Borden
Footballguy
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000495547/article/report-jermaine-gresham-visits-new-orleans-saints
Edit: Used the search nothing since a 2012, 4 post thread.
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Jermaine Gresham (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Borden
- Start date
Edit: Used the search nothing since a 2012, 4 post thread.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
If he lands in NO he won't start over Hill. No, I'm not a Hill owner. Gresham just isn't very good. He's the epitome of average, if healthy.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Gresham is underrated, imo.
I have no idea if the back surgery slows him down.
But he is a 2 X Pro Bowler. He is one one of just three TEs to have 50 receptions in his first three seasons in league history, along with Mike Ditka and Keith Jackson. If he hadn't missed by 4 receptions in 2013 (and he missed two games), he would be on a current streak of first five seasons). He was a First-team All-American, and has first round pedigree (1.21). Just 27 in 2015. He could have serious upside in NO.
I have no idea if the back surgery slows him down.
But he is a 2 X Pro Bowler. He is one one of just three TEs to have 50 receptions in his first three seasons in league history, along with Mike Ditka and Keith Jackson. If he hadn't missed by 4 receptions in 2013 (and he missed two games), he would be on a current streak of first five seasons). He was a First-team All-American, and has first round pedigree (1.21). Just 27 in 2015. He could have serious upside in NO.
Borden
Footballguy
So what makes Hill better? Not looking for just knocks on Gresham but pros on Hill. Honest question.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Honestly, I'm not sure he's a better all-around TE. Gresham, healthy, is probably more well-rounded and a better football player. But if you're looking for a guy to slot into Graham's spot and give you a poor man's attempt at his role, Hill seems like the obvious choice. Gresham's hands and fluidity leave something to be desired, although he's underrated after the catch. Still, he's a better blocker than Hill I believe. But that's not something the Saints have looked for from that position in years.
Maybe I'm wrong, and due to wanting to run the ball more they want a more well-rounded option at TE, not just a receiver. But if you're asking who's more likely to step into Graham's role and catch TD's, I think that's Hill.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
That's all true, but did you watch much of him in CIN? He was ungainly, had some trouble with drops, and though he was tough after the catch he's a lumbering runner. He's just not what I would expect the Saints to look for to replace Graham. Hill is already a poor man's version of the player who excelled in that role.
Hankmoody
Footballguy
The Saints aren't going to realistically expect to be able to replace Graham per se. They will, like all teams, settle for what's available as long as the price is right and the fit is sensible. If it makes sense they will sign him and accept however the chips may fall.
thriftyrocker
Footballguy
Ben Watson is somehow still with the team. Wonder if Gresham replaces Watson.
Borden
Footballguy
Gresham looked bad. Very limited after the catch. Zero difficult catches. Lots of mental mistakes (penalties, drops, missed routes) and almost every catch is less than 10 yards. Lots of designed plays to Gresham as well. Screens and quick hitches.
Hill looked better but Drew Brees (and others) vs Dalton and his supporting cast is much different. The way defences play each offense is much different. Hill had a lot less touches and still managed a couple drops and false start penalty.
I would say IF Gresham ends up with the Saints, he will most likely play second fiddle to Hill but I think he could definitely chew into Hills production. May be a lose/lose from a fantasy angle.
Hill looked better but Drew Brees (and others) vs Dalton and his supporting cast is much different. The way defences play each offense is much different. Hill had a lot less touches and still managed a couple drops and false start penalty.
I would say IF Gresham ends up with the Saints, he will most likely play second fiddle to Hill but I think he could definitely chew into Hills production. May be a lose/lose from a fantasy angle.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
I agree with some of the above, which you already answered.
If healthy: probably more well rounded, better football player, better blocker and underrated after the catch.
I don't watch all 32 teams every week, but I've seen Gresham enough over the years to sense that I'm probably higher on him than you (I see him as being more athletic than you are describing). Your take may in fact be the consensus, in thinking he is ordinary, I've heard Bloom descibe him a year or two ago with less than lavish praise, so I may be in the minority. He is still available, which doesn't get checked off the positive side of the ledger for him, but maybe that is due to the recent back surgery (teams taking a wait and see approach?). Incidentally, I hadn't read your first post when I wrote mine, but saw it after (not that it would have changed anything I wrote). My feeling, though, is in calling him not good and the definition of average, we are left with trying to explain why his resume indicates a good, better than average body of work. Aside from the two Pro Bowls, it gets my attention when a player has done something few others in league history have. The only other TEs that had three straight 50+ seasons to start their career (and again, if not for two missed games in 2013, it is very likely five straight) were Ditka and Keth Jackson, and I think we can agree they were unambiguously good TEs*. So if it were something any old average TE could do, imo, it would have been done more often. But it hasn't. So I conclude, sort of on the basis of a modified extension of the Sherlock Holmes process of elimination maxim - if you have eliminated attempts to explain away that the achievement was special (speaking of myself, and I can't find any reasons, good or otherwise, to explain it away), maybe he is better than average and underrated.
To put it a different way, if you had been on Mars the past half decade with no Sunday ticket, and knew nothing about Gresham but that he was a 2 X Pro Bowler and shared the distinction with Ditka and Jackson, would the first thoughts that came immediately to mind be that he must not be good and was the definition of average? Based on that, I'd be inclined to think he was pretty good. Another fact that could be interpreted a few ways, is that he was on the same team with Green (NFL record for most receptions through first 2-3 seasons, at least). On the one hand, you could say Green was drawing coverage and Gresham was never double teamed. On the other, there were a lot of receptions that went to Green, that on a different team, might have gone to him in different circumstances?
Drop rate is an interesting point, because Graham had some drops himself. Lumbering is subjective, he isn't T-Gon, Graham, Gronk, but I think he can produce better than average numbers in the right system.
Hill is a player I haven't seen play enough to speak to (unlike Gresham), so I'm at a disadvantage in making the comparison you are. As noted, just speaking to Gresham. My sense, there is only one Graham, so how poor a version is he? If he is a completely destitute man's version, or dim reflection not really remotely like him, than NO may just look to put the best TE out there, even if it ends up being a different skill set. Which you already alluded to, so I agree with that possibility you threw out, that makes sense to me.
* TEs with 50+ receptions in first three seasons club
Ditka - 5 X Pro Bowl, 5 X All-Pro, he actually also had 75 receptions in season four (only TE with 50+ receptions in his first four straight seasons, though I think he never came close to 50 again?).
Jackson - 5 X Pro Bowl, 3 X All-Pro (just missed with 48 receptions in seasons four and five).
** Video highlights
Gresham at Oklahoma ('08, admittedly a while ago, but he is just 26 - turns 27 later this year - that year Oklahoma had a prolific offense, and he was the best receiving weapon on that team)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLXZq7Rv_NY
CIN ('12, the plays at 1:15 [[shown again from a different angle at 1:30]] and 3:25, I wouldn't characterize as lumbering, the catch at 1:55, and especially the one handed ones at 2:20 and 3:00 are pretty athletic, the play at 2:35 in which he drags 3-4 Chiefs into the end zone for a score flashes power, balance, toughness and determination)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PgXpls_KWA
I'm not sure why the disconnect in what we are seeing. He is a big, strong dude, he isn't Shannon Sharpe-sized, as far as his speed, movement skills, COD, elusiveness, RAC ability. In recent years, did he get bigger? Did the herniated disc cause his play to deteriorate in the past season or two? Was it a scheme and coaching decision to send him almost exclusively on short/intermediate routes. Could he get more route depth on a different team, with a different scheme and coaches?
Dunno?
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Borden
Footballguy
Mr. Magaw,
First off, I read your in the voice of Michael Caine so I felt you deserved at least a "Mr. Magaw."
However, I think what you are basing your conclusion on is very numbers and comparisons without context. Gresham was feed the ball on underneath crossing routes and TE screens. He caught almost nothing where he had to extend his arm or was at all contested. His yards after catch are very limited. At 4.3 yards after catch for a player who almost exclusively runs inside underneath routes and has screen plays designed for him this number is very low. Plus, just a such a large human even a step up field and fall forward he could almost pick up that much. I only saw the plays his name was written into (catches, intended targets and penalties) so I can't comment on his blocking.
Football Outsiders has Gresham ranked 47th of out 50 for TEs with 25+ passes from last year.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/TE
First off, I read your in the voice of Michael Caine so I felt you deserved at least a "Mr. Magaw."
However, I think what you are basing your conclusion on is very numbers and comparisons without context. Gresham was feed the ball on underneath crossing routes and TE screens. He caught almost nothing where he had to extend his arm or was at all contested. His yards after catch are very limited. At 4.3 yards after catch for a player who almost exclusively runs inside underneath routes and has screen plays designed for him this number is very low. Plus, just a such a large human even a step up field and fall forward he could almost pick up that much. I only saw the plays his name was written into (catches, intended targets and penalties) so I can't comment on his blocking.
Football Outsiders has Gresham ranked 47th of out 50 for TEs with 25+ passes from last year.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/TE
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Mr. Borden,
Bob is fine, you can dispense with the formalities. The Michael Caine reference reminded me of when Mike Myers cast him in Austin Powers, and to get his impersonation down, recited to himself over and over - "My name, is Michael Caine. My name, is Michael Caine. My name, is Michael Caine."
I switch up my inner narrator like casting director's use different actors for different roles, so sometimes Richard Burton, Gregory Peck, Sean Connery (not the SNL Jeopardy version - Who reads? for $100, Alex). But never Gilbert Gottfried.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5nJEv4Ut-M
I've seen him play, so it isn't true that my take is based just on numbers, and I wouldn't descibe that as without context. In my estimation, nobody really knows everything that goes into the process of why or how others come to the conclusions that we do (since we may not always know 100% of the inner workings even with our own minds - in this context, I recommend Blink by Malcom Gladwell, apart from scouting, too), and making those kinds of attributions can cause more mischief than mutual understanding. I highlighted some plays above that to me flash athleticism and non-lumbering RAC ability. Sometimes people look at the same thing, and see different things. It happens. This is well understood by police with often wildly varying eye witness reports on things like bank robberies. Many times it isn't a case of one witness being 100% accurate and others being 0% accurate, but everybody being right in some ways and everybody being wrong in some respects. Their job is to piece the testimony together like a mosaic.
I broached the question, were the shallow depth of route patterns a scheme and coaching thing, could he have shown different capabilities in a different system (which I think he did at Oklahoma). Again, however he was catching them, he put up historically good numbers to begin his career. If not for two missed games and being shy 4 receptions in 2013, he would be the only TE in league history to have 50+ receptions in the first half decade of his career (Ditka the only TE to do it in his first four seasons). If any stiff could do that, it would seem many more TEs would have, but that isn't the case. However you want to characterize that, I still haven't heard a compelling reason to explain that away.
Was that ranking in 2014? Maybe that had to do with back problems that he just had surgery for, hard to say? What were his rankings like in 2010-2011-2012?
Bob is fine, you can dispense with the formalities. The Michael Caine reference reminded me of when Mike Myers cast him in Austin Powers, and to get his impersonation down, recited to himself over and over - "My name, is Michael Caine. My name, is Michael Caine. My name, is Michael Caine."
I switch up my inner narrator like casting director's use different actors for different roles, so sometimes Richard Burton, Gregory Peck, Sean Connery (not the SNL Jeopardy version - Who reads? for $100, Alex). But never Gilbert Gottfried.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5nJEv4Ut-M
I've seen him play, so it isn't true that my take is based just on numbers, and I wouldn't descibe that as without context. In my estimation, nobody really knows everything that goes into the process of why or how others come to the conclusions that we do (since we may not always know 100% of the inner workings even with our own minds - in this context, I recommend Blink by Malcom Gladwell, apart from scouting, too), and making those kinds of attributions can cause more mischief than mutual understanding. I highlighted some plays above that to me flash athleticism and non-lumbering RAC ability. Sometimes people look at the same thing, and see different things. It happens. This is well understood by police with often wildly varying eye witness reports on things like bank robberies. Many times it isn't a case of one witness being 100% accurate and others being 0% accurate, but everybody being right in some ways and everybody being wrong in some respects. Their job is to piece the testimony together like a mosaic.
I broached the question, were the shallow depth of route patterns a scheme and coaching thing, could he have shown different capabilities in a different system (which I think he did at Oklahoma). Again, however he was catching them, he put up historically good numbers to begin his career. If not for two missed games and being shy 4 receptions in 2013, he would be the only TE in league history to have 50+ receptions in the first half decade of his career (Ditka the only TE to do it in his first four seasons). If any stiff could do that, it would seem many more TEs would have, but that isn't the case. However you want to characterize that, I still haven't heard a compelling reason to explain that away.
Was that ranking in 2014? Maybe that had to do with back problems that he just had surgery for, hard to say? What were his rankings like in 2010-2011-2012?
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I remember watching the play at 1:15 live, and I immediately started looking to trade him after that. Looked like he had a piano strapped to his back.
VarsityBlues123
Footballguy
No one would have guessed you are a Grasham owner.Borden said:
It was just a visit right now, relax.
VarsityBlues123
Footballguy
Trent Richardson was a top RB when he came out of college.Bri said:
Billy Ball Thorton
Footballguy
Gresham will be the #1 in NO if signed. He a chain mover and great blocker. Hill probably rarely sees the field.
VarsityBlues123
Footballguy
Is that why so many are banging down his door and he is still unsigned as of June 4th?
Boone22
Footballguy
I'm not going to sit here and say he beats out Hill as the starter IF they sign him but using the above as an excuse is somewhat irresponsible. He just had surgery on his back in March. I doubt anyone will break down his door until he's somewhat healthy.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
That was #43 (T.J. Ward?) he had strapped to his back as he dragged another CLE defender across the goal line, at the tail end of a near 60 yard play in which he split and outran like four Browns which he outweighed 50-75 lbs. on his way to the end zone, dodging a converging safety in the open field on the front end of the play. What did the four Browns defenders have strapped to their backs, those ACME safes the Road Runner used to drop on Wiley Coyote.zed2283 said:
He isn't Darren Sproles, he is like 260 lbs. (but than that is a big part of what makes him a better in-line blocker than Sproles). Not too many near OL-sized humans that run sub-4.4s and are as fast as Vernon Davis?
I still don't get it, though, if he is two missed games and four receptions in 2013 away from being the only TE in league history to have 50+ receptions in his first half decade in the league, why aren't there dozens or hundreds of piano-strapped-to-the-backless TEs in the same club?
* A question to the thread and/or New Orleans homers. What percentage of their plays had two TEs? Maybe Gresham and Hill could be on the field together at times. They have lost some size and receiving talent in Graham and Stills. Cooks is talented but undersized, especially for the red zone. Not sure how much longer Colston is going to play, which will be another future loss WR size-wise.
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Boone22
Footballguy
Jermaine Gresham - TE - Free Agent
The Saints have been looking into signing free agent TE Jermaine Gresham for a "couple months."
Per coach Sean Payton, there's "nothing set yet." Saints brass has spent a ton of time talking up both Josh Hill and Benjamin Watson this offseason, but could use another body as they try to replace Jimmy Graham. Gresham's arrival would be bad news for 34-year-old "Y" tight end Watson.
Related: Saints
Source: Mike Triplett on Twitter Jun 4 - 2:08 PM
The Saints have been looking into signing free agent TE Jermaine Gresham for a "couple months."
Per coach Sean Payton, there's "nothing set yet." Saints brass has spent a ton of time talking up both Josh Hill and Benjamin Watson this offseason, but could use another body as they try to replace Jimmy Graham. Gresham's arrival would be bad news for 34-year-old "Y" tight end Watson.
Related: Saints
Source: Mike Triplett on Twitter Jun 4 - 2:08 PM
JohnnyU
Footballguy
I read that Payton said he would be used more like Ben Watson and Hill like Graham.
Gottabesweet
Footballguy
I hope he doesn't sign. I actually own both in. Deep dynasty but I feel an time share on targets.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
But if Hill isn't Graham (he isn't) and Gresham is better than Watson, and not only that, Gresham ends up being better OVERALL in NO than Hill, it does complicate their respective projections, and make them murkier.
He didn't make any pro bowls.
The way I see it, Cincy (and most people here) saw this opportunity to draft a TE with fantastic other worldly type athleticism. They didn't need it, having a young probowl TE, but it would add this dimension to their O and maybe Green wouldn't be the focus of the D. The odds were instantly stacked against Gresham and he did well anyway.
The way it worked around here was Gresham was considered a good prospect a probably good TE. When Eifert was drafted suddenly people said Gresham stunk. Now that Eifert hasn't done so well, his fans haven't said "OK maybe we were wrong about Gresham" but the venom for Gresham became more prevalent and they still think Eifert will be the next Gates or somesuch. It hasn't been so honest or so genuine. I get angry at the TV when my FF player's backup produces. I'm not saying I can't relate to their sentiment nor how they got to that point, but he's not a Bengal so some Eifert fans need to put the axe away and be honest about it now.
Gresham is very well coached and well drilled. Most TEs enter the league and can't block well or run routes well and he can do it all and do it well. It isn't ideal for an offense to have a blocking TE and a receiving TE. It develops that way, very often in today's game, but it's not ideal. It should be that every TE is capable of blocking and receiving well and the TE is in no way indicative of what type of play the offense is running.
Jared Cook's entire career has been ooh he's in, well then they're going to pass. He's possibly the best TE on paper and he has such low production in his career. While with the Titans, the other TEs were way more effective. In St Louis, Lance Kendricks has been meh but even he has been more effective since Cook's arrival. Some games he's a surprisingly good TE.
The Lions went away from Kinnebrew (and his agent made the curious move of having him re-sign there) even though the guy could block and had plenty of 8-12 catch games. The result was Ebron struggling and now there's even bust articles about Ebron.
In New Orleans, we have to revisit last year's talk first. Remember we did discuss how Graham lined up often as a WR. First things first, has to be if the TE will line up like a TE or be lined up like a WR.
A young Watson probably could do a Graham imitation, but he is old now and nowhere near as athletic. Hill would be far better as a WR than Gresham.
If we're talking lining up as a TE, I'm back to what I wrote earlier- being a far better blocker helps keep the D more honest so Gresham is better suited to play TE than Hill. Somewhere along the way Watson absolutely did learn to block reasonably well and (unless age has made the bottom fall out) I think he's a pretty nice backup to have.
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JohnnyU
Footballguy
Actually, 3 Browns defenders ran into each other (although he stiff-armed one of them) and fell down, and he was barely able to get to the end zone before the others caught up to him.That was #43 (T.J. Ward?) he had strapped to his back as he dragged another CLE defender across the goal line, at the tail end of a near 60 yard play in which he split and outran like four Browns which he outweighed 50-75 lbs. on his way to the end zone, dodging a converging safety in the open field on the front end of the play. What did the four Browns defenders have strapped to their backs, those ACME safes the Road Runner used to drop on Wiley Coyote.zed2283 said:
He isn't Darren Sproles, he is like 260 lbs. (but than that is a big part of what makes him a better in-line blocker than Sproles). Not too many near OL-sized humans that run sub-4.4s and are as fast as Vernon Davis?
I still don't get it, though, if he is two missed games and four receptions in 2013 away from being the only TE in league history to have 50+ receptions in his first half decade in the league, why aren't there dozens or hundreds of piano-strapped-to-the-backless TEs in the same club?
* A question to the thread and/or New Orleans homers. What percentage of their plays had two TEs? Maybe Gresham and Hill could be on the field together at times. They have lost some size and receiving talent in Graham and Stills. Cooks is talented but undersized, especially for the red zone. Not sure how much longer Colston is going to play, which will be another future loss WR size-wise.
pizzatyme
Footballguy
Borden
Footballguy
Gresham only got into the 2012 Pro Bowl (2011 season) as a replacement. That season he finished amongst AFC TEs, 5th in catches, 8th in receiving yards, and tied for 5th (with two other AFC TEs) in receiving TDs.
The 2013 Pro Bowl went as a replacement again. The 2012 season against AFC TEs he finished 3rd in receptions, 3rd in yards and tied for 7th (with 3 others) in TDs.
Hill has only had two years in the league and both are behind the 2nd best tight end in the league.
The 2013 Pro Bowl went as a replacement again. The 2012 season against AFC TEs he finished 3rd in receptions, 3rd in yards and tied for 7th (with 3 others) in TDs.
Hill has only had two years in the league and both are behind the 2nd best tight end in the league.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Since we haven't seen Gresham in NO yet, there is no problem. Just speculation.JohnnyU said:
If you think Brees is better than Dalton, he could use Gresham to better effect.
It would also be remiss to not mention Gresham already played with a better TE than Hill, in fellow first rounder and best TE in HIS class, Tyler Eifert. He missed most of last year, but Gresham outproduced him in 2013. Eifert was a rookie, but Gresham also outproduced him in receptions and TDs when HE was a rookie, at a comparable stage of development.
Borden
Footballguy
From this thread I've kind of gathered a good general opinion on Gresham. So, thank you all for that. This is what makes the Shark Pool great.
My newly developed opinion:
Gresham is a good enough blocker that he doesn't leave the field. This create volume opportunity for him. It also creates potential exploits in a defense as they have to decide whether to allocate a man or short zone to him. Gresham is not fast enough or a dynamic enough pass catcher to a reliable fantasy #1 TE going forward. I can't see any other team making the effort to get him the ball the way Cincy did either.
My newly developed opinion:
Gresham is a good enough blocker that he doesn't leave the field. This create volume opportunity for him. It also creates potential exploits in a defense as they have to decide whether to allocate a man or short zone to him. Gresham is not fast enough or a dynamic enough pass catcher to a reliable fantasy #1 TE going forward. I can't see any other team making the effort to get him the ball the way Cincy did either.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
In 2012, his best season, relative to the league (not just conference), Gresham was 7th in receptions (64 - higher than Owen Daniels, Dennis Pitta, Martellus Bennett, Kyle Rudolph, Antonio Gates, Vernon Davis), 8th in yards (737 - higher than Daniels, Pitta, Bennett, Davis, Gates, Rudolph), tied 10th in TDs (5 - with Greg Olsen, Davis and Bennett).
Borden
Footballguy
Who did Gresham have to compete with at TE? A 33 year old Reggie Kelly and a Chase Coffman who has 9 career receptions to date. Eifert had to share snaps with Gresham would was the exact same pick as him but 2 years of pro experience over him. Just based on the competition I would hope Gresham had a better rookie season than Eifert.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
If he stiff armed one Browns defender into another and knocked them down like bowling pins, that is a good thing, right?zed2283 said:Actually, 3 Browns defenders ran into each other (although he stiff-armed one of them) and fell down, and he was barely able to get to the end zone before the others caught up to him.That was #43 (T.J. Ward?) he had strapped to his back as he dragged another CLE defender across the goal line, at the tail end of a near 60 yard play in which he split and outran like four Browns which he outweighed 50-75 lbs. on his way to the end zone, dodging a converging safety in the open field on the front end of the play. What did the four Browns defenders have strapped to their backs, those ACME safes the Road Runner used to drop on Wiley Coyote.
He isn't Darren Sproles, he is like 260 lbs. (but than that is a big part of what makes him a better in-line blocker than Sproles). Not too many near OL-sized humans that run sub-4.4s and are as fast as Vernon Davis?
I still don't get it, though, if he is two missed games and four receptions in 2013 away from being the only TE in league history to have 50+ receptions in his first half decade in the league, why aren't there dozens or hundreds of piano-strapped-to-the-backless TEs in the same club?
* A question to the thread and/or New Orleans homers. What percentage of their plays had two TEs? Maybe Gresham and Hill could be on the field together at times. They have lost some size and receiving talent in Graham and Stills. Cooks is talented but undersized, especially for the red zone. Not sure how much longer Colston is going to play, which will be another future loss WR size-wise.
Actually, Ward never fell down (he was impeded). This seems like semantics, he stiff armed one defender which also created separation from the converging back defender (what I called splitting the defenders). He isn't Chris Johnson in his prime or Jamaal Charles fast in the open field. Barely or not, he scored a nearly 60 yard TD, and he outweighs Ward (#43) by 60 lbs. and Haden was coming from a long way off, but Gresham outweighs him by 65 lbs.
Again, he missed by two games and just 4 receptions 50+ in his first five seasons. How many TEs have played in the NFL in league history? How many have accomlished that? 0. How many had pianos on their backs? 0. So you would think it would have happened more often, relative to the piano strapped to his back Gresham? Now Gresham didn't do it, he came close, but he did do something only Ditka and Jackson have done previously (50+ receptions in his first three seasons). It is a distinction.
Harpsichord, Piano, Hammond B-3 Organ (WITH Jimmy Smith playing it) strapped to his back... nonetheless, it is a distinction. I still see no reasons forthcoming to recommend explaining it away?
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Borden
Footballguy
I'm using NFL.com stats.
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=RECEIVING_TOUCHDOWNS&tabSeq=0&season=2012&Submit=Go&experience=&archive=true&statisticCategory=RECEIVING&conference=null&qualified=false
2012 in TDs Gresham was tied with: Bennett, VD, Dressen, Fasano, Hernandez, Olsen
His yards per game he finished 12th against all TE in the league. That's 5 spots below his reception spot. And that year included his career long 55 yard TD.
In his career he has 1 career game with over 100 yards (108), two career games with over 75 yards (108, 85) and one career multiple TD game (2).
Borden
Footballguy
Just watched the Gresham that is being discussed. I think everyone needs to go back and watch it. The safety takes out the pursuing LB and creates a pile for Ward to jump over (because he jumped up to play the run), Haden comes over and gets stiff armed and Ward jumps grabs onto his back at the 4 (sprinting from behind) and their momentum carries everyone (falling) in to the endzone. It's an awesome and fun play. Gresham doing his thing and a good play by him but it's not quite the dragging 3 guys, out running the coverage etc. that it's being made out to be.
The play. (NFL.com)
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap1000000080013/Gresham-55-yard-TD-catch
The play. (NFL.com)
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap1000000080013/Gresham-55-yard-TD-catch
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Where did you read that?JohnnyU said:
I doubt Peyton said anything about how he would use Greschem, since he isn't even signed with the team. I had read at one point (although it was the Rotoworld spin while the article it linked didn't exactly say it) that Watson would keep his role and Hill would fill the "Graham role". Perhaps that's what you are thinking of.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
A lot of people don't seem to think Gresham is very good (piano strapped to his back), so for them, it is unclear how much an obstacle he should have been.
Go league-wide. How many rookie TEs have led their team in receiving in the past decade? Is it a short list, what does it look like, who is on it?
If Gresham goes to NO, than Hill will have to deal with his presence like Eifert did. If Hill isn't as talented as Eifert, he could have a similar result.
What about Hill? No pedigree UFA (Gresham a first rounder, Graham a third - in fairness, big WR Colston was a seventh rounder, not far removed from Mr. Irrelevant status). Idaho State not the most impressive level of competition (also like Colston, who went to Hofstra, same as former Jet slot WR Wayne Chrebet). At a listed 6'5", sub-230 lbs., that might make him the smallest TE in the league? That is nothing like Graham (6'7", 265 lbs. - the weight difference between Graham and Hill is like the difference between Hill and a 195 lb. player), for those expecting him to slide into his role. Levine Toilolo took the "Tony Gonzalez role" in ATL, and he had 31 receptions and 2 TDs in 2014. He scored in games 3, 4, 7 and 14 (2 X), all games in which Graham played. If Graham is out of the equation, and no longer drawing double coverage but instead secondaries are focusing on Hill, is it realistic to think he will have as much scoring success?
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
The safety didn't "take out the pursuing LB and create a pile for Ward to jump over" in a vacuum, you are leaving some stuff out. Haden is #23 and lined up on the complete other side of the field (bottom of the screen), he wasn't stiff armed by Gresham? By the time the safety came up it clearly wasn't a run, Gresham already had the ball in his hands and had run about 10 yards in the open field. The stiff arm on the closer defender created separation with the converging safety, causing him to graze a second defender, and both fall down. It isn't like Gresham played a completely passive role in this play, he played an active role. Haden makes contact just outside or around the 5 yard line (so again, with his second stiff arm on a different defender on the same play enabling him to score, not seeing how this is a bad thing, or piano strapped to the back-like), Ward launches earlier but jumps on him closer to the 3 or even 2 yard line. Despite the earlier stiff arm, Haden was attempting to grab him around the waist/legs. Gresham was going in, with or without Ward's momentum, he dragged him past the goal line (again, this seems to be from the explaining away, it wasn't really that good school of thought). You also left out that Gresham outweighs Haden and Ward by 65 lbs. and 60 lbs. respectively. I missed where I said he dragged three defenders in, that is an exaggeration on your part. If you are going to break it down, might as well be accurate, it doesn't take any more time.
Boone22
Footballguy
I'm not going to sit here and say that NO ends up signing Gresham or that he even beats out Hill BUT, I find it really interesting that people around here believe so strongly in Payton's comments.
Does anyone really expect him to say "Well Josh Hill kinda sucks and we had no backup plan to Graham but we went ahead and made the trade anyway"? Of course he's going to talk up his TEs regardless of whether they are the second coming of Tony Gonzalez or Joe Klopfenstein (yes I looked him up ).
Now the one bright spot for Hill is that NO didn't address TE in the draft so maybe there is something to the hype. That being said, I doubt Payton thought a TE like Gresham would be available at this point in the offseason. If Gresham doesn't have the back surgery in March, he'd have been signed by another team months ago.
Does anyone really expect him to say "Well Josh Hill kinda sucks and we had no backup plan to Graham but we went ahead and made the trade anyway"? Of course he's going to talk up his TEs regardless of whether they are the second coming of Tony Gonzalez or Joe Klopfenstein (yes I looked him up ).
Now the one bright spot for Hill is that NO didn't address TE in the draft so maybe there is something to the hype. That being said, I doubt Payton thought a TE like Gresham would be available at this point in the offseason. If Gresham doesn't have the back surgery in March, he'd have been signed by another team months ago.
I wouldn't doubt that at all. If Kelly remembers Bradford in college, he's gotta remember Gresham. There were Redskins rumors a while back and I assumed because he used to play next to Trent. I don't see a real need for the Redskins at TE.
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I'm guessing the Saints gotta get something done here, soon. As I understand it, his back surgery about took him out of free agency. Now that he's shown a team he has healed up, I imagine other teams are going to be interested too. He's never missed more than two games. He's not injury prone like Zach Miller and the rest of the name TEs available.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
Gresham's worth a pre-emptive pickup based on his potential to land in Green Bay or New Orleans. Not much stands in his way to grab the starter's role. If he lands in Arizona or Oakland, you can always toss him back to the waiver wire.
