NutterButter
Footballguy
I think you know what I mean. 30k in loans with an art history degree is a world of difference than 30k in with a computer science degree.
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Public College Tuition: should it be free? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Johnnymac
- Start date
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
True, but it also means less students entering college. Maybe we start seeing US universities competing more for international applicants?
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Sure, but a lot of people's brains don't work in a computer science, engineering way. I think there has to be a way to funnel people towards things they will excell at. Agree there are probably some vocations that we put a premium on, but we dont want to discourage people who have a passion for history or the arts from pursuing that. Another great way to decrease the quality of our teachers.
Van Dyman
Footballguy
Mile High
Footballguy
. You work in any of the construction type trades there is going to be days of pain and blood.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
And you don't think that a lot of the other kids this bill would help are working hard?rustycolts said:
The AVERAGE gpa of incoming freshman at the University of Florida is a 4.3. All of the top 100 public universities have an average incoming GPA above 3.5. These are mostly big schools with totall enrollments in the 40,000 - 60,000 range each year. The average among ALL public universities, including the lowest of the low, is 3.11.
There are literally millions of kids going off to college every year with a GPA of 3.5 or better throughout their schooling career, who have by your own definition worked hard to get there, and who will be rewarded for that hard work with piles of debt.
Your grand daughter's achievements are not unique. Her GPA is very much average among people going to college and she's very much lumped in with that group that conservatives such as yourself would slander as "entitled" because they're not OK quietly being taken advantage of by huge institutions that have broken their right to an affordable education.
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Parrothead
Footballguy
F college- too much work.. just give every American citizen a 100K allowance
#greatestcountryever
#greatestcountryever
It's arguable that too many people go to college as it is. Subsidizing it even more would make the problem worse.
It's also arguable that we shouldn't make people who don't go to college pay for the educations of people who do go to college. That's super regressive.
College costs way too much. It sucks for students, and it's a real problem. But the solution, IMO, is not hiding the cost by covering it up with subsidies. It's reducing the actual resources spent per student -- which is way more difficult, but who said efficiently organizing society was easy?
It's also arguable that we shouldn't make people who don't go to college pay for the educations of people who do go to college. That's super regressive.
College costs way too much. It sucks for students, and it's a real problem. But the solution, IMO, is not hiding the cost by covering it up with subsidies. It's reducing the actual resources spent per student -- which is way more difficult, but who said efficiently organizing society was easy?
Can you please tell me where this "right" to an affordable education is? And while you're at it, can you define affordable?
ArbyMelt
Footballguy
Correct. Most top private schools don't even give student loans. They give a grant and possibly a work study program. They just use the EFC calculated from the government and then use endowment money and give the grant. For my kids, it essentially made a top private school the same cost as the in-state public university.IvanKaramazov said:
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Quez
Footballguy
There are too many bs universities that are scams. I had a friend that worked for U of Phoenix as an advisor. He said he felt terrible because he knew most of the people signing up had no idea of the financial implications they were getting into. They would hold your hand through the entire process to make sure you got the loans, sent in paperwork, etc.
rustycolts
Footballguy
Obviously I have offended you in some way.I am very proud of my grand daughter as I am sure someday you will be of yours.I never came close to even sniffing those kind of grades when I was in school,but hey it was the late 60s and early 70s I had other things on my mind.I had a chance to go to college way back when using my VA but again I chose not to.So not having a trade or a college education I struggled in my early years.I was lucky though and worked for a major grocery chain in the South that really took care of their associates then as they do now,but it was very hard work.Until I moved into management I sometimes had to work two and three jobs just to make it.I don't want that for my grand daughter and I hope she will be able to take advantage of what a college education can do for her.I still think our disagreements on what the government should do for us is a generational thing.To each their own.We live in a country where that is our right.I will say that I liked what was posted about the way Australia handles this issue.So for what its worth I didn't mean to offend you in anyway.
chauncey
Footballguy
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
completely true, but we spend so much money on dumb bull#### in this country that the idea of funding education shouldn't raise everyones "BUT, COMMUNISM !" hackles. If we end the war on drugs and then reduce our defense budget by 5%. that's getting into the neighborhood of ~$45B annually.
There, now it isn't free. It's paid for.
renesauz
IBL Representative
Great point. All the whining about money for social programs, nowhere near enough whining about the absolutely ludicrous amount we spend on "National Defense"
NutterButter
Footballguy
Maybe in ten years your major won't matter so much bc you've managed to pick up some other skills or experience, but right out of school, forget it. While a cs major is making 50-60k starting, someone with some of these liberal arts degrees will be lucky to find a job.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Great posting. This is whatt ruffles a lot of people's feathers. They look around at all the crap we do spend our money on, but education doesn't seem to rank high on the list.
NutterButter
Footballguy
I think what also ruffles a lot of people's feathers is that compared to other developed nations, we spend a lot on education, but we get the results of countries that spend far less. We happen to be one of the top spenders.
HellToupee
Footballguy
Syracuse @ 41k 
not counting room & board on my D's list
couldn't believe it , Syracuse 41k . wtf
Billable (direct) Costs Other Indirect Expenses (average) Tuition $41,794 Books & Supplies $1,412 Housing & Meals 14,880 Transportation 642 Miscellaneous Fees 1,524 Personal Expenses 990 Total $58,198 Total $3,044 Subtotal $61242 (without Health Insurance) Health Insurance 1,890* Total Costs $63,132 (
not counting room & board on my D's listcouldn't believe it , Syracuse 41k . wtf
Billable (direct) Costs Other Indirect Expenses (average) Tuition $41,794 Books & Supplies $1,412 Housing & Meals 14,880 Transportation 642 Miscellaneous Fees 1,524 Personal Expenses 990 Total $58,198 Total $3,044 Subtotal $61242 (without Health Insurance) Health Insurance 1,890* Total Costs $63,132 (
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roadkill1292
Footballguy
Part of the ongoing problem with under performance is our unwillingness to adapt successful policies from those more efficient countries. "We're just too different for it to work here." Balderdash. Poppycock.
NutterButter
Footballguy
Ok, that's crazy.Syracuse @ 41k
couldn't believe it , Syracuse 41k . wtf
Billable (direct) Costs Other Indirect Expenses (average) Tuition $41,794 Books & Supplies $1,412 Housing & Meals 14,880 Transportation 642 Miscellaneous Fees 1,524 Personal Expenses 990 Total $58,198 Total $3,044 Subtotal $61242 (without Health Insurance) Health Insurance 1,890* Total Costs $63,132 (
rustycolts
Footballguy
The point I was trying to make was I didn't agree with Sanders plan to tax others to pay for something for someone else.I just don't speak or post as eloquently as most.The suggestions about redistributing money that we already use for examples policing the world,foreign aid to countries that hate us,war on drugs,money spent on sticking our nose in places we shouldn't be involved in in the first place.I could get behind that.I was just trying to say I never asked anyone to pay for anything for me and never will.I know that attitudes,values and times in general are changing but most of you guys will have to live with those changes a lot longer than me.So I guess there is that.
Oh and the entitlement thing you forgot to quote what preceded that you know about the old geezers.
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Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I am fine with providing every American with a library card, and funding libraries to be open, at least the main branches, 24/7. College, that should be a luxury for those who can afford it. By the way, if there is a more inefficient and wasteful paradigm for education than the traditional 4 year college in this country I cannot imagine it.
Van Dyman
Footballguy
I've noticed this in general, not specifically regarding education. It seems like, in many publicly debated policy issues, the debates are sorely lacking arguments based on what has worked in other parts of the world. It's like people here think this is the only country on the planet. Very weird.
Gawain
Footballguy
My Law school just crossed the 80K a year line. Tuition is 59,950.Ok, that's crazy.Syracuse @ 41k
couldn't believe it , Syracuse 41k . wtf
Billable (direct) Costs Other Indirect Expenses (average) Tuition $41,794 Books & Supplies $1,412 Housing & Meals 14,880 Transportation 642 Miscellaneous Fees 1,524 Personal Expenses 990 Total $58,198 Total $3,044 Subtotal $61242 (without Health Insurance) Health Insurance 1,890* Total Costs $63,132 (
Tuition the year after I graduated (10-11) was 51,510.
I never thought I'd be lucky to only have 110K in student loans.
ETA When I started in 07, tuition was 37,812.
A 58.5% increase in the worst legal market in a long time.
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the moops
Footballguy
Going to college just to get some job in a field that you have zero interest in sounds like a miserable existence. There are plenty of decent opportunities outside of teaching in those fields.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I am curious: what are they doing that we arent to have their system run more efficiently?
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
yep. and the reality is you can replace "health care" for "education" above and the point is just as accurate (and sad) there, too.
So, any time I try to think about what's wrong with how the USA has bureaucracy around things that are/should be important to most of us -- education, health care, a reasonable & logical rule of law, equitable distribution of justice for all our citizens .... I start sounding like a ####### hippie and how THE WHOLE SYSTEM IS JUST BROKEN, MAAAN. It just seems like such an insurmountable task to try to fix things that are all kind of tied together. exponentially rising education costs. horribly broken medical + insurance system. for-profit prison systems. The war on drugs.
I'm not a hippie. I don't even consider myself a leftist/liberal. and I don't hate this country. I just feel like giving up sometimes. Having kids can really #### with your head and your worldview. Remember when the FFA was all about russian brides and tales of pooping your pants? I miss that time.
Mile High
Footballguy
They have control of 99% of the money how much more do they need?
RedmondLonghorn
Footballguy
For all of those saying college "just doesn't make sense any more" or other such nonsense, just have a look at this chart. And this one.
People who run up massive debts pursuing degrees with little marketability at very expensive universities have some problems. Their biggest problem is that they made some very unwise decisions. Fortunately they are outliers, rather than the norm.
Generally making policy based on outliers is a mistake. Or, to put it another way, you can't stop foolish people from doing stupid things and it is futile to try.
People who run up massive debts pursuing degrees with little marketability at very expensive universities have some problems. Their biggest problem is that they made some very unwise decisions. Fortunately they are outliers, rather than the norm.
Generally making policy based on outliers is a mistake. Or, to put it another way, you can't stop foolish people from doing stupid things and it is futile to try.
cstu
Footballguy
Del Griffith
Footballguy
Jack White
Footballguy
HellToupee
Footballguy
BHCC aka Benny Hill CCDel Griffith said:Where? My daughter goes to Northern Essex CC, and it's more like $5500/year
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Degrees from places like U of Phoenix and Capella don't have a whole lot of market value, and their entire business model relies on gaming the student loan program.
I personally know somebody from my community who confided in me that she has literally $100,000+ in student loan debt thanks to her time at Capella. She paid her way through their PhD program, which is itself scandalous, since normally PhD students get paid, not the other way around. She reached the thesis stage and ran out of money, and then her advisor stopped returning her calls, leaving her completely stranded. She currently works as an HR director, which is okay, but she could have gotten to that point with a run-of-the-mill MBA too.
I do have to say that there are some PhD programs in the humanities whose existence is unconscionable given the lack of academic jobs in those fields, but ordinarily business-discipline PhDs are insta-employed. Not so for people who get degrees from for-profits.
renesauz
IBL Representative
renesauz
IBL Representative
BS. There are 5X the number of grads for those other "decent opportunities" than there are actual, you know, jobs. For some degrees, it's much worse than that. There's probably 20 Sociology graduates for every non teaching Sociology job.the moops said:
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RedmondLonghorn
Footballguy
It is a real shame those students were forced to go to college and pursue those courses of study. Oh wait...
Degrees that aren't in the sciences, business or engineering aren't meant to be career training.
Van Dyman
Footballguy
NutterButter
Footballguy
So part of the reason the cost of publicly funding the entire cost of college for Germans is so low is that the cost of college is almost entirely public funded to begin with.
AGAINST TULIP SUBSIDIES
Here is a highly abridged excerpt. It'll make more sense if you read the whole thing.
So presidential candidate Bernie Sanders has proposed universal free college tuition.
On the one hand, I sympathize with his goals. If you can’t get any job better than ‘fast food worker’ without a college degree, and poor people can’t afford college degrees, that’s a pretty grim situation, and obviously unfair to the poor. ...
But the solution isn’t universal [college tuition] subsidies.
Higher education is in a bubble.... In the past forty years, the price of college has dectupled (quadrupled when adjusting for inflation). It used to be easy to pay for college with a summer job; now it is impossible. At the same time, the unemployment rate of people without college degrees is twice that of people who have them. Things are clearly very bad and Senator Sanders is right to be concerned.
But Senator Sanders admits that his plan would cost $70 billion per year. That’s about the size of the entire economy of Hawaii. It’s enough to give $2000 every year to every American in poverty.
At what point do we say “Actually, no, let’s not do that, and just let people hold basic jobs even if they don’t cough up a a hundred thousand dollars from somewhere to get a degree in Medieval History”?
I’m afraid that Sanders’ plan ... would subsidize the continuation of a useless tradition [of getting a college degree just so you can put it on your resume], and disincentivize people from figuring out a way to route around the problem....
If I were Sanders, I’d propose a different strategy. Make “college degree” a protected characteristic, like race and religion and sexuality. If you’re not allowed to ask a job candidate whether they’re gay, you’re not allowed to ask them whether they’re a college graduate or not. You can give them all sorts of examinations, you can ask them their high school grades and SAT scores, you can ask their work history, but if you ask them if they have a degree then that’s illegal class-based discrimination and you’re going to jail. I realize this is a blatant violation of my usual semi-libertarian principles, but at this point I don’t care.
Here is a highly abridged excerpt. It'll make more sense if you read the whole thing.
So presidential candidate Bernie Sanders has proposed universal free college tuition.
On the one hand, I sympathize with his goals. If you can’t get any job better than ‘fast food worker’ without a college degree, and poor people can’t afford college degrees, that’s a pretty grim situation, and obviously unfair to the poor. ...
But the solution isn’t universal [college tuition] subsidies.
Higher education is in a bubble.... In the past forty years, the price of college has dectupled (quadrupled when adjusting for inflation). It used to be easy to pay for college with a summer job; now it is impossible. At the same time, the unemployment rate of people without college degrees is twice that of people who have them. Things are clearly very bad and Senator Sanders is right to be concerned.
But Senator Sanders admits that his plan would cost $70 billion per year. That’s about the size of the entire economy of Hawaii. It’s enough to give $2000 every year to every American in poverty.
At what point do we say “Actually, no, let’s not do that, and just let people hold basic jobs even if they don’t cough up a a hundred thousand dollars from somewhere to get a degree in Medieval History”?
I’m afraid that Sanders’ plan ... would subsidize the continuation of a useless tradition [of getting a college degree just so you can put it on your resume], and disincentivize people from figuring out a way to route around the problem....
If I were Sanders, I’d propose a different strategy. Make “college degree” a protected characteristic, like race and religion and sexuality. If you’re not allowed to ask a job candidate whether they’re gay, you’re not allowed to ask them whether they’re a college graduate or not. You can give them all sorts of examinations, you can ask them their high school grades and SAT scores, you can ask their work history, but if you ask them if they have a degree then that’s illegal class-based discrimination and you’re going to jail. I realize this is a blatant violation of my usual semi-libertarian principles, but at this point I don’t care.
