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bostonfred

Who's better, Manning or Brady?

Who's the better quarterback?  

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I think it is funny how much of the voting is based on what have you done lately. This is the closet the vote has been in a while.

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I think it is funny how much of the voting is based on what have you done lately. This is the closet the vote has been in a while.

Brady was ahead in this poll a few months ago. Then bassnbrew bumped it when Brady had started slow and manning was on fire. Then someone else bumped it after manning's playoff loss and it's gone the other way. And bass even came back to say he was wrong, brady is better. Long time manning guy Just Win Baby just put brady a tier above manning.

In 2003 this discussion had started, after brady had a couple rings and manning had better stats. Bradys head to head victory over the Colts in the playoffs helped fuel the debate.

2004 saw manning take a decisive lead when he set an nfl record for touchdowns. But then brady best the Colts again while manning led the Colts to just three points, and people voted for brady and his undefeated playoff record again.

Then in 2005, brady finally lost his first playoff game, and people leaned towards manning. And momentum for manning picked up again in 2006 when the Colts finally won a superbowl - after beating the patriots in the afccg. All the people who had claimed manning would eventually have as many rings as brady seemed vindicated.

Then 2007 the patriots had the record setting undefeated season, and people leaned back towards brady, even after the superbowl loss.

Until 2008, when Brady got hurt in the first game, and manning had an mvp season that ended with yet another first round playoff exit.

And 2009, when manning went to another superbowl, he took a huge lead in the debate, even after the pick six that lost the game.

Then 2010, brady won his second mvp with a ridiculous 36 to 4 td to int ratio. And the scales tipped back, even after the pats lost in the divisional round to the jets. And in 2011, when manning was hurt, the pats wentto another superbowl. Brady took a decisive lead, until it was announced that manning was coming back.

A few bad games out of the gate, and people questioned whether manning would ever get his arm strength back. Then he turned it on and didn't look back. And the 2013 season when he retook the td record and a bunch of others, manning was the decisive leader again. And the first half of this season looked no different.

But another one and done for manning, and another afccg or more for brady, after an elite playoff performance, he's taken almost every vote cast since this most recent bump.

To me that's what makes this rivalry so compelling. I've always backed brady, but the swings back and forth year after year were just incredible, with each setting the bar higher for the other, then watching the other leap over it. It's been awesome watching them both. I think manning comes back and I think he wants to be the definitive goat, but if he's done, I'll be as sad as anyone to see him gone. This has just been too good.

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I think at this point with all these high quality QBs with huge stats retiring you are almost going to have to make a pitch as to whether he belongs in the HOF. One more playoff stinker and I could easily see HOF passing on him the first time for some other names that could actually perform on the big stage, not stat padding against the AFC West.

oh come on now

Take out the regular season for Manning and all other QBs. Now compare him to the HOF QBs. It's bloody. Really bloody.

At some point playoff performance matters. I realize he's getting in, but people that know, know he's got some serious choke issues.

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I think at this point with all these high quality QBs with huge stats retiring you are almost going to have to make a pitch as to whether he belongs in the HOF. One more playoff stinker and I could easily see HOF passing on him the first time for some other names that could actually perform on the big stage, not stat padding against the AFC West.

oh come on now

Take out the regular season for Manning and all other QBs. Now compare him to the HOF QBs. It's bloody. Really bloody.

At some point playoff performance matters. I realize he's getting in, but people that know, know he's got some serious choke issues.

Your reasons are irrelevant. The guy who's been the most statistically dominant QB of the big stats era, who has been the face of the NFL for a decade and a half, and who seems to be just about the most beloved player in league history simply isn't going to be fighting any battles to get enshrinement.

And I don't even like the guy. I think he's come up short in way more than his fair share of big spots, but Canton will still probably build him his own wing.

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As for Unitas, it seems to me that those asking why he would be in the top tier don't have an appreciation of what he accomplished.

1. 3 NFL championships and a Super Bowl championship 5 afc championships, 9 afccg, 3 super bowl championships so far

2. Led team to comeback win in 1958 NFL championship in "the greatest game ever played" which is credited for increasing the popularity of pro football led game winning drives against rams and panthers and played in five superbowl games decided by one score.

3. 3 time MVP and 5 time first team All Pro 2 time mvp 3 time first team all pro

4. 27 4Q comebacks and 29 game winning drives 34 4q comebacks and 45 game winning drives

5. Held record for most consecutive games with a TD for 52 years until Brees broke it; that is staggering when considering the evolution of the NFL passing rules over that span[tied that record

6. Led league in passing yards 4 times, passing TDs 4 times, yards per game 4 times, YPA 3 times, interception percentage 2 times, and passer rating 3 times Led larger league in yards 2x, tds 3x, QB rating 2x

7. Top 5 in the league in passing yards 11 times, passing TDs 9 times, passer rating 11 times 5, 8 and 4, respectively, but in much larger league. Expand to top six or more and those numbers go way up

8. First QB to pass for 40K yards first QB to pass for 50 tds. Has over 53k passing yards to date

9. Still #10 all time in YPA, #19 all time in YPC and passing TD percentage, and #11 all time in total offense; again, IMO that is staggering given the evolution of NFL rules and the QB position top five in all categories and counting

10. Called his own plays same

11. Made the NFL's 50th and 75th anniversary teams seems likely to make the 100th

So he won titles, won impressive honors/awards, put up great statistics, set a new standard at the QB position, and helped popularize football at a time when it did not enjoy the popularity it enjoys today.

Interesting to put them side by side. It's always hard to compare across eras - being top five in a smaller nfl is easier, but compiling stats is easier today for example. I think brady compares more favorably than you might have expected, but Johnny u is clearly incredibly impressive. Thanks for taking the time.

Why did you change what I posted about Unitas' 4Q comebacks and game winning drives? As I posted, Unitas had 36 and 40, respectively.

Weird. Look at this page - same site, different page - and it lists his numbers differently.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/gwd_career.htm?mobile=false

Either way, brady has more. But it's weird that the numbers come out different. Must use different criteria or something.

The regular page shows regular season passing stats, so I was assuming the difference might be adding postseason but didn't attempt to verify.

Brady has more, but he has played in an era in which it is much easier to accumulate offense, and kicking is better. IMO it was harder for Unitas to achieve his 4QCs and GWDs.

But, as I said, my current view that Brady is behind only Unitas and Montana is extremely high praise.

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Long time manning guy Just Win Baby just put brady a tier above manning.

This is true. Early on, I thought Manning's postseason performance would even out and he would end up with 2-3 championships. And I thought Brady's success would also inevitably even out and his postseason success would flatten out. I figured he would end up with the same 3 championships he accumulated early. And so far that last part has been true.

But it finally in this postseason reached the tipping point for me. Brady's accumulated (regular and) postseason success has finally surpassed Manning's incredible career statistics and honors/awards combined with his relatively disappointing postseason performances.

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If Bill Bellichek had coached Peyton Manning, they'd have about 8 rings right now.

Too soon really to be discussing this, I feel bad for Manning, it was tuff to watch such a great competitor and perfectionist struggle like that.

FWIW, I don't doubt that Manning would have been more successful in the post season with BB as HC. However, had he played for BB, outdoors on a team not built around him, Manning wouldn't have had nearly the opportunity to generate the gaudy regular season stats and accolades. Its kind of 1 or the other imho, you can't build an entire team and offense around him, rave about his regular season stats and how wonderful and smart he is and then when he loses in the playoffs turn around and complain that if he only had a better defense he would have won more championships. It's like the kid who kills his parents and then asks the judge for mercy because he's an orphan.

Yeah, if his team had dedicated more resources to building a more balanced team (IE gave more attention to the defense and less to the offense) they would have increased his chances of winning a championship. However, then he doesn't have as good of an offense and wouldn't even have needed to score as much with a better defense. The end result being his regular season stats go down quite a bit. How much would they go down and just how successful he would have been in the post season are open to debate.

I'm not ripping Manning in any way here, just pointing out what I feel is fairly obvious.

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Imagine if Brady had had Wayne and Harrison and the Edge in their day, probably 7 straight Super bowls!! lol.... And if I grow wings tonight, tomorrow I can learn to fly! Anyways, it's Brady in a landslide, if you take out the "I voted because I hate Brady right now" votes. Manning, like Brady, is a classy guy, a first ballot HOF player. Let's see what happens over these next 3 weeks.

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Brady has the rings, Manning has the records.

I voted for Manning because I think his command of the offence and his pre-snap adjustments are unmatched.

I think Belchick (and the teams he built) helped Brady and his wins more than the offensive players Manning had helped his stats but I'm willing to call it a wash for the sake of progression in this discussion.

All this talk about post season performance, I think we need to look at the numbers again.

Brady - 27 games - 623 comp - 1000 att - 62.30% comp - 6791 yards - 46 TDs - 23 Int - 88.0 QBR

Manning - 24 games - 598 comp - 935 att - 63.96% comp - 6800 yards - 38 TDs - 24 Int - 88.5 QBR

The TDs is the big one and Brady has that but the way Manning's performances get talked about in general and compared to Brady those numbers are a lot closer than they should be. Also, Brady's numbers will obviously change since Brady has two more games this season (most likely) and probably more next season but for today that's where they stand.

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Look at these numbers too:

Brady: 19-8

Manning: 11-13... and doesn't Manning have 9 years one and done?

Brady has won 3, Manning 1

They've both laid some eggs for sure but bringing up the most important playoff "number" is key.

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Look at these numbers too:

Brady: 19-8

Manning: 11-13... and doesn't Manning have 9 years one and done?

Brady has won 3, Manning 1

They've both laid some eggs for sure but bringing up the most important playoff "number" is key.

Wins and loses are a team stat. So, if you're going to use that to back Brady than Rob Johnson and Trent Dilfer are better than Dan Marino. And Terry Bradshaw and Joe Montana are the unquestioned two best QBs of all time.

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Look at these numbers too:

Brady: 19-8

Manning: 11-13... and doesn't Manning have 9 years one and done?

Brady has won 3, Manning 1

They've both laid some eggs for sure but bringing up the most important playoff "number" is key.

Wins and loses are a team stat. So, if you're going to use that to back Brady than Rob Johnson and Trent Dilfer are better than Dan Marino. And Terry Bradshaw and Joe Montana are the unquestioned two best QBs of all time.

didn't realize those guys had comparable stats (or ability)

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69691 passing yards vs 53258

530 passing TDs vs 392

65.5% comp vs 63.5%

97.5 QB Rating vs 95.9

14× Pro Bowl vs 10x
7× First-team All-Pro vs 3x
3× Second-team All-Pro vs 1x
5× AP NFL MVP vs 2x
NFL all-time leader in career touchdown passes
Tied most Pro Bowl Appearances by any player
Pro Bowl MVP (2005)
NFL Single Season Passing TD Record
NFL Single Season Passing Yards Record
Both very good but clearly one is better. The only thing Brady has over Manning is wins. That's why I brought up those other QBs because if that's how heavily you rate wins then fine but then the conversations about all QBs needs to be re-evaluated.

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Being a quarterback isn't defined by how many times you throw the ball and for how many yards or TDs.

Peyton probably has been the best passer over his career (easily illustrated by his probowl and MVP seasons), but even then it's a crowded group.

People also give Peyton a lot of credit for his intangible football smarts, Brady does just as much at the line and with worse supporting talent and often the credit is attributed to Belichick.

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I believe manning has also had 2 extra years to accumulate regular season stats

although, I can never take his pro-bowl mvp away from him

how are wins team accomplishments and not passing stats?

are there guys blocking?

are there guys catching those passes?

are there rb keeping your drives alive to score td?

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with Manning's postseason failures, he definitely goes down a few spots on the 'best-ever QB' totem pole..

quite a few spots, IMO.he's just a choker in big games..Eli is the Manning who is kills it in big games, not Peyton.

there's only so much the 'best-ever regular season QB' moniker will take you..

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I am going to go out on a limb and suggest this guy would vote for Manning over Brady . . .

Tom Brady: The Most Overrated QB of This Generation

http://fantasyknuckleheads.com/tom-brady-the-most-overrated-qb-of-this-generation/?utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=referral

Best part of the article: ( while describing how Brady needs great players to have great stats )

The story is the same for Wes Welker, Brady averaged 8.13 YPA and had a 4.2 TD: INT Ratio with Welker in the lineup from 2007-2012. When Welker left for Denver in 2013, Brady saw his YPA drop to 6.9 and his TD: INT ratio was only 2.3. This suggests Brady needs great players around him to be great, while other elite QBs elevate their receivers to a higher level.

Why no mention of Welker with Manning, who elevates average players like Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison and DT?

Welker best years:

MIA - 67/687/1

NE - 122/1569/9

DEN - 73/778/10

And I never saw a WR's production measured by YPR, yet to prove that Deion Branch and David Patten were as good out of NE as with Brady in NE, that's the stat they used.

Awesome analysis throughout that piece.

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The hits keep on coming on Brady . . .

Ray Lewis Says the Tuck Rule is the Only Reason We Know Who Tom Brady Is

Ray Lewis is a BIG believer in momentum. That extends to believing that a quarterback benefiting from one call eventually propels that quarterback to throw 50 touchdown passes, lead the league in touchdowns thrice, and get selected to the all-decade team by the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Nothing was stopping that momentum.

CBS Boston has the transcription:


“Listen, not to go all totally out of conscious [i believe he meant ‘context’], but just think about this, Stephen A., honest to God,” Lewis said. “When we — the first time we created something called a tuck rule, it’s the only reason we know — I’m just being honest! — the only reason we know who Tom Brady is, because of a tuck rule! There’s no such thing as a tuck rule! If the ball is in your hand, and I knock it out your hand, whether it’s going backwards, forwards, lateral, sideways, however it’s coming out, that’s a freaking fumble! […]

“They don’t go to that championship game — they don’t go to that championship game if that tuck rule, if that ball is not called a tuck! That’s a fumble!” Lewis shouted. “Charles Woodson made that man clearly fumble the ball and they named it the tuck rule, something that we’ve never heard in today’s game. So now you’ve got to ask yourself: When did the legacy really start?”

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The hits keep on coming on Brady . . .

Ray Lewis Says the Tuck Rule is the Only Reason We Know Who Tom Brady Is

Ray Lewis is a BIG believer in momentum. That extends to believing that a quarterback benefiting from one call eventually propels that quarterback to throw 50 touchdown passes, lead the league in touchdowns thrice, and get selected to the all-decade team by the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Nothing was stopping that momentum.

CBS Boston has the transcription:

“Listen, not to go all totally out of conscious [i believe he meant ‘context’], but just think about this, Stephen A., honest to God,” Lewis said. “When we — the first time we created something called a tuck rule, it’s the only reason we know — I’m just being honest! — the only reason we know who Tom Brady is, because of a tuck rule! There’s no such thing as a tuck rule! If the ball is in your hand, and I knock it out your hand, whether it’s going backwards, forwards, lateral, sideways, however it’s coming out, that’s a freaking fumble! […]

“They don’t go to that championship game — they don’t go to that championship game if that tuck rule, if that ball is not called a tuck! That’s a fumble!” Lewis shouted. “Charles Woodson made that man clearly fumble the ball and they named it the tuck rule, something that we’ve never heard in today’s game. So now you’ve got to ask yourself: When did the legacy really start?”

Ray Lewis was a great football player, but he is a moron. Did that play give them momentum into the super bowl? Maybe. I don't believe in momentum from year to year though. There is too much change. I should take back my moron comment and say, Ray Lewis should be happy that they don't have concussion protocols for being an analyst or he wouldn't have a job.

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The hits keep on coming on Brady . . .

Ray Lewis Says the Tuck Rule is the Only Reason We Know Who Tom Brady Is

Ray Lewis is a BIG believer in momentum. That extends to believing that a quarterback benefiting from one call eventually propels that quarterback to throw 50 touchdown passes, lead the league in touchdowns thrice, and get selected to the all-decade team by the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Nothing was stopping that momentum.

CBS Boston has the transcription:

“Listen, not to go all totally out of conscious [i believe he meant ‘context’], but just think about this, Stephen A., honest to God,” Lewis said. “When we — the first time we created something called a tuck rule, it’s the only reason we know — I’m just being honest! — the only reason we know who Tom Brady is, because of a tuck rule! There’s no such thing as a tuck rule! If the ball is in your hand, and I knock it out your hand, whether it’s going backwards, forwards, lateral, sideways, however it’s coming out, that’s a freaking fumble! […]

“They don’t go to that championship game — they don’t go to that championship game if that tuck rule, if that ball is not called a tuck! That’s a fumble!” Lewis shouted. “Charles Woodson made that man clearly fumble the ball and they named it the tuck rule, something that we’ve never heard in today’s game. So now you’ve got to ask yourself: When did the legacy really start?”

baltimore probably knows who brady is this week

edit: we should ask the english professor what it's called when you stab somebody 5x and they stop breathing.

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The hits keep on coming on Brady . . .

Ray Lewis Says the Tuck Rule is the Only Reason We Know Who Tom Brady Is

Ray Lewis is a BIG believer in momentum. That extends to believing that a quarterback benefiting from one call eventually propels that quarterback to throw 50 touchdown passes, lead the league in touchdowns thrice, and get selected to the all-decade team by the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Nothing was stopping that momentum.

CBS Boston has the transcription:

“Listen, not to go all totally out of conscious [i believe he meant ‘context’], but just think about this, Stephen A., honest to God,” Lewis said. “When we — the first time we created something called a tuck rule, it’s the only reason we know — I’m just being honest! — the only reason we know who Tom Brady is, because of a tuck rule! There’s no such thing as a tuck rule! If the ball is in your hand, and I knock it out your hand, whether it’s going backwards, forwards, lateral, sideways, however it’s coming out, that’s a freaking fumble! […]

“They don’t go to that championship game — they don’t go to that championship game if that tuck rule, if that ball is not called a tuck! That’s a fumble!” Lewis shouted. “Charles Woodson made that man clearly fumble the ball and they named it the tuck rule, something that we’ve never heard in today’s game. So now you’ve got to ask yourself: When did the legacy really start?”

Ray Lewis was a great football player, but he is a moron. Did that play give them momentum into the super bowl? Maybe. I don't believe in momentum from year to year though. There is too much change. I should take back my moron comment and say, Ray Lewis should be happy that they don't have concussion protocols for being an analyst or he wouldn't have a job.

Lewis is such a bitter #####. Brady threw for over 300 yards in a virtual blizzard in that game. Also, the tuck rule drive only allowed them to tie the game and send it into overtime. On the winning overtime drive he was 8 for 8 and drove them to the Raider 5 before they kicked a field goal on third down to win it. Tom Brady was huge that day.

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The hits keep on coming on Brady . . .

Ray Lewis Says the Tuck Rule is the Only Reason We Know Who Tom Brady Is

Ray Lewis is a BIG believer in momentum. That extends to believing that a quarterback benefiting from one call eventually propels that quarterback to throw 50 touchdown passes, lead the league in touchdowns thrice, and get selected to the all-decade team by the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Nothing was stopping that momentum.

CBS Boston has the transcription:

“Listen, not to go all totally out of conscious [i believe he meant ‘context’], but just think about this, Stephen A., honest to God,” Lewis said. “When we — the first time we created something called a tuck rule, it’s the only reason we know — I’m just being honest! — the only reason we know who Tom Brady is, because of a tuck rule! There’s no such thing as a tuck rule! If the ball is in your hand, and I knock it out your hand, whether it’s going backwards, forwards, lateral, sideways, however it’s coming out, that’s a freaking fumble! […]

“They don’t go to that championship game — they don’t go to that championship game if that tuck rule, if that ball is not called a tuck! That’s a fumble!” Lewis shouted. “Charles Woodson made that man clearly fumble the ball and they named it the tuck rule, something that we’ve never heard in today’s game. So now you’ve got to ask yourself: When did the legacy really start?”

Ray Lewis was a great football player, but he is a moron. Did that play give them momentum into the super bowl? Maybe. I don't believe in momentum from year to year though. There is too much change. I should take back my moron comment and say, Ray Lewis should be happy that they don't have concussion protocols for being an analyst or he wouldn't have a job.

Lewis is such a bitter #####. Brady threw for over 300 yards in a virtual blizzard in that game. Also, the tuck rule drive only allowed them to tie the game and send it into overtime. On the winning overtime drive he was 8 for 8 and drove them to the Raider 5 before they kicked a field goal on third down to win it. Tom Brady was huge that day.

I think the point of it is that, if the Raiders get the ball there the Pats don't tie it up then Brady doesn't go on to win the Super Bowl. If Brady doesn't have that Super Bowl (and everyone remembers him blowing the game with a costly fumble) then how much different does the football world view him? I'm guessing that's what he would say if he didn't get smashed in the head for most of his adult life.

I've backed Manning in this thread and Ray might have a point but it doesn't matter. Getting hung up on one call is useless. It happens in every game, every year. You can dispute the call but not the game. There's a couple threads about this years "bad" calls and it's the same thing.

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The hits keep on coming on Brady . . .

Ray Lewis Says the Tuck Rule is the Only Reason We Know Who Tom Brady Is

Ray Lewis is a BIG believer in momentum. That extends to believing that a quarterback benefiting from one call eventually propels that quarterback to throw 50 touchdown passes, lead the league in touchdowns thrice, and get selected to the all-decade team by the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Nothing was stopping that momentum.

CBS Boston has the transcription:

“Listen, not to go all totally out of conscious [i believe he meant ‘context’], but just think about this, Stephen A., honest to God,” Lewis said. “When we — the first time we created something called a tuck rule, it’s the only reason we know — I’m just being honest! — the only reason we know who Tom Brady is, because of a tuck rule! There’s no such thing as a tuck rule! If the ball is in your hand, and I knock it out your hand, whether it’s going backwards, forwards, lateral, sideways, however it’s coming out, that’s a freaking fumble! […]

“They don’t go to that championship game — they don’t go to that championship game if that tuck rule, if that ball is not called a tuck! That’s a fumble!” Lewis shouted. “Charles Woodson made that man clearly fumble the ball and they named it the tuck rule, something that we’ve never heard in today’s game. So now you’ve got to ask yourself: When did the legacy really start?”

Ray Lewis was a great football player, but he is a moron. Did that play give them momentum into the super bowl? Maybe. I don't believe in momentum from year to year though. There is too much change. I should take back my moron comment and say, Ray Lewis should be happy that they don't have concussion protocols for being an analyst or he wouldn't have a job.

Lewis is such a bitter #####. Brady threw for over 300 yards in a virtual blizzard in that game. Also, the tuck rule drive only allowed them to tie the game and send it into overtime. On the winning overtime drive he was 8 for 8 and drove them to the Raider 5 before they kicked a field goal on third down to win it. Tom Brady was huge that day.

I think the point of it is that, if the Raiders get the ball there the Pats don't tie it up then Brady doesn't go on to win the Super Bowl. If Brady doesn't have that Super Bowl (and everyone remembers him blowing the game with a costly fumble) then how much different does the football world view him? I'm guessing that's what he would say if he didn't get smashed in the head for most of his adult life.

I've backed Manning in this thread and Ray might have a point but it doesn't matter. Getting hung up on one call is useless. It happens in every game, every year. You can dispute the call but not the game. There's a couple threads about this years "bad" calls and it's the same thing.

I understand what point he was trying to make. I also understand that it's a dumb point and there's no reason to believe it's true. It's like saying that if Dwight Clark wouldn't have made "the Catch" we wouldn't know who Joe Montana is.

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If Brady were to win another championship, especially if he played well in the Super Bowl against the Seahawks defense, I would probably move him into the Montana tier.

That would certainly be a massive feather in Brady's cap, if he plays well against that Seattle D in the Super Bowl in a few weeks.

If Bill Bellichek had coached Peyton Manning, they'd have about 8 rings right now.

You have to look at best QBs of an era. They are not comparable between eras.

Early days - Sammy Baugh, Otto Graham

60s - Unitas, Dawson, Starr

70s - Bradshaw, Staubach, Tarkenton

80s - Montana, Marino

90s - Elway, Young

00s - Brady, Manning

10s - Rodgers, ?

You cannot leave Favre out of the 90s.

The 10s will likely include Luck and Wilson right there behind Rodgers (using your method of not putting quarterbacks in more than one decade).

I also think you can throw Brees in the 00s even though he isn't on Brady and Manning's level all-time (Brees is probably top 15 all-time, while both PM and TB are top 5).

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I am going to go out on a limb and suggest this guy would vote for Manning over Brady . . .

Tom Brady: The Most Overrated QB of This Generation

http://fantasyknuckleheads.com/tom-brady-the-most-overrated-qb-of-this-generation/?utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=referral

Best part of the article: ( while describing how Brady needs great players to have great stats )

The story is the same for Wes Welker, Brady averaged 8.13 YPA and had a 4.2 TD: INT Ratio with Welker in the lineup from 2007-2012. When Welker left for Denver in 2013, Brady saw his YPA drop to 6.9 and his TD: INT ratio was only 2.3. This suggests Brady needs great players around him to be great, while other elite QBs elevate their receivers to a higher level.

Why no mention of Welker with Manning, who elevates average players like Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison and DT?

Welker best years:

MIA - 67/687/1

NE - 122/1569/9

DEN - 73/778/10

And I never saw a WR's production measured by YPR, yet to prove that Deion Branch and David Patten were as good out of NE as with Brady in NE, that's the stat they used.

Awesome analysis throughout that piece.

I really liked saying Brady is no Brees partly because he doesn't elevate his WRs. And proves it by saying Patten had only 1/2 YPR more with Brady than at NO. He forgot to mention the QB in NO was Brees.

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In the history of the NFL playoffs, all QBs not named Tom Brady have a 3-27 record when they have thrown 50 passes. All QBs named Tom Brady are 3-1.

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NFL football is a manly game played during the winter. Brady is the best bad weather (ie: winter) QB ever, therefore Brady is the best QB ever, and possibly the best manly man in history. He's got it all- and still stays humble.

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In the history of the NFL playoffs, all QBs not named Tom Brady have a 3-27 record when they have thrown 50 passes. All QBs named Tom Brady are 3-1.

awesome stat

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Bernie Kosar, also 1-0. No shame in being third in winning % in this very important stat, though.

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I think it is funny how much of the voting is based on what have you done lately. This is the closet the vote has been in a while.

Brady was ahead in this poll a few months ago. Then bassnbrew bumped it when Brady had started slow and manning was on fire. Then someone else bumped it after manning's playoff loss and it's gone the other way. And bass even came back to say he was wrong, brady is better. Long time manning guy Just Win Baby just put brady a tier above manning.

In 2003 this discussion had started, after brady had a couple rings and manning had better stats. Bradys head to head victory over the Colts in the playoffs helped fuel the debate.

2004 saw manning take a decisive lead when he set an nfl record for touchdowns. But then brady best the Colts again while manning led the Colts to just three points, and people voted for brady and his undefeated playoff record again.

Then in 2005, brady finally lost his first playoff game, and people leaned towards manning. And momentum for manning picked up again in 2006 when the Colts finally won a superbowl - after beating the patriots in the afccg. All the people who had claimed manning would eventually have as many rings as brady seemed vindicated.

Then 2007 the patriots had the record setting undefeated season, and people leaned back towards brady, even after the superbowl loss.

Until 2008, when Brady got hurt in the first game, and manning had an mvp season that ended with yet another first round playoff exit.

And 2009, when manning went to another superbowl, he took a huge lead in the debate, even after the pick six that lost the game.

Then 2010, brady won his second mvp with a ridiculous 36 to 4 td to int ratio. And the scales tipped back, even after the pats lost in the divisional round to the jets. And in 2011, when manning was hurt, the pats wentto another superbowl. Brady took a decisive lead, until it was announced that manning was coming back.

A few bad games out of the gate, and people questioned whether manning would ever get his arm strength back. Then he turned it on and didn't look back. And the 2013 season when he retook the td record and a bunch of others, manning was the decisive leader again. And the first half of this season looked no different.

But another one and done for manning, and another afccg or more for brady, after an elite playoff performance, he's taken almost every vote cast since this most recent bump.

To me that's what makes this rivalry so compelling. I've always backed brady, but the swings back and forth year after year were just incredible, with each setting the bar higher for the other, then watching the other leap over it. It's been awesome watching them both. I think manning comes back and I think he wants to be the definitive goat, but if he's done, I'll be as sad as anyone to see him gone. This has just been too good.

:goodposting:

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Makes me wonder who owns the last remaining win.

Eli

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Fill in that ? with Luck.

Lol at troll saying Manning is questionable 1st ballot.

Thumbs up to the guy who suggested Manning/Bill would have 8 rangs.

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Thumbs up to the guy who suggested Manning/Bill would have 8 rangs.

Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

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Thumbs up to the guy who suggested Manning/Bill would have 8 rangs.

Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

If Brady was on the Colts and then Denver he would be pushing 1000 career touchdown passes and have at least 3 rings.

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Thumbs up to the guy who suggested Manning/Bill would have 8 rangs.

Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

lot of southern accents sound like that

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We literally might never see another QB have a career like this.

Yeah, Manning is pretty awesome.

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Maybe I will never understand this but all of Brady's superbowl wins came in an era that his team was caught cheating. Why does he get credit as the best ever when the team was caught cheating???

Sure sure, say "all teams did it". Fine, but everyone was juicing in baseball but Bonds gets caught. Do you look at him like less of a cheater because "other players did it too"?

People are celebrating this legacy Craft, BB and Brady all have together and it was built off of SB rings that they cheated to achieve.

I guess when the commissioner of the league is the same guy who burns the evidence its tough to draw much attention to this.

I put Brady in the same category as Bonds.

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Maybe I will never understand this but all of Brady's superbowl wins came in an era that his team was caught cheating. Why does he get credit as the best ever when the team was caught cheating???

Sure sure, say "all teams did it". Fine, but everyone was juicing in baseball but Bonds gets caught. Do you look at him like less of a cheater because "other players did it too"?

People are celebrating this legacy Craft, BB and Brady all have together and it was built off of SB rings that they cheated to achieve.

I guess when the commissioner of the league is the same guy who burns the evidence its tough to draw much attention to this.

I put Brady in the same category as Bonds.

Those are some sour grapes.

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Tim Brady without a doubt.

Did he start doing state farm ads with Cliff Paul?

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Maybe I will never understand this but all of Brady's superbowl wins came in an era that his team was caught cheating. Why does he get credit as the best ever when the team was caught cheating???

Sure sure, say "all teams did it". Fine, but everyone was juicing in baseball but Bonds gets caught. Do you look at him like less of a cheater because "other players did it too"?

People are celebrating this legacy Craft, BB and Brady all have together and it was built off of SB rings that they cheated to achieve.

I guess when the commissioner of the league is the same guy who burns the evidence its tough to draw much attention to this.

I put Brady in the same category as Bonds.

Those are some sour grapes.

Maybe I will never understand this but all of Brady's superbowl wins came in an era that his team was caught cheating. Why does he get credit as the best ever when the team was caught cheating???

Sure sure, say "all teams did it". Fine, but everyone was juicing in baseball but Bonds gets caught. Do you look at him like less of a cheater because "other players did it too"?

People are celebrating this legacy Craft, BB and Brady all have together and it was built off of SB rings that they cheated to achieve.

I guess when the commissioner of the league is the same guy who burns the evidence its tough to draw much attention to this.

I put Brady in the same category as Bonds.

dumbest post in a while

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