Patriots being investigated after Colts game (2 Viewers)

davearm · May 19, 2015

Kool-Aid Larry said:
davearm said:

Kool-Aid Larry said:

davearm said:

espnespn said:

Actually, if you believe 100% of what the refs said in the Wells Report, then McNally never had a chance to deflate balls in past games, because the balls are brought from the locker room to the field with the officials. Unless you think McNally was deflating balls on the sidelines and somehow never got caught on camera.

"Anderson understood that McNally was moving the balls to the sitting room area of the locker room, so that it would be more convenient for the officials to pick them up on their way out to the field. Anderson said that it is typical for locker room attendants throughout the League to help move the game balls towards the front of the locker room, but that the footballs do not leave the locker room until the officials give express permission for them to be brought to the field at or near the time the officials also walk to the field. Numerous other game officials described a similar practice."

Click to expand...

McNally is the Officials' Locker Room Attendant. He's alone in the locker room with the footballs, post inspection, for roughly 15-20 minutes on gameday, while the officials are on the field for their warmups.

That room is typically empty at that time, but was buzzing with activity during the AFCCG, a) because there were just more league folks in attendance that day, and b) because the NFCCG was airing on the TV, and folks were milling around watching it.

It's pretty obvious (to me anyway) that if all of this is true, then McNally typically does his dirty work in the refs' room while they warm up, but he was forced to improvise during the AFCCG due to all the traffic in the room that day.

Click to expand...

how much air does he let out while doing his dirty work?

Click to expand...

We'd have to ask Tom Brady.

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for a bunch of guys who have this all figured out, and with all the measurements and data of the wells report to draw on, you're all pretty evasive about this ---- I can never get a straight answer to this question, only smartass comments.

why would we need to ask tom brady anything if all the balls have been gauged and recorded in a 240 page document?

either something happened or it didn't --- all I'm asking is what you're accusing them of, specifically.

or did you just see the ball on tv and it didn't look right to you?

You've made it to this point and you're still unclear about what the Patriots are accused of? Tell me you're joking here.

They're accused of taking the footballs, post inspection, and surreptitiously letting air out of them, in direct violation of the rules.

Exactly how much air is released is irrelevant. There's no amount that would make this activity OK.

davearm · May 19, 2015

Kool-Aid Larry said:
Milton Britton, the regular season k-ball coordinator for the Patriots

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this guy was in on it, too?

is his interview in the report?

Britton's name is on the list of individuals that were interviewed.

Kool-Aid Larry · May 19, 2015

if you have all these recorded measurements and still have no idea how much air they let out, how do you know they let any out at all?

I understand if you witnessed the guy doing it the amount would be irrelevant, but since you didn't see it happen, and are working backwards solely from evidence that it happened based on these recorded measurements, I'd like to know what it is you're complaining about.

why so continually evasive --- were the balls low or not?

how much air was let out?

the first 150 pages of this thread was pretty much you internet detectives making accusations off made up numbers that turned out to be false.

now you have all the correct numbers --- so what was the damage?

David Dodds · May 19, 2015

Anyone read this book about Spygate?

http://www.amazon.com/Spygate-Untold-Story-Bryan-OLeary/dp/0985467002/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1349970716&sr=8-1&keywords=spygate+the+untold+story

Has a lot of positive reviews. Supposedly uncovers TONS of dirt about the Patriots that Goodell's office covered up for the good of the league. But in agreeing to destroying evidence and covering things up, he demanded from Kraft that this nonsense of pushing every edge stops.

That was all fine until the Patriots were caught cheating again. And before Patriots nation scream nothing has been proven, etc...we get back to one simple fact:

The Indianapolis Colts alerted the NFL that this would happen in the game they were about to play. And like clockwork, it happened. The Patriots balls were well below the spec.

You know what La'el Collins did when everyone was accusing him of stuff? He took a lie detector test. What did the Patriots do? They stone-walled the investigation from the beginning (one interview per person only), not turning over records, lying about relationships, etc.

The racheting up from the Patriots and Commish's office is entertaining. I see no way this ends well for the Patriots even if the league lessens the penalties. The commish no longer is going to look away and I don't think the Patriots are willing to not try and push every possible edge.

I can see Goodell fining the Patriots every week for not submitting an accurate injury report.

and heaven forbid if New England is still doing any of these other things found in the Spygate book above. That's hammer time.

Goodell was in New England's pocket for Kraft getting him the job and his big raise. For Goodell to turn on that, I am convinced he has ample proof that new England is not honoring their end of the deal he made with them during Spygate. What would Goodell's motivation be to discredit a star in the league and the team that just won the Super Bowl? Goodell has no motive to do this. He wins by this being pushed under the rug again. Yet Goodell is not letting that happen at all. He is digging in. He will be hearing the appeal, etc.

Today, Goodell is not in New England's pocket and I think it's safe to say he never will be again. Unless Kraft can get the backing of the owners and they can oust Goodell, he is going to find the sledding very rough very soon. The problem with escalation is there can be no winners. And it's all pointing to a grand finale where Goodell and Kraft both self-destruct.

Jercules · May 19, 2015

David Dodds said:
Anyone read this book about Spygate?

http://www.amazon.com/Spygate-Untold-Story-Bryan-OLeary/dp/0985467002/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1349970716&sr=8-1&keywords=spygate+the+untold+story

Has a lot of positive reviews. Supposedly uncovers TONS of dirt about the Patriots that Goodell's office covered up for the good of the league. But in agreeing to destroying evidence and covering things up, he demanded from Kraft that this nonsense of pushing every edge stops.

That was all fine until the Patriots were caught cheating again. And before Patriots nation scream nothing has been proven, etc...we get back to one simple fact:

The Indianapolis Colts alerted the NFL that this would happen in the game they were about to play. And like clockwork, it happened. The Patriots balls were well below the spec.

You know what La'el Collins did when everyone was accusing him of stuff? He took a lie detector test. What did the Patriots do? They stone-walled the investigation from the beginning (one interview per person only), not turning over records, lying about relationships, etc.

The racheting up from the Patriots and Commish's office is entertaining. I see no way this ends well for the Patriots even if the league lessens the penalties. The commish no longer is going to look away and I don't think the Patriots are willing to not try and push every possible edge.

I can see Goodell fining the Patriots every week for not submitting an accurate injury report.

and heaven forbid if New England is still doing any of these other things found in the Spygate book above. That's hammer time.

Goodell was in New England's pocket for Kraft getting him the job and his big raise. For Goodell to turn on that, I am convinced he has ample proof that new England is not honoring their end of the deal he made with them during Spygate. What would Goodell's motivation be to discredit a star in the league and the team that just won the Super Bowl? Goodell has no motive to do this. He wins by this being pushed under the rug again. Yet Goodell is not letting that happen at all. He is digging in. He will be hearing the appeal, etc.

Today, Goodell is not in New England's pocket and I think it's safe to say he never will be again. Unless Kraft can get the backing of the owners and they can oust Goodell, he is going to find the sledding very rough very soon. The problem with escalation is there can be no winners. And it's all pointing to a grand finale where Goodell and Kraft both self-destruct.

That's the problem with these giant threads. Just when you think you've made some progress, and have delved into the issues a bit with friends and foes alike, some newbie comes along and posts the stuff we dealt with 100 pages ago.

And plenty of fiction is well-reviewed, so I don't see the point there.

Latest theory to chew on: Goodell knew any sane independent arbitrator would carpet his doghouse with the Wells report, so he had to fix it so that he would hear Brady's appeal.

Baloney Sandwich · May 19, 2015

I haven't yet got around to reading the self-published book by a life long Steelers fan who happens to have zero contacts within the NFL but happens to be the guy who uncovers a giant conspiracy within the NFL.

Bayhawks · May 19, 2015

Jercules said:
David Dodds said:

Anyone read this book about Spygate?

http://www.amazon.com/Spygate-Untold-Story-Bryan-OLeary/dp/0985467002/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1349970716&sr=8-1&keywords=spygate+the+untold+story

Has a lot of positive reviews. Supposedly uncovers TONS of dirt about the Patriots that Goodell's office covered up for the good of the league. But in agreeing to destroying evidence and covering things up, he demanded from Kraft that this nonsense of pushing every edge stops.

That was all fine until the Patriots were caught cheating again. And before Patriots nation scream nothing has been proven, etc...we get back to one simple fact:

The Indianapolis Colts alerted the NFL that this would happen in the game they were about to play. And like clockwork, it happened. The Patriots balls were well below the spec.

You know what La'el Collins did when everyone was accusing him of stuff? He took a lie detector test. What did the Patriots do? They stone-walled the investigation from the beginning (one interview per person only), not turning over records, lying about relationships, etc.

The racheting up from the Patriots and Commish's office is entertaining. I see no way this ends well for the Patriots even if the league lessens the penalties. The commish no longer is going to look away and I don't think the Patriots are willing to not try and push every possible edge.

I can see Goodell fining the Patriots every week for not submitting an accurate injury report.

and heaven forbid if New England is still doing any of these other things found in the Spygate book above. That's hammer time.

Goodell was in New England's pocket for Kraft getting him the job and his big raise. For Goodell to turn on that, I am convinced he has ample proof that new England is not honoring their end of the deal he made with them during Spygate. What would Goodell's motivation be to discredit a star in the league and the team that just won the Super Bowl? Goodell has no motive to do this. He wins by this being pushed under the rug again. Yet Goodell is not letting that happen at all. He is digging in. He will be hearing the appeal, etc.

Today, Goodell is not in New England's pocket and I think it's safe to say he never will be again. Unless Kraft can get the backing of the owners and they can oust Goodell, he is going to find the sledding very rough very soon. The problem with escalation is there can be no winners. And it's all pointing to a grand finale where Goodell and Kraft both self-destruct.

Click to expand...

That's the problem with these giant threads. Just when you think you've made some progress, and have delved into the issues a bit with friends and foes alike, some newbie comes along and posts the stuff we dealt with 100 pages ago.

And plenty of fiction is well-reviewed, so I don't see the point there.

Latest theory to chew on: Goodell knew any sane independent arbitrator would carpet his doghouse with the Wells report, so he had to fix it so that he would hear Brady's appeal.

Great theory. Were Marty McFly and Doc Brown in on it? Because the CBA that the players union agreed to in 2011 specifically says Goodell has the power to hear appeals of player punishment himself (if he chooses to do so).

So unless you think Goodell was planning this back when the CBA was being hammered out in 2011, he didn't have to "fix" anything so that he would hear Brady's appeal, he only had to exercise the right that Brady (and the rest of the NFL players) gave him.

Bayhawks · May 19, 2015

Kool-Aid Larry said:
Bayhawks said:

So Brady didn't know what the rule was, but he was one of the people mainly responsible for getting the rule changed that allowed home teams to prepare their own balls? And he's the same guy who admonished the Ravens to "read the rule book?".

While its certainly possible for it to be true that he didn't know the rule, even the most die-hard Pats fan has to understand why not everyone is going to blindly accept this as the gospel truth.

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home teams always prepared their own balls --- what are you talking about?

Inadvertently typed "home" instead of "road." I think (to anyone who has stayed up-to-date in the thread or has been following this situation) it was clear what I meant.

Bayhawks · May 19, 2015

Kool-Aid Larry said:
Run It Up said:

Bayhawks said:

So Brady didn't know what the rule was, but he was one of the people mainly responsible for getting the rule changed that allowed home teams to prepare their own balls? And he's the same guy who admonished the Ravens to "read the rule book?".

While its certainly possible for it to be true that he didn't know the rule, even the most die-hard Pats fan has to understand why not everyone is going to blindly accept this as the gospel truth.

Click to expand...

The rule change was specifically about how balls are prepared texture-wise, because home teams were supplying visiting teams with ####ty unprepared balls. Now visiting teams are allowed to prepare their own balls. Its entirely plausible Brady and most of the NFL didn't know the specifics of Rule 2.

Hard to convince anyone of anything when they perpetuate half-truths and complete misinformation.

Click to expand...

I have noticed a pretty consistent pattern when it comes to trolling this topic ---

1 - spew out a bunch of made up stuff or misinformation

2 - cry about the above

4 - PROFIT!!

Try actually READING my post, not skimming it and deciding "salty hater, I'll disregard."

There are no half truths or made up stuff in my post.

1-"So Brady didn't know what the rule was"-My opening statement, as this was the topic of my post. This is coming from the Wells report, so I don't know how this is made up. I didn't feel it was necessary to specify what rule I was referring to, since this 200+ page thread is discussing the PSI level of NFL game-day footballs; I would think it was clear what rule I was referencing.

2-but he was one of the people mainly responsible for getting the rule changed that allowed home teams to prepare their own balls?-(Underlined added for explanation purposes) Since I'm now discussing a DIFFERENT RULE, it is necessary to explain that, which is what I did.

3-And he's the same guy who admonished the Ravens to "read the rule book?"-Again, there are countless links to this quote (although I believe it was actually "study the rule book"); can't deny/dispute this.

4-While its certainly possible for it to be true that he didn't know the rule, even the most die-hard Pats fan has to understand why not everyone is going to blindly accept this as the gospel truth.-This is my statement, and as such doesn't need to be explained, but that being said, I clearly said Brady might be telling the truth, but when you look at ALL the circumstances surrounding this situation/Brady, it's easy to see why non-Pats homers might question the veracity of this claim.

There are no "half-truths" or "made up stuff" in my post; that fact that you chose to view it as an attack on NE/Brady rather than an explanation of why this claim might not be accepted by all people is more an indication of your bias ("oh no, they're attacking my beloved Pats/Brady!!!") than anything else.

Anarchy99 · May 19, 2015

Per Schefter, Pats two equipment guys were suspended at request of the league.

IvanKaramazov · May 19, 2015

David Dodds said:
The racheting up from the Patriots and Commish's office is entertaining. I see no way this ends well for the Patriots even if the league lessens the penalties. The commish no longer is going to look away and I don't think the Patriots are willing to not try and push every possible edge.

The Patriots organization has escalated things to the point where it's almost impossible for either side to back down at this point. There's no way for Goodell to walk back any of the penalties without looking like a complete buffoon and losing credibility with the other owners, and Kraft can no longer just go along with league without looking like he's betraying his fan base.

bostonfred · May 19, 2015

I think if the team or Brady or the equipment manager comes out and admits guilt, this could end in a hurry. I don't think that will happen though, because I think kraft really and truly believes they did nothing wrong.

GreekFreak · May 19, 2015

David Dodds said:
Anyone read this book about Spygate?

http://www.amazon.com/Spygate-Untold-Story-Bryan-OLeary/dp/0985467002/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1349970716&sr=8-1&keywords=spygate+the+untold+story

Has a lot of positive reviews. Supposedly uncovers TONS of dirt about the Patriots that Goodell's office covered up for the good of the league. But in agreeing to destroying evidence and covering things up, he demanded from Kraft that this nonsense of pushing every edge stops.

That was all fine until the Patriots were caught cheating again. And before Patriots nation scream nothing has been proven, etc...we get back to one simple fact:

The Indianapolis Colts alerted the NFL that this would happen in the game they were about to play. And like clockwork, it happened. The Patriots balls were well below the spec.

You know what La'el Collins did when everyone was accusing him of stuff? He took a lie detector test. What did the Patriots do? They stone-walled the investigation from the beginning (one interview per person only), not turning over records, lying about relationships, etc.

The racheting up from the Patriots and Commish's office is entertaining. I see no way this ends well for the Patriots even if the league lessens the penalties. The commish no longer is going to look away and I don't think the Patriots are willing to not try and push every possible edge.

I can see Goodell fining the Patriots every week for not submitting an accurate injury report.

and heaven forbid if New England is still doing any of these other things found in the Spygate book above. That's hammer time.

Goodell was in New England's pocket for Kraft getting him the job and his big raise. For Goodell to turn on that, I am convinced he has ample proof that new England is not honoring their end of the deal he made with them during Spygate. What would Goodell's motivation be to discredit a star in the league and the team that just won the Super Bowl? Goodell has no motive to do this. He wins by this being pushed under the rug again. Yet Goodell is not letting that happen at all. He is digging in. He will be hearing the appeal, etc.

Today, Goodell is not in New England's pocket and I think it's safe to say he never will be again. Unless Kraft can get the backing of the owners and they can oust Goodell, he is going to find the sledding very rough very soon. The problem with escalation is there can be no winners. And it's all pointing to a grand finale where Goodell and Kraft both self-destruct.

You mean this guy?

http://www.thebiglead.com/index.php/2012/10/21/a-nut-case-has-spent-30000-to-write-a-book-about-how-statistics-prove-the-patriots-are-still-cheating/

Just another bitter hater.

JIslander · May 19, 2015

GreekFreak said:
David Dodds said:

Anyone read this book about Spygate?

http://www.amazon.com/Spygate-Untold-Story-Bryan-OLeary/dp/0985467002/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1349970716&sr=8-1&keywords=spygate+the+untold+story

Has a lot of positive reviews. Supposedly uncovers TONS of dirt about the Patriots that Goodell's office covered up for the good of the league. But in agreeing to destroying evidence and covering things up, he demanded from Kraft that this nonsense of pushing every edge stops.

That was all fine until the Patriots were caught cheating again. And before Patriots nation scream nothing has been proven, etc...we get back to one simple fact:

The Indianapolis Colts alerted the NFL that this would happen in the game they were about to play. And like clockwork, it happened. The Patriots balls were well below the spec.

You know what La'el Collins did when everyone was accusing him of stuff? He took a lie detector test. What did the Patriots do? They stone-walled the investigation from the beginning (one interview per person only), not turning over records, lying about relationships, etc.

The racheting up from the Patriots and Commish's office is entertaining. I see no way this ends well for the Patriots even if the league lessens the penalties. The commish no longer is going to look away and I don't think the Patriots are willing to not try and push every possible edge.

I can see Goodell fining the Patriots every week for not submitting an accurate injury report.

and heaven forbid if New England is still doing any of these other things found in the Spygate book above. That's hammer time.

Goodell was in New England's pocket for Kraft getting him the job and his big raise. For Goodell to turn on that, I am convinced he has ample proof that new England is not honoring their end of the deal he made with them during Spygate. What would Goodell's motivation be to discredit a star in the league and the team that just won the Super Bowl? Goodell has no motive to do this. He wins by this being pushed under the rug again. Yet Goodell is not letting that happen at all. He is digging in. He will be hearing the appeal, etc.

Today, Goodell is not in New England's pocket and I think it's safe to say he never will be again. Unless Kraft can get the backing of the owners and they can oust Goodell, he is going to find the sledding very rough very soon. The problem with escalation is there can be no winners. And it's all pointing to a grand finale where Goodell and Kraft both self-destruct.

Click to expand...

You mean this guy?

http://www.thebiglead.com/index.php/2012/10/21/a-nut-case-has-spent-30000-to-write-a-book-about-how-statistics-prove-the-patriots-are-still-cheating/

Just another bitter hater.

LOL -Pats homers reviews on Amazon are longer than the Spygate book itself...

Steelers4Life · May 19, 2015

So, the Patriots stand on a mountain top to proclaim their innocence after not being 100% compliant during the investigation and plan an assault on the NFL's blatantly biased internal report.

Yet they immediately comply with the NFL's request to terminate (without pay) the two employees who were said to have taken part in the illegal process?

Yeah, right.

This all reeks of a desperate team trying to poke holes in a report to create "reasonable doubt" in the minds of the public and un-taint their legacy, all the while appearing like all they're doing is saying "whether we did anything or not, you don't have enough evidence to punish us." And it's appeared that way to everyone outside of New England ever since Tom's interview with Jim Gray before the Super Bowl.

All the arguing about it is pretty much nonsense.

HobbesAB · May 19, 2015

Anarchy posted it. missed it earlier. deleting post

espnespn · May 19, 2015

davearm said:
General Tso said:

davearm said:

espnespn said:

Actually, if you believe 100% of what the refs said in the Wells Report, then McNally never had a chance to deflate balls in past games, because the balls are brought from the locker room to the field with the officials. Unless you think McNally was deflating balls on the sidelines and somehow never got caught on camera.

"Anderson understood that McNally was moving the balls to the sitting room area of the locker room, so that it would be more convenient for the officials to pick them up on their way out to the field. Anderson said that it is typical for locker room attendants throughout the League to help move the game balls towards the front of the locker room, but that the footballs do not leave the locker room until the officials give express permission for them to be brought to the field at or near the time the officials also walk to the field. Numerous other game officials described a similar practice."

Click to expand...

McNally is the Officials' Locker Room Attendant. He's alone in the locker room with the footballs, post inspection, for roughly 15-20 minutes on gameday, while the officials are on the field for their warmups.

That room is typically empty at that time, but was buzzing with activity during the AFCCG, a) because there were just more league folks in attendance that day, and b) because the NFCCG was airing on the TV, and folks were milling around watching it.

It's pretty obvious (to me anyway) that if all of this is true, then McNally typically does his dirty work in the refs' room while they warm up, but he was forced to improvise during the AFCCG due to all the traffic in the room that day.

Click to expand...

Can you cite your source for that? Seems like a pretty important fact and I don't remember reading it in the report.

Click to expand...

Footnote 34, page 62:

Whether McNally frequently, infrequently or never leaves the Officials Locker Room before the game officials depart for the field is not determinative of whether there has been an opportunity to tamper with game balls during the regular season. The game officials we interviewed — when considering the potential for tampering with the game balls — almost uniformly expressed greater concern that a locker room attendant generally has up to fifteen or twenty minutes alone with the game balls when the game officials are on the field for the pre-game walk-through approximately fifty minutes before kickoff (and after the balls have been inspected). The physical configuration of the Officials Locker Room at Gillette Stadium, with a back dressing area separated by a door from a sitting room area, would provide complete privacy during this time period. Indeed, even the sitting area is generally quiet at that time during the regular season, unlike the busy scene during a playoff game. Milton Britton, the regular season k-ball coordinator for the Patriots, reported that he regularly watches ESPN in the sitting room area while everyone else is on the field and stated that “nine out of ten times” the sitting room is otherwise empty, apart from McNally. On the night of the AFC Championship Game, however, the Officials Locker Room was crowded and McNally is unlikely to have had an opportunity to tamper with the balls in the locker room without being detected.

Click to expand...

This is just one example of conflicting information in the report. On one hand, the refs say the balls leave the locker room at or near the time the refs leave for the field. Then there's a footnote, where the refs say the balls stay inside the locker room, while the refs go on the field. Kinda important to know which is true. :shrug:

Bayhawks · May 19, 2015

espnespn said:
davearm said:

General Tso said:

davearm said:

espnespn said:

Actually, if you believe 100% of what the refs said in the Wells Report, then McNally never had a chance to deflate balls in past games, because the balls are brought from the locker room to the field with the officials. Unless you think McNally was deflating balls on the sidelines and somehow never got caught on camera.

"Anderson understood that McNally was moving the balls to the sitting room area of the locker room, so that it would be more convenient for the officials to pick them up on their way out to the field. Anderson said that it is typical for locker room attendants throughout the League to help move the game balls towards the front of the locker room, but that the footballs do not leave the locker room until the officials give express permission for them to be brought to the field at or near the time the officials also walk to the field. Numerous other game officials described a similar practice."

Click to expand...

McNally is the Officials' Locker Room Attendant. He's alone in the locker room with the footballs, post inspection, for roughly 15-20 minutes on gameday, while the officials are on the field for their warmups.

That room is typically empty at that time, but was buzzing with activity during the AFCCG, a) because there were just more league folks in attendance that day, and b) because the NFCCG was airing on the TV, and folks were milling around watching it.

It's pretty obvious (to me anyway) that if all of this is true, then McNally typically does his dirty work in the refs' room while they warm up, but he was forced to improvise during the AFCCG due to all the traffic in the room that day.

Click to expand...

Can you cite your source for that? Seems like a pretty important fact and I don't remember reading it in the report.

Click to expand...

Footnote 34, page 62:

Whether McNally frequently, infrequently or never leaves the Officials Locker Room before the game officials depart for the field is not determinative of whether there has been an opportunity to tamper with game balls during the regular season. The game officials we interviewed — when considering the potential for tampering with the game balls — almost uniformly expressed greater concern that a locker room attendant generally has up to fifteen or twenty minutes alone with the game balls when the game officials are on the field for the pre-game walk-through approximately fifty minutes before kickoff (and after the balls have been inspected). The physical configuration of the Officials Locker Room at Gillette Stadium, with a back dressing area separated by a door from a sitting room area, would provide complete privacy during this time period. Indeed, even the sitting area is generally quiet at that time during the regular season, unlike the busy scene during a playoff game. Milton Britton, the regular season k-ball coordinator for the Patriots, reported that he regularly watches ESPN in the sitting room area while everyone else is on the field and stated that “nine out of ten times” the sitting room is otherwise empty, apart from McNally. On the night of the AFC Championship Game, however, the Officials Locker Room was crowded and McNally is unlikely to have had an opportunity to tamper with the balls in the locker room without being detected.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

This is just one example of conflicting information in the report. On one hand, the refs say the balls leave the locker room at or near the time the refs leave for the field. Then there's a footnote, where the refs say the balls stay inside the locker room, while the refs go on the field. Kinda important to know which is true.

I'm not sure it's exactly conflicting. The way I am reading it (which could be wrong), the officials inspect the footballs, then leave them in their locker room, while they go onto the field for their warm-up/pre-game walk through. Then they return to their locker room, do whatever they do, collect the balls, and go to the field. So, there's no conflict: the balls are in the locker room, while the officials are on the field "getting ready," then the officials return to the locker room, and bring the balls out to the field right before the game.

davearm · May 19, 2015

espnespn said:
davearm said:

General Tso said:

davearm said:

espnespn said:

Actually, if you believe 100% of what the refs said in the Wells Report, then McNally never had a chance to deflate balls in past games, because the balls are brought from the locker room to the field with the officials. Unless you think McNally was deflating balls on the sidelines and somehow never got caught on camera.

"Anderson understood that McNally was moving the balls to the sitting room area of the locker room, so that it would be more convenient for the officials to pick them up on their way out to the field. Anderson said that it is typical for locker room attendants throughout the League to help move the game balls towards the front of the locker room, but that the footballs do not leave the locker room until the officials give express permission for them to be brought to the field at or near the time the officials also walk to the field. Numerous other game officials described a similar practice."

Click to expand...

McNally is the Officials' Locker Room Attendant. He's alone in the locker room with the footballs, post inspection, for roughly 15-20 minutes on gameday, while the officials are on the field for their warmups.

That room is typically empty at that time, but was buzzing with activity during the AFCCG, a) because there were just more league folks in attendance that day, and b) because the NFCCG was airing on the TV, and folks were milling around watching it.

It's pretty obvious (to me anyway) that if all of this is true, then McNally typically does his dirty work in the refs' room while they warm up, but he was forced to improvise during the AFCCG due to all the traffic in the room that day.

Click to expand...

Can you cite your source for that? Seems like a pretty important fact and I don't remember reading it in the report.

Click to expand...

Footnote 34, page 62:

Whether McNally frequently, infrequently or never leaves the Officials Locker Room before the game officials depart for the field is not determinative of whether there has been an opportunity to tamper with game balls during the regular season. The game officials we interviewed — when considering the potential for tampering with the game balls — almost uniformly expressed greater concern that a locker room attendant generally has up to fifteen or twenty minutes alone with the game balls when the game officials are on the field for the pre-game walk-through approximately fifty minutes before kickoff (and after the balls have been inspected). The physical configuration of the Officials Locker Room at Gillette Stadium, with a back dressing area separated by a door from a sitting room area, would provide complete privacy during this time period. Indeed, even the sitting area is generally quiet at that time during the regular season, unlike the busy scene during a playoff game. Milton Britton, the regular season k-ball coordinator for the Patriots, reported that he regularly watches ESPN in the sitting room area while everyone else is on the field and stated that “nine out of ten times” the sitting room is otherwise empty, apart from McNally. On the night of the AFC Championship Game, however, the Officials Locker Room was crowded and McNally is unlikely to have had an opportunity to tamper with the balls in the locker room without being detected.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

This is just one example of conflicting information in the report. On one hand, the refs say the balls leave the locker room at or near the time the refs leave for the field. Then there's a footnote, where the refs say the balls stay inside the locker room, while the refs go on the field. Kinda important to know which is true.

1) Officials receive game balls from team personnel

2) Officials inspect and certify game balls

3) Officials leave balls in locker room during warmups

4) Officials return to locker room after warmups

5) Officials take balls out to field at game time

Under normal conditions, McNally would have unsupervised access to the balls @ stage 3.

On the day of the AFCCG, he did not (other folks were in the room that day), so he broke protocol @ stage 5, and took the balls out himself, unaccompanied by officials.

Old Smiley · May 19, 2015

Anarchy99 said:
Per Schefter, Pats two equipment guys were suspended at request of the league.

!

Edit: Some more on that.

A link.

And a quote:

“Everybody says well if they did nothing wrong, then why are the Patriots suspending them and here is the deal behind that: Essentially, the NFL called the Patriots prior to the discipline being handed down and basically explained to the Patriots that in the best interest of the league the smart thing to do would be to suspend those two employees. New England went along with it,” Schefter said. “New England thought it was acting at that time, prior to the discipline, in the best interest of the league and so they went along with the league’s request to suspend both of those individuals. That essentially came from the NFL, not the Patriots. That is how it came down. That is how those two got suspended and that is the answer to the questions that people have asked as to why McNally and Jastremski have been suspended if they’ve done nothing wrong.”

Synthesizer · May 19, 2015

It's pretty clear that the refs have never taken it seriously to check ball pressure. Heck, they even over-inflated a ball without giving it a second thought (or knowing the rulebook themselves). Then when the NFL tried to catch the Pats doing something shady with the balls, the refs didn't even take it seriously at that time either. Used multiple air pressure gauges, didn't record specific values, didn't measure the balls after they disappeared into a bathroom, etc. Totally botched effort from the NFL made worse by a botched investigation and penalty.

BroadwayG · May 19, 2015

The 16.0 psi text was obviously a joke. Just like all the texts except for the ones that could possibly be interpreted as incriminating. Those are all dead serious.

moleculo · May 19, 2015

Run It Up said:
moleculo said:

Run It Up said:

What was lacking about MacKinnon's take?

Click to expand...

There is no experiment there, only a critique of Exponents report.Beyond that, MacKinnon botched a lot of the exponent report. He ignored entire sections, specifically gauge accuracy and repeatability. He does raise some interesting points, but not anything unexplainable via the Wells/exponent theory. If I get a chance tomorrow, I will break it all down.

Click to expand...

Well, Id also love to hear your insight on Fustin's write up.

Not many people have linked it, I've only seen it a few places - it was a pain in the ### trying to dig it back up.

sorry it took a little bit to get back to you on this - I had a flooding basement to deal with last night.

Here goes:

Fustin, like most criticisms of the Wells/Exponent report, relies on Anderson using the logo gauge pre-game (as he recollected). I'll discuss that in a moment.

What Fustin did is take the measured half-time pressure, assume a measurement temperature, calculate what the initial pressure must have been, and then add 0.38psi assuming the ref used the logo gauge. He makes some assumptions that skew the data in the direction he wants:

starting temp = 48 dF. We know that was the temp outside, and we know the balls were tested inside. We know it took at least a couple of minutes from the time the balls were first brought inside for testing to start.
assume 1 degree/football. This is a pretty broad estimate, not really sure how he can support this. Fustin admits that its inexact, but "pretty darn good"...well, it's pretty darn good because it gives him answers he likes (note the irony - he attacks a report because they make assumptions that seem to fit a narrative, but Fustin does the exact same thing).
Fustin makes the claim that the Patriots balls had an average starting pressure of 12.56, therefore all is good, right? of course, he fails to discuss the fact that 4 of 11 balls had a theoretical pre-game pressure of less than 12.4 psi, and three balls had a theoretical pressure higher than 13.0... no discussion on this.
He does discuss variability, but it's basically, "of course there is variation, the pressure is increasing as the balls are being measured" and has a nice plot to show this in his footnotes, but it's very misleading. The measurements as recorded do not demonstrate the warming trend that Fustin is claiming or showing in the graph. further, the variation caused by rising temp in no way could account for the variability seen in his data.

So - on the pre-game gauge business. I mentioned this before, it's probably worth re-hashing. It certainly is possible that Anderson used the logo gauge. However, remember that the Logo gauge consistently measures high, by about 0.4 psi. Assuming this was the pre-game gauge carries with it a couple of other assumptions:

pick one of the following:

the Colts and Patriots both lied WRT their pre-game ball preparation process; they both submit balls almost exactly 0.4 psi lower than they claimed.
both the Pats and Colts pressure gauges were almost exactly off by -0.4 psi.

AND

All 11 Patriots balls were checked twice within two minutes of coming indoors at halftime, despite reports it took 4 minutes to get to the lockerroom (based on experimental data performed by Exponent).

So anyways, like I said earlier...all of this does create reasonable doubt. You cannot prove the Patriots did this in a criminal court. You also cannot prove that the half-time pressures were a result of natural forces.

espnespn · May 19, 2015

davearm said:
espnespn said:

davearm said:

General Tso said:

davearm said:

espnespn said:

Actually, if you believe 100% of what the refs said in the Wells Report, then McNally never had a chance to deflate balls in past games, because the balls are brought from the locker room to the field with the officials. Unless you think McNally was deflating balls on the sidelines and somehow never got caught on camera.

"Anderson understood that McNally was moving the balls to the sitting room area of the locker room, so that it would be more convenient for the officials to pick them up on their way out to the field. Anderson said that it is typical for locker room attendants throughout the League to help move the game balls towards the front of the locker room, but that the footballs do not leave the locker room until the officials give express permission for them to be brought to the field at or near the time the officials also walk to the field. Numerous other game officials described a similar practice."

Click to expand...

McNally is the Officials' Locker Room Attendant. He's alone in the locker room with the footballs, post inspection, for roughly 15-20 minutes on gameday, while the officials are on the field for their warmups.

That room is typically empty at that time, but was buzzing with activity during the AFCCG, a) because there were just more league folks in attendance that day, and b) because the NFCCG was airing on the TV, and folks were milling around watching it.

It's pretty obvious (to me anyway) that if all of this is true, then McNally typically does his dirty work in the refs' room while they warm up, but he was forced to improvise during the AFCCG due to all the traffic in the room that day.

Click to expand...

Can you cite your source for that? Seems like a pretty important fact and I don't remember reading it in the report.

Click to expand...

Footnote 34, page 62:

Whether McNally frequently, infrequently or never leaves the Officials Locker Room before the game officials depart for the field is not determinative of whether there has been an opportunity to tamper with game balls during the regular season. The game officials we interviewed — when considering the potential for tampering with the game balls — almost uniformly expressed greater concern that a locker room attendant generally has up to fifteen or twenty minutes alone with the game balls when the game officials are on the field for the pre-game walk-through approximately fifty minutes before kickoff (and after the balls have been inspected). The physical configuration of the Officials Locker Room at Gillette Stadium, with a back dressing area separated by a door from a sitting room area, would provide complete privacy during this time period. Indeed, even the sitting area is generally quiet at that time during the regular season, unlike the busy scene during a playoff game. Milton Britton, the regular season k-ball coordinator for the Patriots, reported that he regularly watches ESPN in the sitting room area while everyone else is on the field and stated that “nine out of ten times” the sitting room is otherwise empty, apart from McNally. On the night of the AFC Championship Game, however, the Officials Locker Room was crowded and McNally is unlikely to have had an opportunity to tamper with the balls in the locker room without being detected.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

This is just one example of conflicting information in the report. On one hand, the refs say the balls leave the locker room at or near the time the refs leave for the field. Then there's a footnote, where the refs say the balls stay inside the locker room, while the refs go on the field. Kinda important to know which is true.

Click to expand...

1) Officials receive game balls from team personnel

2) Officials inspect and certify game balls

3) Officials leave balls in locker room during warmups

4) Officials return to locker room after warmups

5) Officials take balls out to field at game time

Under normal conditions, McNally would have unsupervised access to the balls @ stage 3.

On the day of the AFCCG, he did not (other folks were in the room that day), so he broke protocol @ stage 5, and took the balls out himself, unaccompanied by officials.

So the refs leave for the field 2x (1x for warmups and 1x for game time)? Did this happen for the AFCCG?

If so, the refs were out on the field for warmups during the AGCCG, leaving McNally in the locker room with reporters and other non-refs. McNally could have strolled to the bathroom with the bag of balls while the refs were on the field -- why would he worry about reporters and whoever left in the locker room? All the non-refs in the locker room had no clue about ball protocol and would not have noticed.

Instead, McNally waits for the refs to come back to the locker room, then decides to go to the bathroom to deflate in 100 seconds, while the refs are in the locker room?

Bayhawks · May 19, 2015

espnespn said:
davearm said:

espnespn said:

davearm said:

General Tso said:

davearm said:

espnespn said:

Actually, if you believe 100% of what the refs said in the Wells Report, then McNally never had a chance to deflate balls in past games, because the balls are brought from the locker room to the field with the officials. Unless you think McNally was deflating balls on the sidelines and somehow never got caught on camera.

"Anderson understood that McNally was moving the balls to the sitting room area of the locker room, so that it would be more convenient for the officials to pick them up on their way out to the field. Anderson said that it is typical for locker room attendants throughout the League to help move the game balls towards the front of the locker room, but that the footballs do not leave the locker room until the officials give express permission for them to be brought to the field at or near the time the officials also walk to the field. Numerous other game officials described a similar practice."

Click to expand...

McNally is the Officials' Locker Room Attendant. He's alone in the locker room with the footballs, post inspection, for roughly 15-20 minutes on gameday, while the officials are on the field for their warmups.

That room is typically empty at that time, but was buzzing with activity during the AFCCG, a) because there were just more league folks in attendance that day, and b) because the NFCCG was airing on the TV, and folks were milling around watching it.

It's pretty obvious (to me anyway) that if all of this is true, then McNally typically does his dirty work in the refs' room while they warm up, but he was forced to improvise during the AFCCG due to all the traffic in the room that day.

Click to expand...

Can you cite your source for that? Seems like a pretty important fact and I don't remember reading it in the report.

Click to expand...

Footnote 34, page 62:

Whether McNally frequently, infrequently or never leaves the Officials Locker Room before the game officials depart for the field is not determinative of whether there has been an opportunity to tamper with game balls during the regular season. The game officials we interviewed — when considering the potential for tampering with the game balls — almost uniformly expressed greater concern that a locker room attendant generally has up to fifteen or twenty minutes alone with the game balls when the game officials are on the field for the pre-game walk-through approximately fifty minutes before kickoff (and after the balls have been inspected). The physical configuration of the Officials Locker Room at Gillette Stadium, with a back dressing area separated by a door from a sitting room area, would provide complete privacy during this time period. Indeed, even the sitting area is generally quiet at that time during the regular season, unlike the busy scene during a playoff game. Milton Britton, the regular season k-ball coordinator for the Patriots, reported that he regularly watches ESPN in the sitting room area while everyone else is on the field and stated that “nine out of ten times” the sitting room is otherwise empty, apart from McNally. On the night of the AFC Championship Game, however, the Officials Locker Room was crowded and McNally is unlikely to have had an opportunity to tamper with the balls in the locker room without being detected.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

This is just one example of conflicting information in the report. On one hand, the refs say the balls leave the locker room at or near the time the refs leave for the field. Then there's a footnote, where the refs say the balls stay inside the locker room, while the refs go on the field. Kinda important to know which is true.

Click to expand...

1) Officials receive game balls from team personnel

2) Officials inspect and certify game balls

3) Officials leave balls in locker room during warmups

4) Officials return to locker room after warmups

5) Officials take balls out to field at game time

Under normal conditions, McNally would have unsupervised access to the balls @ stage 3.

On the day of the AFCCG, he did not (other folks were in the room that day), so he broke protocol @ stage 5, and took the balls out himself, unaccompanied by officials.

Click to expand...

So the refs leave for the field 2x (1x for warmups and 1x for game time)? Did this happen for the AFCCG?

If so, the refs were out on the field for warmups during the AGCCG, leaving McNally in the locker room with reporters and other non-refs. McNally could have strolled to the bathroom with the bag of balls while the refs were on the field -- why would he worry about reporters and whoever left in the locker room? All the non-refs in the locker room had no clue about ball protocol and would not have noticed.

Instead, McNally waits for the refs to come back to the locker room, then decides to go to the bathroom to deflate in 100 seconds, while the refs are in the locker room?

I'm pretty sure it has been reported that there were people (maybe some referees) in the locker room watching the NFCC, when the locker room would normally have been empty. Therefore, if it was his practice to "adjust" the balls after the refs went out for their warmup, he would not have had that opportunity prior to the AFCC.

Kool-Aid Larry · May 19, 2015

Anarchy99 said:
Per Schefter, Pats two equipment guys were suspended at request of the league.

Stephanie Stradley ‏@StephStradley Stephanie Stradley retweeted Adam Schefter

But hey, getting real facts precludes irresponsible speculation about real peoples' reputations to make your point:

Stephanie Stradley added,

Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter For those asking why Patriots suspended two employees ..........

Carter_Can_Fly · May 19, 2015

Steelers4Life said:
So, the Patriots stand on a mountain top to proclaim their innocence after not being 100% compliant during the investigation and plan an assault on the NFL's blatantly biased internal report.

Yet they immediately comply with the NFL's request to terminate (without pay) the two employees who were said to have taken part in the illegal process?

Yeah, right.

This all reeks of a desperate team trying to poke holes in a report to create "reasonable doubt" in the minds of the public and un-taint their legacy, all the while appearing like all they're doing is saying "whether we did anything or not, you don't have enough evidence to punish us." And it's appeared that way to everyone outside of New England ever since Tom's interview with Jim Gray before the Super Bowl.

All the arguing about it is pretty much nonsense.

This sounds like exactly what is happening or by complying with the suspension of the two employees they can make them the fall guys.

espnespn · May 19, 2015

Bayhawks said:
espnespn said:

davearm said:

espnespn said:

davearm said:

General Tso said:

davearm said:

espnespn said:

Actually, if you believe 100% of what the refs said in the Wells Report, then McNally never had a chance to deflate balls in past games, because the balls are brought from the locker room to the field with the officials. Unless you think McNally was deflating balls on the sidelines and somehow never got caught on camera.

"Anderson understood that McNally was moving the balls to the sitting room area of the locker room, so that it would be more convenient for the officials to pick them up on their way out to the field. Anderson said that it is typical for locker room attendants throughout the League to help move the game balls towards the front of the locker room, but that the footballs do not leave the locker room until the officials give express permission for them to be brought to the field at or near the time the officials also walk to the field. Numerous other game officials described a similar practice."

Click to expand...

McNally is the Officials' Locker Room Attendant. He's alone in the locker room with the footballs, post inspection, for roughly 15-20 minutes on gameday, while the officials are on the field for their warmups.

That room is typically empty at that time, but was buzzing with activity during the AFCCG, a) because there were just more league folks in attendance that day, and b) because the NFCCG was airing on the TV, and folks were milling around watching it.

It's pretty obvious (to me anyway) that if all of this is true, then McNally typically does his dirty work in the refs' room while they warm up, but he was forced to improvise during the AFCCG due to all the traffic in the room that day.

Click to expand...

Can you cite your source for that? Seems like a pretty important fact and I don't remember reading it in the report.

Click to expand...

Footnote 34, page 62:

Whether McNally frequently, infrequently or never leaves the Officials Locker Room before the game officials depart for the field is not determinative of whether there has been an opportunity to tamper with game balls during the regular season. The game officials we interviewed — when considering the potential for tampering with the game balls — almost uniformly expressed greater concern that a locker room attendant generally has up to fifteen or twenty minutes alone with the game balls when the game officials are on the field for the pre-game walk-through approximately fifty minutes before kickoff (and after the balls have been inspected). The physical configuration of the Officials Locker Room at Gillette Stadium, with a back dressing area separated by a door from a sitting room area, would provide complete privacy during this time period. Indeed, even the sitting area is generally quiet at that time during the regular season, unlike the busy scene during a playoff game. Milton Britton, the regular season k-ball coordinator for the Patriots, reported that he regularly watches ESPN in the sitting room area while everyone else is on the field and stated that “nine out of ten times” the sitting room is otherwise empty, apart from McNally. On the night of the AFC Championship Game, however, the Officials Locker Room was crowded and McNally is unlikely to have had an opportunity to tamper with the balls in the locker room without being detected.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

This is just one example of conflicting information in the report. On one hand, the refs say the balls leave the locker room at or near the time the refs leave for the field. Then there's a footnote, where the refs say the balls stay inside the locker room, while the refs go on the field. Kinda important to know which is true.

Click to expand...

1) Officials receive game balls from team personnel

2) Officials inspect and certify game balls

3) Officials leave balls in locker room during warmups

4) Officials return to locker room after warmups

5) Officials take balls out to field at game time

Under normal conditions, McNally would have unsupervised access to the balls @ stage 3.

On the day of the AFCCG, he did not (other folks were in the room that day), so he broke protocol @ stage 5, and took the balls out himself, unaccompanied by officials.

Click to expand...

So the refs leave for the field 2x (1x for warmups and 1x for game time)? Did this happen for the AFCCG?

If so, the refs were out on the field for warmups during the AGCCG, leaving McNally in the locker room with reporters and other non-refs. McNally could have strolled to the bathroom with the bag of balls while the refs were on the field -- why would he worry about reporters and whoever left in the locker room? All the non-refs in the locker room had no clue about ball protocol and would not have noticed.

Instead, McNally waits for the refs to come back to the locker room, then decides to go to the bathroom to deflate in 100 seconds, while the refs are in the locker room?

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure it has been reported that there were people (maybe some referees) in the locker room watching the NFCC, when the locker room would normally have been empty. Therefore, if it was his practice to "adjust" the balls after the refs went out for their warmup, he would not have had that opportunity prior to the AFCC.

So the officials who were watching the NFCC ignored their normal duties, and didn't go to the field for the warm-ups like the normally do? Btw, even assuming that some refs were watching the game, and some were on the field, why would McNally wait for them all to come back before going to deflate? That makes no sense: it would be way less risk to deflate before the rest of the refs came back.

"On the day of the AFC Championship Game, the Officials Locker Room was

more crowded than usual. A number of extra NFL personnel, including security and operations
personnel, were present in addition to the three alternate game officials. A number of witnesses
also explained that the layout of the Officials Locker Room at Gillette Stadium—with a large
sitting room separated from the officials‟ more private dressing room—as well as the
refreshments available there, encourage people with credentials to congregate in the locker room
prior to a game. One official said that it “felt like Grand Central Station” in the sitting room
because once the pre-game meetings and the team warm-ups were complete, NFL personnel,
game officials and others gathered there to watch the conclusion of the NFC Championship
Game on television."

Kool-Aid Larry · May 19, 2015

Rich Hill ‏@PP_Rich_Hill "Independent" Ted Wells Received over $45 Million from NFL For Two Investigations

http://www.patspulpit.com/2015/5/19/8624609/deflategate-independent-ted-wells-received-over-45-million-from-nfl

ps

harvard business school weighs in

davearm · May 19, 2015

espnespn said:
davearm said:

espnespn said:

davearm said:

General Tso said:

davearm said:

espnespn said:

Actually, if you believe 100% of what the refs said in the Wells Report, then McNally never had a chance to deflate balls in past games, because the balls are brought from the locker room to the field with the officials. Unless you think McNally was deflating balls on the sidelines and somehow never got caught on camera.

"Anderson understood that McNally was moving the balls to the sitting room area of the locker room, so that it would be more convenient for the officials to pick them up on their way out to the field. Anderson said that it is typical for locker room attendants throughout the League to help move the game balls towards the front of the locker room, but that the footballs do not leave the locker room until the officials give express permission for them to be brought to the field at or near the time the officials also walk to the field. Numerous other game officials described a similar practice."

Click to expand...

McNally is the Officials' Locker Room Attendant. He's alone in the locker room with the footballs, post inspection, for roughly 15-20 minutes on gameday, while the officials are on the field for their warmups.

That room is typically empty at that time, but was buzzing with activity during the AFCCG, a) because there were just more league folks in attendance that day, and b) because the NFCCG was airing on the TV, and folks were milling around watching it.

It's pretty obvious (to me anyway) that if all of this is true, then McNally typically does his dirty work in the refs' room while they warm up, but he was forced to improvise during the AFCCG due to all the traffic in the room that day.

Click to expand...

Can you cite your source for that? Seems like a pretty important fact and I don't remember reading it in the report.

Click to expand...

Footnote 34, page 62:

Whether McNally frequently, infrequently or never leaves the Officials Locker Room before the game officials depart for the field is not determinative of whether there has been an opportunity to tamper with game balls during the regular season. The game officials we interviewed — when considering the potential for tampering with the game balls — almost uniformly expressed greater concern that a locker room attendant generally has up to fifteen or twenty minutes alone with the game balls when the game officials are on the field for the pre-game walk-through approximately fifty minutes before kickoff (and after the balls have been inspected). The physical configuration of the Officials Locker Room at Gillette Stadium, with a back dressing area separated by a door from a sitting room area, would provide complete privacy during this time period. Indeed, even the sitting area is generally quiet at that time during the regular season, unlike the busy scene during a playoff game. Milton Britton, the regular season k-ball coordinator for the Patriots, reported that he regularly watches ESPN in the sitting room area while everyone else is on the field and stated that “nine out of ten times” the sitting room is otherwise empty, apart from McNally. On the night of the AFC Championship Game, however, the Officials Locker Room was crowded and McNally is unlikely to have had an opportunity to tamper with the balls in the locker room without being detected.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

This is just one example of conflicting information in the report. On one hand, the refs say the balls leave the locker room at or near the time the refs leave for the field. Then there's a footnote, where the refs say the balls stay inside the locker room, while the refs go on the field. Kinda important to know which is true.

Click to expand...

1) Officials receive game balls from team personnel

2) Officials inspect and certify game balls

3) Officials leave balls in locker room during warmups

4) Officials return to locker room after warmups

5) Officials take balls out to field at game time

Under normal conditions, McNally would have unsupervised access to the balls @ stage 3.

On the day of the AFCCG, he did not (other folks were in the room that day), so he broke protocol @ stage 5, and took the balls out himself, unaccompanied by officials.

Click to expand...

So the refs leave for the field 2x (1x for warmups and 1x for game time)? Did this happen for the AFCCG?

If so, the refs were out on the field for warmups during the AGCCG, leaving McNally in the locker room with reporters and other non-refs. McNally could have strolled to the bathroom with the bag of balls while the refs were on the field -- why would he worry about reporters and whoever left in the locker room? All the non-refs in the locker room had no clue about ball protocol and would not have noticed.

Instead, McNally waits for the refs to come back to the locker room, then decides to go to the bathroom to deflate in 100 seconds, while the refs are in the locker room?

Yes and yes to your first two questions.

You seem to be suggesting that McNally could have walked with the balls from the OLR to the tunnel bathroom, done his deflating, and then returned with the balls from the tunnel bathroom to the OLR, all while the game officials were on the field for warmups.

If there was surveillance video of this activity, then this tampering case would be a total slam dunk. There would be no reasonable doubt about what was happening in that circumstance.

Perhaps even McNally is smart enough not to follow the most blatantly nefarious course of action.

davearm · May 19, 2015

espnespn said:
Bayhawks said:

espnespn said:

davearm said:

espnespn said:

davearm said:

General Tso said:

davearm said:

espnespn said:

Actually, if you believe 100% of what the refs said in the Wells Report, then McNally never had a chance to deflate balls in past games, because the balls are brought from the locker room to the field with the officials. Unless you think McNally was deflating balls on the sidelines and somehow never got caught on camera.

"Anderson understood that McNally was moving the balls to the sitting room area of the locker room, so that it would be more convenient for the officials to pick them up on their way out to the field. Anderson said that it is typical for locker room attendants throughout the League to help move the game balls towards the front of the locker room, but that the footballs do not leave the locker room until the officials give express permission for them to be brought to the field at or near the time the officials also walk to the field. Numerous other game officials described a similar practice."

Click to expand...

McNally is the Officials' Locker Room Attendant. He's alone in the locker room with the footballs, post inspection, for roughly 15-20 minutes on gameday, while the officials are on the field for their warmups.

That room is typically empty at that time, but was buzzing with activity during the AFCCG, a) because there were just more league folks in attendance that day, and b) because the NFCCG was airing on the TV, and folks were milling around watching it.

It's pretty obvious (to me anyway) that if all of this is true, then McNally typically does his dirty work in the refs' room while they warm up, but he was forced to improvise during the AFCCG due to all the traffic in the room that day.

Click to expand...

Can you cite your source for that? Seems like a pretty important fact and I don't remember reading it in the report.

Click to expand...

Footnote 34, page 62:

Whether McNally frequently, infrequently or never leaves the Officials Locker Room before the game officials depart for the field is not determinative of whether there has been an opportunity to tamper with game balls during the regular season. The game officials we interviewed — when considering the potential for tampering with the game balls — almost uniformly expressed greater concern that a locker room attendant generally has up to fifteen or twenty minutes alone with the game balls when the game officials are on the field for the pre-game walk-through approximately fifty minutes before kickoff (and after the balls have been inspected). The physical configuration of the Officials Locker Room at Gillette Stadium, with a back dressing area separated by a door from a sitting room area, would provide complete privacy during this time period. Indeed, even the sitting area is generally quiet at that time during the regular season, unlike the busy scene during a playoff game. Milton Britton, the regular season k-ball coordinator for the Patriots, reported that he regularly watches ESPN in the sitting room area while everyone else is on the field and stated that “nine out of ten times” the sitting room is otherwise empty, apart from McNally. On the night of the AFC Championship Game, however, the Officials Locker Room was crowded and McNally is unlikely to have had an opportunity to tamper with the balls in the locker room without being detected.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

This is just one example of conflicting information in the report. On one hand, the refs say the balls leave the locker room at or near the time the refs leave for the field. Then there's a footnote, where the refs say the balls stay inside the locker room, while the refs go on the field. Kinda important to know which is true.

Click to expand...

1) Officials receive game balls from team personnel

2) Officials inspect and certify game balls

3) Officials leave balls in locker room during warmups

4) Officials return to locker room after warmups

5) Officials take balls out to field at game time

Under normal conditions, McNally would have unsupervised access to the balls @ stage 3.

On the day of the AFCCG, he did not (other folks were in the room that day), so he broke protocol @ stage 5, and took the balls out himself, unaccompanied by officials.

Click to expand...

So the refs leave for the field 2x (1x for warmups and 1x for game time)? Did this happen for the AFCCG?

If so, the refs were out on the field for warmups during the AGCCG, leaving McNally in the locker room with reporters and other non-refs. McNally could have strolled to the bathroom with the bag of balls while the refs were on the field -- why would he worry about reporters and whoever left in the locker room? All the non-refs in the locker room had no clue about ball protocol and would not have noticed.

Instead, McNally waits for the refs to come back to the locker room, then decides to go to the bathroom to deflate in 100 seconds, while the refs are in the locker room?

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure it has been reported that there were people (maybe some referees) in the locker room watching the NFCC, when the locker room would normally have been empty. Therefore, if it was his practice to "adjust" the balls after the refs went out for their warmup, he would not have had that opportunity prior to the AFCC.

Click to expand...

So the officials who were watching the NFCC ignored their normal duties, and didn't go to the field for the warm-ups like the normally do? Btw, even assuming that some refs were watching the game, and some were on the field, why would McNally wait for them all to come back before going to deflate? That makes no sense: it would be way less risk to deflate before the rest of the refs came back.

"On the day of the AFC Championship Game, the Officials Locker Room was

more crowded than usual. A number of extra NFL personnel, including security and operations
personnel, were present in addition to the three alternate game officials. A number of witnesses
also explained that the layout of the Officials Locker Room at Gillette Stadium—with a large
sitting room separated from the officials‟ more private dressing room—as well as the
refreshments available there, encourage people with credentials to congregate in the locker room
prior to a game. One official said that it “felt like Grand Central Station” in the sitting room
because once the pre-game meetings and the team warm-ups were complete, NFL personnel,
game officials and others gathered there to watch the conclusion of the NFC Championship
Game on television."

Why are you struggling with this so much? Nobody ignored their duties. The 7 officials working the game that day took the field during warmups, jusl like the normally do.

While those 7 game officials were on the field for warmups, "a number of extra NFL personnel, including security and operations personnel, ... in addition to the three alternate game officials" were still in the officials' locker room.

It's abundantly clear that McNally lacked the opportunity to tamper with the balls during the warmup period: he didn't have his usual anonymity inside the OLR, and he couldn't sneak the balls away from the OLR unnoticed.

Dinsy Ejotuz · May 19, 2015

Agent and lawyer talk is cheap. We'll find out who really believes what when the lawsuits are/aren't filed.

Carter_Can_Fly · May 19, 2015

wdcrob said:
Agent and lawyer talk is cheap. We'll find out who really believes what when the lawsuits are/aren't filed.

This is exactly it. This seems like posturing by Kraft. I am going to guess Kraft has some dirt on Goodell and Goodell has plenty of dirt on Kraft. The fact that Goodell has went to such a hefty punishment leads me to believe his dirt is much better than Krafts.

Kool-Aid Larry · May 19, 2015

David Dodds said:
Anyone read this book about Spygate?

http://www.amazon.com/Spygate-Untold-Story-Bryan-OLeary/dp/0985467002/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1349970716&sr=8-1&keywords=spygate+the+untold+story

Has a lot of positive reviews.

never heard of it --- but, like everything else on the net, I'm sure the comments are the best part

Hack Accusation Ignores Goodell's Ignorance Of The NFL Rulebook

ByMichael Daly "Monkeesfan"on May 18, 2015
Format: Hardcover
Bryan O'Leary rehashes the allegation made against the New England Patriots over sideline videotaping - "Spygate" - and strives to prove a pattern of cheating and of some kind of league coverup based on the "follow the money" myth of life. Following the money is the handiest of excuses made by people who can't otherwise win an argument. And O'Leary's is woeful.

Finally, documented evidence of the New England Patriots system of cheating revealed! I've watched and studied the NFL for 60 years and what the Patriots have achieved is virtually statistically impossible.

I could not finish this book. Too much conjecture and fantasy.

The book is simply the rantings of a conspiracy theorist. The author uses rumors and very flawed "statistics" and presents them as fact.

Great book. It puts together all the pieces and shows that spygate goes deeper than what many think. Why did goodell destroy the tapes? Why do patriots hire coaches with no experience or leave coordinator positions open? Why did no one follow up on patriots possibly using other radio frequencies during games? Why do patriots perform suspiciously well in home games? Why do the patriots cover Vegas spreads 62% of the time while the next team that does well is not even close?

Who is Ernie Adams and why does no one know about him?

Here’s what Mortensen wrote: “The league also was reviewing a possible violation into the number of radio frequencies the Patriots were using during Sunday's game, sources said.” O’Leary rewrote this in the first chapter as “the Patriots were also found to be in violation of exceeding the number of radio frequencies they were allowed to use during a game.” Later, he wrote it this way: “Chris Mortensen of ESPN reported that the NFL had caught the Patriots using an alternate radio frequency in violation of NFL rules.”

Why did you rewrite the Mortensen report Bryan? Can you explain yourself?

Makes me hate the pats even more sneaky bastards

As a die-hard Steelers fan, without a doubt I know Spygate helped the Pats beat Pittsburgh in at least two AFC Championship games.

There is no doubt that the Belichick era success in an outlier -- both is magnitude and longevity. You can't say that he has drafted well, retained players (other than the indispensable QB Brady), paid well or invented a hallmark football strategy.

well, I thought I was going to cherrypick a few, but ran out of quotes after scrolling through the first 20.

whatever. it is what it is

Dr. Octopus · May 19, 2015

moleculo said:
sorry it took a little bit to get back to you on this - I had a flooding basement to deal with last night.

Anyone know where Jastremski and McNally were last night?

moleculo · May 19, 2015

Dr. Octopus said:
moleculo said:

sorry it took a little bit to get back to you on this - I had a flooding basement to deal with last night.

Click to expand...

Anyone know where Jastremski and McNally were last night?

lol. I'm in the middle of remodeling my kitchen. The guy removing the cabinets wasn't bright enough to turn off the house water supply before disconnecting the sink. :wall:

Kool-Aid Larry · May 19, 2015

GreekFreak said:
David Dodds said:

Anyone read this book about Spygate?

http://www.amazon.com/Spygate-Untold-Story-Bryan-OLeary/dp/0985467002/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1349970716&sr=8-1&keywords=spygate+the+untold+story

Has a lot of positive reviews. Supposedly uncovers TONS of dirt about the Patriots that Goodell's office covered up for the good of the league. But in agreeing to destroying evidence and covering things up, he demanded from Kraft that this nonsense of pushing every edge stops.

That was all fine until the Patriots were caught cheating again. And before Patriots nation scream nothing has been proven, etc...we get back to one simple fact:

The Indianapolis Colts alerted the NFL that this would happen in the game they were about to play. And like clockwork, it happened. The Patriots balls were well below the spec.

You know what La'el Collins did when everyone was accusing him of stuff? He took a lie detector test. What did the Patriots do? They stone-walled the investigation from the beginning (one interview per person only), not turning over records, lying about relationships, etc.

The racheting up from the Patriots and Commish's office is entertaining. I see no way this ends well for the Patriots even if the league lessens the penalties. The commish no longer is going to look away and I don't think the Patriots are willing to not try and push every possible edge.

I can see Goodell fining the Patriots every week for not submitting an accurate injury report.

and heaven forbid if New England is still doing any of these other things found in the Spygate book above. That's hammer time.

Goodell was in New England's pocket for Kraft getting him the job and his big raise. For Goodell to turn on that, I am convinced he has ample proof that new England is not honoring their end of the deal he made with them during Spygate. What would Goodell's motivation be to discredit a star in the league and the team that just won the Super Bowl? Goodell has no motive to do this. He wins by this being pushed under the rug again. Yet Goodell is not letting that happen at all. He is digging in. He will be hearing the appeal, etc.

Today, Goodell is not in New England's pocket and I think it's safe to say he never will be again. Unless Kraft can get the backing of the owners and they can oust Goodell, he is going to find the sledding very rough very soon. The problem with escalation is there can be no winners. And it's all pointing to a grand finale where Goodell and Kraft both self-destruct.

Click to expand...

You mean this guy?

http://www.thebiglead.com/index.php/2012/10/21/a-nut-case-has-spent-30000-to-write-a-book-about-how-statistics-prove-the-patriots-are-still-cheating/

Just another bitter hater.

A Nut Case Has Spent $30,000 to Write a Book About How Statistics Prove the Patriots Are Still Cheating

Bryan O’Leary, described as a Dallas-based financial strategist who grew up a Steelers fan, has written a book claiming that statistics show the Patriots continue to cheat.

Kool-Aid Larry · May 19, 2015

Anarchy99 said:
Per Schefter, Pats two equipment guys were suspended at request of the league.

I gotta catch up on this thread --- what's the next thing the trolls have latched on to?

Todd Andrews · May 19, 2015

Kraft is a terd.

Did he care about the objectivity of the NFL investigations when him and his buddies Mara and Goodell were screwing the Redskins, Cowboys and Saints?

No, he heaped praise on Goodell and got him a massive raise.

Kool-Aid Larry · May 19, 2015

Old Smiley said:
Anarchy99 said:

Per Schefter, Pats two equipment guys were suspended at request of the league.

Click to expand...

!

Edit: Some more on that.

A link.

And a quote:

“Everybody says well if they did nothing wrong, then why are the Patriots suspending them and here is the deal behind that: Essentially, the NFL called the Patriots prior to the discipline being handed down and basically explained to the Patriots that in the best interest of the league the smart thing to do would be to suspend those two employees. New England went along with it,” Schefter said. “New England thought it was acting at that time, prior to the discipline, in the best interest of the league and so they went along with the league’s request to suspend both of those individuals. That essentially came from the NFL, not the Patriots. That is how it came down. That is how those two got suspended and that is the answer to the questions that people have asked as to why McNally and Jastremski have been suspended if they’ve done nothing wrong.”

Click to expand...

I know there were a lot of very concerned posters asking about this, earlier

Carter_Can_Fly · May 19, 2015

Kool-Aid Larry said:
Anarchy99 said:

Per Schefter, Pats two equipment guys were suspended at request of the league.

Click to expand...

I gotta catch up on this thread --- what's the next thing the trolls have latched on to?

You think these 2 equipment guys would have started tampering with balls just because they felt like it?

All this shows is that the NFL told the Pats to suspend two of the guys who were involved with tampering with balls. The NFL also suspended Brady in this as well.

I wonder how willingly the Pats suspended these 2 guys. They are definitely going down swinging with the suspension of Brady, I wonder if they will do the same with these 2 equipment guys or if they will try to make them the fall guys.

Flying Elvis · May 19, 2015

Baloney Sandwich said:
I haven't yet got around to reading the self-published book by a life long Steelers fan who happens to have zero contacts within the NFL but happens to be the guy who uncovers a giant conspiracy within the NFL.

I'm floored that any person could even link to something as idiotic as that book. The title alone reads like Fox News skewed headlines. Pathetic, really.

BroadwayG said:
The 16.0 psi text was obviously a joke. Just like all the texts except for the ones that could possibly be interpreted as incriminating. Those are all dead serious.

The incriminating ones and the ones where he says '#### tom' are clearly the ones that are 100% serious.

mikmak8902 · May 19, 2015

Carter_Can_Fly said:
Kool-Aid Larry said:

Anarchy99 said:

Per Schefter, Pats two equipment guys were suspended at request of the league.

Click to expand...

I gotta catch up on this thread --- what's the next thing the trolls have latched on to?

Click to expand...

You think these 2 equipment guys would have started tampering with balls just because they felt like it?

All this shows is that the NFL told the Pats to suspend two of the guys who were involved with tampering with balls. The NFL also suspended Brady in this as well.

I wonder how willingly the Pats suspended these 2 guys. They are definitely going down swinging with the suspension of Brady, I wonder if they will do the same with these 2 equipment guys or if they will try to make them the fall guys.

So, why haven't they reinstated these two gentlemen yet? Considering they so vehemently deny any wrong doing. And why were they so willing to suspend them in the first place? Hoping it would lessen Brady's penalty? It doesn't add up to me.

Kool-Aid Larry · May 19, 2015

Carter_Can_Fly said:
Kool-Aid Larry said:

Anarchy99 said:

Per Schefter, Pats two equipment guys were suspended at request of the league.

Click to expand...

I gotta catch up on this thread --- what's the next thing the trolls have latched on to?

Click to expand...

You think these 2 equipment guys would have started tampering with balls just because they felt like it?

All this shows is that the NFL told the Pats to suspend two of the guys who were involved with tampering with balls. The NFL also suspended Brady in this as well.

I wonder how willingly the Pats suspended these 2 guys. They are definitely going down swinging with the suspension of Brady, I wonder if they will do the same with these 2 equipment guys or if they will try to make them the fall guys.

fall guys for what?

they denied any wrongdoing

is this schtick or the next stage of grief, or whatever?

JIslander · May 19, 2015

They might need to be waterboarded.

Anarchy99 · May 19, 2015

Carter_Can_Fly said:
wdcrob said:

Agent and lawyer talk is cheap. We'll find out who really believes what when the lawsuits are/aren't filed.

Click to expand...

This is exactly it. This seems like posturing by Kraft. I am going to guess Kraft has some dirt on Goodell and Goodell has plenty of dirt on Kraft. The fact that Goodell has went to such a hefty punishment leads me to believe his dirt is much better than Krafts.

And it has been speculated that BB has dirt and dirty laundry on 31 other teams.

Based on what we think we know (that the Patriots had been underinflating footballs for a long time and many teams knew about it), it seems bizarre that other teams didn't make this an issue before if they really felt that the Patriots were getting some huge competitive advantage. Maybe they did complain and the league ignored it. But it seems equally clear that the league took inspection of the footballs lightly and suddenly started caring with the AFCCG. At a minimum, the inspection of the footballs and inflation testing would best be considered a lax process for years.

I still think the penalty was as big as it was because it is the Patriots. If the same scenario played out in Jacksonville, would this have been more than a footnote on web sites or sports pages? It would have been used as a punch line for jokes. The Jags are so bad, even cheating doesn't help. Maybe they should work on getting guys that can catch and throw the ball and not the balls themselves. No one would be calling for their Week 16 win against the Titans be vacated.

If the Jags did the same thing . . . even if they denied it, tried to cover it up, and did not cooperate with the league, the penalty would have been minimal. In fact, there would never have been an investigation. They would have been either told to stop or received a minimal fine.

To be clear, I am not suggesting the Pats are above the rules or they didn't do anything. I just think that the penalties were too severe, even if you want to hit them with a repeat offender penalty.

Anarchy99 · May 19, 2015

mikmak8902 said:
Carter_Can_Fly said:

Kool-Aid Larry said:

Anarchy99 said:

Per Schefter, Pats two equipment guys were suspended at request of the league.

Click to expand...

I gotta catch up on this thread --- what's the next thing the trolls have latched on to?

Click to expand...

You think these 2 equipment guys would have started tampering with balls just because they felt like it?

All this shows is that the NFL told the Pats to suspend two of the guys who were involved with tampering with balls. The NFL also suspended Brady in this as well.

I wonder how willingly the Pats suspended these 2 guys. They are definitely going down swinging with the suspension of Brady, I wonder if they will do the same with these 2 equipment guys or if they will try to make them the fall guys.

Click to expand...

So, why haven't they reinstated these two gentlemen yet? Considering they so vehemently deny any wrong doing. And why were they so willing to suspend them in the first place? Hoping it would lessen Brady's penalty? It doesn't add up to me.

The Pats can't reinstate them. Only the league can.

Carter_Can_Fly · May 19, 2015

Kool-Aid Larry said:
Carter_Can_Fly said:

Kool-Aid Larry said:

Anarchy99 said:

Per Schefter, Pats two equipment guys were suspended at request of the league.

Click to expand...

I gotta catch up on this thread --- what's the next thing the trolls have latched on to?

Click to expand...

You think these 2 equipment guys would have started tampering with balls just because they felt like it?

All this shows is that the NFL told the Pats to suspend two of the guys who were involved with tampering with balls. The NFL also suspended Brady in this as well.

I wonder how willingly the Pats suspended these 2 guys. They are definitely going down swinging with the suspension of Brady, I wonder if they will do the same with these 2 equipment guys or if they will try to make them the fall guys.

Click to expand...

fall guys for what?

they denied any wrongdoing

is this schtick or the next stage of grief, or whatever?

So help me out.

The Pats are denying all wrongdoing even with the 2 equipment guys? Why then if they are denying any wrongdoing would they agree to suspend these 2 guys because the NFL told them to and are not making a fuss about it like they have with Brady? Or maybe I have missed Kraft going to bat for these 2 equipment guys and pleading their innocence as he has with Brady?

Kool-Aid Larry · May 19, 2015

Bayhawks said:
Kool-Aid Larry said:

Run It Up said:

Bayhawks said:

So Brady didn't know what the rule was, but he was one of the people mainly responsible for getting the rule changed that allowed home teams to prepare their own balls? And he's the same guy who admonished the Ravens to "read the rule book?".

While its certainly possible for it to be true that he didn't know the rule, even the most die-hard Pats fan has to understand why not everyone is going to blindly accept this as the gospel truth.

Click to expand...

The rule change was specifically about how balls are prepared texture-wise, because home teams were supplying visiting teams with ####ty unprepared balls. Now visiting teams are allowed to prepare their own balls. Its entirely plausible Brady and most of the NFL didn't know the specifics of Rule 2.

Hard to convince anyone of anything when they perpetuate half-truths and complete misinformation.

Click to expand...

I have noticed a pretty consistent pattern when it comes to trolling this topic ---

1 - spew out a bunch of made up stuff or misinformation

2 - cry about the above

4 - PROFIT!!

Click to expand...

Try actually READING my post, not skimming it and deciding "salty hater, I'll disregard."

There are no half truths or made up stuff in my post.

2-but he was one of the people mainly responsible for getting the rule changed that allowed home teams to prepare their own balls?-(Underlined added for explanation purposes) Since I'm now discussing a DIFFERENT RULE, it is necessary to explain that, which is what I did.

dude, home teams always prepped their own balls

(bolded added)

Bayhawks · May 19, 2015

Kool-Aid Larry said:
Carter_Can_Fly said:

Kool-Aid Larry said:

Anarchy99 said:

Per Schefter, Pats two equipment guys were suspended at request of the league.

Click to expand...

I gotta catch up on this thread --- what's the next thing the trolls have latched on to?

Click to expand...

You think these 2 equipment guys would have started tampering with balls just because they felt like it?

All this shows is that the NFL told the Pats to suspend two of the guys who were involved with tampering with balls. The NFL also suspended Brady in this as well.

I wonder how willingly the Pats suspended these 2 guys. They are definitely going down swinging with the suspension of Brady, I wonder if they will do the same with these 2 equipment guys or if they will try to make them the fall guys.

Click to expand...

fall guys for what?

they denied any wrongdoing

is this schtick or the next stage of grief, or whatever?

Fall guys for this whole situation.

They denied any wrongdoing on Brady's behalf, as well, yet they are not suspending him, merely because the NFL asked.

You are being deliberately obtuse. If they truly feel they did nothing wrong, they would have told the NFL "no, we won't suspend McNally and Jastremski," or at the very least supported them in fighting the NFL, as they are doing with Brady.

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