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Looks like VW is totally screwed (1 Viewer)

Everyone involved should be fired, for a start. I don't think they will be stuck for the full fine; they still have to recall and fix these vehicles. And I don't think "OMG, I unknowingly polluted" is much of a basis for a class-action suit.

 
kevzilla said:
Everyone involved should be fired, for a start. I don't think they will be stuck for the full fine; they still have to recall and fix these vehicles. And I don't think "OMG, I unknowingly polluted" is much of a basis for a class-action suit.
Click to expand...
It depends. If the "fix" for all of those diesel cars results in a significant reduction in fuel efficiency, VW owners could absolutely sue and win.

 
Workhorse said:
kevzilla said:
Everyone involved should be fired, for a start. I don't think they will be stuck for the full fine; they still have to recall and fix these vehicles. And I don't think "OMG, I unknowingly polluted" is much of a basis for a class-action suit.
Click to expand...
It depends. If the "fix" for all of those diesel cars results in a significant reduction in fuel efficiency, VW owners could absolutely sue and win.
Click to expand...
Also someone could say that the reason that they chose to buy the vehicle was based upon the 'cleaner' standards, and use that to sue.

 
Workhorse said:
kevzilla said:
Everyone involved should be fired, for a start. I don't think they will be stuck for the full fine; they still have to recall and fix these vehicles. And I don't think "OMG, I unknowingly polluted" is much of a basis for a class-action suit.
Click to expand...
It depends. If the "fix" for all of those diesel cars results in a significant reduction in fuel efficiency, VW owners could absolutely sue and win.
Click to expand...
I don't see how that would be the case. The thing only kicked on when being tested for emissions, right?

 
Workhorse said:
kevzilla said:
Everyone involved should be fired, for a start. I don't think they will be stuck for the full fine; they still have to recall and fix these vehicles. And I don't think "OMG, I unknowingly polluted" is much of a basis for a class-action suit.
Click to expand...
It depends. If the "fix" for all of those diesel cars results in a significant reduction in fuel efficiency, VW owners could absolutely sue and win.
Click to expand...
The report I heard on Friday said that this emissions detection software actually improved fuel economy and performance and that its purpose was only to meet the emissions standards. If that's the case (and I cannot back it up with anything) then VW should "just" be looking at government fines and recalls.
 
Ned said:
Workhorse said:
kevzilla said:
Everyone involved should be fired, for a start. I don't think they will be stuck for the full fine; they still have to recall and fix these vehicles. And I don't think "OMG, I unknowingly polluted" is much of a basis for a class-action suit.
Click to expand...
It depends. If the "fix" for all of those diesel cars results in a significant reduction in fuel efficiency, VW owners could absolutely sue and win.
Click to expand...
I don't see how that would be the case. The thing only kicked on when being tested for emissions, right?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what you are asking. They had a device that kicked in during tests that lowered emissions (likely at the expense of fuel efficiency and overall performance of the vehicle). The "fix" will likely be to lower fuel efficiency and performance at ALL times to get the emissions down.

Edit: If Ignoramus is correct above, then disregard what I said.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
This had to have been something very discreetly hidden that they thought would never be found. I just can't wrap my mind around higher-ups thinking this would somehow be a good idea.

 
Ned said:
This had to have been something very discreetly hidden that they thought would never be found. I just can't wrap my mind around higher-ups thinking this would somehow be a good idea.
Click to expand...
It was a software 'switch' that detected dynamometer conditions.

 
Ignoramus said:
Workhorse said:
kevzilla said:
Everyone involved should be fired, for a start. I don't think they will be stuck for the full fine; they still have to recall and fix these vehicles. And I don't think "OMG, I unknowingly polluted" is much of a basis for a class-action suit.
Click to expand...
It depends. If the "fix" for all of those diesel cars results in a significant reduction in fuel efficiency, VW owners could absolutely sue and win.
Click to expand...
The report I heard on Friday said that this emissions detection software actually improved fuel economy and performance and that its purpose was only to meet the emissions standards. If that's the case (and I cannot back it up with anything) then VW should "just" be looking at government fines and recalls.
Click to expand...
Well:

1) Those cars still need to meet emissions standards which means they'll all have to have an update that will permanently put them in the mode they kicked into during testing. So all those models will have worse performance and gas mileage from now on.

2) All of those vehicles will now have a lower resale value as well

 
GroveDiesel said:
Ignoramus said:
Workhorse said:
kevzilla said:
Everyone involved should be fired, for a start. I don't think they will be stuck for the full fine; they still have to recall and fix these vehicles. And I don't think "OMG, I unknowingly polluted" is much of a basis for a class-action suit.
Click to expand...
It depends. If the "fix" for all of those diesel cars results in a significant reduction in fuel efficiency, VW owners could absolutely sue and win.
Click to expand...
The report I heard on Friday said that this emissions detection software actually improved fuel economy and performance and that its purpose was only to meet the emissions standards. If that's the case (and I cannot back it up with anything) then VW should "just" be looking at government fines and recalls.
Click to expand...
Well:1) Those cars still need to meet emissions standards which means they'll all have to have an update that will permanently put them in the mode they kicked into during testing. So all those models will have worse performance and gas mileage from now on.

2) All of those vehicles will now have a lower resale value as well
Click to expand...
Yeah, plus people will say they bought the cars because they thought they were clean. I was way off.
 
Ignoramus said:
Workhorse said:
kevzilla said:
Everyone involved should be fired, for a start. I don't think they will be stuck for the full fine; they still have to recall and fix these vehicles. And I don't think "OMG, I unknowingly polluted" is much of a basis for a class-action suit.
Click to expand...
It depends. If the "fix" for all of those diesel cars results in a significant reduction in fuel efficiency, VW owners could absolutely sue and win.
Click to expand...
The report I heard on Friday said that this emissions detection software actually improved fuel economy and performance and that its purpose was only to meet the emissions standards. If that's the case (and I cannot back it up with anything) then VW should "just" be looking at government fines and recalls.
Click to expand...
I see what you're saying, but it looks like the cheat device only lowered the emissions when the car was being tested, meaning that people bought these cars thinking one thing when VW knew they were thinking that, counted on them thinking that, and falsely told them that intending to induce reliance. I think that's fraud and class action suits over this are a certainty. The damages will be reduced resale value and inconvenience (loss of use) for the needed fixes at a minimum.

 
I know some folks that work in Virginia at their US HQ - They are all ####ting major bricks right now. This thing is going to be very ugly.

 
Workhorse said:
I know some folks that work in Virginia at their US HQ - They are all ####ting major bricks right now. This thing is going to be very ugly.
Click to expand...
That's the real shame in all this. I'm sure a lot of folks that had nothing to do with this are going to be hurt. :sadbanana:

Hope your friends make it out OK.

 
Considering how many people must of known about this ahead of time, it's amazing they got it into the cars in the first place.

 
Vrana said:
Good summary here.
Click to expand...
According to this, dealerships can't sell the 2015 models they currently have in stock and the EPA won't give them the stamp of approval for 2016 models either. Those dealerships are gonna be screwed. Kinda like when BP stations were being boycotted during the spill it will hurt the local business owners.

 
mr roboto said:
Vrana said:
Good summary here.
Click to expand...
According to this, dealerships can't sell the 2015 models they currently have in stock and the EPA won't give them the stamp of approval for 2016 models either.Those dealerships are gonna be screwed. Kinda like when BP stations were being boycotted during the spill it will hurt the local business owners.
Click to expand...
It's just the TDI. And the 2015 versions have the systems they need already.

It's the used market that will be reeling from this.

 
culdeus said:
mr roboto said:
Vrana said:
Good summary here.
Click to expand...
According to this, dealerships can't sell the 2015 models they currently have in stock and the EPA won't give them the stamp of approval for 2016 models either.Those dealerships are gonna be screwed. Kinda like when BP stations were being boycotted during the spill it will hurt the local business owners.
Click to expand...
It's just the TDI. And the 2015 versions have the systems they need already.

It's the used market that will be reeling from this.
Click to expand...
Don't underestimate the overall brand hit regardless of whether it's simply confined to one engine model.
 
Ned said:
Workhorse said:
I know some folks that work in Virginia at their US HQ - They are all ####ting major bricks right now. This thing is going to be very ugly.
Click to expand...
That's the real shame in all this. I'm sure a lot of folks that had nothing to do with this are going to be hurt. :sadbanana:

Hope your friends make it out OK.
Click to expand...
Yeah, my FIL is a technician for a dealership here in town. We were talking about this yesterday. Gonna be interesting for him for sure.

 
Did they only do it to recent models? If so, it seems like a temporary blip. I'd be looking to buy some of their stock while it's depressed.

 
jabarony said:
wdcrob said:
Considering how many people must of known about this ahead of time, it's amazing they got it into the cars in the first place.
Click to expand...
It's likely that not too many people actually knew about this.
Click to expand...
I think it's noteworthy that a BMW/Toyota didn't try to reverse engineer one of these? I mean if they made EPA without the urea system they stood to save 2-3k in OEM costs a unit. That's worth at least a teardown. If it was just a software thing then maybe they couldn't have figured it out quite so easily.

 
Ignoramus said:
Workhorse said:
kevzilla said:
Everyone involved should be fired, for a start. I don't think they will be stuck for the full fine; they still have to recall and fix these vehicles. And I don't think "OMG, I unknowingly polluted" is much of a basis for a class-action suit.
Click to expand...
It depends. If the "fix" for all of those diesel cars results in a significant reduction in fuel efficiency, VW owners could absolutely sue and win.
Click to expand...
The report I heard on Friday said that this emissions detection software actually improved fuel economy and performance and that its purpose was only to meet the emissions standards. If that's the case (and I cannot back it up with anything) then VW should "just" be looking at government fines and recalls.
Click to expand...
The software improved fuel economy and performance by letting NOx pour out of the tailpipe. The fix, in whatever form it comes, will absolutely deteriorate fuel and performance.

Emissions, fuel, performance...all act against each other. Improving one generally comes at the cost of the others, unless more content at more cost is put into the vehicle to compensate. For example, many automakers have added a urea system which assists in emissions. VW avoided that, and kept costs lower, by allegedly cheating on the test.

 
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