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bostonfred

Who's better, Manning or Brady?

Who's the better quarterback?  

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Why do we have to rehash this so much? We all know deep down in our brain's heart the one true answer. Going into this game neutral parties weren't even talking about Manning and Brady they were talking about the talent differential, about how Mannings weapons were unstoppable, about how their defense was so much better than the Pats - the Broncos just got shat on by the world beaters Brandon Lafell, Julian Edelman and Danny 'White Chocolate' Amendola and three rookie olinemen.

They've been saying the same things for years, Manning has always had so much more talent around him and the Brady led Pats just win games. Nothing has changed.

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FTR, yay, Brady won the last game so I guess that makes him the best..................

There both great.

If one of them can manage to win another SB or two (or even get to another 1 or 2) then maybe something can definitively be settled (not bloody likely), for now it is more lather, rinse, repeat.......

Kind of like Marino/Montana if Marino had won a Super Bowl. I think Peyton wins another ring he's the guy. Otherwise, just a matter of opinion. Brady wins another that might cement it too.

Yeah I see some similarities between Manning\Marino and Brady\Montana.

Not saying anyone is better than the other, just Marino and Manning being machine like passers and Brady\Montana being more provisional.

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Guest General Tso

Just saw Manning's post game presser and he basically said he stunk today. That's a gross exaggeration on his part, but it's a classy way of taking the blame and deflecting negative attention away from is teammates, particularly the defense.

I respect this guy more and more. An incredible Quarterback, a great leader, and a classy person. Hard to root against him.

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The only real way to end this debate is to invent a time machine, go back in time and make sure Brady ends up on the Colts/Broncos, and Manning is on the Patriots. See which quarterback, if either could, duplicate or beat the stats, wins, and rings of the other. Since we can't do that, we will all have our favorite for whatever reason. We should enjoy it though I can't believe these 2 are going to dominate the AFC much more after this year or maybe next year.

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I hate this debate. I'm a patriots fan but I can't say one is better than the other, both have been in very different offensive situations through ought the years. Can we just settle with them being the greatest of this era.

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I'd say Manning. He didn't get the benefit of spygate.

And Big Ben is better than both of them right now.

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I vote for Manning despite the L today. The fact of the matter is that he runs the show on offense in a way that Brady never has and never will. Brady without Belicheck simply wouldn't be as successful. It's possible that the coach + QB combo will always be more successful than a pure field general QB, but as long as we're only comparing QBs, I think Manning is the one I'd rather have. I'm not taking anything away from Brady here; he's a HOFer as well.

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The fact of the matter is that he runs the show on offense in a way that Brady never has and never will.

Explain this.

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The fact of the matter is that he runs the show on offense in a way that Brady never has and never will.

Explain this.

It's pretty clear to me that Manning calls all the shots on offense, whereas Belicheck is pulling the plays out of his own magic hat most of the time for the Pats. Do you disagree?

Edit: To put it another way: Manning has shown himself to be elite regardless of who his coach is. Brady hasn't had that opportunity, and the way the Pats run things, it's entirely possible that his success is owed in part to how Belicheck calls the games. I do not believe that Brady has a level of control over the offense that is comparable to the degree to which Manning runs things every game.

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The fact of the matter is that he runs the show on offense in a way that Brady never has and never will.

Explain this.

It's pretty clear to me that Manning calls all the shots on offense, whereas Belicheck is pulling the plays out of his own magic hat most of the time for the Pats. Do you disagree?

Yes I do. BB has little to no input on the offensive play calling. While I agree that Peyton spends the super majority of his time being his own offensive coordinator, Brady has and does just as much at the line as Manning does - and the no huddle is all Brady. Maybe if Peyton didn't have to control every facet of his offense, he wouldn't make such glaring mistakes under pressure.

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The fact of the matter is that he runs the show on offense in a way that Brady never has and never will.

Explain this.

It's pretty clear to me that Manning calls all the shots on offense, whereas Belicheck is pulling the plays out of his own magic hat most of the time for the Pats. Do you disagree?

Maybe if Peyton didn't have to control every facet of his offense, he wouldn't make such glaring mistakes under pressure.

Totally possible.

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FTR, yay, Brady won the last game so I guess that makes him the best..................

There both great.

If one of them can manage to win another SB or two (or even get to another 1 or 2) then maybe something can definitively be settled (not bloody likely), for now it is more lather, rinse, repeat.......

Kind of like Marino/Montana if Marino had won a Super Bowl. I think Peyton wins another ring he's the guy. Otherwise, just a matter of opinion. Brady wins another that might cement it too.

Fantasy wise it's Manning...Real life it's this. Personally I think Manning is better and Brady is more of a system QB that has great Coaching. As of now you can argue either way but I think Manning gets a ring this year and cements himself as the best QB of this generation and arguably the best ever. If this game was played in Denver I think things would have been different.

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FTR, yay, Brady won the last game so I guess that makes him the best..................

There both great.

If one of them can manage to win another SB or two (or even get to another 1 or 2) then maybe something can definitively be settled (not bloody likely), for now it is more lather, rinse, repeat.......

Kind of like Marino/Montana if Marino had won a Super Bowl. I think Peyton wins another ring he's the guy. Otherwise, just a matter of opinion. Brady wins another that might cement it too.

Fantasy wise it's Manning...Real life it's this. Personally I think Manning is better and Brady is more of a system QB that has great Coaching. As of now you can argue either way but I think Manning gets a ring this year and cements himself as the best QB of this generation and arguably the best ever. If this game was played in Denver I think things would have been different.

Very possible, but it wasn't a close game. Much like the AFC championship wasn't.

The next 3 games will be in Denver, so there's a real chance Peyton will never play in Foxboro again.

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The fact of the matter is that he runs the show on offense in a way that Brady never has and never will.

Explain this.

He has never seen a Patriots game

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FTR, yay, Brady won the last game so I guess that makes him the best..................

There both great.

If one of them can manage to win another SB or two (or even get to another 1 or 2) then maybe something can definitively be settled (not bloody likely), for now it is more lather, rinse, repeat.......

Kind of like Marino/Montana if Marino had won a Super Bowl. I think Peyton wins another ring he's the guy. Otherwise, just a matter of opinion. Brady wins another that might cement it too.

Fantasy wise it's Manning...Real life it's this. Personally I think Manning is better and Brady is more of a system QB that has great Coaching. As of now you can argue either way but I think Manning gets a ring this year and cements himself as the best QB of this generation and arguably the best ever. If this game was played in Denver I think things would have been different.

This line gets me every time. :lmao:

Which system is that? The run heavy short pass system of the early 2000s? The move the ball any way possible system of the Doug Gabriel/Reche Caldwell era? The vertical threat Moss era? The 2 TE system with Gronk & the killer? Or the current all new receivers "system"?

The "Brady is a system QB" is one of the most laughable characterizations of Brady's career. New England's personnel philosophy has created skill position groupings that have VERY different skill sets from year to year. The offense morphs to utilize the available skillset of the players they have. The only system I see in NE is Brady being capable of shifting his offensive system to fit the personnel as well as any QB of the modern era.

Some of that is coaching, and some of it is Brady's ability execute different offensive schemes at a high level. But to put Brady's success on the NE system is, IMO, getting it backwards. NE can manage their personnel decisions and bring in the types of players they do because they have a QB than can make it work.

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FTR, yay, Brady won the last game so I guess that makes him the best..................

There both great.

If one of them can manage to win another SB or two (or even get to another 1 or 2) then maybe something can definitively be settled (not bloody likely), for now it is more lather, rinse, repeat.......

Kind of like Marino/Montana if Marino had won a Super Bowl. I think Peyton wins another ring he's the guy. Otherwise, just a matter of opinion. Brady wins another that might cement it too.

Fantasy wise it's Manning...Real life it's this. Personally I think Manning is better and Brady is more of a system QB that has great Coaching. As of now you can argue either way but I think Manning gets a ring this year and cements himself as the best QB of this generation and arguably the best ever. If this game was played in Denver I think things would have been different.

This line gets me every time. :lmao:

Which system is that? The run heavy short pass system of the early 2000s? The move the ball any way possible system of the Doug Gabriel/Reche Caldwell era? The vertical threat Moss era? The 2 TE system with Gronk & the killer? Or the current all new receivers "system"?

The "Brady is a system QB" is one of the most laughable characterizations of Brady's career. New England's personnel philosophy has created skill position groupings that have VERY different skill sets from year to year. The offense morphs to utilize the available skillset of the players they have. The only system I see in NE is Brady being capable of shifting his offensive system to fit the personnel as well as any QB of the modern era.

Some of that is coaching, and some of it is Brady's ability execute different offensive schemes at a high level. But to put Brady's success on the NE system is, IMO, getting it backwards. NE can manage their personnel decisions and bring in the types of players they do because they have a QB than can make it work.

:goodposting:

I can't recall a QB that has been more versatile in terms of playing in different systems, and Brady has excelled at all of them. As for giving BB credit, lets not forget that Bill coached 5 years at Cleveland, had a losing overall record, and only had 1 winning season out of 5. Manning seems like the type of player that gets smaller as the moment gets bigger. There are several QBs I would take over Manning to win a big game. Peyton's super bowl playoff run was largely won by his defense as Manning threw 3 TDs and 7 INTs in the 2006s playoffs, resulting in his only super bowl win.

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as much as it pains me to say, I'm going with Brady.

I don't like the concept of judging QB's on winning games alone - that ignores the contributions of the 52 other players on the team. in the past, I've made the case that you should judge a QB on the basis of how many points his team scores - if a QB leads the team to the 1 yard line and the FB punches it in, well that's a good thing for the QB, you shouldn't look at that differently than if the QB hit a back-corner fade. so, I've argued that the best QB's are the ones running high-scoring offenses.

However, after a year of Tebow and a couple of years of Manning, I've come to appreciate other aspects of QB'ing, and I have a better understanding of complimentary football. What happens on offense can definitely effect the defense, so it's really tough to come up with an empirical metric to say whom is better. Because, at the end of the day, all that matters is getting the W, and so I'm left with looking at wins/losses, but I don't like it much. Brady has a much higher win percentage than Manning, and much higher than

I wanted to make the case that Brady has has benefited from better coaching and defense (which I will argue he has). I wanted to show that Manning has won more shoot-outs than Brady - the idea was that Brady has won more low-scoring games, and therefore most of his wins are attributable to the NE defense and Bill Belichick.

Here's my question: looking at the entirety of these guy's regular season careers, who has won more games where there defense has given up 24 points (current NFL scoring average is 23.3 ppg)? The answer is Brady, and it's not really close. Manning is 40-63 (0.388), and Brady is 36-36 (0.500).

I was surprised at how low both numbers were, so I compared to some contemporary QB's and recent HoFers. Mannings numbers, while low, are actually really good in comparison.

w l percentagemanning 40 63 0.388brady 36 36 0.500favre 33 74 0.308montana 21 22 0.488marino 23 64 0.264brees 27 61 0.307rodgers 15 21 0.417elway 19 47 0.288young 9 30 0.231aikman 6 37 0.140

Of the QB's I looked at, only Joe Montana and Aaron Rodgers have a better win percentage in shootouts than Manning, and none more than Brady.

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Brady-time is a real thing, many of us have gotten to witness it several times the two minute offense on the comeback is ridiculous.

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Brady. Better when it counts. More rings. Supermodel wife. Only place Manning beats Brady is talent level of supporting cast.

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as much as it pains me to say, I'm going with Brady.

I don't like the concept of judging QB's on winning games alone - that ignores the contributions of the 52 other players on the team. in the past, I've made the case that you should judge a QB on the basis of how many points his team scores - if a QB leads the team to the 1 yard line and the FB punches it in, well that's a good thing for the QB, you shouldn't look at that differently than if the QB hit a back-corner fade. so, I've argued that the best QB's are the ones running high-scoring offenses.

However, after a year of Tebow and a couple of years of Manning, I've come to appreciate other aspects of QB'ing, and I have a better understanding of complimentary football. What happens on offense can definitely effect the defense, so it's really tough to come up with an empirical metric to say whom is better. Because, at the end of the day, all that matters is getting the W, and so I'm left with looking at wins/losses, but I don't like it much. Brady has a much higher win percentage than Manning, and much higher than

I wanted to make the case that Brady has has benefited from better coaching and defense (which I will argue he has). I wanted to show that Manning has won more shoot-outs than Brady - the idea was that Brady has won more low-scoring games, and therefore most of his wins are attributable to the NE defense and Bill Belichick.

Here's my question: looking at the entirety of these guy's regular season careers, who has won more games where there defense has given up 24 points (current NFL scoring average is 23.3 ppg)? The answer is Brady, and it's not really close. Manning is 40-63 (0.388), and Brady is 36-36 (0.500).

I was surprised at how low both numbers were, so I compared to some contemporary QB's and recent HoFers. Mannings numbers, while low, are actually really good in comparison.

w l percentagemanning 40 63 0.388brady 36 36 0.500favre 33 74 0.308montana 21 22 0.488marino 23 64 0.264brees 27 61 0.307rodgers 15 21 0.417elway 19 47 0.288young 9 30 0.231aikman 6 37 0.140

Of the QB's I looked at, only Joe Montana and Aaron Rodgers have a better win percentage in shootouts than Manning, and none more than Brady.

Huh? What are you trying to show here?

Is the W/L above in games where the opposition scored 24+ points? If it is then:

I dont see how this is relevant at all. If Brady on average has his defence give up 28 points on average and Manning has his defence give up 35 points on average in the stat above doesn't that throw away any point you are trying to prove?

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Brady. Better when it counts. More rings. Supermodel wife. Only place Manning beats Brady is talent level of supporting cast.

I think the two are a wash but I am not sure you can not say Brady doesn't have a great surround cast over the years. They always seem to have a pretty good O-Line although not as good as Manning's but Brady had both Randy Moss and now Gronk who have put up some crazy numbers. Now this could be from Brady being so good or the fact that these are two of the most gifted athletes in the last 20 years.... Just look at the difference between what seems to be 100% Gronk and 50% Gronk....

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Brady. Better when it counts. More rings. Supermodel wife. Only place Manning beats Brady is talent level of supporting cast.

I think the two are a wash but I am not sure you can not say Brady doesn't have a great surround cast over the years. They always seem to have a pretty good O-Line although not as good as Manning's but Brady had both Randy Moss and now Gronk who have put up some crazy numbers. Now this could be from Brady being so good or the fact that these are two of the most gifted athletes in the last 20 years.... Just look at the difference between what seems to be 100% Gronk and 50% Gronk....

Brady has had some nice pieces. He's had a stellar OLine a few times (for a 10 year run) and yes he's had Moss and Gronk at their best. But with all the offensive firepower Peyton has had over the years you'd think he'd have a few more rings. He has the records, but Brady has had the most important things at the most important times. It's close but it's Brady.

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as much as it pains me to say, I'm going with Brady.

I don't like the concept of judging QB's on winning games alone - that ignores the contributions of the 52 other players on the team. in the past, I've made the case that you should judge a QB on the basis of how many points his team scores - if a QB leads the team to the 1 yard line and the FB punches it in, well that's a good thing for the QB, you shouldn't look at that differently than if the QB hit a back-corner fade. so, I've argued that the best QB's are the ones running high-scoring offenses.

However, after a year of Tebow and a couple of years of Manning, I've come to appreciate other aspects of QB'ing, and I have a better understanding of complimentary football. What happens on offense can definitely effect the defense, so it's really tough to come up with an empirical metric to say whom is better. Because, at the end of the day, all that matters is getting the W, and so I'm left with looking at wins/losses, but I don't like it much. Brady has a much higher win percentage than Manning, and much higher than

I wanted to make the case that Brady has has benefited from better coaching and defense (which I will argue he has). I wanted to show that Manning has won more shoot-outs than Brady - the idea was that Brady has won more low-scoring games, and therefore most of his wins are attributable to the NE defense and Bill Belichick.

Here's my question: looking at the entirety of these guy's regular season careers, who has won more games where there defense has given up 24 points (current NFL scoring average is 23.3 ppg)? The answer is Brady, and it's not really close. Manning is 40-63 (0.388), and Brady is 36-36 (0.500).

I was surprised at how low both numbers were, so I compared to some contemporary QB's and recent HoFers. Mannings numbers, while low, are actually really good in comparison.

w l percentagemanning 40 63 0.388brady 36 36 0.500favre 33 74 0.308montana 21 22 0.488marino 23 64 0.264brees 27 61 0.307rodgers 15 21 0.417elway 19 47 0.288young 9 30 0.231aikman 6 37 0.140

Of the QB's I looked at, only Joe Montana and Aaron Rodgers have a better win percentage in shootouts than Manning, and none more than Brady.

Huh? What are you trying to show here?

Is the W/L above in games where the opposition scored 24+ points? If it is then:

I dont see how this is relevant at all. If Brady on average has his defence give up 28 points on average and Manning has his defence give up 35 points on average in the stat above doesn't that throw away any point you are trying to prove?

not really. The average opposition score in games evaluated above aren't all that different amongst the QB's evaluated.

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There is no question, Brady and Manning both elevate their surrounding talent. But there is no debate, Manning has always had more and better weapons, its just how the respective organizations chose to acquire talent.

The Pats have made it work though, to great effect. 2013 looked like the biggest mess of a season ever for example, a hurt FA acquisition, a ST player converted to full time WR and three rookie WRs - which never had a week where two of them were healthy at the same time. Had one of the worst defenses in the league and walked into the AFCCG to get #### on.

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There is no question, Brady and Manning both elevate their surrounding talent. But there is no debate, Manning has always had more and better weapons, its just how the respective organizations chose to acquire talent.

depends on what you consider a weapon. I'd make the case that Belichick is waaaay better than any coach Manning has ever played for, in terms of putting together different offensive strategies every season, game planning, and in-game management. it makes a big difference.

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It's a pretty simple answer.

Brady, and it's not even close. Stats do matter, but wins matter more.

This is what ruins these kinds of threads. Of course it's close.

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Brady has put out some playoff duds the last few years but my opinion on this debate has not changed over past few seasons.

Manning is the best regular season QB of all time but Brady is the better all-time QB because while he may serve up some postseason duds he does not so frequently shrink in big games like Peyton. And even if you want to argue Peyton does not shrink in big playoff games, he certainly does not rise to the occasion either. No better stat sums up the difference in Peyton in the regular season vs postseason IMO than 4th quarter comeback wins. He's the all time regular season leader. He's tied for #23 in postseason with a grand total of one.

Neither is the best QB in the NFL or has been for several years and I can't help but wonder if every year the media gets into a frenzy over this matchup if Aaron Rodgers is not at least a little bit peeved.

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It's a pretty simple answer.

Brady, and it's not even close. Stats do matter, but wins matter more.

13 of Manning's regular season 75 losses were his rookie year on a terrible team. In fact, 32 of those losses were in his first 4 years on a Colts's team with a lousy defense (average of #22 in points allowed).

Since then he's had a winning percentage of 76.6% (141-43) compared to Brady's career of 77.5% (155-45) with vastly better defenses - the Patriots under Brady never ranked lower than #17 in points allowed. 10 times Brady had a top 10 defense - Peyton only 6 (5 with the Colts and 1 with the Broncos).

Brady is lucky as hell to have been drafted by Belichick's Patriots.

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Brady has put out some playoff duds the last few years but my opinion on this debate has not changed over past few seasons.

Manning is the best regular season QB of all time but Brady is the better all-time QB because while he may serve up some postseason duds he does not so frequently shrink in big games like Peyton. And even if you want to argue Peyton does not shrink in big playoff games, he certainly does not rise to the occasion either. No better stat sums up the difference in Peyton in the regular season vs postseason IMO than 4th quarter comeback wins. He's the all time regular season leader. He's tied for #23 in postseason with a grand total of one.

Neither is the best QB in the NFL or has been for several years and I can't help but wonder if every year the media gets into a frenzy over this matchup if Aaron Rodgers is not at least a little bit peeved.

It's a lot easier to make a 4th quarter comeback when you have a good defense.

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Rodgers and Brees are both studs, but there has yet to be a season where I said "right now Aaron Rodgers (or Brees) is better than Peyton and Brady right now." it just hasn't happened.

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Rodgers and Brees are both studs, but there has yet to be a season where I said "right now Aaron Rodgers (or Brees) is better than Peyton and Brady right now." it just hasn't happened.

Rodgers in 2011? I can easily can Rodgers has been better than Brady since then.

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Rodgers and Brees are both studs, but there has yet to be a season where I said "right now Aaron Rodgers (or Brees) is better than Peyton and Brady right now." it just hasn't happened.

Rodgers in 2011? I can easily can Rodgers has been better than Brady since then.

The 2011 Pats were a better offense than the 2007 Pats.

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Any non-Michigan fans wanna weigh in? :)

Just trying to think of a top 5 QB who came up small so often when it matters most. I don't mean top 5 as it's now defined, I'm including anybody who was in the top 5 since 1978 (when the coverage rules dramatically and inalterably changed football).

The SB pick six on what everyone assumed was the game tying/winning drive, in a vacuum, would be an unduly harsh assessment of the greatest stat padder this side of Wilt Chamberlain. But taken in the context of Peyton's many other near misses, it is perhaps emblematic of his true legacy.

Manning is almost surely the greatest to ever play the position. But if he doesn't win another ring that'll be a pretty hollow achievement.

Favre had some epic playoff collapses.

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Any non-Michigan fans wanna weigh in? :)

Just trying to think of a top 5 QB who came up small so often when it matters most. I don't mean top 5 as it's now defined, I'm including anybody who was in the top 5 since 1978 (when the coverage rules dramatically and inalterably changed football).

The SB pick six on what everyone assumed was the game tying/winning drive, in a vacuum, would be an unduly harsh assessment of the greatest stat padder this side of Wilt Chamberlain. But taken in the context of Peyton's many other near misses, it is perhaps emblematic of his true legacy.

Manning is almost surely the greatest to ever play the position. But if he doesn't win another ring that'll be a pretty hollow achievement.

Favre had some epic playoff collapses.

That's a good one. Six picks in one playoff game IIRC. Though I think he was more of a top ten all-time fringe top five, that's actually a good comparison.

Peyton is amazing to watch, I've never been a fan or a hater, but enjoy watching him. I never really bought into the choker label or people knocking him down for being great in the regular season and less so in the playoffs. But my opinion about him changed a lot after Super Bowl XLIV. Probably not fair to say so, but I just don't think you can be the GoAT when you throw a Sanchez at the biggest moment of your career.

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It's a pretty simple answer.

Brady, and it's not even close. Stats do matter, but wins matter more.

13 of Manning's regular season 75 losses were his rookie year on a terrible team. In fact, 32 of those losses were in his first 4 years on a Colts's team with a lousy defense (average of #22 in points allowed).

Since then he's had a winning percentage of 76.6% (141-43) compared to Brady's career of 77.5% (155-45) with vastly better defenses - the Patriots under Brady never ranked lower than #17 in points allowed. 10 times Brady had a top 10 defense - Peyton only 6 (5 with the Colts and 1 with the Broncos).

Brady is lucky as hell to have been drafted by Belichick's Patriots.

Some numbers:

Games under 24 points given up:

Manning - 141-18 (.887) (2 losses in first season on Colts would be .898)

Brady - 134-13 (.912)

Game of 24+ points given up:

Manning - 43-69 (.384) (11 losses in first season on Colts would be .425)

Brady - 39-41 (.488)

Times scoring more than 24+ points:

Manning - 166 of 272 (61%)

Brady - 139 of 228 (61%)

Average points allowed by team:

Manning - 21.5

Brady - 18.8

If the team does give up 24 points what is the average they normally give up:

Manning - 30.7 (6% more PPG given up when allowing 24+ points)

Brady - 28.9

Numbers show these two are very very close. When you consider after throwing out Manning's rookie season vs Brady coming into a playoff contender its just ever so slight of a margin.

Again I see both as pretty much equal, if I had a bad team I was trying to turn around I would take Manning in his prime. If I had a good team who just kept falling short I would take Brady in his prime. I feel that Bellichek plays a lot into Brady's success but since I dont know for sure you gotta think Brady just has better ability to deal with the spotlight of big games.

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Any non-Michigan fans wanna weigh in? :)

Just trying to think of a top 5 QB who came up small so often when it matters most. I don't mean top 5 as it's now defined, I'm including anybody who was in the top 5 since 1978 (when the coverage rules dramatically and inalterably changed football).

The SB pick six on what everyone assumed was the game tying/winning drive, in a vacuum, would be an unduly harsh assessment of the greatest stat padder this side of Wilt Chamberlain. But taken in the context of Peyton's many other near misses, it is perhaps emblematic of his true legacy.

Manning is almost surely the greatest to ever play the position. But if he doesn't win another ring that'll be a pretty hollow achievement.

Favre had some epic playoff collapses.

That's a good one. Six picks in one playoff game IIRC. Though I think he was more of a top ten all-time fringe top five, that's actually a good comparison.

Peyton is amazing to watch, I've never been a fan or a hater, but enjoy watching him. I never really bought into the choker label or people knocking him down for being great in the regular season and less so in the playoffs. But my opinion about him changed a lot after Super Bowl XLIV. Probably not fair to say so, but I just don't think you can be the GoAT when you throw a Sanchez at the biggest moment of your career.

He made a bad throw, it happens. :shrug:

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Peyton injured, Colts go from 10-6 to 2-14.

Brady injured, Patriots go from 16-0 to 11-5.

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Any non-Michigan fans wanna weigh in? :)

Just trying to think of a top 5 QB who came up small so often when it matters most. I don't mean top 5 as it's now defined, I'm including anybody who was in the top 5 since 1978 (when the coverage rules dramatically and inalterably changed football).

The SB pick six on what everyone assumed was the game tying/winning drive, in a vacuum, would be an unduly harsh assessment of the greatest stat padder this side of Wilt Chamberlain. But taken in the context of Peyton's many other near misses, it is perhaps emblematic of his true legacy.

Manning is almost surely the greatest to ever play the position. But if he doesn't win another ring that'll be a pretty hollow achievement.

Favre had some epic playoff collapses.

That's a good one. Six picks in one playoff game IIRC. Though I think he was more of a top ten all-time fringe top five, that's actually a good comparison.

Peyton is amazing to watch, I've never been a fan or a hater, but enjoy watching him. I never really bought into the choker label or people knocking him down for being great in the regular season and less so in the playoffs. But my opinion about him changed a lot after Super Bowl XLIV. Probably not fair to say so, but I just don't think you can be the GoAT when you throw a Sanchez at the biggest moment of your career.

He made a bad throw, it happens. :shrug:

often

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Guest General Tso

Brady. Better when it counts. More rings. Supermodel wife. Only place Manning beats Brady is talent level of supporting cast.

I think the two are a wash but I am not sure you can not say Brady doesn't have a great surround cast over the years. They always seem to have a pretty good O-Line although not as good as Manning's but Brady had both Randy Moss and now Gronk who have put up some crazy numbers. Now this could be from Brady being so good or the fact that these are two of the most gifted athletes in the last 20 years.... Just look at the difference between what seems to be 100% Gronk and 50% Gronk....

Brady has had some nice pieces. He's had a stellar OLine a few times (for a 10 year run) and yes he's had Moss and Gronk at their best. But with all the offensive firepower Peyton has had over the years you'd think he'd have a few more rings. He has the records, but Brady has had the most important things at the most important times. It's close but it's Brady.
It has become urban legend that Brady had Moss at his peak. Brady resurrected Moss, who was coming off a couple of dreadful years in Oakland. There were a lot of fans in these parts who hated the acquisition of Randy Moss at the time it was made, myself included. He looked completely washed up his last year in Oakland. Brady saved Moss - not the other way around.

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Why do we have to rehash this so much? We all know deep down in our brain's heart the one true answer. Going into this game neutral parties weren't even talking about Manning and Brady they were talking about the talent differential, about how Mannings weapons were unstoppable, about how their defense was so much better than the Pats - the Broncos just got shat on by the world beaters Brandon Lafell, Julian Edelman and Danny 'White Chocolate' Amendola and three rookie olinemen.

They've been saying the same things for years, Manning has always had so much more talent around him and the Brady led Pats just win games. Nothing has changed.

Yeah, that Rob Gronkowski is a no talent ### clown amirite?

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Peyton injured, Colts go from 10-6 to 2-14.

Brady injured, Patriots go from 16-0 to 11-5.

Peyton injured, Colts go from 10-6 to 2-14 with a stable of scrub fill-in QBs, go 11-5 a year later adding a rookie QB.

Brady injured, Pats go from 16-0 to 11-5 with a QB that still plays in the NFL and actually made it to the Probowl on teams that weren't the Patriots.

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It's a pretty simple answer.

Brady, and it's not even close. Stats do matter, but wins matter more.

13 of Manning's regular season 75 losses were his rookie year on a terrible team. In fact, 32 of those losses were in his first 4 years on a Colts's team with a lousy defense (average of #22 in points allowed).

Since then he's had a winning percentage of 76.6% (141-43) compared to Brady's career of 77.5% (155-45) with vastly better defenses - the Patriots under Brady never ranked lower than #17 in points allowed. 10 times Brady had a top 10 defense - Peyton only 6 (5 with the Colts and 1 with the Broncos).

Brady is lucky as hell to have been drafted by Belichick's Patriots.

brady never threw more than 14 picks in a season his entire career

in manning's first 3 years in the league he averaged 19 picks/year, and was a pick off the league leader in his 2nd year, chucking 23 of them.

do you think maybe the other team might score more when you continually feed them the ball?

all I've been hearing since manning went to denver is what a great defense he's got -- what's his excuse now?

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Why do we have to rehash this so much? We all know deep down in our brain's heart the one true answer. Going into this game neutral parties weren't even talking about Manning and Brady they were talking about the talent differential, about how Mannings weapons were unstoppable, about how their defense was so much better than the Pats - the Broncos just got shat on by the world beaters Brandon Lafell, Julian Edelman and Danny 'White Chocolate' Amendola and three rookie olinemen.

They've been saying the same things for years, Manning has always had so much more talent around him and the Brady led Pats just win games. Nothing has changed.

Yeah, that Rob Gronkowski is a no talent ### clown amirite?

and where was gronk in the playoffs last year when brady was throwing to austin collie, and manning was throwing to demaryius, julius thomas, decker, and welker?

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Why do we have to rehash this so much? We all know deep down in our brain's heart the one true answer. Going into this game neutral parties weren't even talking about Manning and Brady they were talking about the talent differential, about how Mannings weapons were unstoppable, about how their defense was so much better than the Pats - the Broncos just got shat on by the world beaters Brandon Lafell, Julian Edelman and Danny 'White Chocolate' Amendola and three rookie olinemen.

They've been saying the same things for years, Manning has always had so much more talent around him and the Brady led Pats just win games. Nothing has changed.

Yeah, that Rob Gronkowski is a no talent ### clown amirite?

and where was gronk in the playoffs last year when brady was throwing to austin collie, and manning was throwing to demaryius, julius thomas, decker, and welker?

and Denver beat the crap out of NE that game, no?

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Peyton injured, Colts go from 10-6 to 2-14.

Brady injured, Patriots go from 16-0 to 11-5.

Colts 1997: 3-13

Colts 1998: 3-13

Patriots 2000: 5-11

Patriots 2001 with Bledsoe: 0-2

Patriots 2001 with Brady: 11-3 rest of season, win Superbowl

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