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Of course that's what Swann believes because he knows that he didn't become a HOFer on his own merits, but rather based on the merits of the team that he got lucky enough to play on. He has little justification for his own presence if it's not about team accomplishments.Anarchy99 said:
Rk From To Draft Tm Lg G GS Tgt Rec Yds Y/R TD Y/G Ctch% Y/Tgt1 H. Carmichael 1974 1980 7-161 PHI NFL 104 103 348 5215 14.99 55 50.1 2 Cliff Branch 1974 1980 4-98 RAI NFL 101 99 342 6047 17.68 54 59.9 3 Lynn Swann* 1974 1980 1-21 PIT NFL 94 76 284 4692 16.52 46 49.9
Davis I am not sure. Longevity and the total numbers are overrated in this process, but there has to be some sort of cut off.
As I said before, stats don't tell the whole story. The 70s Steelers, with Franco Harris and Rocky Bleier, would run the ball 65-70% of the time. It wasn't uncommon for Bradshaw to have 10-15 passing attempts a game, especially prior to 1978. It is tough to put up big numbers when you get 3-4 targets a game.
Clearly, Calvin should've done more in that wild card game in New Orleans which the Lions lost 45-28. He only managed 211 yards and 2 TDs on his 15 targets.
That's fair. The gorilla in the room is, as you said, different era. Different game.
Longevity isn't that big a factor, especially in today's game as Max pointed out where players are making smarter decisions and earning, saving more of their money. Sayers didn't play forever and he's clearly worthy. Patrick Willis only played 8 years but I'm pretty sure people are going to recognize his talent every bit as much as if he had played 12 years. In most cases, player hang on too long anyway and their stats are terrible as the limp out those last few years. It is much more common than not that the final years don't stay as steady as the rest.Andy Dufresne said:
Preaching to the choir. My HOF would have half as many players in it. But they aren't going to kick guys out.
I was not explaining what I think the hall of fame is, rather what I think it should be. Fans of individual teams always want their love of their guys to be validated outside of their town, their team, their own ring of honor or hall of fame. Folks petition for greater recognition of their favorites. Sometimes these efforts catch the popular imagination a bit. Sometimes too numbers seem to justify inclusion and if cogent arguments against such are not rallied at the time that inclusion happens, leading to others to continue that chain of argument for another guy based on some number or set of numbers, often trivializing or intentionally ignoring less tangibly measure impact.
Sanders rushed for 15,269 yards, added another 2,921 yards receiving, and scored 109 TD in 10 seasons. How many players average 1527 yards rushing, 1819 YFS, and 11 TD a season over their careers?
I assume Swann is lobbying for Gary Kubiak to make it into the HOF as a player then.Anarchy99 said:
I thought it was for the best players of all time. You can argue that NO PLAYER is vital to the story of football. You can argue that hundreds of non HOFers are vital to the story of football.
Calvin is great, Barry was arguably GOAT for his position.
Should it be the best players of their time? Otherwise you might as well start kicking the old timers out because statistically speaking they'll never measure up and then you have people that never saw them play question why they are in the HoF.
You and I must see things differently because in my mind--when Calvin was in his prime--he was an absolute tour de force. Even in the years where he wasn't in his prime--he was still very much in that solid to elite level. All this without having a really great qb. To me--that's pretty dominant when it comes to looking at individual accomplishment at his position. If you see things differently--I can't blame you for having an opposing opinion. This stuff is all subjective by nature.
Check out the numbers Brandon Marshall has put up playing with Jay Cutler, Chad Henne, Ryan Fitzgerald, Kyle Orton, Matt Moore, Jake Plummer, Josh McCown, Chris Simms, and Jason Campbell. In 10 years with those QBs, he's averaged 88-1127-8 (and he barely played as a rookie and was banged up another year in CHI).
It is possible that there can be more than 1 player that dominates in any given position. I would vote yes on Brandon Marshall too--so I'm not sure how relevant an argument that is. The Hall of Fame is the NFL's way of showcasing the elite players that played in the league. There is zero doubt in my mind that Calvin (or Marshall) are/were elite players.
I think you just made a case for why Marshall should also be in the hall of fame--not why Calvin shouldn't. WIth that being said--as I said before--it's all subjective--so nobody should take this stuff too seriously.
Yes of THEIR time. I have mentioned that.Godsbrother said:
I totally agree that their numbers are quite similar. As far as the bolded, not yet but I think he knows that and is going to play long enough to make his numbers good enough that he makes the voters seriously consider him. I think he wants in the HOF. He hasn't even played in a playoff game because teams he has been on were mostly failures. When all is said and done, if he wants in the HOF, he will pass most every receiver. He's already on pace to better Owens numbers but he will need to play to age 36 to do so. Of course he said that the NYJ were the last team he's going to play for. We will see. Jimmy Graham said he was going to retire with Drew Brees.Andy Dufresne said:
2008-2009 probably Andre Johnson, maybe Fitz
the Lions did have a pass receiver make the Hall from the same era
You mean other than the fact that Roddy and Wayne outproduced Calvin in 2010, right?
