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Who's better, Manning or Brady?

Who's the better quarterback?  

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To suggest that Brady would be as successful in a different system and different coach is a ####### joke.

Well the difference between what you're talking about, and what I'm talking about is that you can watch any Pats game to see what I'm talking about. Whereas yours is something no one could ever prove...

Edited by Run It Up

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what do these QBs have in common...

Wilson

Flacco

E.Manning

Big Ben

Brady

Dilfer

R.Johnson

This is 11/14 superbowl winning QBs.

They all are complimented with a strong run game and great defense.

When Brady was winning SBs he had a great run game and an elite defense.

Rodgers, Brees and Manning are the only QBs to break that trend.

When Brady was not surrounded by a strong run game and great defense he has 0 titles. Oh, and no spygate for what its worth.

Ro

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Guest General Tso

Gronk has played in 59 games. Moss played in 37 games with Brady. Brady has played in 202 games. Manning consistently had great targets to throw to. I don't see how anyone can make a compelling case that the receiving talent for Manning has been inferior to what Brady had to work with. In fact, I would say Manning had a pretty decent advantage over the years.

Manning has never had anyone near those levels of Gronk and Moss. Harrison/Wayne/Garcon/DT are all good WRs that Peyton has made look elite. Clark/Collie/Sanders/Stokley/Tamme etc are all basically average or below average guys who were lucky to play with Peyton

Ridiculous. Harrison and Wayne are Hall of Famers. Certainly a lot of that is due to Manning, but let's be real.... Manning had always had better offensive talent around him. Not sure I have ever heard someone argue otherwise.

Of course Manning made those guys. That is why Wayne and Garçon went out of the league shortly after Peyton left, Harrison never did a thing before Manning got there and DT was just another first round bust that even the great Tebow couldn't make look good before Manning got there.

Uh, Garcon is still playing dude. And he caught 113 passes last year. For the ####### Redskins!

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I think we can all agree that Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Rob Gronkowski, and Demaryius Thomas would all have been/will be great regardless of their qb.

However, it is not a coincidence that E Sanders already has his career high in yards thru 8 games with Manning as his qb. I think we can confidently say Eric Decker will look back at 2012 and 2013 as the 2 best years of his career. In his 1st 2 years, Julius Thomas was a no name with 1 total catch. Now he has 1100 yards 24 TD thru 1.5 years with Manning. Brandon Stokely had a 1000 yd, 10 TD season. Dallas Clark had a 1100 yard, 10 TD season.

Randy Moss before and after Tom Brady:

2006 - 13 games. 42 rec. 553 yds. 3 TD's. 42.5 ypg

2007 - 16 games. 98 rec. 1,493 yds. 23 TD's. 93.3 ypg

LOL

Randy Moss before Tom Brady - 138 games, 676 rec, 10,700 yards, 101 TD, 77.54 ypg

Yeah, and how was is career progressing? In the 3 years before coming to New England you know what Moss's best year was? A whopping 60 receptions. In the 4 years prior his TD numbers were progressing as follows - 17, 13, 8, 3.

I am refuting the notion that Moss was at the top of his game when Brady got ahold of him. Nothing could be further from the truth. Moss was not a young stud. He was entering his 10th season and most pundits thought he was cooked. Brady and Belichik resurrected him.

He had 1000 and 8 with a washed up Kerry Collins in 2005. Do you have any idea who the Raiders trotted out at qb in 2006?

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Ive watched NE games. Its pick plays, rubs, push-offs, bubble screens, and yards after the catch. Oh, an occasional deep ball which he misses on often these days.

Look at yards per throw from the line of scrimmage for Brady. Their offense lives off of picks and yards after the catch.

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Ive watched NE games. Its pick plays, rubs, push-offs, bubble screens, and yards after the catch. Oh, an occasional deep ball which he misses on often these days.

Look at yards per throw from the line of scrimmage for Brady. Their offense lives off of picks and yards after the catch.

I've heard the same be said about Manning.

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Ive watched NE games. Its pick plays, rubs, push-offs, bubble screens, and yards after the catch. Oh, an occasional deep ball which he misses on often these days.

Look at yards per throw from the line of scrimmage for Brady. Their offense lives off of picks and yards after the catch.

What argument are you trying to make here? That exploiting one teams defense (like Manning and Brady) is somehow less impressive than Favreing a ball down the field blindfolded?

I've heard the same be said about Manning.

Cause both of their offenses play the same way...

Edited by Run It Up

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Oh, and no spygate for what its worth.

How to immediately make your comments dismissible.

How this is not a factor to you just shows how blind you are.

You don't punish a team that severe if it made NO difference.

And burn the tapes??? How does that not seem like there was more to hide than what the public knows??

I know NE has had success since spygate, playing against what is a joke of a division, but when it comes to it look at their playoff record since and the fact that they have the same amount of SBs since as the BILLS!

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Oh, and no spygate for what its worth.

How to immediately make your comments dismissible.

How this is not a factor to you just shows how blind you are.

You don't punish a team that severe if it made NO difference.

And burn the tapes??? How does that not seem like there was more to hide than what the public knows??

I know NE has had success since spygate, playing against what is a joke of a division, but when it comes to it look at their playoff record since and the fact that they have the same amount of SBs since as the BILLS!

Best playoff record, best non-divisional record, pick a team record - probably have the best.

I love how every year people pretend the AFC east is just complete garbage. Like the AFC south are somehow filled with world beaters.

Pretend like the NFL doesn't change every year, a few years ago the NFC west division winner had a 7-9 record, today they have 4 of the top 16 teams in the league imo.

Edited by Run It Up

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Gronk has played in 59 games. Moss played in 37 games with Brady. Brady has played in 202 games. Manning consistently had great targets to throw to. I don't see how anyone can make a compelling case that the receiving talent for Manning has been inferior to what Brady had to work with. In fact, I would say Manning had a pretty decent advantage over the years.

Manning has never had anyone near those levels of Gronk and Moss. Harrison/Wayne/Garcon/DT are all good WRs that Peyton has made look elite. Clark/Collie/Sanders/Stokley/Tamme etc are all basically average or below average guys who were lucky to play with Peyton

Ridiculous. Harrison and Wayne are Hall of Famers. Certainly a lot of that is due to Manning, but let's be real.... Manning had always had better offensive talent around him. Not sure I have ever heard someone argue otherwise.
Of course Manning made those guys. That is why Wayne and Garçon went out of the league shortly after Peyton left, Harrison never did a thing before Manning got there and DT was just another first round bust that even the great Tebow couldn't make look good before Manning got there.
Uh, Garcon is still playing dude. And he caught 113 passes last year. For the ####### Redskins!

Sarcasm.

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Guest General Tso

I think we can all agree that Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Rob Gronkowski, and Demaryius Thomas would all have been/will be great regardless of their qb.

However, it is not a coincidence that E Sanders already has his career high in yards thru 8 games with Manning as his qb. I think we can confidently say Eric Decker will look back at 2012 and 2013 as the 2 best years of his career. In his 1st 2 years, Julius Thomas was a no name with 1 total catch. Now he has 1100 yards 24 TD thru 1.5 years with Manning. Brandon Stokely had a 1000 yd, 10 TD season. Dallas Clark had a 1100 yard, 10 TD season.

Randy Moss before and after Tom Brady:

2006 - 13 games. 42 rec. 553 yds. 3 TD's. 42.5 ypg

2007 - 16 games. 98 rec. 1,493 yds. 23 TD's. 93.3 ypg

LOL

Randy Moss before Tom Brady - 138 games, 676 rec, 10,700 yards, 101 TD, 77.54 ypg

Yeah, and how was is career progressing? In the 3 years before coming to New England you know what Moss's best year was? A whopping 60 receptions. In the 4 years prior his TD numbers were progressing as follows - 17, 13, 8, 3.

I am refuting the notion that Moss was at the top of his game when Brady got ahold of him. Nothing could be further from the truth. Moss was not a young stud. He was entering his 10th season and most pundits thought he was cooked. Brady and Belichik resurrected him.

He had 1000 and 8 with a washed up Kerry Collins in 2005. Do you have any idea who the Raiders trotted out at qb in 2006?
So, 62 yards per game, and 1 touchdown every 2 weeks, is.... What, good?

If you can't at least acknowledged the difference Brady made at that point in Randy Moss's career, then I can't help you. I watched every second of that 2007 season and Randy Moss was like a kid in a candy shop. Every time he broke open he'd turn around to see a perfectly placed ball right in his lap. Remember that pass to win the game against the Giants in week 17? That was pretty good wasn't it. It was a whole season of those passes, which led to the best season a WR has ever had. There has never been an example of a Quarterback single-handedly changing the fortunes of a WR. Ever.

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what do these QBs have in common...

Wilson

Flacco

E.Manning

Big Ben

Brady

Dilfer

R.Johnson

This is 11/14 superbowl winning QBs.

They all are complimented with a strong run game and great defense.

When Brady was winning SBs he had a great run game and an elite defense.

Rodgers, Brees and Manning are the only QBs to break that trend.

When Brady was not surrounded by a strong run game and great defense he has 0 titles. Oh, and no spygate for what its worth.

Ro

You seem to be suffering from amnesia.

Super Bowl Bowl XLI

26/38 239 yards passing

42-191 rushing

Dom Rhodes had 113 yards, Joseph Addai 77 yards

Addai added 10 catches for 66 yards

Now those are the stats, and I remember well Addai carried them in the Divisional Round (140+ yards rushing) and had the game winning TD in the AFCCG.

Now you're trying your hand at revisionist history and saying Peyton is one of three QBs in this millennium to win a SB ring without a strong run game?

Wanna try again?

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I think we can all agree that Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Rob Gronkowski, and Demaryius Thomas would all have been/will be great regardless of their qb.

However, it is not a coincidence that E Sanders already has his career high in yards thru 8 games with Manning as his qb. I think we can confidently say Eric Decker will look back at 2012 and 2013 as the 2 best years of his career. In his 1st 2 years, Julius Thomas was a no name with 1 total catch. Now he has 1100 yards 24 TD thru 1.5 years with Manning. Brandon Stokely had a 1000 yd, 10 TD season. Dallas Clark had a 1100 yard, 10 TD season.

Randy Moss before and after Tom Brady:

2006 - 13 games. 42 rec. 553 yds. 3 TD's. 42.5 ypg

2007 - 16 games. 98 rec. 1,493 yds. 23 TD's. 93.3 ypg

LOL

Randy Moss before Tom Brady - 138 games, 676 rec, 10,700 yards, 101 TD, 77.54 ypg

Yeah, and how was is career progressing? In the 3 years before coming to New England you know what Moss's best year was? A whopping 60 receptions. In the 4 years prior his TD numbers were progressing as follows - 17, 13, 8, 3.

I am refuting the notion that Moss was at the top of his game when Brady got ahold of him. Nothing could be further from the truth. Moss was not a young stud. He was entering his 10th season and most pundits thought he was cooked. Brady and Belichik resurrected him.

He had 1000 and 8 with a washed up Kerry Collins in 2005. Do you have any idea who the Raiders trotted out at qb in 2006?
So, 62 yards per game, and 1 touchdown every 2 weeks, is.... What, good?

If you can't at least acknowledged the difference Brady made at that point in Randy Moss's career, then I can't help you. I watched every second of that 2007 season and Randy Moss was like a kid in a candy shop. Every time he broke open he'd turn around to see a perfectly placed ball right in his lap. Remember that pass to win the game against the Giants in week 17? That was pretty good wasn't it. It was a whole season of those passes, which led to the best season a WR has ever had. There has never been an example of a Quarterback single-handedly changing the fortunes of a WR. Ever.

Well, it was better than what any Patriot WR did in 2004 or 2005 or 2006 so yeah, I would say that is good. Yeah, Brady was a welcome change for Moss. Let's not act like it wasn't a 2 way street there.

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what do these QBs have in common...

Wilson

Flacco

E.Manning

Big Ben

Brady

Dilfer

R.Johnson

This is 11/14 superbowl winning QBs.

They all are complimented with a strong run game and great defense.

When Brady was winning SBs he had a great run game and an elite defense.

Rodgers, Brees and Manning are the only QBs to break that trend.

When Brady was not surrounded by a strong run game and great defense he has 0 titles. Oh, and no spygate for what its worth.

Ro

I seem to remember Starks having a very good post season that year Green Bay won.

Rhodes and Addai played very well and their defense played awesome after getting Bob Sanders back and McFarland in a trade. Had they not, the Colts wouldn't even have made it out of the first round that year

I don't remember the Saints ground game that year, but there defense forced a ton of turnovers and returned a lot of then too.

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what do these QBs have in common...

Wilson

Flacco

E.Manning

Big Ben

Brady

Dilfer

R.Johnson

This is 11/14 superbowl winning QBs.

They all are complimented with a strong run game and great defense.

When Brady was winning SBs he had a great run game and an elite defense.

Rodgers, Brees and Manning are the only QBs to break that trend.

When Brady was not surrounded by a strong run game and great defense he has 0 titles. Oh, and no spygate for what its worth.

Ro

You seem to be suffering from amnesia.

Super Bowl Bowl XLI

26/38 239 yards passing

42-191 rushing

Dom Rhodes had 113 yards, Joseph Addai 77 yards

Addai added 10 catches for 66 yards

Now those are the stats, and I remember well Addai carried them in the Divisional Round (140+ yards rushing) and had the game winning TD in the AFCCG.

Now you're trying your hand at revisionist history and saying Peyton is one of three QBs in this millennium to win a SB ring without a strong run game?

Wanna try again?

Fair enough. Just further proves my point that SB wins does not come with great QB play. It comes with defense and a balanced offense. So to count SB wins as a measuring stick for QB play is silly.

Bradys most impressive years as a QB have been later in his career. He was less impressive in his early years obviously. But look at where that got him in rings

Brady before 2004: Solid QB play 3 rings

Brady after 2004: Way more impressive QB play 0 rings

So SBs don't seem to be an indication of how great a QB is because Im pretty sure everyone on this site would take the QB Brady was after 2004, and that better QB play had led to 3 less rings

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In Foxboro, Brady is better and in Denver, Manning is better. It is ironic, the NFL seems to schedule the regular season games Brady vs. Manning in Foxboro?

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In Foxboro, Brady is better and in Denver, Manning is better. It is ironic, the NFL seems to schedule the regular season games Brady vs. Manning in Foxboro?

It would be ironic (or more accurately, "coincidental") if the NFL didn't follow a strict scheduling formula. Teams know their future opponents and home/away sites, with the exception of two teams, all the way through at least 2019.

If the Pats and Broncos play either of the next two seasons, it will be in Denver. They will play in Denver in 2017. Just so happened the formula called for the games to be at the designated AFC East opponent in 2012-13 and at NE this season.

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Guest General Tso

I think we can all agree that Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Rob Gronkowski, and Demaryius Thomas would all have been/will be great regardless of their qb.

However, it is not a coincidence that E Sanders already has his career high in yards thru 8 games with Manning as his qb. I think we can confidently say Eric Decker will look back at 2012 and 2013 as the 2 best years of his career. In his 1st 2 years, Julius Thomas was a no name with 1 total catch. Now he has 1100 yards 24 TD thru 1.5 years with Manning. Brandon Stokely had a 1000 yd, 10 TD season. Dallas Clark had a 1100 yard, 10 TD season.

Randy Moss before and after Tom Brady:

2006 - 13 games. 42 rec. 553 yds. 3 TD's. 42.5 ypg

2007 - 16 games. 98 rec. 1,493 yds. 23 TD's. 93.3 ypg

LOL

Randy Moss before Tom Brady - 138 games, 676 rec, 10,700 yards, 101 TD, 77.54 ypg

Yeah, and how was is career progressing? In the 3 years before coming to New England you know what Moss's best year was? A whopping 60 receptions. In the 4 years prior his TD numbers were progressing as follows - 17, 13, 8, 3.

I am refuting the notion that Moss was at the top of his game when Brady got ahold of him. Nothing could be further from the truth. Moss was not a young stud. He was entering his 10th season and most pundits thought he was cooked. Brady and Belichik resurrected him.

He had 1000 and 8 with a washed up Kerry Collins in 2005. Do you have any idea who the Raiders trotted out at qb in 2006?
So, 62 yards per game, and 1 touchdown every 2 weeks, is.... What, good?

If you can't at least acknowledged the difference Brady made at that point in Randy Moss's career, then I can't help you. I watched every second of that 2007 season and Randy Moss was like a kid in a candy shop. Every time he broke open he'd turn around to see a perfectly placed ball right in his lap. Remember that pass to win the game against the Giants in week 17? That was pretty good wasn't it. It was a whole season of those passes, which led to the best season a WR has ever had. There has never been an example of a Quarterback single-handedly changing the fortunes of a WR. Ever.

Well, it was better than what any Patriot WR did in 2004 or 2005 or 2006 so yeah, I would say that is good. Yeah, Brady was a welcome change for Moss. Let's not act like it wasn't a 2 way street there.
Look, I have no preference either way in this debate. I like both QB's. but it's just not accurate to say that Brady has had better weapons to work with. His very best arsenal was anchored by Randy Moss, during years 10-12 of a career that had been spiralling downward, while Manning had the best years of two Hall of Fame WR's in Harrison and Wayne. There are great arguments to make pointing to Manning being the better QB, but the "Brady had better weapons" slant isn't one of them. It's actually an argument that highlights Brady's greatness, because he has had to make meatloaf most of his career.

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I used to think Brady for much the same argument as Bloom made in 2005. But now, in light of recent revelations about Spygate, I wonder how much of Brady's coolness was because he had a coach in his ear surveying the field for him and analyzing defensive formations. There is no way to know for sure and the league for some reason destroyed the evidence. But I believe it was widespread, and it was a huge advantage. This has to factor or at least be an asterix in any consideration of Brady and Bellichick.

Revelation, lmfao...

This was the story. A new book is coming out that brings to light things I never heard--such as Brady having a special helmet with a microphone from the coaches. Like I said, easy to "read" the defense if someone else is doing it for you from a better vantage point and knowing what the defense is because you heard them call it with your spying. I know NE fans don't want to hear this, but the rest of us can't ignore these kinds of considerations. Is it a coincidence they haven't won a SB since?

http://nypost.com/2014/10/12/they-are-cheaters-spygate-the-nfl-scandal-that-started-it-all/

Edited by az_prof

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To suggest that Brady would be as successful in a different system and different coach is a ####### joke.

Manning has had MULTIPLE coaching changes and 2 different teams. And he took them both to a superbowl.

he wouldn't be as successful without Belichick. I'm quite sure of that.

That doesn't mean he would be Trent Dilfer though - he would still be an elite QB, he just wouldn't have the all time winningest record.

First, to the op, the "system" is Brady and to suggest otherwise is just silly, same with Manning; the "system" works because you have hof qbs running them. FTR, Manning had the same OC ("system") for virtually his entire career, a luxury brady has not enjoyed.

If by "successful" you mean winning games, probably not. But the knife cuts both ways, put manning outdoors in the northeast on a defensive centric team and even if he could, there is no way he even gets the opportunity to pile up his regular season stats every year. BB wouldn't let him throw an obscene 28 Ints his 1st year. Put Brady in a dome on an offensive minded team and he has obviously proven he can put up huge offensive numbers.

So yes, Brady benefited earlier in his career (playoff wins) playing for more defensive oriented teams, just like manning has benefited (regular season stats) from playing in a dome on offensive minded teams.

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I think we can all agree that Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Rob Gronkowski, and Demaryius Thomas would all have been/will be great regardless of their qb.

However, it is not a coincidence that E Sanders already has his career high in yards thru 8 games with Manning as his qb. I think we can confidently say Eric Decker will look back at 2012 and 2013 as the 2 best years of his career. In his 1st 2 years, Julius Thomas was a no name with 1 total catch. Now he has 1100 yards 24 TD thru 1.5 years with Manning. Brandon Stokely had a 1000 yd, 10 TD season. Dallas Clark had a 1100 yard, 10 TD season.

Randy Moss before and after Tom Brady:

2006 - 13 games. 42 rec. 553 yds. 3 TD's. 42.5 ypg

2007 - 16 games. 98 rec. 1,493 yds. 23 TD's. 93.3 ypg

LOL

Randy Moss before Tom Brady - 138 games, 676 rec, 10,700 yards, 101 TD, 77.54 ypg

Yeah, and how was is career progressing? In the 3 years before coming to New England you know what Moss's best year was? A whopping 60 receptions. In the 4 years prior his TD numbers were progressing as follows - 17, 13, 8, 3.

I am refuting the notion that Moss was at the top of his game when Brady got ahold of him. Nothing could be further from the truth. Moss was not a young stud. He was entering his 10th season and most pundits thought he was cooked. Brady and Belichik resurrected him.

He had 1000 and 8 with a washed up Kerry Collins in 2005. Do you have any idea who the Raiders trotted out at qb in 2006?
So, 62 yards per game, and 1 touchdown every 2 weeks, is.... What, good?

If you can't at least acknowledged the difference Brady made at that point in Randy Moss's career, then I can't help you. I watched every second of that 2007 season and Randy Moss was like a kid in a candy shop. Every time he broke open he'd turn around to see a perfectly placed ball right in his lap. Remember that pass to win the game against the Giants in week 17? That was pretty good wasn't it. It was a whole season of those passes, which led to the best season a WR has ever had. There has never been an example of a Quarterback single-handedly changing the fortunes of a WR. Ever.

Well, it was better than what any Patriot WR did in 2004 or 2005 or 2006 so yeah, I would say that is good. Yeah, Brady was a welcome change for Moss. Let's not act like it wasn't a 2 way street there.
Look, I have no preference either way in this debate. I like both QB's. but it's just not accurate to say that Brady has had better weapons to work with. His very best arsenal was anchored by Randy Moss, during years 10-12 of a career that had been spiralling downward, while Manning had the best years of two Hall of Fame WR's in Harrison and Wayne. There are great arguments to make pointing to Manning being the better QB, but the "Brady had better weapons" slant isn't one of them. It's actually an argument that highlights Brady's greatness, because he has had to make meatloaf most of his career.

I don't think I ever made the argument Brady had better weapons overall. I think they both have had some good, some bleh and some great weapons. Manning's have been more consistently the same guys.

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Guest General Tso

I used to think Brady for much the same argument as Bloom made in 2005. But now, in light of recent revelations about Spygate, I wonder how much of Brady's coolness was because he had a coach in his ear surveying the field for him and analyzing defensive formations. There is no way to know for sure and the league for some reason destroyed the evidence. But I believe it was widespread, and it was a huge advantage. This has to factor or at least be an asterix in any consideration of Brady and Bellichick.

Revelation, lmfao...

This was the story. A new book is coming out that brings to light things I never heard--such as Brady having a special helmet with a microphone from the coaches. Like I said, easy to "read" the defense if someone else is doing it for you from a better vantage point and knowing what the defense is because you heard them call it with your spying. I know NE fans don't want to hear this, but the rest of us can't ignore these kinds of considerations. Is it a coincidence they haven't won a SB since?

http://nypost.com/2014/10/12/they-are-cheaters-spygate-the-nfl-scandal-that-started-it-all/

I'm normally irked that so many people in this country will believe any type of conspiracy BS like this, nevermind a guy who goes by the name Arizona Professor. It's become a cottage industry to prey on the naivety of the American public. But in this case it's pretty comical. Check out the actual words in the link to this journalistic masterpiece.

nypost.com/2014/10/12/they-are-cheaters-spygate-the-nfl-scandal-that-started-it-all

Edited by General Tso

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When demaryius Thomas breaks a screen pass for 80 yards, at least some of that yardage belongs to Thomas. That's why Tebow beat the steelers.

...

to be historically accurate, it wasn't a screen pass that DT took 80 yards vs Pitt. It was a simple deep slant. It worked because the Steelers were in cover-0, selling out to stop Tebow's zone read. It wasn't a case of DT being a transcendantal talent as he hadn't developed into the player he is today.

ha. I didn't even mean that. I was just giving a generic demaryius example and added the Tebow bit after. Good memory though and well played sir.

My point want even that Thomas is a transcendantal talent. I'm not sure he is. I'm certain that a non trivial portion of his fantasy success is due to manning, just like Wayne had 1355 yards with manning, dropped under 1k with painter, and then had 1355 again in luck's rookie year.

Now look at the guys Brady works with. Troy brown, David patten, Deion branch all had by far their best seasons with Brady. Brandon Lafell is on pace to do the same. Reche Caldwell almost went to a superbowl with Brady. Moss set anall time nfl record with Brady... in their first year together. While Brady also set individual and team records. While working in Welker, too.

And that shouldn't be understated. Manning was rusty his first few weeks in Denver, and people were saying he might be done, his arm strength was gone, and so on. The next year they added another good receiver and set nfl records.

So i really don't think it's up for debate that good receivers lead to good qb numbers, or that time together is important as well. Brady had been breaking in new starting receivers almost every year since he's been in the league. That's undoubtedly impacted his numbers. Manning not only has had better targets, he's stayed with the same offensive system and many of the same players year after year. The Colts had a philosophy of keeping their own players. The Broncos have a philosophy of getting whatever manning needs. The patriots have a philosophy that everyone's replaceable, and Bradys success in spite of turnover at offensive coordinator, receiver, tight end, and running back is impressive on its face.

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Brady does great with so much less talent around him..Plays well in all weather. IMO, he's the better QB

Edited by theplayer11

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It's just comical to me that people still think Manning is a better QB. It's been proven over and over again that Brady is indeed better. Who wins the big games? Brady. Who has more Super Bowl wins? Brady. Who has the most playoff losses as a QB? Manning. Who has the most playoff wins? Brady. You can sit here and argue about stats all day long, but at the end of the day it's pretty obvious the overall better QB is Brady. At least in Brady's two SB losses to the Giants he didn't fold and get crushed after the first play of the game. I just don't see how anyone can think Manning is a better QB when all he does is choke when it means the most.

By this awful logic, Trent Dilfer was a better QB than Dan Marino. :mellow:

How so? Please explain why it's such an awful logic. So Manning has played 3 more years than Brady and has more TDs and more yards, but a worse playoff record, constantly chokes in big games, and only one SB ring and that somehow makes him better?? ...lol

In the age of the fantasy world, too many just look at the raw stats. Manning had some good stats yesterday...but the scoreboard is what matters.

Both great QB's, but Brady has the intangibles that sets him apart. Switch QBs yesterday with Brady Qbing Denver, any doubt who wins the game?

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In the age of the fantasy world, too many just look at the raw stats. Manning had some good stats yesterday...but the scoreboard is what matters.

Both great QB's, but Brady has the intangibles that sets him apart. Switch QBs yesterday with Brady Qbing Denver, any doubt who wins the game?

not a doubt in my mind that the QB playing for Belichick in Foxboro wins yesterdays game. Edited by moleculo

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I love how people compare Brady vs Manning and call Manning his biotch.

Yeah, I am thinking whoever says that obviously didn't see last year's AFCCG. Neither is the other's beotch. The QB with the better team usually wins, especially when they are at home.

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FTR, yay, Brady won the last game so I guess that makes him the best..................

There both great.

If one of them can manage to win another SB or two (or even get to another 1 or 2) then maybe something can definitively be settled (not bloody likely), for now it is more lather, rinse, repeat.......

Kind of like Marino/Montana if Marino had won a Super Bowl. I think Peyton wins another ring he's the guy. Otherwise, just a matter of opinion. Brady wins another that might cement it too.
Fantasy wise it's Manning...Real life it's this. Personally I think Manning is better and Brady is more of a system QB that has great Coaching. As of now you can argue either way but I think Manning gets a ring this year and cements himself as the best QB of this generation and arguably the best ever. If this game was played in Denver I think things would have been different.

This line gets me every time. :lmao:

Which system is that? The run heavy short pass system of the early 2000s? The move the ball any way possible system of the Doug Gabriel/Reche Caldwell era? The vertical threat Moss era? The 2 TE system with Gronk & the killer? Or the current all new receivers "system"?

The "Brady is a system QB" is one of the most laughable characterizations of Brady's career. New England's personnel philosophy has created skill position groupings that have VERY different skill sets from year to year. The offense morphs to utilize the available skillset of the players they have. The only system I see in NE is Brady being capable of shifting his offensive system to fit the personnel as well as any QB of the modern era.

Some of that is coaching, and some of it is Brady's ability execute different offensive schemes at a high level. But to put Brady's success on the NE system is, IMO, getting it backwards. NE can manage their personnel decisions and bring in the types of players they do because they have a QB than can make it work.

:goodposting:

I can't recall a QB that has been more versatile in terms of playing in different systems, and Brady has excelled at all of them. As for giving BB credit, lets not forget that Bill coached 5 years at Cleveland, had a losing overall record, and only had 1 winning season out of 5. Manning seems like the type of player that gets smaller as the moment gets bigger. There are several QBs I would take over Manning to win a big game. Peyton's super bowl playoff run was largely won by his defense as Manning threw 3 TDs and 7 INTs in the 2006s playoffs, resulting in his only super bowl win.

Yes and yes. Couple these facts with the reality that Manning had the luxury of having one offensive coordinator for the first thirteen years of his career and... Edited by Neofight

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I love how people compare Brady vs Manning and call Manning his biotch.

Because he is. It's pretty simple to see. Sounds like someone's just a little salty after yesterday's loss :)

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I used to think Brady for much the same argument as Bloom made in 2005. But now, in light of recent revelations about Spygate, I wonder how much of Brady's coolness was because he had a coach in his ear surveying the field for him and analyzing defensive formations. There is no way to know for sure and the league for some reason destroyed the evidence. But I believe it was widespread, and it was a huge advantage. This has to factor or at least be an asterix in any consideration of Brady and Bellichick.

Revelation, lmfao...
This was the story. A new book is coming out that brings to light things I never heard--such as Brady having a special helmet with a microphone from the coaches. Like I said, easy to "read" the defense if someone else is doing it for you from a better vantage point and knowing what the defense is because you heard them call it with your spying. I know NE fans don't want to hear this, but the rest of us can't ignore these kinds of considerations. Is it a coincidence they haven't won a SB since?

http://nypost.com/2014/10/12/they-are-cheaters-spygate-the-nfl-scandal-that-started-it-all/

I'm normally irked that so many people in this country will believe any type of conspiracy BS like this, nevermind a guy who goes by the name Arizona Professor. It's become a cottage industry to prey on the naivety of the American public. But in this case it's pretty comical. Check out the actual words in the link to this journalistic masterpiece.

nypost.com/2014/10/12/they-are-cheaters-spygate-the-nfl-scandal-that-started-it-all

So your "proof" is to label it a conspiracy 'theory' (ignoring the fact that the NFL investigated, fined the team, and destroyed the evidence...). Your argument is also to launch ad hominem attacks against me--nice. No actual rebuttal.

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I used to think Brady for much the same argument as Bloom made in 2005. But now, in light of recent revelations about Spygate, I wonder how much of Brady's coolness was because he had a coach in his ear surveying the field for him and analyzing defensive formations. There is no way to know for sure and the league for some reason destroyed the evidence. But I believe it was widespread, and it was a huge advantage. This has to factor or at least be an asterix in any consideration of Brady and Bellichick.

Revelation, lmfao...

This was the story. A new book is coming out that brings to light things I never heard--such as Brady having a special helmet with a microphone from the coaches. Like I said, easy to "read" the defense if someone else is doing it for you from a better vantage point and knowing what the defense is because you heard them call it with your spying. I know NE fans don't want to hear this, but the rest of us can't ignore these kinds of considerations. Is it a coincidence they haven't won a SB since?

http://nypost.com/2014/10/12/they-are-cheaters-spygate-the-nfl-scandal-that-started-it-all/

You just lost any and all credibility you had by posting this.

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what do these QBs have in common...

Wilson

Flacco

E.Manning

Big Ben

Brady

Dilfer

R.Johnson

This is 11/14 superbowl winning QBs.

They all are complimented with a strong run game and great defense.

When Brady was winning SBs he had a great run game and an elite defense.

Rodgers, Brees and Manning are the only QBs to break that trend.

When Brady was not surrounded by a strong run game and great defense he has 0 titles. Oh, and no spygate for what its worth.

Ro

In less than a year you've forgotten that Russell Willson and Percy Harvin combined for more rushing yardage than the Seahawk RB's in Super Bowl 48. Marshawn Lynch, for as great as he played last season, was anything but beastly against an excellent Broncos run D.

Wilson flat out balled in that game; Manning bawled.

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I used to think Brady for much the same argument as Bloom made in 2005. But now, in light of recent revelations about Spygate, I wonder how much of Brady's coolness was because he had a coach in his ear surveying the field for him and analyzing defensive formations. There is no way to know for sure and the league for some reason destroyed the evidence. But I believe it was widespread, and it was a huge advantage. This has to factor or at least be an asterix in any consideration of Brady and Bellichick.

Revelation, lmfao...

This was the story. A new book is coming out that brings to light things I never heard--such as Brady having a special helmet with a microphone from the coaches. Like I said, easy to "read" the defense if someone else is doing it for you from a better vantage point and knowing what the defense is because you heard them call it with your spying. I know NE fans don't want to hear this, but the rest of us can't ignore these kinds of considerations. Is it a coincidence they haven't won a SB since?

http://nypost.com/2014/10/12/they-are-cheaters-spygate-the-nfl-scandal-that-started-it-all/

You just lost any and all credibility you had by posting this.

You're the last person here that should be talking about credibility gained/lost in this thread.

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In the age of the fantasy world, too many just look at the raw stats. Manning had some good stats yesterday...but the scoreboard is what matters.

Both great QB's, but Brady has the intangibles that sets him apart. Switch QBs yesterday with Brady Qbing Denver, any doubt who wins the game?

not a doubt in my mind that the QB playing for Belichick in Foxboro wins yesterdays game.

Look BB is great hc, but his defs have not been dominant for a long, long time.

I am not saying if you switch qbs the broncos would have definitely won, but I don't understand the slam dunk mentality that its all BB and the qb doesn't matter. Its so dismissive of brady's strengths while overlooking mannings weakness's. I would also add that playing at home is an obvious advantage for either qb.

When you have pristine conditions, manning is as good or better than anyone at throwing the ball; however, when things aren't pristine he isn't as good or better than everyone else.

Manning doesn't play as well on the road (most don't) and he doesn't play as well outside in the elements, particularly when it is cold, windy etc. Now with his age and neck injury he doesn't (imho) have the same arm strength he used to have. Time will tell, but I think going forward if you put a good defense in front of him with those weather conditions you can expect similar results.

On the other side of the line, BB didn't carve up dens defense it was brady again playing well in the elements. Wasn't Dens defense considered to be better than NEs going into the game?

There are lots of little things like playing well outdoors, qb sneaking for key 1st downs (90 out of 95) etc, etc that don't show up in the "passing stats" but are big parts of why brady and NE just continue to win and win. So many don't see him game in and game out and don't realize\appreciate the little things he does that don't show up in the box score.

People can slide the blame\credit to BB, but the truth is there are things Brady does better than Manning and playing outdoors in bad weather is one of them.

Edited by NE_REVIVAL

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Manning makes the WR, not the other way around. Demaryius is great, but otherwise he has elevated the play of Den WR.

Not sure you can make this claim about Manning and not have it apply equally, if not moreso, to Brady.

Ok let's play with this assumption (that the qb makes the wr) a bit

Manning has played with 3 HoF-level WRs in Harrison, Wayne, and DT (I think it's pretty safe to assume Harrison and Wayne would NOT have accumulated so many incredible stats if they were in just an average offense, and DT has improved his route running so much in the past 3 years)

Brady has played with 1 who would have been at that level even without Brady. Welker is really the only guy who really became great with Brady, and Edelman last year

Wayne performed just fine without Manning. His first year with Luck was practically identical to his last year with Manning (he nearly broke 1K yards with Painter and others). Moss was considered washed up before Brady - his ADP that year was 42nd behind WRs like Javon Walker, Housh, Roy Williams, and Boldin. Welker was a nobody on in Miami, great in NE, and now playing back at Miami levels in Denver. Then there are guys like Branch who get huge contracts but don't do anything anywhere other than NE. i am just saying that if Manning makes the WR then so does Brady.

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When Brady was not surrounded by a strong run game and great defense he has 0 titles.

LOL. I guess we've entered the "just start making #### up" portion of the debate.

2001 - 24th ranked defense,13th ranked run game.

2003 - 7th ranked defense, 27th ranked run game.

2004 - 9th ranked defense, 7th ranked run game.

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I used to think Brady for much the same argument as Bloom made in 2005. But now, in light of recent revelations about Spygate, I wonder how much of Brady's coolness was because he had a coach in his ear surveying the field for him and analyzing defensive formations. There is no way to know for sure and the league for some reason destroyed the evidence. But I believe it was widespread, and it was a huge advantage. This has to factor or at least be an asterix in any consideration of Brady and Bellichick.

Revelation, lmfao...

This was the story. A new book is coming out that brings to light things I never heard--such as Brady having a special helmet with a microphone from the coaches. Like I said, easy to "read" the defense if someone else is doing it for you from a better vantage point and knowing what the defense is because you heard them call it with your spying. I know NE fans don't want to hear this, but the rest of us can't ignore these kinds of considerations. Is it a coincidence they haven't won a SB since?

http://nypost.com/2014/10/12/they-are-cheaters-spygate-the-nfl-scandal-that-started-it-all/

You just lost any and all credibility you had by posting this.

You're the last person here that should be talking about credibility gained/lost in this thread.

It's not my fault you're unwilling to believe the truth.

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One point of comparison is that when Brady went down, Matt Cassel led the team to 11-5

When Manning went down, they went from contender to 1-15 worst team in the NFL

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One point of comparison is that when Brady went down, Matt Cassel led the team to 11-5

When Manning went down, they went from contender to 1-15 worst team in the NFL

Read through the thread before you post something that's already been spouted off a million times. Cassel has been a successful QB outside of NE, so this logic is quite flawed.

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In the age of the fantasy world, too many just look at the raw stats. Manning had some good stats yesterday...but the scoreboard is what matters.

Both great QB's, but Brady has the intangibles that sets him apart. Switch QBs yesterday with Brady Qbing Denver, any doubt who wins the game?

not a doubt in my mind that the QB playing for Belichick in Foxboro wins yesterdays game.

Look BB is great hc, but his defs have not been dominant for a long, long time.

I am not saying if you switch qbs the broncos would have definitely won, but I don't understand the slam dunk mentality that its all BB and the qb doesn't matter. Its so dismissive of brady's strengths while overlooking mannings weakness's.

When you have pristine conditions, manning is as good or better than anyone at throwing the ball; however, when things aren't pristine he isn't as good or better than everyone else.

Manning doesn't play as well on the road (most don't) and he doesn't play as well outside in the elements, particularly when it is cold, windy etc. Now with his age and neck injury he doesn't (imho) have the same arm strength he used to have. Time will tell, but I think going forward if you put a decent defense in front of him with those weather conditions you can expect similar results.

On the other side of the line, BB didn't carve up dens defense it was brady again playing well in the elements. Wasn't Dens defense considered to be better than NEs going into the game?

There are lots of little things like playing well outdoors, qb sneaking for key 1st downs (90 out of 95) etc, etc that don't show up in the "passing stats" but are big parts of why brady and NE just continue to win and win. So many don't see him game in and game out and don't realize\appreciate the little things he does that don't show up in the box score.

People can slide the blame\credit to BB, but the truth is there are things Brady does better than Manning and playing outdoors in bad weather is one of them.

the whole "not play well in the cold" is overdone. The fact of the matter is for most of Mannings career, playing outdoors is a surrogate for "on the road" and in the cold is a surrogate for "on the road in the playoffs".

Mannings arm, by all reports, is actually stronger this year than it ever has been. This past off-season is the first time that Manning has ever gone in and lifted weights. he is fully recovered from the neck thing, and all of the rehab got him to a point where he is stronger than he was previously. It's all in the training camp chatter.

Broncos didn't lose this game because Manning struggles in the cold, or in Foxboro, or any of the simple narratives that places like bleacherreport like to push.

I firmly believe NE won because they were a better prepared team. Their defense was more physical, they disguised their defenses better, they created a lot of chaos, they stopped the run, and they did a fantastic job of pressuring Manning up the middle. Denver defense, on the other hand, left giant cushions for the WR's, they gave Gronk a free release for most of the game, they failed to collapse the pocket, and they did not do a good job of adapting.

Please don't misconstrue any of this as criticism of Brady. Bronco pass rush was actually pretty good and they got Brady throwing the ball before he was ready all game; Brady did a fantastic job of getting the ball out on time and finding the open man.

The difference in the game is that the NE defense played better than the Broncos offense, and the NE offense played better than the Bronco defense. It's more than Manning vs Brady. I don't think Manning played terribly - he could have done better, obviously, but he was under durress all game, throwing to WR's who couldn't get open and handing off to a running back going nowhere. If you want to find blame with Manning for this game, that's fine. one int was cearly his fault, the other, well, when you hit your WR in the chest, not sure you can really pin that on Manning.

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One point of comparison is that when Brady went down, Matt Cassel led the team to 11-5

When Manning went down, they went from contender to 1-15 worst team in the NFL

conversely, when manning took over a 3-13 team, he led them to a 3-13 record the following year. When Brady took over a 5-11 team, he led them to an 11-3 record the rest of the way and won a superbowl.

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One point of comparison is that when Brady went down, Matt Cassel led the team to 11-5

When Manning went down, they went from contender to 1-15 worst team in the NFL

Actually the Colts were 2-14 while sucking for Luck, and the "worst team in the NFL" was 11-5 the next year with a rookie QB.

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One point of comparison is that when Brady went down, Matt Cassel led the team to 11-5

When Manning went down, they went from contender to 1-15 worst team in the NFL

Actually the Colts were 2-14 while sucking for Luck, and the "worst team in the NFL" was 11-5 the next year with a rookie QB.

Luck's Colts were a completely different team, but the Colts went 2-14 with nearly the same roster they had the previous season. The Colts players were trying to win that year, it was Irsay who refused to get a decent QB so he could draft Luck.

Edited by cstu

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One point of comparison is that when Brady went down, Matt Cassel led the team to 11-5

When Manning went down, they went from contender to 1-15 worst team in the NFL

conversely, when manning took over a 3-13 team, he led them to a 3-13 record the following year. When Brady took over a 5-11 team, he led them to an 11-3 record the rest of the way and won a superbowl.

Manning was a rookie thrown to the wolves on a bad team. Brady settled into a team that forced 41 turnovers during his starts and only had to throw for 300 yards 1 time. He was under 200 yards 10 times that year. The Patriots were led by a great defense.

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In the age of the fantasy world, too many just look at the raw stats. Manning had some good stats yesterday...but the scoreboard is what matters.

Both great QB's, but Brady has the intangibles that sets him apart. Switch QBs yesterday with Brady Qbing Denver, any doubt who wins the game?

not a doubt in my mind that the QB playing for Belichick in Foxboro wins yesterdays game.

Look BB is great hc, but his defs have not been dominant for a long, long time.

I am not saying if you switch qbs the broncos would have definitely won, but I don't understand the slam dunk mentality that its all BB and the qb doesn't matter. Its so dismissive of brady's strengths while overlooking mannings weakness's.

When you have pristine conditions, manning is as good or better than anyone at throwing the ball; however, when things aren't pristine he isn't as good or better than everyone else.

Manning doesn't play as well on the road (most don't) and he doesn't play as well outside in the elements, particularly when it is cold, windy etc. Now with his age and neck injury he doesn't (imho) have the same arm strength he used to have. Time will tell, but I think going forward if you put a decent defense in front of him with those weather conditions you can expect similar results.

On the other side of the line, BB didn't carve up dens defense it was brady again playing well in the elements. Wasn't Dens defense considered to be better than NEs going into the game?

There are lots of little things like playing well outdoors, qb sneaking for key 1st downs (90 out of 95) etc, etc that don't show up in the "passing stats" but are big parts of why brady and NE just continue to win and win. So many don't see him game in and game out and don't realize\appreciate the little things he does that don't show up in the box score.

People can slide the blame\credit to BB, but the truth is there are things Brady does better than Manning and playing outdoors in bad weather is one of them.

the whole "not play well in the cold" is overdone. The fact of the matter is for most of Mannings career, playing outdoors is a surrogate for "on the road" and in the cold is a surrogate for "on the road in the playoffs".

Mannings arm, by all reports, is actually stronger this year than it ever has been. This past off-season is the first time that Manning has ever gone in and lifted weights. he is fully recovered from the neck thing, and all of the rehab got him to a point where he is stronger than he was previously. It's all in the training camp chatter.

Broncos didn't lose this game because Manning struggles in the cold, or in Foxboro, or any of the simple narratives that places like bleacherreport like to push.

I firmly believe NE won because they were a better prepared team. Their defense was more physical, they disguised their defenses better, they created a lot of chaos, they stopped the run, and they did a fantastic job of pressuring Manning up the middle. Denver defense, on the other hand, left giant cushions for the WR's, they gave Gronk a free release for most of the game, they failed to collapse the pocket, and they did not do a good job of adapting.

Please don't misconstrue any of this as criticism of Brady. Bronco pass rush was actually pretty good and they got Brady throwing the ball before he was ready all game; Brady did a fantastic job of getting the ball out on time and finding the open man.

The difference in the game is that the NE defense played better than the Broncos offense, and the NE offense played better than the Bronco defense. It's more than Manning vs Brady. I don't think Manning played terribly - he could have done better, obviously, but he was under durress all game, throwing to WR's who couldn't get open and handing off to a running back going nowhere. If you want to find blame with Manning for this game, that's fine. one int was cearly his fault, the other, well, when you hit your WR in the chest, not sure you can really pin that on Manning.

Hey Moleculo,

There are some good points there so let me address some of them. The not playing well in the cold thing might be overblown, but I didn't mean to say he can't play well in the cold, just that he is a timing and rhythm guy so cold and wind affect his game more than bradys (imho). If you compare his home\away qb rating with Bradys you will see a bigger drop off for manning on the road.

We will have to agree to disagree on "all reports" indicate that Mannings arm is as strong as ever; I don't think it is and I do not believe I am alone on that http://www.denverpost.com/kiszla/ci_26852171/broncos-peyton-manning-schooled-by-patriots-tom-brady

I agree that NE was the better prepared team, the NE O-line held up much better than I expected and I think playing at home gave them an advantage on both sides of the ball. I don't blame manning for losing the game, he doesn't play defense or special teams. However, his int was a big turning point in the game so he shouldn't be considered blameless.

Just don't agree that switching head coaches reverses the outcome, the players (all of them) on each side have a lot to do with the outcome and the venue is an advantage as well.

Imo, if they meet again this year it will be in Den (Den has yet another obscenely easy schedule this year and will likely be the #1 seed) and we will see what happens.

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