adequate for a half a season before he goes in.

 
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I don't know how tall he really is, but Wilson looks much bigger to me.
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I met Wilson right after he was drafted and he seemed huge for his size - looked like a SS.

Manziel needs to hit the weights and put on at least 10 lbs. to survive in the league.

 
ESPN coverage and NFL Network coverage has given Manziel positive reviews last nigh.

Yet there are still haters in this thread...haters gonna hate.

 
As a Browns fan, I hope he becomes great. Neither have I ever been a hater. Never bought any rose-colored glasses, though.

 
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cstu said:
I don't know how tall he really is, but Wilson looks much bigger to me.
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I met Wilson right after he was drafted and he seemed huge for his size - looked like a SS.

Manziel needs to hit the weights and put on at least 10 lbs. to survive in the league.
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Really?

Manziel 207 lbs

Wilson 204 lbs

 
Put together very differently though. Just google image them (I rechecked to verify earlier impressions), Wilson has a significantly larger and more powerful looking upper body.

 
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Bob Magaw said:
Put together very differently though. Just google image them (I rechecked to verify earlier impressions), Wilson has a significantly larger and more powerful looking upper body.
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Really a stretch to say it is much of a significance either way.

The two are eerily similar across the board in body types.

 
Carter_Can_Fly said:
Bob Magaw said:
Put together very differently though. Just google image them (I rechecked to verify earlier impressions), Wilson has a significantly larger and more powerful looking upper body.
Click to expand...
Really a stretch to say it is much of a significance either way.The two are eerily similar across the board in body types.
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Really a stretch to look at them and not see their upper bodies are significantly different, imo. I'm not seeing what you are, and disagree.

Google image Wilson and about 20 rows down (on my pad screen) is a photo with a sleeveless white t sirt (from Men's Fitness?). Like cstu noted, he is legitimately built like a SS.

Than the same, about 10 rows deep for Manziel, in a red A&M jersey, without shoulder pads. His shoulders are dramatically narrower, it really isn't even close. It is possible to have a similar weight and be built differently. To put it differently, if you polled 32 GMs, who has a more ideal build given their height and weight, I'm guessing it would be close to unanimous in favor of Wilson, 32-0. How close could they be?

 
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Manziel will be a physical outlier if he succeeds in the NFL, which I think is part of his appeal.

Nothing wrong with being an outlier and it can actually be a huge asset in leadership roles.

 
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Freelove said:
Carter_Can_Fly said:
Bob Magaw said:
Put together very differently though. Just google image them (I rechecked to verify earlier impressions), Wilson has a significantly larger and more powerful looking upper body.
Click to expand...
Really a stretch to say it is much of a significance either way.

The two are eerily similar across the board in body types.
Click to expand...
Russ

Johnny Football

Brady

Eli

Draw your own conclusions.
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Christ, I'm in far better physical shape then all 4 of those dudes. Obviously I'm void of real talent, but I'm shocked at how dumpy they look, other then Brady who has not looked like that in awhile.

 
Freelove said:
Carter_Can_Fly said:
Bob Magaw said:
Put together very differently though. Just google image them (I rechecked to verify earlier impressions), Wilson has a significantly larger and more powerful looking upper body.
Click to expand...
Really a stretch to say it is much of a significance either way.The two are eerily similar across the board in body types.
Click to expand...
Russ

Johnny Football

Brady

]Eli

Draw your own conclusions.
Click to expand...
The moral for me, if you are a pocket passer, it is OK to look like the before picture in a Charles Atlas ad (does Eli have the current active longest consecutive games played streak?). If you are a running QB, it is better to be built like a brick ####house like Wilson (or Kaepernick, or have near DE-size like Cam). Manziel has a Brady/Manning build, but a Wilson game, an ominous combination. If he evolves into more of a pocket passer, that would lessen the concern. Wilson is so smart and already accomplished in the pocket, he can pick his shots more effectively. For every QB like Wilson that makes the transition from running QB in college to running QB in the NFL, there are dozens that don't/can't.
 
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Todem said:
Bri said:
Todem said:
Manziel still looks like a deer in headlights. He has a long ways to go. No doubt the kid has oodles of talent. He made a couple of beautiful plays on his TD drive. The roll out pass down field was great, and the play action 3 step drop and fire to the end zone was picture perfect.
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What do you mean here? It doesn't seem to matchup with the deer in headlights comment
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A lot of times he was a deer in headlights....but he managed to make a few nice plays. He is very raw, and still young. I am not a believer but I also am not going to completely write him off. He may hang on as career backup...maybe.

He has a looooooooong way to go.
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I don't know about this.

This might be we're focusing too much on Manziel and overkill. Tom Brady looks like aww (curse) when everyone is covered and frustrated til he barks at them after the play. I wouldn't call him deer in headlights. Some of those looks are geesh the Browns need some stinkin' WRs

Didn't he start 9 of 11? He's got his eyes downfield, excellent accuracy there....too much about a look IMO

 
Manziel's WRs were horrible and there were several penalties while he was under center...that's where a lot of the looks were coming from.

I didn't see a "deer in headlights" at all...nor did any other analysts that have reviewed the game.

 
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Carter_Can_Fly said:
cstu said:
I don't know how tall he really is, but Wilson looks much bigger to me.
Click to expand...
I met Wilson right after he was drafted and he seemed huge for his size - looked like a SS.

Manziel needs to hit the weights and put on at least 10 lbs. to survive in the league.
Click to expand...
Really?

Manziel 207 lbs

Wilson 204 lbs
Click to expand...
I want Johnny to have success since he seems to be putting it together, but I don't care what those listed weights are; Wilson is way more muscular and built for football than Johnny is. However Wilson is about 4 yrs older

 
Bob Magaw said:
Freelove said:
Carter_Can_Fly said:
Bob Magaw said:
Put together very differently though. Just google image them (I rechecked to verify earlier impressions), Wilson has a significantly larger and more powerful looking upper body.
Click to expand...
Really a stretch to say it is much of a significance either way.The two are eerily similar across the board in body types.
Click to expand...
RussJohnny Football

Brady

]Eli

Draw your own conclusions.
Click to expand...
The moral for me, if you are a pocket passer, it is OK to look like the before picture in a Charles Atlas ad (does Eli have the current active longest consecutive games played streak?). If you are a running QB, itt is better to be built like a brick ####house like Wilson (or Kaepernick, or have near DE-size like Cam). Manziel has a Brady/Manning build, but a Wilson game, an ominous combination. If he evolves into more of a pocket passer, that would lessen the concern. Wilson is so smart and already accomplished in the pocket, he can pick his shots more effectively. For every QB like Wilson that makes the transition from running QB in college to running QB in the NFL, there are dozens that don't/can't.
Click to expand...
I think this is a totally reasonable conclusion to draw.

 
Freelove said:
Carter_Can_Fly said:
Bob Magaw said:
Put together very differently though. Just google image them (I rechecked to verify earlier impressions), Wilson has a significantly larger and more powerful looking upper body.
Click to expand...
Really a stretch to say it is much of a significance either way.The two are eerily similar across the board in body types.
Click to expand...
Russ

Johnny Football

Brady

]Eli

Draw your own conclusions.
Click to expand...
Eli is a giant. He makes that pail look so tiny.

 
Culpepper had an awesome physique and didn't last long

McGwire's brother in SEA

It's not everything

I like to see if "my gut" tells me this guy is tough or not tough, glass jaw or can take a hit.

I think it's a better indicator of injury when they bounce back up from a sack or roll around whining than using their size as an indicator

 
Bri said:
Culpepper had an awesome physique and didn't last long

McGwire's brother in SEA

It's not everything

I like to see if "my gut" tells me this guy is tough or not tough, glass jaw or can take a hit.

I think it's a better indicator of injury when they bounce back up from a sack or roll around whining than using their size as an indicator
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More importantly, can he play smart like a Brees or Peyton, and just avoid most of the hits altogether.

 
  • Smile
Reactions: Bri
Bri said:
Culpepper had an awesome physique and didn't last long

McGwire's brother in SEA

It's not everything

I like to see if "my gut" tells me this guy is tough or not tough, glass jaw or can take a hit.

I think it's a better indicator of injury when they bounce back up from a sack or roll around whining than using their size as an indicator
Click to expand...
Culpepper did have success, but battled knee injuries. McGwire was like 6'8"? No QB has ever succeeded at that height (though that may be a loaded stat, as how many have there been?). Flacco may be the tallest current starter. If Osweiler succeeds Manning and does well, he will be an outlier. Historically, the Raiders Marc Wilson (BYU?) was about 6'6", the tallest QB I can recall from that era.

There is the occasional Brees or Wilson (or Flutie), but again, for every one of them, there are dozens that never make it. Is it impossible? Of course not. But Manziel is facing extremely long odds to ever do well enough to make a Wilson comparison apt.

Carter has invoked the Wilson comp before (in a skill context), but other than that they both have faces and internal skeletons, I see more differences than similarities. Wilson played in college in a way, that in retrospect, now that we know height isn't the issue many feared, would translate as a pro. Some of Manziel's playground penchant hallmarks (Johnny jump ball to Evans, Three Stooges scrambles) aren't as obviously translatable to the NFL.

I do think he has more potential than McCown (not exactly going out on a limb there), and should and will get his chance soon. The CLE WRs were mentioned above. Wilson has certainly benefited from the league's best defense, and the presence of Lynch, neither of which Manziel has, but he has excelled with suboptimal receiving weapons. CLE does have an above average OL, which could help in his development.

 
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Bob Magaw said:
There is the occasional Brees or Wilson (or Flutie), but again, for every one of them, there are dozens that never make it. Is it impossible? Of course not. But Manziel is facing extremely long odds to ever do well enough to make a Wilson comparison apt.
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Doesn't seem very fair to lump Johnny in with every other QB...because none of those players can say this...

"He broke numerous NCAA Division I FBS and SEC records, which include becoming the first freshman and fifth player in NCAA history to pass for 3,000 yards and rush for 1,000 yards in a season.[4] At the end of the regular season, he became the first freshman to win the Heisman Trophy,[5]Manning Award,[6] and the Davey O'Brien National Quarterback Award.[7]""

If we are going to make comparisons, let's at least try to make fair comparisons.

 
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pantherclub said:
^he had no choice
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That's often the case for people in recovery. It can also be called "the bottom" Addict realizes

They're throwing their life away by continuing the behavior. Bloom has aptly titled this "career near death experience" Having an opinion doesn't make one a good judge of character.

 
TripItUp said:
Manziel will be a physical outlier if he succeeds in the NFL, which I think is part of his appeal.

Nothing wrong with being an outlier and it can actually be a huge asset in leadership roles.
Click to expand...
The Wilson comparisons (for good or bad) began in a size context.

It sounds like you agree with me, his size is a strike against him.

 
Bob Magaw said:
TripItUp said:
Manziel will be a physical outlier if he succeeds in the NFL, which I think is part of his appeal.

Nothing wrong with being an outlier and it can actually be a huge asset in leadership roles.
Click to expand...
The Wilson comparisons (for good or bad) began in a size context.

It sounds like you agree with me, his size is a strike against him.
Click to expand...
Totally agree, just as it was a strike against Brees and Wilson.

 
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TripItUp said:
Bob Magaw said:
Tebow was one of the greatest collegiate QBs ever.

And that means exactly nothing in terms of skills translating to the NFL.
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And still, Tebow wasn't the Hesiman as a Freshman.

Another bad comparison.
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Comparisons can be made in and across many dimensions, not just one or two artificial, cookie cutter ones you are trying to narrowly circumscribe the conversation to.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that in the history of college football, Jameis Winston is the only QB that can be compared to Manziel, because he is the only one to win the Heismann as a Freshman? That seems like an absurd, untenable position. The art of making good comps in seeing if there are precedents (good or bad) with similar attributes and traits by necessity needs material for said comparisons. Arbitrarily lopping off 99.9% of the possibility search space is definitely going in the wrong direction.

If Manziel is to succeed, Wilson probably is his closest size (if not skill) comp. What do Manziel and Winston have in common? Practically nothing. I fail to see why it makes sense to restrict comparisons only to him, that is an arbitrary restriction.

The point about Tebow is that his above average running skills and below average passing skills didn't translate well to the NFL. If that proves true for Manziel, that will have far more to do with how he fares in the NFL, in other words, WHAT THEY HAD IN COMMON, than a superficial difference in what year they won the Heismann.

If winning the Heismann was tightly correlated with a high level of pro success, your point might be more meaningful, but since it clearly isn't, it is unclear what if anything it suggests about how translatable his skills are.

QB winners since the merger:

'70 - Jim Plunkett

'71 - Pat Sullivan

'84 - Doug Flutie

'86 - Vinny Testeverde

'89 - Andre Ware

'90 - Ty Detmer

'92 - Gino Toretta

'93 - Charlie Ward

'96 - Danny Wuerffel

'00 - Chris Weinke

'01 - Eric Crouch

'02 - Carson Palmer

'03 - Jason White

'04 - Matt Leinart

'06 - Troy Smith

'07 - Tim Tebow

'08 - Sam Bradford

'10 - Cam Newton

'11 - Robert Griffin III

'12 - Johnny Manziel

'13 - Jameis Winston

'14 - Marcus Mariota

22 QBs, Plunkett, Palmer and Newton have done the best, not a stellar ratio. All three were significantly bigger. Size-wise (and in his running propensity), Manziel far more closely resembles the many failures from this list.

 
TripItUp said:
Bob Magaw said:
TripItUp said:
Manziel will be a physical outlier if he succeeds in the NFL, which I think is part of his appeal.

Nothing wrong with being an outlier and it can actually be a huge asset in leadership roles.
Click to expand...
The Wilson comparisons (for good or bad) began in a size context.

It sounds like you agree with me, his size is a strike against him.
Click to expand...
Totally agree, just as it was a strike against Brees and Wilson.
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They overcame long odds, one reason there are just 2/32 QBs we could point to across the league landscape with their size/success profile. MAYBE his career will unfold similarly, but I wouldn't bet on it. How many QBs with similar profiles were drafted that failed for every Brees and Wilson that succeeded. Chances are, Manziel falls into that category.

Our odds are as good to win the lotto as the guy that won earlier this week. I'm not getting why I'm supposed to be excited about that prospect? Some people find $100 bills on the street. Bully for them. I wouldn't want to count on that as a source of income. :)

 
Bob Magaw said:
I fail to see why it makes sense to restrict comparisons only to him, that is an arbitrary restriction.
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Because Johnny, by definition, is different than every other QB in the history of the game. This is my point.

That is what makes his scenario so interesting. There has never been another QB like him.

You can compare Wilson to Manziel, but the fact is that Wilson couldn't carry Johnny's jockstrap in college.

 
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Above you said Tebow was a bad comparison because he didn't win the Heismann as a Freshman.

But Winston also did, so now you are making bad comps in saying he is singular. As I pointed out, their game is nothing alike, but since you made a somewhat pedantic distinction about the Freshman Heismann, unless you want to play switchy changey with the distinction that was important to you a few posts ago, he isn't unique.

Every QB is different from every other QB in the history of the game at some level, but that is a trivial distinction. Of far greater importance, imo, is you can find patterns and identifiable similarities in attributes and traits, for good and bad. Imo, stating there has never been another QB like him in the history of the league is way over the top. There have been many QBs that could both run and pass at a high level. Such as Tebow (at least in college, in the NFL was another story). Again, when they won the Heismann won't be as important as their similarities in game, for his pro projections. If differences with some of his predecessors are more of degree than kind in nature (Tebow also threw for 3,000+ yards, and ran for close to 1,000 yards, if not the same year), than the whole Johnny Singularity argument loses steam.

You may be failing to account for the fact that stats and accomplishments from different eras often reflect, as much as differences in talent, differences in OPPORTUNITY. What is more likely. In two of the past three years, coincidentally, Manziel and Winston are two of the greatest college QBs in history? Or simply a mundane reflection of their playing in an era of inflated passing stats which saw them better positioned to succeed at a high level early.

I can't go along with your method or some of the distinctions you are trying to make (Johnny Singularity), if you are completely abdicating the ability to simply look at QBs and observe their MANY obvious comparisons IN TERMS OF GAME AND SKILL. I'm saying his college game may not translate, and you are saying he was a great college player. That is exactly the point I think you are missing. If college success or winning Heismanns has effectively almost nil predictive power in projecting NFL success, so what if he did some good things (like his predecessors) earlier, if they are earlier good things that don't matter?

To cut to the chase, one of the easiest and most direct paths to refuting your rationale would be to point out that, by your criteria, Manziel was a better prospect than Andrew Luck at a comparable stage of development, because he won the Heismann as a Freshman, and was a better runner. But that is obviously nonsense. Luck was drafted #1 overall, and Manziel went in the 20s. Manziel's college success, great as it was, is completely meaningless, if he can't translate those skills to the NFL. QBs being unable to sniff his jock in college, means basically nothing, if he can't sniff Luck's jock as a pro. Again, since college success often doesn't translate to pro success, college jock sniffing is completely beside and misses the point.

 
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TripItUp said:
Bob Magaw said:
I fail to see why it makes sense to restrict comparisons only to him, that is an arbitrary restriction.
Click to expand...
Because Johnny, by definition, is different than every other QB in the history of the game. This is my point.

That is what makes his scenario so interesting. There has never been another QB like him.

You can compare Wilson to Manziel, but the fact is that Wilson couldn't carry Johnny's jockstrap in college.
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:lmao:

Yeah. No.

He's a slightly less athletic Tommy Frazier, Turner Gill, Eric Crouch, or Scott Frost, if Nebraska had run a spread. All great pros, by the way.

 
And my god, please note: those aren't anywhere near the only ones. Any little piss-ant QB with a bit of athleticism on either a spread/run-n-shoot O, or an option O would have done. A&M just did a bit of both. Johnny's passing numbers were entirely due to system and surrounding talent, and his running numbers were entirely due to system.

No competent NFL GM (read: nobody but the dumb-### Browns, and only then upon mandate from the owner) thought of him as a real NFL talent. And only yahoos desperate to cling to college memories still carry a torch for him. Time to let go.

Let go of Tebow, too.

 
TripItUp said:
Bob Magaw said:
I fail to see why it makes sense to restrict comparisons only to him, that is an arbitrary restriction.
Click to expand...
Because Johnny, by definition, is different than every other QB in the history of the game. This is my point.

That is what makes his scenario so interesting. There has never been another QB like him.

You can compare Wilson to Manziel, but the fact is that Wilson couldn't carry Johnny's jockstrap in college.
Click to expand...
This aint college

 
pantherclub said:
TripItUp said:
Bob Magaw said:
I fail to see why it makes sense to restrict comparisons only to him, that is an arbitrary restriction.
Click to expand...
Because Johnny, by definition, is different than every other QB in the history of the game. This is my point.

That is what makes his scenario so interesting. There has never been another QB like him.

You can compare Wilson to Manziel, but the fact is that Wilson couldn't carry Johnny's jockstrap in college.
Click to expand...
This aint college
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So you agree with the positive reviews by nearly every analyst over the past few days!

:hifive:

 
TripItUp said:
pantherclub said:
TripItUp said:
Bob Magaw said:
I fail to see why it makes sense to restrict comparisons only to him, that is an arbitrary restriction.
Click to expand...
Because Johnny, by definition, is different than every other QB in the history of the game. This is my point.

That is what makes his scenario so interesting. There has never been another QB like him.

You can compare Wilson to Manziel, but the fact is that Wilson couldn't carry Johnny's jockstrap in college.
Click to expand...
This aint college
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So you agree with the positive reviews by nearly every analyst over the past few days!

:hifive:
Click to expand...
You are either blind or fishing.
 
pantherclub said:
TripItUp said:
sbonomo said:
Are we all on the same page yet that he is not a starting NFL QB?
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nope, he'll be starting by midseason in Cleveland.
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lol
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pantherclub said:
TripItUp said:
sbonomo said:
Are we all on the same page yet that he is not a starting NFL QB?
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nope, he'll be starting by midseason in Cleveland.
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lol
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Unfortunately, it is entirely probable he does.

Could be a 3-13 team.

 
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