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Who's better, Manning or Brady?

Who's the better quarterback?  

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2 hours ago, Just Win Baby said:

Carroll has no shot of getting close to him, and the only reason either of the other two is that they have so many more years to coach that it can't be viewed as impossible. But the odds of either doing so are virtually nil.

Yeah, laughing...Carroll is actually a year older than Belichick so I don't think that's happening.  Plus, if you are going to call Belichick a cheater, let's talk about Carroll's reign at USC.  He left them in shambles. 

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4 hours ago, Ghost Rider said:

I'd love to see someone now argue against Belichick being the GOAT.  To me, it's not close.  Five Super Bowl titles in 17 seasons in New England, two other Super Bowl appearances, and four other appearances in the CCG.  And what Hall of Famers has he had on his title-winning teams ?  Brady, probably Vinatieri, and that's probably it.  Contrast that to the Dallas team of the early 90s and the 49er and Steeler dynasties, all of whom had more Hall of Famers that you could shake a stick at. 

He's simply coaching at a different level. Everyone else reacts to changes. They are the copy catters. He makes changes. Once someone figures him out, he changes it up.  He wins with inferior teams but he definitely needs a HOF QB to win SBs with the cast he surrounds the QB with. That's not a knock. He would simply build a powerhouse D if he had a lesser QB.

I was wondering what happened in CLE because I couldn't remember. Well, it was the moron, Art Modell, who fired him after a losing season, which was after their 1st winning season since 1989. You could argue now that him firing Belicheck was worse than him moving the team.

If you hate the Pats, don't forget about Art Modell helped them out.

 

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3 hours ago, garlicduck said:

Yeah, laughing...Carroll is actually a year older than Belichick so I don't think that's happening.  Plus, if you are going to call Belichick a cheater, let's talk about Carroll's reign at USC.  He left them in shambles. 

Yeah, don't know why I included him.  Tomlin has a good chance though (as unlikely as it is for anyone)

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3 minutes ago, FUBAR said:

Yeah, don't know why I included him.  Tomlin has a good chance though (as unlikely as it is for anyone)

I don't think anyone has a good chance, though not sure what unlikely good chance means exactly. People forget how accomplished Belichick was as an assistant coach, and I think they also forget how long he coached under Parcells and how much that likely influenced him.

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4 minutes ago, Just Win Baby said:

I don't think anyone has a good chance, though not sure what unlikely good chance means exactly. People forget how accomplished Belichick was as an assistant coach, and I think they also forget how long he coached under Parcells and how much that likely influenced him.

Perhaps "best chance of anyone" is a better way to put it. 

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7 hours ago, Ghost Rider said:

I'd love to see someone now argue against Belichick being the GOAT.  To me, it's not close.  Five Super Bowl titles in 17 seasons in New England, two other Super Bowl appearances, and four other appearances in the CCG.  And what Hall of Famers has he had on his title-winning teams ?  Brady, probably Vinatieri, and that's probably it.  Contrast that to the Dallas team of the early 90s and the 49er and Steeler dynasties, all of whom had more Hall of Famers that you could shake a stick at. 

Basically, yeah.  I literally don't understand how NE is able to win with the patchwork of rosters that they've constructed while nobody else has figured this out.  Honestly, the Belichick era pokes a huge hole in my theory that sports is the ultimate meritocracy, because he seems to be three steps ahead of all of his colleagues and all of the GMs.  Somebody will overpay for Jimmy G and he will go on to be mediocre for whoever.  I strongly suspect that Brady would have been out of the league a long time ago had it not been for Belichick.  It seems like other teams would learn, but they systematically don't. 

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8 hours ago, Ghost Rider said:

I'd love to see someone now argue against Belichick being the GOAT.  To me, it's not close.  Five Super Bowl titles in 17 seasons in New England, two other Super Bowl appearances, and four other appearances in the CCG.  And what Hall of Famers has he had on his title-winning teams ?  Brady, probably Vinatieri, and that's probably it.  Contrast that to the Dallas team of the early 90s and the 49er and Steeler dynasties, all of whom had more Hall of Famers that you could shake a stick at. 

I think BB has two other rings as DC of the NYG.

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19 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Basically, yeah.  I literally don't understand how NE is able to win with the patchwork of rosters that they've constructed while nobody else has figured this out.  Honestly, the Belichick era pokes a huge hole in my theory that sports is the ultimate meritocracy, because he seems to be three steps ahead of all of his colleagues and all of the GMs.  Somebody will overpay for Jimmy G and he will go on to be mediocre for whoever.  I strongly suspect that Brady would have been out of the league a long time ago had it not been for Belichick.  It seems like other teams would learn, but they systematically don't. 

Its actually funny now that 10 years ago the talk was the Patriot's "window was closing soon" and the "blueprint for how to beat the Patriots was out there".

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As I posted in the Patriots or BB threads, Belichick has 7 rings and has coached in 10 SBs (8 with NE and 2 with NYG). 

One of the big reasons they win is they get lots of players to play at the Pats price, not the players. They could be sitting in $65 million and with a straight face tell a player they can't pay them more than $1.5 million. They like rookies, undrafted free agents, guys on their third deals, and people that value winning more than money. Brady consistently has played for millions less than market value. 

So if teams want to copy the NE model, they wouldn't sign guys to $100M deals. For guys not named Brady or Gronk, they will wait until a player's contract is over before they negotiate. That may cost them some players but BB wants his guys to play hard for 4 years and then get paid and earn it. Edelman has been playing for $4 million a year which is outright cheap. This also always the Pats to have depth across the roster and having more guys to rotate in that can play  

Not many other teams can emulate that, as players want to get paid. 

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On ‎2‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 8:49 AM, bostonfred said:

I'm just trying to understand how this is a top ten wide receiving corps or even pass catching group.

His wide receivers were 13th, 50th, 86th and 103rd in the NFL in receiving yards this year. And the one who was tops on that list plays the slot.  Hogan was second on the team with 680 yards and 4 touchdowns, both career bests. He's 28 and in 4 years had 1,639 receiving yards.  Malcolm Mitchell explored onto the scene with 32 catches for 401 yards and 4 touchdowns.  Danny Amendola's career bests are 689 yards and 3 touchdowns, both in St. Louis.

I know, but Gronk. He's obviously their real number one.  Not this year. He had 540 yards and 3 touchdowns.  After Gronk got hurt, Brady averaged over 315 yards a game with 23 touchdowns in ten Gronkless games 

Martellus Bennett contributed 701 yards. He's good - that was 9th in the league among tight ends - but hardly dominant.  Paired with Gronk? Best in the league. On his own and limping for most of the second half?  He's good. 

But would anyone expect a quarterback whose leading receivers were Julian Edelman and Martellus Bennett to come in second in MVP voting and throw for 1237 yards and 7 touchdowns in three playoff games? including 466 in the Superbowl?  

Did anyone consider Hogan good this year before he blew up against the Steelers?  Or Amendola before he made a couple clutch catches in the Superbowl?  Or Malcolm Mitchell outside of a brief 4 game stretch where he put up fantasy numbers because he caught almost 66 yards a game with 4 touchdowns?  Or James White, who averaged 35 yards a game? 

Top ten? 

 

It's all an opinion thing of course.  But Edelman is severely underrated.  I think it was Michael Irvin who said he was the best WR in the league.  He might not be that, but he gets open, makes hard catches, clutch catches and gets yards after the catch.  If teams had it to do over again he'd get a whole lot of offers as a free agent.  Hogan played with lesser quarterbacking prior to joining the Pats and has been one of the faster guys to make it into Brady's trusted players.  Amendola is a solid WR who often is overshadowed by all of the other weapons and Mitchell looks like the real deal so far.

We're talking about a team was #2 in YAC they got 6.34 while Atlanta got 6.37.  They were also #4 in the league in not dropping passes.

I'm a Pats fan, haven't missed a Pats game since before Hugh Millen.  And it's not insulting to Brady to say he has weapons around him right now.  This is outside of the Moss/Welker years the best WR group he has ever had IMO.

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10 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I strongly suspect that Brady would have been out of the league a long time ago had it not been for Belichick.  

You could also make the argument that Belichick would probably not still be with the Pats if they never drafted Brady. He definitely would not have the 5 rings with them. Zero is more likely.

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9 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

As I posted in the Patriots or BB threads, Belichick has 7 rings and has coached in 10 SBs (8 with NE and 2 with NYG). 

One of the big reasons they win is they get lots of players to play at the Pats price, not the players. They could be sitting in $65 million and with a straight face tell a player they can't pay them more than $1.5 million. They like rookies, undrafted free agents, guys on their third deals, and people that value winning more than money. Brady consistently has played for millions less than market value. 

So if teams want to copy the NE model, they wouldn't sign guys to $100M deals. For guys not named Brady or Gronk, they will wait until a player's contract is over before they negotiate. That may cost them some players but BB wants his guys to play hard for 4 years and then get paid and earn it. Edelman has been playing for $4 million a year which is outright cheap. This also always the Pats to have depth across the roster and having more guys to rotate in that can play  

Not many other teams can emulate that, as players want to get paid. 

The #1 reason they get players to play for the Pats price is because they have Brady. Once he's gone, that business model doesn't work anymore. 

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10 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

As I posted in the Patriots or BB threads, Belichick has 7 rings and has coached in 10 SBs (8 with NE and 2 with NYG). 

One of the big reasons they win is they get lots of players to play at the Pats price, not the players. They could be sitting in $65 million and with a straight face tell a player they can't pay them more than $1.5 million. They like rookies, undrafted free agents, guys on their third deals, and people that value winning more than money. Brady consistently has played for millions less than market value.

So if teams want to copy the NE model, they wouldn't sign guys to $100M deals. For guys not named Brady or Gronk, they will wait until a player's contract is over before they negotiate. That may cost them some players but BB wants his guys to play hard for 4 years and then get paid and earn it. Edelman has been playing for $4 million a year which is outright cheap. This also always the Pats to have depth across the roster and having more guys to rotate in that can play  

Not many other teams can emulate that, as players want to get paid. 

Basically they want guys who value the team and want to win.  They have the coaching staff to develop these players in the system.  So simple and yet so difficult.  

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4 hours ago, TwinTurbo said:

The #1 reason they get players to play for the Pats price is because they have Brady. Once he's gone, that business model doesn't work anymore. 

Once he's gone I expect Belicheck to be gone as well. I expect them to retire at the same time. Been saying that for about 5 years now. A career ending injury and he probably doesn't because that would be pretty obvious.

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15 hours ago, DropKick said:

Its actually funny now that 10 years ago the talk was the Patriot's "window was closing soon" and the "blueprint for how to beat the Patriots was out there".

Falcons had the blueprint and Shanahan ####ed it all up. Now, Belicheck is analyzing the 1st half failure in the SB and what worked for ATL, probably won't work next time.

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threads like this makes me hope Tom stays in the league another 3-4 years, throws 4,000-4,500 yards a year and 25+ TD's and puts the records so far away that nobody will ever reach them

because Tom is that damn good

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