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  1. I agree with much of that and there is probably some hair splitting going on here. I understand we are pretending he didn’t go to ne and that’s fine, but I don’t see why we have to pretend we don’t know for sure that he is more talented than Spergon Wynn was. I am fine not considering anything that happened after Bledsoe went down, but the guy made the 45 man roster of a team that already had 3 QBs. There was nothing lucky about that, he showed he had enough nfl talent that the team didn’t feel they could get him through waivers. I agree we have no way of knowing for sure what would have happened and im not saying brady would have been hof no matter where he went. Lots of things factor in to just how successful a nfl career is, its the ultimate team sport. Im saying through talent and sheer force of will its very difficult to imagine (as some here are) that he wouldn’t have become a starter. To me that is pretty silly, but how successful would he have been, that’s the tuff one. Hard to say, he is a very pretty bright and determined individual and near impossible to keep down for long. I think it is safe to assume he would have (at some point) signed with a team where it was a good situation so there is no doubt in my mind he becomes a starter. Where would he have gone from there? Hard to say, success is a subjective word, but it sounds like you probably agree he likely would have had at least some success and that’s good enough for me. Agreed brady lucked out hooking up with one of, if not the best hc of all time, there is no denying that. However, bb had a pretty talented qb before brady and went 5-12 leading up to brady taking over. People talk about the system and we probably need another thread for the topic, but imho brady makes the system much more so that the system makes brady. The system can’t morph week to week, year to year, decade to decade unless you have a qb that is versatile, extremely bright and extremely talented. You can get away with lesser talent for a while, but not for long, certainly not 15 years. Anyway im sure we will hear from the “what about 2008” season crowd and that’s fine; if someone wants to start a thread on the ne “system” I will happy to share my thoughts on that. For all the words exchanged I don’t think we disagree all that much.
  2. Hahaha, good one A, Seriously though, putting all the end result driven, meaningless statistical concoctions aside. I do believe we are discussing what "likely" would have happened not wishful thinking or every possible scenario. Hell if you want to go that route then P Manning might have gone to a team that cared more about winning than compiling meaningless regular season passing stats. Its even possible he would have had a change of heart and not been so self centered and greedy (IE leave some money for other players on his team); heck maybe he doesn't take the peds and is out of the league by 2013 like he should have been. Hell everything is possible, but not everything is likely. But I digress. Again, we know that Brady was talented enough first year to earn a spot on the 45 man roster of a team that already a franchise qb and 2 backups so lumping him in with a bunch of guys who weren't doesn't make a lot of sense. Can you answer a simple question? Your not really saying\claiming it is likely brady would not have enjoyed success elsewhere, your just saying it is possible, right?
  3. Ugh, the reply I put the least amount of thought into has the first response. Ok, I assume your reply is directed at the discussion I was having with Aft? The discussion centered on “getting a shot” or a “chance” to start. The point I was trying to make was that every year a lot of qbs get significant opportunities and surely brady would have gotten at least a shot, no? Im going to skip the 199 number, passing yards, 10 games, blah, blah etc as they seem so arbitrary and meaningless. Unless someone can explain how\why these numbers r in any way relevant to the subject (discussion) at hand. Even if u believe the numbers might mean something, can they possibly mean as much as what we know actually happened yr1, yr2? So to directly respond to what you eventually got around to saying your point was “huge majority of late rd qbs disappear” I think it was: I reply, who is claiming otherwise? Certainly not me. Or to try and put it a little more nicely, Imho the numbers 1 of 45 (as in making the 45 man roster year1) seem a lot more relevant and meaningful than just lumping him in with every1 drafted after 199. We don't have to speculate about his first adn 2nd years we just need to acknowledge them. We already know for a fact that he went to a situation that was probably best described at the time as not ideal and yet he did enough to make the 45 man roster and then quickly become the #2. Some want to pretend (not saying you) that this never happened and that just doesn't seem to make any sense.
  4. I agree with some of that and anything could have happened but we are making best case for what we feel was likely to happen. I'm not saying if players worked as hard as brady theyd start, im sayin if they worked as hard AND were as talented they would get their chance to start and excel and nfl history is littered with examples. The NFL is a qb hungry league where every single year 40-50 or so qbs throw at least more than 100 regular season passes. To think that brady after showing what he did in his 1st couple of training camps wouldn't get a shot doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. To believe he wouldn't have likely succeeded once he got his shot after knowing what we now know doesn't seem to make a lot of sense either. Its mostly conjecture but I believe my side of the argument has a lot more logic and fact on its side than the "not likely to have become a starter" crowd does. We can agree to disagree, its all good.
  5. Ghost you are entitled to your own opinion however obviously illogical and incorrect it may be, but you don’t get your own facts. For the moment let us agree for the sake of argument that brady didn’t get to start in NE and try to play out your hypothesis. That doesn’t change the fact that he went from 4th string to second string in year one. So after quickly becoming the #2 qb and outplaying Bledsoe in tc of year two (another fact) the patriots inexplicably release him. This makes sense only if you are determined and that you are (for whatever reason) to ignore all the facts surrounding what actually transpired in Brady’s first 2 training camps. So brady against all logic and reason is released and a team with an unquestioned starter picks him up (instead of the dozen or so qb desperate teams most all of which likely have ww priority). But whatever this is your fantasy, so what happens then? How long do you think this new super awesome qb team gets to sit brady on the bench? A year? Brady is now in the 3rd year of his rookie contract and is sitting on the bench. Is this team going to franchise him, does brady seem like the type who would sign another contract if he weren’t assured of a chance to compete and start? Yes opportunity matters, we don’t disagree there, where you go wrong is not acknowledging that opportunity can be earned in practice and tc. Sure it might have taken him a little longer and as previously acknowledged he might not have had as much success. However, to make the gargantuan leap from that to say “it's likely he never makes it in the NFL as a starter“ is just over the top ridiculous. You can only make such a leap by ignoring (intentionally or not) all the facts to the contrary. I truly mean no disrespect but you so obviously have no idea of what actually went on during bradys first 24 months in the nfl. Don’t believe me? There are lots of good sources you can research. Checkout Gary Myers Brady v Manning book (page 112) for one.
  6. I understand\agree your point that he might have gone to a team and not had a chance to start initially. There is no argument there, the disagreement lies with those making the leap from that to “it’s likely he never makes it in the nfl as a starter” which flys in the face of all fact and logic.
  7. I was referring to your "Bledsoe came in and led a small comeback against Pittsburgh and won the game" statement. You've since explained you were watching the game in a bar which is fine, but that doesn't make the statement any less incorrect. Its all good.
  8. Got to respectfully disagree: How/why is he going to languish on the bench when every time he steps on the field it is obvious to anyone watching he is a leader? Sure he could have sat on the bench for a couple or even a few years, but you act as if he came into this great situation and got lucky. How many teams keep FOUR QBs? Why do u think they did that in his rookie year? Why did BB go with him when he already had a super star qb? He was 4th string for gods sake on a team with a franchise qb and in 1 yr quickly worked his way to #2. How can some of you believe he wouldn't have gone somewhere else and been successful? Rolling with Bledsoe that year? Meh, I beg to differ a little bit on that; BB is on record acknowledging that Brady had out played bledsoe that year in tc. If ne went 5-11 again that year bb might not of even have had a job the following year. BB does what he thinks will give him the best chance to win and if the team kept losing under bledsoe bb may well have put brady in. Even if he didn't give brady a shot during that year he sure as hell would have the following tc. Lets pretend brady never gets to start for ne and goes somewhere else, what are the chances he never gets a chance anywhere? Pretty much zero if u ask me. Brady worked his ### off to get to the top and that wasn't going to change if he was somewhere else. If he didn't become a starter in ne he would have done it somewhere else. Not saying he would have enjoyed the same amount of success, particularly as quickly, but to think he is going to languish on the bench and be a career backup never getting a chance is simply absurd. I think many of you have no idea just how obsessed, driven and talented the man is.
  9. O, Thought I simply pointed out (about as nicely as I could) where i felt you were wrong and then gave a counter opinion. Not sure why that seems to have set you off other than you hate to be corrected and are apparently still carrying some kind of a grudge. Too bad, let it go, every exchange doesn't need to be a sword fight (not that i don't love sword fights). Okey, dokey, we can do it your way. Posters who disparage NE players often get their panties in a twist if a NE fan has the audacity to point out factual errors and offer opinion that is at odds with said disparagement. Said posters also often love to quote\respond to one NE fan while simultaneously attempting to lump all NE fans together in some sort of lame attempt at disparaging NE fans in general in discrediting the one in particular. A twofer so to speak. If Im speaking for other NE fans I will let you know and if you want to refer to NE fans in general it might be best not to quote my post when you do it. You shared your opinion that Brady was “merely a game manager” and imho that implies brady wasn’t a critical factor and I disagreed. However, I did agree with much of what you said in that the def and st were obviously critical. I don’t think I said they never would have won with Bledsoe starting all year but you can put me down as believing it. Obviously anything is possible (look at the presidential race) and no one can prove it one way or the other. However Occam’s Razor applies afaic and it is far from baseless (imho) to believe they don’t even get to the playoffs never mind win the sb without brady. They were 5-12 in the previous 17 games with bledsoe starting and going nowhere fast. They were 14-3 with brady starting immediately thereafter. No I can’t prove that they couldn’t possibly have done that with bledsoe but it seems highly unlikely. It was rather obvious that the team responded to brady’s skills and leadership in a way they never did or would have with bledsoe. I rooted for and watched Bledsoe his entire ne career and he was never, ever the obsessed, driven leader brady was from day one. Seems fair to say one of the greatest minds in football recognized that and felt the same way.
  10. I believe bledsoe came in near the end of the 1st half with the lead and the ball already on pits side of the field and yes there were some in the local media who backed bledsoe (broken clock borges for one); but little doubt brady was playing if healthy (imo). I was happy Bledsoe got to be a part of it all, but brady outplayed him from the get go in tc that year. Yes the def and st were critical to their 1st sb, that is undeniably true, but to pretend that bradys play and leadership wasn't also a critical factor is a mistake many non ne fans make. Check out their record in the 16 games leading up to brady taking over. If this "game management" were so easy why wasn't the 100 million dollar man able to do it? I worshiped Bledsoe for the longest time but for all the talent the guy didn't have the drive and the determination that the great ones like a marino, montana or a brady have. I told 2 friends on the drive to tc that year that I was ready to see someone other than bledsoe under center. I didn't know it would be brady, but once he got in there I knew he was never coming out.
  11. Ah first Brady-Manning thread of the season.... I respectfully disagree, of course its an insulting and belittling thing to say Brady is only great because he is in the "right situation"; nonsense. Some guys had everything handed to them from the day they were born (I.E. Manning) other guys have to work a lot harder. Hard work doesn't diminish greatness, imho it enhances it. I guess this is the point in the conversation where we need to agree on the definition of "great". If its purely about throwing a beautiful pass, Manning is as great as has ever lived; however if being a "great" qb is about a "lot" more than simply throwing a beautiful ball then Brady is equally as "great" as they come. This silliness that Manning would have succeeded anywhere and Brady wouldn't have is just such crap. Put Manning on a crappy outdoor team that isn't built from day one to revolve around him for his entire career and he doesn't get nearly the numbers he did. Perhaps he lands on a team that believes you win more with strong defense than strong offense and he doesn't get the chance to throw 28 interceptions his first year etc etc. Could Brady have gone to a team with poor management and coaching and never achieved true greatness? Sure, but if we are really comparing apples to apples then manning certainly could have suffered a similar fate as well.
  12. I know I'll get flamed and I am sure it is just a huge coincidence, but his significant drop off in play does coincide with the PSI rule changes. Just sayin
  13. A. = Decades old story (nuff said) B. = Just read the posts on this page and look at how the woman is being disparaged As for your tbag speculation, it is rather absurd considering the the fact it was Shaun King who introduced the story to social media and it is social media that is responsible for exposing him for the fraud he is. It has nothing to do with what a classless steroid fueled (wolfe, miller, manning, take ur pick) bronco dirt bag said he tried to do after they won the SB (no class); that's just apologist deflection.That you are proud of one of your players doing\saying that in victory and would actually bring it up is kinda lame imho. You ought to be embarrassed at the lack of class the broncos showed, but obviously u r not.........Again, it is just deflection tactic on your part as this has zero to do with the broncos.... WHY SHOULD WE BELIEVE GREG JOHNSON, PEYTON MANNING'S LONG-LOST STAR WITNESS?
  14. Ok apologists Manning's sexual assault doesn't matter since A. it happened in the past and B. she was asking for it so it was "her" fault. PED shipments to Peyton's house are no problem since conveniently there is another woman to blame for that. Peyton is a greedy, born with a silver spoon in his mouth sexual harassing PED taking turd of a fraud, but he is your hero and you wuv him so very, very much you have to ignore his despicable behavior and attack ner instead..... Good grief.......
  15. It is rather curious that the original thread link (and the Bronco cheating link) were both broken, but all the others seems to be working just fine.....